Black-faced Morris dancers

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 07:26 AM

Folk or fake?

Folk is fake. That's the golden rule. The rest is a matter of personal faith.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:25 AM

Or nothing's fake. As far as I'm concerned what's real is the urge to take part in music, dancing and dressing-up, whatever form it takes.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:34 AM

True, I think it's one thing I agree on - CSH still hasn't got its head out of its arsehole. Or perhaps it's the Arts Council's. I couldn't bear to investigate too deeply, but fled. There may be some real people on the Council, but their Admin, my God! Never saw most of them down the bar...
Throughout my life I've been seen as the team sergeant. Of late some of my circle wanted me in on a London Gentleman's Club known as Spook Central, but they all collapsed, I'm still standing: I think that's the difference, If you're in touch with where you came from you'll persist. Me dad started in the Portsmouth Corporation Tram depot, I started as a warehouseman in Sainsburys. We both rose to do some remarkable stuff. It's the Occifers who're diletantes, amateurs, poseurs, never been there and dunnit, they need us folks to make them real: same as my daughter, bright lass, led the way with the Brussels Eurobrats showing them how the rest live, integrating them with the local community. That's half the point, isn't it? Having the nouse to call BS what it is - and that's what we're on about here. If you define the terms by which you get upset, then you've only got yourselves to blame if you get the traditional response, "two lovely black eyes, two lovely black eyes, only for telling a man he was wrong, two lovely black eyes." Gentlemen and dancers...

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:59 AM

That's a matter of personal faith, Phil. It's like believing in God. If it's real to you subjectively that's fine. Objectively, however, like God, it's demonstrably a load of phoney tosh the religiosity of which makes a lot of claims with respect of its provenance & authenticity that have no place in shared reality. As I've always said, at least a model railway enthusiast would know a real train should ever they encounter one. Your common-or-garden folk enthusiast is too wrapped up in the illusion of it all to tell the difference.

Does this matter? I think it does because somewhere along the way the very important differentiation between Traditional & Revival seems to have been lost. In persisting on the authenticity of its recreations the Revival serves to obfuscate the nature of genuine folklore - be it the long-dead traditional prototypes it uses for its grotesque modern charades, or else in overlooking the Real Thing because it doesn't fit into the faux-aestheticm that appeals to the mindset of your average Folk Enthusiast. Thus the human dimension is lost - as in the present instance when otherwise reasonable people have somehow managed to convince themselves that dancing with backed-up faces in the public spaces of 21st Century UK is somehow a worthy, noble, tradition, historic and (above all) Not Racist thing to do.

I think now my excommunication from the folk world is complete. This thread and its related bluster has, I fear, been the final straw!

Offski - Sedayne!

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 10:53 AM

1971 - this was real authentic working class West Country culture.
Getting dressed up, half cut, loud and lewd, and letting your hair down to songs like this
on two weeks summer holday at seaside caravan holiday camps...

I know. I was there way past my normal school day bedtime,
with my bottle of fizzy pop and bag of crisps,
looking on at the pissed up cavorting grown ups,
all the while absorbing the heady atmosphere of my tribal mating rituals .....

All totally, happily oblivious to whatever the teachers, factory managers, and town hall officials
might have been getting up to with their airy fairy middle class folk revival recreation
of their version of Great British lower class traditional customs....

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:34 PM

Study Texts for the remainder of the week:

"Carry On Camping"
"Holiday On The Buses"
"Confessions From A Holiday Camp"

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:06 PM

And I was being taught maypole by Harry Hambleton, who's listed in the RVWL as one of the last trad maypole dancers from Sussex. We weren't all being conned by the siren songs of popular culture.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:27 PM

Looks like Jack B has excommunicated himself from the folk scene. Is that allowed? Doesn't the Pope get a say?

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:32 PM

Rahere - I'll be serious for a bit...

Is it fair for non scholars / musicologists / Folklorists / etc to consider
there were parallel folk 'revivals' in the 60s & 70s...???

one of which, scattered regional pockets of working class communities
continuing to pass on and enjoy their indigenous authentic folk traditions,
being overshadowed by the more dominant middle class recreational fancy dress hobbyists...???

In my neck of the woods, the only real noticable traditions we grew up with were the autumn carnivals
which many bourgeois 'traddies' might dismiss as garish low brow concoctions of loud brightly lit
celebrations of pop culture influences...

But, then we were the grandchildren of the sons of the soil interviewed by Cecil Sharp.
Families disconected from the rural lanscape,
council estate factory wage slaves with colour tellys -
and pub skittles and darts for wage earners..

Never saw a maypole outside of primary school Ladybird books....

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:52 PM

'Revival' and 'fake' are now synonyms. Can I have that confirmed in a dictionary somewhere, Sedayne, please?

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 04:07 PM

A list of some current working class traditions.

Watching TV.
Drinking in a pub surrounded by quiz machines, TV screens and canned music.
Attending football/rugby matches.

All of them pretty passive. I'm not knocking them. I'm just not blaming those middle class oiks who don't want to be part of this culture, and would rather revive colourful old customs.

What do you mean by 'authentic', PFR?

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 04:44 PM

"What do you mean by 'authentic', PFR?"


Natural rather than silicone implants...

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 09:20 PM

kinda related issue...

oops

"DJ Mike Read defends UKIP Calypso song

Former BBC Radio 1 DJ Mike Read has written a song in support of UKIP,
which the party hopes its supporters will propel to number one.

UKIP Calypso, performed with a mock Caribbean accent, sings the praises of UKIP leader Nigel Farage.

But some Twitter uses complained that the track was racist."

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM

It really isn't. It really really really really isn't.

If Border Morris sides were wearing brown makeup with thick white lips and singing Old Man River while claiming not to be racist, then it'd be related.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 03:33 PM

well...kinda related in the sense of the social media 'outrage' at perceived 'racism'
in what is merely intended as just a bit of 'innocent' fun......

.. phew nearly got too carried away with italics and irony denoting inverted commas....

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 06:53 AM

Sticks and stones, almost a definition of rapper!
The mob mentality of the social media is not a norm we should be overly respectful of, not least because we have had to see new legislation to stop malicious trolling. Whilst recognising the possibility we are wrong, we also have the right and duty to explain why we are right, and argue the case, not something things like Twitter are good at: you cannot make a decent explanation of something as complicated as this in such a concise manner. It should not be a question of "liking", it is a question of deeper truth.

Mike Read's came up with that "Calypso" in the heritage of the 1960s work done by the likes of Willy Rushton and Lance Percival around the fringes of TW3. That was already in and of itself somewhat controversial at the time: Read reversed the sympathy, attacking what the 1960s crew were aligned with, and thereby causing "unintentional" offence. How he could have taken such to be "unintentional" beats me: he must have the cultural sensitivity of a rhino! I think I'd take it further: if you distort a heritage (and calypso is Carribean heritage, descended from African griot Kaiso - it's even associated with a form of Rapper, Calinda! I talk with the authority of the person who put Dembo Konte, the first griot to visit the country together with the Southbank, back in the late 80s - the real credit goes to the Edinburgh Harp Festival, who sponsored their visit) then you take double the consequences. It's one thing to develop it, another to abuse it. His defence is another form of the somewhat hypocritical debating method I criticised recently on the BS track, the use of "inappropriate" and the like forms of mealy-mouthed insincerity to slide out from the consequences of ones actions if you get it wrong. Social media can be a guide, but one must always take responsibility for ones actions, and if wrong, go further than simply disappearing into the undergrowth like this. The responsible solution is to repair the harm done, if possible.

I mention Dembo, because his subsequent work with John Kirkpatrick, the progenitor of Border Morris, in laying the foundations for the Global Village puts the absolute lie to these claims.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 07:53 AM

Mike Read withdraws UKIP Calypso song

"Former BBC Radio 1 DJ Mike Read has requested a song he wrote in support of UKIP be withdrawn from sale following complaints that it was racist.

"I am so sorry that the song unintentionally caused offence. It was never meant to, and I apologise unreservedly," Read said.

"I have told the record company to withdraw the single immediately."

..a UKIP spokesman said: "This is Mike's song and it is obviously his decision what to do with it.

"We do think it is a shame that he has been treated so harshly by many in the 'right on' media,
but we respect his decision. We thought it was just a bit of fun, as did thousands of people,
evidenced by how well it has been selling.

He added: "Were it not for the synthetic outrage, the song would have generated a lot of money for charity,
as profits were to be split with the Red Cross for their Ebola Outreach programme.

"It's a pity those so concerned with political correctness have trodden all over this.""


...

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 08:15 AM

And? Is Mike a Border or Molly Dancer? I'd be hesitant about fixing my moral axis on the judgement of a UKIP bod! This smacks of desperation: and you don't address the other descent of that heritage I've shown above which shows the Tradition we're defending here was one which some of the greatest authorities on African heritage were extremely comfortable in working with.

If you'll believe UKIP is unintentionally racist, may I introduce you to my good friend the Governor of the Central Bank of Nigeria who is in desperate need of your advice...(oh, revenge is sweet, the Central Bank once ripped me off from half a million...)

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 08:34 AM

Rahere - are we at cross purposes..???

Remember... I've made it more than clear on this thread
I actually am one of them pc gone mad leftys who loathes the fukwit UKIP mindset..

.. which I see ample examples of here at mudcat
in the postings of some of the typical Jeremy Clarksons of the UK folk scene..

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 08:50 AM

I'm not sure whether anyone has yet pointed out that the members of Foxs Morris shown in the picture with the odious Cameron (and on their website) are actually wearing a variety of face-blacking patterns, from a few full-face, to more partial coverings suggesting 'masks', 'beards' etc. Looks to me as though some of their members have already taken on board some of the face-blacking questions addressed above.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:15 PM

Brian: Looks to me as though some of their members have already taken on board some of the face-blacking questions addressed above.

Yup. And we still got the "oo-er, is this a bit racist?" brouhaha. Because it's a tradition, innit, and you know what they say about people who are into traditions...

As I said upthread, to me it all comes down to whether we accept that being a traddie is enough to call your good intentions into question, or challenge that assumption. When we look at folkies do we think "ooh, ye olde England - I bet they're 'kippers"? And, if other people looking at folkies do think that, how do we react?

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:25 PM

What are kippers Phil? You've mentioned them a couple of times.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:31 PM

Stick neck out time, Michael --

I react by being a Kipper: probably too late to repair the damage that the well-meaners have inflicted for years on our nation; but one can at least try to stick some sort of finger in the dyke, and withdraw from stinking Europe after due genuine referendum, if it goes the way those like me think it should & mean to vote for.

& what, Brian, is any more 'odious' about Cameron than any other Parliamentarian of a party which happens not to be the one you favour? Just out of interest...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:32 PM

It means UKIP supporters, Nigel.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 01:21 PM

PFR
The introduction of the Read case is a red herring distracting from the main debate, as it tries to ally the trad to a bunch of fascist fruitcakes and doesn't really add anything to the case. That he was dragged kicking and screaming into the real world is no credit to him, particularly when he uses foul means "you're doing the Red Cross out of its share of profits" to justify himself. Has anyone asked the Red Cross if they're happy to be commandeered by a political party in this way? I'd rather think not. It may well be that he didn't diclose his full agenda to them: "I'm Mike Read the DJ and I'd like to offer you a share in the profits from a recording" or "I'm Mike Read the Kipper and..." if he even came up with anything before this blew up on him.
As is my wont, I was however able to turn the distraction to a case for the trad, as I'd forgotten what happened nigh on thirty years ago.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 01:27 PM

For those who think UKIP any way a fascist·fruitcake party, there will presumably be a branch of Specsavers or Dolland&Aitchison or VisionExpress or Boots somewhere nearby.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 01:33 PM

.. well as long as you didn't think I was a UKIP supporter...

I actually am open to at least consider the 'idea' of parallels & connections
between long forgotten has-been DJ Mike Read and 'some' black face morris supporters....???

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 03:51 PM

Hi, M.
Are we only then to worry about what UKIP do that is visual? Or are you suggesting we buy medication from Boots as some sort of protection from them? Take a few paracetamols and they'll all go away.

IMO simply dismissing them as fruitcakes is dangerous. I think we've seen plenty of evidence of their fascist leanings over the past few years even if the public faces have tried to brush it under the carpet!

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 06:18 PM

Didn't realise you had those sympathies, Michael, and I'll try to respect them in future by never mentioning the subject (at least above the line).

Of course, UKIP isn't a Fascist party - although it is currently in an alliance with a Polish MEP who the French Front National refused to ally with on the grounds that he was too extreme.

The question, slightly rephrased, remains (although perhaps it's best addressed to the Guardian readers among us):

When we look at folkies do we think "ooh, ye olde England - I bet they're reactionary bigots"? And, if other people looking at folkies do think that, how do we react?

I think our reaction should be various shades of "no, folkies aren't reactionary bigots, & I don't believe you've got any evidence that suggests they are". Other people prefer something along the lines of "we're not reactionary bigots (not like some folkies we could mention)".

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 06:23 PM

As I was saying...

When we look at folkies do we think "ooh, ye olde England - I bet they're reactionary bigots"? And, if other people looking at folkies do think that, how do we react?

I think our reaction should be various shades of "no, folkies aren't reactionary bigots, & I don't believe you've got any evidence that suggests they are". Other people prefer something along the lines of "we're not reactionary bigots (not like some folkies we could mention)".

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 09:46 PM

I think you have to go somewhat further than simply suggesting there's some amorphous parallel, PFR, invoking some kind of sympathetic magic to create a link between two similar activities: you have to show there is a real feature in common descent in both. In terms of pure logic, it creates fallacious syllogisms, as you can only go one way in derivation of subclass behaviours - "If All A are X, and All B are part of A, then All B are X". "If All C are X, and All C are also part of A, then you cannot be certain that All A are also X, and so you cannot be certain All B are also X". In this instance A is the hyperclass of musicians, B are folk musicians, and C are blackface minstrels: X is Racist. You have to show that both are subclasses of racist musician - making a circular argument on the basis of the evidence supplied so far.

I also think you should go futher, Phil. I think we're now in a position to say, "not only do you have no evidence suggesting that they are, but we have evidence suggesting they are not."

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 11:30 PM

what !!!????

Don't know about anyone else here, but I'm fairly certain I don't inhabit a world of 'pure logic'..

This is probably the first time in about 30 years anyone, in any social situation,
has confronted me with the word 'syllogisms' in any conversation I've been casually involved in...

I had to look it up... thanks for that..
brings back some memories of long forgotten set texts for seminars...

Honestly can't think how or when I'm ever likely to use such a word again..


'derivation of subclass behaviours'.. 'A is the hyperclass of'

those are good 'uns too... thanks..

But again, not too sure what use they are out here in small town provincial everyday conversation...

This, however, is the kind of plain English I, and perhaps most others, prefere to engage in..

Some folkies are racist, hopefully most aren't...

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 02:13 AM

So after all that can border morris persons black up or not?????

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:52 AM

"what, Brian, is any more 'odious' about Cameron than any other Parliamentarian of a party which happens not to be the one you favour?

I don't usually post about politics here, but since you ask, Michael:

While I'm sure Cameron is a devoted family man and his friends think him a splendid chap, the oozing sense of effortless superiority coupled with the sneering and bullying approach he adopts at PMQs epitomize a certain kind of public school product that really gets up my nose.

He's also not just a member of his party but its leader, so when his coalition punishes the vulnerable for the greed and incompetence of the rich and powerful, then the buck stops at his door. And his party doesn't "happen to be" one I dislike - for all I despair at the current free-market political consensus, I don't think for a minute that "they're all the same", and I make my preferences accordingly.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 05:28 AM

'When we look at folkies do we think "ooh, ye olde England - I bet they're reactionary bigots"?

I posed much the same question much earlier in this thread:

So what do you think is the reaction of most people when they see a morris side then Reynard,

'oh look, there's a morris side' perhaps, or 'oh look there's a group of people with black faces, so they must be racist'

(actually, and sadly, the reaction from a lot is probably 'look at that bunch of prats')

The person I addressed the question to did not answer!

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,pheasants etc
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 05:34 AM

"(actually, and sadly, the reaction from a lot is probably 'look at that bunch of prats')"

Exactly - so hence the disguise to protect 'normal life' reputation and respect.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:02 AM

I thought we'd spent thirty years leaving that Ye Olde... behind, crashed in the ditch along with Mrs Dales Dairy. The only Ye Olde round here is the Cherry Tree, and it has earned the title the hard way, having withstood many generations of regular pissartists and chain pub remodelling. The nearest they've got to it is converting the lawyers next door to a Travelodge.

Perhaps the answer is for the Border sides to temporarily replace the Fool with a charicature of the polly of their choice. That should deliver the message...

When Cameron was appointed, I was more than somewhat disappointed David Davies got sidelined so early. It's the leader who sets the tone, and people like Gideon aren't breaking through.

The sense of morris being pratting about is a form of social conformity typified by the insistence that you should stay in on Saturday night watching Strictly-cum-Dancing and the National Illitteracy. I'm even starting to hurt that Doctor Who's getting aligned with that characterless ticky-tacky-housing bread-and-circuses do-nothingness. It's a lie, of course: most morris sides are rather useful these days, being very competent dancers well able to show they have nothing to apologise for and demonstrating a vernacular skill of a thoroughly professional standard. In plain English, they're worth watching. In addition, they are carrying their heritage with them, not drawing from it, but taking full and competent charge of it.

And to finish this chain of disconnected thoughts, I thank you for the courtesy of the errant stray into academia as a formal proof of why the "all blackface is racist" are wrong. They didn't get the point that having a dirty face for whatever reason - gardening, military, you name it - does not make you racist, so the only other way was to hit them with some maths, reducing it to symbols. It does no harm that the work done building this tool was completed by Lewis Carroll, of Through The Looking Glass fame - the work being an applied theme-and-variations of the thinking. And that is where the logic used by the critics belongs - in a never-never land where words mean whatever the critics like. JUnlike the real world.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 11:03 AM

Still think 'odious' a bit strong, Brian; and your nose perhaps a bit excessively get-up-able. I mean, if we are going to use 'odious' for someone you find a bit self-satisfied & unctuous, what will be the adjective for Jihadi John, for instance?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 12:11 PM

DMW, I suspect.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 12:20 PM

"So after all that can border morris persons black up or not?????"

Of course. They didn't give a shite before this thread and certainly won't after.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,ripov sans
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:45 PM

My question is:- Why Black, when

Ancient Britons never hit on
Anything as good as WOAD to fit on
Arms and legs and what you sit on -
Go it, ancient B's

So Why not Blue?

But otherwise, heaven preserve us from the politically correct who haven't an ounce of fun or concern for others in them: and from those who take offence at the inoffensive.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 02:56 AM

Why not blue ? Because it is not dark enough to disguse the facial features.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:55 AM

Some sides do use blue, or some other colour, presumably to avoid the misunderstanding and unintended offence. However I agree it is less effective. Other sides persist in using black, and are prepared to defend it robustly if offence is taken, although this seems to arise more often in the press than in encounters with actual people.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 04:20 AM

So far as I can see from the few colour images blackface minstrels had brown face paint, not black.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 04:44 AM

"...if offence is taken, although this seems to arise more often in the press than in encounters with actual people."

I suspect that's simply cos it's rarely performed in front of black people. Have any blackface morris sides ever danced in Stonebridge, Moss Side, Broadwater Farm, Tottenham, Angel Town, Brixton? No? I wonder why that might be...

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:39 AM

In 1997: "AN ASIAN community group delivered a slap in the face to Granada TV's political correctness by asking the Britannia Coconutters to perform at their annual arts and dance festival. Blackburn's Audley People's Festival said they did not see a problem with the Coconutters blacking their faces. Granada had refused to film the dancers the previous month unless they performed without the traditional face-blacking."


http://www.rossendalefreepress.co.uk/news/local-news/nostalgia/masco-drivers-in-1957-1709110

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:46 AM

Have any morris dancers done much dancing in those areas, black-faced or not? No? I wonder why that might be…

Performers of any description have no real knowledge of the exact make-up of the crowds in which they'll be performing in front of. Plenty of black-faced morris dancers will have danced in front of black people if they have danced in the city-centres of any large or medium-sized British city. To hint - as I believe you are doing - that cowardice is the reason behind the lack of morris teams performing in the more notorious areas of the UK with large black populations is just wrong. I lack of interest/opportunity if much, much more likely to be the reason, speaking as someone who has lived in Tottenham and on the Meadows estate and Radford in Nottingham.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Reynard
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:55 AM

Hi,

I've not kept track of this thread (to be honest I thought it was coming to an end), so apologies for not replying to those that addressed me.

Bounty Hound:

My experience with several non-folky friends witnessing blacked-up morris dancers for the first time is that they find it distasteful and that the association with imitating or mocking black people is the first thing that springs to mind.

However, because it would be so unthinkable for a group to be so openly racist in modern Britain they are generally accepting of alternative historical explanations (eg disguise).

It's now pretty clear that these explanations are a bit shaky to say the least- but even if they were solid as a rock, why not adapt this one small aspect by using a type of disguise that carries no racist connotations?

Phil Edwards:

Gibb Sahib has already answered on my behalf, but I would suggest you look more into the early minstrel shows of the mid 19th C- after all this is the era that it has been suggested was an influence on border morris.

They were quite different in character from the Al Jolson era that you seem to be comparing with. When performers blacked up, they did not tend to paint their faces with white lips and eye sockets you mention. They didn't wear suits with white gloves: ragged clothes and battered top-hats with feathers could very much be part of the costume- in imitation of the poor blacks of the American deep south.

The music was a raucous and energetic pseudo-African-American mix of songs and tunes combining syncopated rhythms with melodies derived more from the traditional music of Britain and Ireland played on Banjo, Fiddle and Bones. It would have had much more in common with (and is an acknowledged influence on) American "Old-time" music than it does with the music the Al Jolson era minstrel shows- though there is of course some common repertoire eg Stephen Foster songs.

Piecing all this together, I do feel there are multiple visual parallels with some modern border morris sides. Of course I don't think for a minute any of them are doing it deliberately, or are even aware of it.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 08:14 AM

I believe in one of the previous threads on this topic someone from the Iron Men pointed out that their patch often takes them into the more ethnically diverse areas of the West Midlands and that they very seldom meet with any objections.

I came across this guidance for amateur dramatics from the National Operatic and Dramatic Association which deals with the far more sensitive topic of white actors blacking up to actually depict black people. It makes the very sensible point that this is offensive if is to perpetuate racial stereotypes, but the mere depiction of black people by white actors should not be objectionable (although efforts should be made to cast appropriately where possible). This seems to me to be the correct stance to take - there can be no suggestion that morris dancers are perpetuating racial stereotypes (except perhaps English ones). The supposed similarities of costume are far too tenuous, otherwise using different colour facepaint or none at all would make no difference.

Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 09:03 AM

"multiple visual parallels" my arse! I've shown you have to present some real evidence of heritage, not some kind of amorphous "parallel", and it's just not there. It's your own prejudice which is showing. Prejudice is making up your mind about something and applying it blindly to all cases without investigating or showing any knowledge. It is offensive: you would be equally pissed if I were to come up to you and call you racist simply because you're white and the blackface minstrels were white. But that's not something I've done or will do, because I'd have no case, it's something you did, and perhaps it's time for the soft analogists to start to show some contrition and apologise. They've had a chance to prove their case and have failed.