guest nights and singaround clubs

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:12 AM

"Don't want to go there again."
Don't remember that John, sorry - I do know that the threads I have been part of have never answered the question I have just asked.
It seems a fairly basic one to me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:11 AM

As Guitar skills improve, Folk becomes a very unsatisfactory form of music. It is dull,repetitive and offers the player limited ways to develop. I couldn't care less if people use crib sheets or not, as long as what comes out is well constructed, innovative, an musically stimulating, all too often with Folk it's not.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 10:31 AM

As one who sings unaccompanied, I have the same contempt, (expressed by many here against song sheets,) for guitars, banjos etc. that many people use as props for an inadequate voice. I've sat through many an evening of poor performances, of people spending an inordinate time tuning up and then singing at their instrument in utter disregard of their audience.
Maybe, rather than spending a lot of time learning words, people should spend all their practice time in learning to sight-read. That would, at least, increase their repertoire from a couple of dozen or a couple of hundred songs to an infinite number of songs.

Ged

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 10:19 AM

Ironically, this is happening at a time when the performance standards and technical skills of those young musicians and singers who do put in the work are extraordinarily high.

Agreed. The problem with the age gap in the folk scene is that there aren't many opportunities for older people to learn from and be inspired by younger ones - not the other way round.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 09:49 AM

Bounty Hound, singarounds are of course very different from concerts and I am not suggesting putting anyone under pressure. And on reflection I take your point about using singarounds to test-drive new pieces, although in general I think my point about trying to produce your best peformance regardless of the setup still applies.

'Performance' and 'audience' appear to be loaded words for you. To my mind, if you sing to someone else you are performing, and they are audience. When I use them they carry no additional connotations. However I still maintain that you should always try to achieve one's best, and I believe that even those who do it just for fun would still want to do that. I am not dictating what level their best should be.

When I began singing there were three clubs I visited regularly - two had regular guests with the occasional singers' night, the other was floorsingers-only but in a concert format. In all cases it was the norm that songbooks would not usually be used. No one was prevented from using them, but it was clear by example that you were expected to learn your material.   The standard was generally high, but anyone who wished to sing was encouraged to do so, and encouraged to improve (not all did). The incentive was to be invited to do a floorspot on a guest night. Perhaps this was too intimidating for some, but there was nevertheless a steady supply of people wishing to sing. These clubs gave me the opportunity to enjoy both singing myself and listening to others.

A large number of folk clubs now appear to be singarounds where relying on prompts has become the norm. No doubt this is attractive to novice singers lacking in confidence, and perhaps this is a good thing. But with no incentive for them to develop skills and build their confidence, the result is an evening of poor performances interrupted by people shuffling through their books to find their next song. Perhaps for you the social element makes up for this. I'm afraid for me they're a turn-off, and I'm not prepared to put myself through that for the chance to do a couple of songs myself.

Ironically, this is happening at a time when the performance standards and technical skills of those young musicians and singers who do put in the work are extraordinarily high.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 09:17 AM

Prompted by what Jim has just said, and a comment from Howard on another thread, I've often expressed concern about being too accepting and encouraging people to 'perform' who are not actually good enough.

As you will have gathered, I'm very much of the opinion that the 'singaround' situation should be inclusive and accepting, but I've seen numerous instances of people performing, (floor spots, open nights etc) who really have not yet mastered their craft, but are then told how wonderful they are, whereas perhaps there should be more honest feedback.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 09:15 AM

Jim - see last years thread "criticism at singarounds" Don't want to go there again.
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 08:53 AM

I do understand where you are coming from Howard, but it seems to me that there are a large number of people who would attend a singaround who are motivated purely by a love of folk song and the desire to sing, but have no aspirations to 'perform', and therefore welcome the chance to get together with a group of friends (or at least acquaintances) where they can do so in an un pressured environment.

From a personal point of view, I would never perform a song to a 'formal' audience that I was not 100% confident of,(although, like even the consummate professionals I'll make the odd slip and forget words!) but I would feel quite comfortable to 'test run' a song I was in the process learning, or drag out an old song that does not normally feature in my current repertoire at a singaround where I was known.

John

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 08:31 AM

" except in many cases the singer themselves."
If this is the case, you have to decide what you, as a club member or even just as a listener, do about it.
I believe that that below standard singing is one of the factors that helped empty the folk clubs - the decline in attendances was marked by a series of articles and letters in The Folk Review entitled, 'Crap Begets Crap' as far back as the eighties.   
There were many voices raised at the time claiming that if standards weren't maintained, clubs would suffer - whether it was this that caused it, suffer they did.
Now there seems to be open support for abandoning a lower level of expectation for anybody who sings in public.
I am totally at a loss to understand why people are prepared to encourage singers who haven't even mastered the most basic of skills to sing in public - it's been said enough hear - it isn't doing anybody any favours to encourage them to make an eejit of themselves in public, and it certainly does neither the club nor the listener any good.
Is it so wrong to expect a singer to come prepared?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 07:54 AM

"surely anybody knows when a singer is constantly out of tune" - except in many cases the singer themselves.
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 07:49 AM

Jim, i said
"A night at the Singers Club, Jim makes it sound like a bundle of laughs." I did not say I found her " a bundle of laughs", please stop misquoting me.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 07:47 AM

"Perhaps some of the more critical members on this thread could point us to online examples of their performances so that we can see what level we should be aspiring to."
Not in a position to do this, but I dn't feel it is necessary anyway - surely anybody knows when a singer is constantly out of tune or cannot sing without a crib sheet - it really is as simple as that, the ability to give forth articulately and in tune - nothing more
You might hope that all siners seek to improve themselves, but that is no part of this discussion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 07:35 AM

Bounty Hound, I entirely recognise your description of a singaround. I am not suggesting that people should be prevented from participating, and it is in the nature of these things that the standard will be varied.

The point I am trying to make is that by allowing people to rely on books and cribs they are not being allowed the opportunity to improve, to train their memory and to gain confidence. I'm sure that even among those who just want to sing for the fun of it there are many would like to get better, and to know that the applause they get is genuine and not just a sympathy vote.

I'm not suggesting being prescriptive, but by establishing that the norm should be to perform without prompts if possible, and by offering gentle encouragement and help towards that, many people will find that their singing improves and their confidence increases without them. Of course, you can't reach everyone, and I'm not expecting everyone to achieve professional standards, but everyone should be encouraged to achieve their best. A culture which accepts the lowest standards unquestioningly may be encouraging to novices singing in public for the first time but offers them no incentive to improve.

My other point is that when it comes to one's own turn to sing then the other participants in a singaround deserve the same level of performance from you that you would hope to deliver to a more formal audience. In both cases the singer should be aspiring to produce their best performance.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 07:10 AM

Perhaps some of the more critical members on this thread could point us to online examples of their performances so that we can see what level we should be aspiring to.
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 06:19 AM

"her lack of confidence might not have been helped by to quote you "
Her lack of confidence should never have been on display in the Singers Club in the first place and had she not been so persistent and those involved so concerned about hurting her feelings, it never would have - a far cry from your finding her like "a bundle of laughs" - not my idea of the way a club should be run, obvious yours.
It is understandably that singers should prepare themselves in advance to deal with her behaviour - some of them, having forewarned themselves, managed to minimise the damage on a could of occasions.
Her bad singing was not nervous - she was asked on a number of occasions would she like to join 'London Singer's Workshop' and she said she didn't feel she needed to - she was totally unaware that she couldn't sing, that's why she choe long songs and difficult tune - it was more a case of over-confidence, if anything - something several singers not a million miles away need to be aware of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 05:52 AM

I'm still very much of the opinion that people go to singarounds because they want to join in, and sing themselves, and the 'entertainment' is from being part of the crowd and taking part.

If I want just to sit and listen and be 'entertained' I would book tickets to see a performer who I know will achieve that for me.

I go to a singaround (as I did last night) with the expectation that the standard will be varied, as I know full well there will be people there to take part who have no illusions of wishing to be the polished professional performer, and just want to sing for the fun of it. I know there will be the old chap with failing memory who once was a good singer, but now relies on cheat sheets, I know there will be those who are still learning, and I know there will be those who are confident and well versed in performing skills.

In short, I see a singaround as 'self entertainment' and none of us are in a position to judge who can take part.

Are singarounds so very different in other parts of the country?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 05:09 AM

"Surprising enough, I found myself sorry for both her and the audience, her because she obviously not the full shilling and the audience because of their having their evening fucked up"
I am pleased to hear it, during your last post it occurred to me that her lack of confidence might not have been helped by to quote you "Things got so bad that residents would ask the doorkeeper "is C... in tonight?", before they steeled themselves to come in." it is in my opinion possible that she picked up on this atmosphere and it made her more nervous.
I understand that handling that kind of situation is not easy, but maybe the residents should not have had that attitude either?
To return to the original post, perhaps what is needed are workshops on performance and workshops on how to improve performance when using crib sheets.
I have seen the occasional good performance with crib sheets so it is possible, I prefer to see people not using crib sheets and performing well, but it has to be preferable to see a good performance with crib sheets rather than a bad performance with crib sheet.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 04:51 AM

So, let's sum up then:

My primary reason for trudging to my local singaround, on a cold, wet night in January, should be to listen to, and be nice to, 'beginners'(who often never seem to get any better)and the souless, tuneless recitations of lazy gits who can't be bothered to learn the words to their songs ... Oh, I'm sorry, that last bit should have read, "unfortunate people with impaired memories" - silly me!

Now me being a nasty, selfish piece of work, would prefer to be entertained, moved and inspired by my fellow singers - but that's just me! What am I like?! I also confess to an almost irresistible urge to punch the numpties described above, hard, in the face! Sadly, though, the dreary, bureaucratic, 'killjoy' society in which I live has rules (huh!) against that sort of thing (huh!).

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 06:35 PM

"I said your description made it sound like a bundle of laughs. "
Surprising enough, I found myself sorry for both her and the audience, her because she obviously not the full shilling and the audience because of their having their evening fucked up - but there again, I'm not a professional folk singer and don't understand the subtleties of entertaining an audience!
The Singers Club was either the first or the second established folk clubs (depending o whether you count the sessions run with Alan Lomax at The Theatre Royal, Stratford - mid-to-late 1950s) and unwavering dedicated itself to traditional music throughout its existence (fact)
Throughout that time, it pushed the boundaries out to exploring every aspect of the music without having to resort to the pop music industry because the audience numbers were falling.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 06:08 PM

"I assume by your comments that you approve of the lady who fucked up dozens of evening for the many hundreds of people who filled the place throughout her visitations."
why, would you assume that?
I said your description made it sound like a bundle of laughs.
, might i point out there are a number of clubs who have definite booking policies and those clubs include Southport bothy , swindon, stockton,st neots,bodmin, faversham, Lewes[ sat]lewes Thursday that have run for much longer[fact] Than the SINGERS CLUB, some of those clubs have run for fifty years
i happen to now Jim, because i have played 7 out of the 8, and six of those seven many times, A few facts, as regards Stockton folk club [established 1962] I have been the performer who was booked the most in fifty years 25 times, Swindon folk club established 1960 at least a dozen times, Bodmin folk club 1968, 5 or 6 times,I speak from experience, there are a sizeable number of clubs with definite booking policies who have been in existence for longer than the lifetime of the singers club.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 05:43 PM

I use crib sheets now and then when I'm trying out a new song at the local sessions. It's better than having that long pregnant pause trying to remember the next line or missing out a few verses.
For me, songs need to be honed in front of a live audience. No matter how much I practise a new song it's never really broken in till it's sung before two or more people.

I rest my case, your 'honer'

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 05:23 PM

"A night at the Singers Club, Jim makes it sound like a bundle of laughs."
"On the other hand, it was the longest running well attended policy in Britain with residents who remained dedicated to folk singing (proper) throughout their lives - Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger, A. L. Lloyd, Seamus Ennis, Joe Heaney, Dominic Behan, Sandra Kerr, Frankie Armstrong, Bob Blair, Terry Yarnell..... and the guests, Sam Larner, Harry Cox, The Stewarts, Jeannie Robertson, Lizzie Higgins, Walter Pardon, Bobby Casey, Willie Scott, Kevin Burke, Kevin Mitchell, Paddy Tunney, Ravi Shankar, The Batish Family, Kali Das Gupta, Mike Seeger, Tom Paley, Peter Bellamy.......
And the legacy, The Long Harvest, Blood and Roses, Feature Evenings, Folk Theatre, The Festival of Fools, The Critics Group, how did we put up with it?
But there again, I was only a regular for nearly twenty years.
Beats what's happening today as far as I'm concerned and left an indelible record of what could happen when you set your mind to it and you'd never hear a Buddy Holly Wannabe
Give us a break Dick...... those who can't criticise - always the way.
I assume by your comments that you approve of the lady who fucked up dozens of evening for the many hundreds of people who filled the place throughout her visitations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 04:44 PM

the woman sounds as if she could do with a cribsheet. or a gag, or something. with a cribsheet, it would have cut down on the time she was staring at the ceiling.

its that business of when the organiser singles you out to lead the company out of the slough of despond. at some level -its abit flattering. on another - you think, well i won't be able to do the song i want to do.......

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 04:09 PM

on the subject of the Singers club, there were a lot of people who would not go near the place because of their singing policy, and that was nothing to do with people being allowed one song.
Jim Carrolls post is interesting because he criticises a singer who could not remember her words, he criticises her for asking for help with the tune, he criticises her for knitting.
A night at the Singers Club, Jim makes it sound like a bundle of laughs.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:17 PM

Bounty Hound, it's a question of semantics, I regard anyone who is listening to a song as audience, even if only for the duration of that song. Whatever you like to call it, surely you agree that the people listening are entitled to the same level of performance from you as a 'proper audience'?

I'm not suggesting anyone should be banned from singing (although I can think of one or two... !). Each case on its merits. However very few people have genuine problems with memory, in most cases where they have difficulty memorising words it's because they haven't trained their memory.

It's about normalising behaviour. When I started it was not normal to use books or cribs, at least not openly, and as a novice singer it was obvious to me (and to other novices) without being told that I was expected to learn and understand the song, think about how to deliver it, and learn to control my nerves. Now it seems that all too often those messages aren't coming across. By trying to be kind and inclusive there's a danger of holding people back by not encouraging them to build their skills and confidence. It may help to get them started but it's not doing them favours in the long run.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 02:35 PM

"over indulgent and over ambitious egos"
Which come in all shapes and sizes, those who are proficient singers and those who couldn't get two notes to relate to each other
the Singers Club did not follow a singaround policy - we had a strong team of residents and it was those the audience came to hear, so we restricted the large number of floor singers to one song each, always in the first half, just before the interval.
One regular was a woman who literally couldn't hold a tune, invariably forgot the words and selected long, difficult songs.
She made a point of getting there early and sitting in the front row, knitting like M'm Lefarge and apparently taking no interest in the proceedings.
Things got so bad that residents would ask the doorkeeper "is C... in tonight?", before they steeled themselves to come in.
She often had problems establishing the tune and would ask the audience to help her out, and on the regular occasions she forgot words she would stare at the ceiling for long periods until they came back to her - 'Nightmare at The Union Tavern'.
Eventually she stopped coming, but shortly afterwards the organising committee received two letters, one from her, one from her feller, saying they were resigning their membership because of our one-song policy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:48 PM

Jim, I agree with you an excellent post. a good MC knows his stronger singers or what kind of songs his singers tend to sing and arranges the running order in a precise way.
even if people are singing from crib sheets, presEntation is important, be prepared, have options of songs sorted in your mind, have the songs readily accessible, and if you are going to use crib sheets practise with them, practise PERFORMING., IT IS POSSIBLE WITH LOTS OF PRACTICE TO PERFORM WELL WITH CRIB SHEETS,I think it is often a barrier between an audience and performer.
here I am with some other bods using music a in 1985, of course this music is very complicated and would be difficult to play without musichttp://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/5148

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:36 PM

all very well - but pulling the audience together, after they've been rent assunder by the over indulgent and over ambitious egos - its not usually what you had in mind for a night out.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM

"folk gatherings" are, by and large, polite and forgiving audiences, an individuals, best, may still be a poor performance but the audience will clap and move on.
I suspect we all have some degree of self-delusion with regard to our performing ability. It harms no one.
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:05 PM

One of the great problems with weaker and less experienced performers (crib sheets are an indication of these) is, of course, that they can impact on the performances of others as far as the audience is concerned.
Get a run of three - for reasonable to well performed songs followed by a poor performer, and the atmosphere in the room plummets, leaving the better performers to have to lift it again.
I'm not suggesting that people should be disqualified through lack of experience, but the fact that there are such people who wish to sing has to be recognised and catered for - this can be done by thoughtful M.C-ing.
In recent years in Ireland, 'singing circles' have become very popular, basically bar-room gatherings where the night it turned over to singing - County Clare has a dozen of them, I'm told.
The best of them are the ones with a firm but friendly hand running th proceedings.
Our nearest one is run by the landlady, who, while she isn't a singer herself, is an enthusiast with a good ear.
If things fall into a rut, he will nod or point to a singers who she thinks will lift the proceedings.
Democracy is all very well, but..... 'a camel can be a horse designed by a committee" as they say!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:47 AM

So how about the old boy the Howard, who pops up from time to time at a singaround near me, who in his day was a competent singer, but now struggles with memory, so does sometimes refer to words, and his voice is old and croaky, obviously there is no chance of encouraging him to improve, should he be denied the opportunity to join in?

I still don't see singarounds as singing to an audience, those participating are there because they choose to go because they want to sing themselves, and only to be 'entertained' in the sense that they are part of the evening, and if the singaround takes place in an open building like a pub, chances are those not there to take part are there in spite of the singaround and not because of it.

I've been singing in the shower for years, good place to learn words for new songs, but I find the instruments tend to get a bit soggy :)

John

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

"when I go somewhere to perform, it is by invitation from someone else ... When I go to a singaround it is because I choose to myself. "

I understand the distinction you are making, but I think its a false one. In my opinion, in both cases you owe the same 'duty of care' to the people you're singing for to sing the song to the best of your ability. Whether they're lined up in rows looking at a stage or gathered informally in a back room shouldn't matter.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:24 AM

If you want to sing for your own pleasure then I recommend the bathroom. If you're going to sing in the presence of other people, and especially if you expect them to listen, then surely you have a responsibility to them to try do it sufficiently well that they will want to listen. Otherwise its just plain rude.

It appears to me that whilst some singarounds are keen to encourage people to sing (which is entirely commendable) they don't want to take the responsibility to encourage them to improve, and provide them with an environment in which they don't need to, and perhaps don't even see the need to. I'm sure they and their audience would enjoy it even more if they could be encouraged to gain the skills and started to get real, rather than sympathy, applause.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 10:25 AM

Just a further thought to my previous post, and to hopefully clarify where I'm coming from, when I go somewhere to perform, it is by invitation from someone else, club or festival organisers, local event organisers etc. When I go to a singaround it is because I choose to myself.

John

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 10:07 AM

'But whose pleasure? If it's only for the singer's own pleasure it's just self-indulgence

Perhaps it is self-indulgent Howard, surely that's exactly why people go to singarounds, because they want to sing for their own pleasure. That's exactly why I would go to a singaround, and when I go, I would be supportive of those who are doing the same, but are not the world's best singer/musician.

I go to 'perform' elsewhere.

John

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 09:46 AM

the thing is - sometimes they have massive ringbinders, several volumes and they have this sort of professorial air as they delve amongst their papers to find out what will inspire them.

a slap on the wrist would be a dreadful impertinence.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 09:37 AM

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles - PM
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 07:55 AM

"Given what has been said here it would seem there are large numbers of people who routinely use crib sheets, plus large numbers who perform at an unacceptably low level. How do people propose to remedy this without losing a significant proportion of the current folk club participants"
practise, even practising with a crib sheet is better than not practising with a crib sheet, it must be possible to perform to a good standard with a crib sheet if it is practised, personally i would prefer if people practised and got to a good standard without a crib sheet, but practising with a crib sheet has got to be better than not practising with a crib sheet, turning up to perform unpractised.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:57 AM

"I have never understood the active support for the practice -"

Unfortunately, Jim, the excuse, "I've got a poor memory" is often taken at face value - at least it is at the singaround that I occasionally attend (it has to be said, less and less regularly these days). I'm afraid that, if I was the singaround organiser, I would probably make myself very unpopular by asking any crib sheet using participants to bring a 'doctor's note' to the next session!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:22 AM

I think if it has been a long standing practice to allow their use it is difficult to call a halt to the practice overnight, but I think a campaign of 'discouragement'by drawing attention to is is in order - a simple statement that you are intending to try and phase it out.
I noticed on a London singaround website a gentle slap on the wrist to a couple of regulars - not unpleasant enough to give offence.
The ideal would be to offer help to singers who wished to develop - often a two way street in drawing in volunteers.
I have never understood the active support for the practice - do people actually believe that those who persist are incapable of learning songs - are the songs not worth the effort?
Beyond me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 07:55 AM

Given what has been said here it would seem there are large numbers of people who routinely use crib sheets, plus large numbers who perform at an unacceptably low level. How do people propose to remedy this without losing a significant proportion of the current folk club participants.
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 07:45 AM

"I don't see sitting round in a group of friends taking turns to sing as a performance, but taking part for the pleasure of doing so."

But whose pleasure? If it's only for the singer's own pleasure it's just self-indulgence. It should also be for the pleasure of the listeners. That requires proper preparation to think about the song, work out the best phrasing, and deliver it to the best of one's ability. That's all I mean by 'performance'. Shouldn't a group of friends be entitled to expect that from each other? And is it really too much to ask from people who apparently love the music and enjoy singing?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 06:04 AM

when you think about it. everywhere you sing is different. each venue imposes its own disciplines.

the effectiveness of your performance is conditioned by all sorts of things - the shape of the room, the cleverness of the sound man, the carpetting, the way the chairs have been laid out, your position on the bill.

as you get more experience, you will know which instruments to choose, which song to pick - and generally the craft of performing. that's why its important for more experienced players and singers to set an example, and pass on the craft. no one comes into this business fully formed as an artist. the more experienced performer will usually be able to maximise the situation to his advantage.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 05:19 AM

So from the comments, it does look as though I have a different view of singarounds to most. To be fair, I don't get to as many as I probably should, but just to say again, my experience of singarounds in this part of the world is that they are about 'taking part' rather than 'performing' and are friendly and inclusive.

I don't see sitting round in a group of friends taking turns to sing as a performance, but taking part for the pleasure of doing so.

Performing, to me is being in front of an audience, not other singers, who may or may not have paid to be there, and should expect a polished 'show'

John

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 05:13 AM

Now we're cooking on gas!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: r.padgett
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 04:39 AM

Totally agree with Howard above!

Singarounds for me help with live practice for the more intimidating

folk clubs where people pay money to hear a "guest" even floor singers

need to be good and practiced ~ sing from memory as soon as you can and use mnemonics to remember verses and any others tricks

songs should be meaningful, entertaining, comic, historical, and the usual sort of categories which we sing about ~ if it means nothing I personally can't learn it!

Ray

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 04:06 AM

If you are singing to other people then it is a performance, no matter how informal the situation. Surely when you sing to other people you hope to entertain them (and to be entertained when they sing) otherwise why do it? Seriously, what is the point? If you want to sing, that's what bathrooms were invented for.

Being able to memorise a song isn't a gift, it's a skill which has to be learned and practiced. Using a crib is an obstacle to both.

Neither is amateurism an excuse. All around the country people are playing and singing in amateur orchestras, choirs, brass bands etc many of which demand, and achieve, the highest standards of musicianship. Many of the performers at folk festivals are amateur, in the sense that they don't make a living from it. 'Amateur' shouldn't mean low standards.

Claims about professionals using cribs, or performers who successfully engage with the audience despite using a crib, miss the point. These are exceptions - the sad reality is that in the majority of cases singers who rely on cribs don't engage with the audience and don't show adquate preparation.

It's not really about the format. Folk clubs should welcome those who wish to sing, and a singaround may be a less intimidating format but also more likely to tolerate the practice. Encouraging participation isn't the issue, and if a group of people wish to give that aspect priority that's up to them. It's the lack of incentive then to improve, both by encouragement and example, which is the complaint. Folk music deserves better.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: AlbertsLion
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:02 AM

interesting thread having just realised I've been 'folk singing' in one form or another, for fifty years (more if you count compulsory 'singing tohether' in junior school). My introduction to grown up folk clubs, no entry when singer on etc was the early revival Wigan FC circa 1966 and I haven't stopped since. I started and ran a couple of clubs along the 'traditional' format in the past but in my part of the world (SW Wales) time has moved those sort of clubs on and what is left are acoustic sessions and 'open mic' nights. Various people have tried to reintroduce the old style folk club but it hasn't worked. Society has changed but for me the important thing is to play/sing with a bunch of like minded friends who can play their instruments and mostly remember the words but also welcome beginners and even folk with words on paper if necessary. An audience is a bonus (feedback and ego boosting) and free beer is doubly welcome!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 02:18 AM

On balance I'm with Shimrod, notwithstanding recalling the first time I got up in a folk club to sing a folk song. I was a teenager who to be fair was used to performing albeit in a rock band hiding behind effects and PA system, or in a youth orchestra where second violin could easily hide mistakes and nobody was staring at me.

The welcoming applause for my efforts is something I still remember.

But I also remember thinking that regardless of the polite applause, people prefer to be entertained if possible and to try and up my game each and every time I get up and sing.

I'm not convinced of singarounds as an evening of passive entertainment for the listeners as it is not always easy to introduce a song, the provenance of a traditional song, the context of a radio ballad, why you or Vin Garbutt or whoever wrote this particular folk song. Often it's starting to sing that makes others stop talking over you.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 01:28 AM

"Is everyone saying that taking part in a singaround is a 'performance'? "

Basically, yes. What else is it?

"Is my understanding and expectations from a singaround different to everyone else?"

Sadly, no.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:25 PM

I'm still struggling a bit with this one. Is everyone saying that taking part in a singaround is a 'performance'?

Surely the pupose of a singaround is to join with friends and like minded people for one's own enjoyment, there is no 'audience' as such, and as I've said before, the singarounds I've been to are friendy and inclusive, and encourage people who want to sing for their own pleasure, but may not be people who would 'perform' in the sense that I would understand.

Is my understanding and expectations from a singaround different to everyone else?

John