 sj |
||
|
||
traditional music is for entertaining
|
|
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Sep 19 - 10:57 AM I think this thread has gone on long enough. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Vic Smith Date: 30 Sep 19 - 10:45 AM Don't dismiss your accusation of my supposed misconduct towards MacColl it so easily. We can leave it when you make it clear that I have not posted against him as you suggest by writing yours and others Ewan stories is incorrect. Jim Bainbridge wrote I recall that Vic Smith once compiled a collection of anecdotes about MacColl and I am also unhappy about this and I think that he may be confusing me with someone else, though to be fair to Jim B, he does not imply that these stories were perjorative or against MacColl in any way. I do remember years ago posting one story about a dinner party I was at with Ewan & Peggy which put him in a rather bad light but this in no way defines that influential figure any more than the K&Q incident defines another influential figure. I come late last night from a relaxing holiday to face this. Thanks a bundle. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Sep 19 - 10:16 AM Jim said what he said, my last reference was to the existence and circulation of the stories, not who posted them They have proved years of a barrier to discussing the work and ideas we evolved in the Critics Group Such discussions seldom get belong 'name changes' and 'war records' Your dismissal of my story and suggestion that it inappropriate echoes Jim's last abusive message in which he describes Ewan as "condescending, precious and intolerant." - must have been a different feller than the one I knew As with comments you have made in the past about disagreements I have had with others, your objection would have carried far more weight had it been accompanied by criticism of Jim's abusive attitude towards me and a scurrilously inaccurate attack on someone who hasn't been been around for three decades to answer for himself Somewhat tunnel-visioned and one sided - again I really have finished with this Vic - you have drawn far more attention to Bob's behaviour here than I ever wanted to Let's leave there and deal with the more fruitful possibilities of this discussion - waddya say ? Jim |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Vic Smith Date: 30 Sep 19 - 09:36 AM Vic You are one who, accordibng to Jim, were happy to gather Ewan stories If Jim can produce evidence that I gathered any stories about MacColl then I will apologise - but I think he will struggle to do so. I have been trying to get past yours and others Ewan stories in order Again, I would like you to produce evidence that I have posted - never mind repeated as you do - that I posted such stories against any performer. Do you believe seriously that this is the way I operate? |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Sep 19 - 08:19 AM Vic You are one who, accordibng to Jim, were happy to gather Ewan stories You cant sweep Bob under the carpet and do that with another fellow folk enthusiast - that's applying double standards You may find the storoy "monotonous" - I have been trying to get past yours and others Ewan stories in order to share some of the things I have gained during my association with Ewan - so far without success If you standars apply to one, they apply to all Ewan remains a no-go area thirty years after his demise I mentioned Bob because I felt his behaviour relevant to the statement he is reported to have made here - I will attempt to discuss what I feel about Dick's statement if we are allowed to move past the barrier which is now being created by an unacceptable defense of bad behaviour towards fellow performers It is very noticeable that not one of you have actually denied that what I described took place, just that we must forget it - sorry -no can do when it's relevant Jim |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Vic Smith Date: 30 Sep 19 - 07:07 AM Jim Bainbridge wrote:- We've heard your tired stories about Bob Davenport over and over, Jim C. .... especially that one about Bob D's outburst at the K&Q. Clearly it offended some at the time, but it was a fit of the moment reaction and it happened several decades ago and can no longer be said to have lasting importance. Certainly it does not define Davenport's huge contribution or his vast importance in developing an approach to folk song which is still prevalent today. Jim Carroll is another person who has made a great contribution and I have gained a great deal from his generosity and his thoughts on the tradition but he makes a few statements that reappear with repetitive and monotonous regularity and they have a stultifying effect on the progress of a discussion. In my opinion, it was a mistake to return to this 2014 rancourous thread. Mudcat would seem, generally speaking, to have become a more pleasant, productive iscussion forum that it was five years ago. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:03 PM Sorry Dick I'd like to take up what you said later JiM |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:02 PM "We've heard your tired stories about Bob Davenport over and over, Jim C." No you haven't Jim - you've heard only the two and you are the only one to have in any way objected to them, so please don'st imagine you are speaking for anybody other than yourself You with your "pseudo academic" are now reverting to personal insults rather than argument - somewhat reminiscent of the individual you are defending I knew Ewan for twenty years - he was someone who devoted a day a week and the use of his home and library to inexperienced singers like me while the Bobs of this world got on with their careers' If Ewan had behaved a fractionally as bad as Bob and all the others who collect and spread their "stories" publicly, as I have witnessed many doxens of times, and as you are doing now now, he would deserve all the small-minded spite you and yours chuck out - he never did - not in my hearing - not once You tell me not to attack Bob yet you feel free to wade into somebody who has been dead for over thirty years - yeah - that sounds fair !!! Peggy put it in a nutshell once in a letter to The Living Tradition - "Ewan's been dead a long time and can no longer speak for himself, so if you don't like what he did, please let him rest in peace" You don't want me to say things that happen to be true about your mate yet you feel free to insult me whenever it suits you You say I am out of date - MacColl's been dead for over thirty years - so what set of rules applies to that contradictory behaviour !! I don't care what you or anybody thinks of Ewan - what he left behind speaks for itself I certainly don't care what you think of my work - that speaks for itself too and will be around in the form of many hundreds of songs we have collected and made available, long after all of us are dead and forgotten No pl;ease take your nasty small mindedness elsewhere - I think I can safely say it's not welcome here - or shouldn't be I hope to discuss the comments on education more fully later - feel free to stay around and join in If you continue to abuse and insult I shall ask that you are removed Jim carroll |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 29 Sep 19 - 01:10 PM We've heard your tired stories about Bob Davenport over and over, Jim C. For heavens' sake, it's from another age- give it a rest!! it has to be time you joined us in the 21st century? I have respect for MacColl's work & have often said this, and can see how his work might appeal to pseudo- academics like yourself. I have plenty of tales about MacColl which I won't bore readers with you, you seem to lack similar consideration? I did meet MacColl & went to some of his singing workshops in the sixties, but found his attitude condescending, precious and intolerant. Suffice to say that whatever his achievements, he was a pain in the arse and I personally learned a million times more from Bob Davenport's approach to the music. No more from me on this pointless discussion unless it gets back to the subject. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: The Sandman Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:08 AM how does one define entertainment?, one persons entertainment is another persons ennui |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Sep 19 - 06:18 AM "Especially when you have Bolshie characters like Bob involved." I mentioned Bob because of what he said Dick, and how I believe this incident illustrates his attitude I really didn't mean it as an attack on him as a performer All Festivals, in my opinion, take folk Song out of their natural environment - no harm if it's done carefully and thoughtfully, and not become the be-all and end-all More later Jim |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: The Sandman Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:20 AM i was one of the people that started Ballydehob JazzFestival , I witnessed committee meetings that were wrecked by people having too much to drink, serious debate and alcohol do not work well together imO, Especially when you have Bolshie characters like Bob involved. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Sep 19 - 04:47 AM "I have heard a recording of that meeting, i think one of the mistakes was for a break half way through for pints of beer[Ewans suggestion]" Never remember a meeting over a pub that didn't break for a beer - I remember sharing a crowded bar with Tariq Ali and Daniel Cohn-Bendit during the interval of a forum in Manchester in 'Red '68' Alchohol wsn't the problm at 'The John Snow' - though it didn't help that one speaker was steamed when he came in (not Bob) You made a number of interesting points which I'd like to take up after brekkers Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: The Sandman Date: 28 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM I have heard a recording of that meeting, i think one of the mistakes was for a break half way through for pints of beer[Ewans suggestion] Bob should and almost certainly will be judged on his performances rather than on one or two incidents from 40 plus years ago. in my opinion, both of them were strong characters with strong opinions. I think the important thing for older performers is to try and help and encourage and improve standards, something Ewan gave up time trying to do, he may not have always got it right[who does?]. in my opinion we are all indebted to Ewan and Bert and all the dedicated folk club organisers, who ran folk clubs every week. At the moment the uk folk revival needs people like Nic Dow who is helping the setting up of a new folk festival in Charnmouth this weekend. My advice to younger performers is get out and organise an event , the easiest place to start is a one day folk festival, unless performers start organising events there will not be sufficient venues for the uk folk revival to maintain a profile. Does the Newcastle degree course emphasis the need for performers to learn organisational skills or does it give the impression thatgigs will be there for everyone leaving thecourse the answer in my opinion is not art centres, flooded by folk agents who hype up the latest flavour of the month and seem concerned primarily with making folk music as commercially viable for themselves and their acts. Folk agents primary concern is getting work for their acts this eventually leads to to pressure to commercialise the music and take it further from its roots. In my opinion the uk folk revival is meandering back and forth in a rudderless direction, younger people[50 downwards] need to start organising folk events,their concern should not be only commercial on the other hand they need to breask even,any profit has to be ploughed back. Commercialism is necessary to a small extent only,commercialism should not be a mantra it should not be the be all and end all. professionalism and respect for the music and the maintenance of quality is more important |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:06 AM "Jim C, can be so vitriolic about anyone at all?"Sorry - that was misleading The meeting was set up TO DISCUSS the direction the revival was taking Apparently it was Bert who was concerned and instigated it Jim |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Sep 19 - 05:37 AM "Jim C, can be so vitriolic about anyone at all?" I have describd my experiences of Bob - unless you believe I am lying what objection do you have to my doig so on a thread where his name comes up What I wrote is perfectly in line with is attitude to folk song I obviously don't have to remind you of the constant vitriol poured on the over thirty-years dead MacColl - why anybody should wish to compile a collection of that is beyond me ? All that does is to make it more impossible to discuss his work, yet Bob is among the most vitriolic I have a recording from the mid-sixties of his deliberately wrecking a meeting attempting the direction the folk song revival was taking, set up by Ewan and Bert and including Bob, Bert and Alex Campbell as speakers Bob shouted down every speaker from the floor saying more or less what he is quoted as saying here and sent the meeting crashing in chaos I don't call that a great contribution to folk song by any stretch of the imagination Bob was then an arrogant bully and a wrecker, that is why I don't like him Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Doug Chadwick Date: 27 Sep 19 - 05:10 AM I have a niece named Amy. We were never close until one day I memorized and sang "Once in Love with Amy" to her and her fiance. She was 30 years old and had never heard of that song! One person's song from a 1948 Broadway musical is another person's traditional music. DC |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:05 AM I think my point about rambling introductions was clarified well by Derrick, but I cannot follow how someone with your obvious intelligence, Jim C, can be so vitriolic about anyone at all? it can't be good for you! Such condemnation is illogical & almost rabid & must be more deep- rooted than some incident from years ago- I assume due to Bob's views on MacColl et al, but it surely is time you became a bit more objective about it all- I'm glad that YOU are not compiling the HISTORY OF FOLK MUSIC- it could be a little biased & potentially send college folk students in a doubtful direction if your views were set in stone!! I recall that Vic Smith once compiled a collection of anecdotes about MacColl, and I would have a few, but I can accept to see that the man achieved a lot in his life. Bob's contribution has been in a quite different sector of our music, and I accept the fact that Bob will not be running a course on tact & diplomacy. I don't intend to rake over events of years ago, but to suggest that Bob Davenport is not one of the most influential figures of the early revival is not only dishonest, but ridiculous. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:22 AM " a ten minute lecture is not." Couldn't agree more Derrick - though some of the best lectures on folk song and music I attended took place at folk club venues Jim |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:06 AM Folk song was the one of the entertainments of the working people,many songs made by those people,some borrowed from other sources. The subjects of the songs varied from pure comedy to social and political comment,the singers picked their songs depending on the occasion.A song with a moral lesson might be chosen in one case a comedic song in another. When it comes to a folk club a little information to "set the scene" is acceptable a ten minute lecture is not. The place for that is a workshop. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM Bob's behaviour is too well known to need a slanging match jim - as is his views on taking folk song seriously We all have strong vies on some things - it's Bob's behaviour to his fellow enthusiasts that cause the problems You have the description of his behaviour at The King and Queen defend it, condemn i or deny it - but don't accuse anyone of provoking a slanging match please It is your opinion that he is "one of the earliest..." or even an influence for the better Longevity is no recommendation for anything other than being around a long time Folk song, when taken seriously (as some of us choose to do) is not only worthy of being part of education - it is an education in itself, when you allow it to be Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:10 AM Here we go again & I want no part of any slanging match- enough of that in the House of Commons. I know Bob has strong views and I'd go along with many of them- this thread has several oft-quoted incidents/comments from many years ago which are now in the category of 'mud sticks' & hearsay. Sandman is right & am sure Bob would agree that introductions to songs should be brief & relevant- NOT long a long rambling precis of the song to follow, even if translation is necessary. If that degree of explanation the case, maybe a folk club is the wrong place for it? As for the presence of traditional music in a college class, at the risk of offending old pals & academics in Newcastle, I'd say that 'traditional' music managed fine without the academic class, and i'd subscribe to Ed Pickford's tongue in cheek song 'Folk Degree'(see youtube clip) where he laments he can't get gigs any more as he doesn't have a folk degree. There is a need for research into the tradition OF COURSE and I have no idea what goes on in folk education (I shudder to think, really) but would suggest leenia does a little more research before attacking one of the earliest and most influential of the UK revival singers. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: The Sandman Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:13 AM Bob Davenport on that occasion missed A COUPLE OF IMPORTANT points, short explanatory introductions are informative, and part of communication with an audience, which is part of entertaining,. for example i sing a song that has several words in the doric, so that people can understand subtle aspects of the song it is necessary to explain. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: leeneia Date: 25 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM Let me ask y'all something about the OP. Is 'further education' what we Americans call 'adult education'? It involves classes for enrichment only, not work towards a degree. Students usually have degree already. If Davenport is saying that traditional music should never be covered in a college class, I think he has rocks in his head. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:20 PM I agree with your post, Jim. I'd also add that passive "entertainment" of the ilk of telly soaps is anathema to me. In any performance, whether it's a telly drama, a pop concert, John Kirkpatrick with his boxes or a Beethoven string quartet, I want emotional interaction. "Soaking it up" simply won't do for me. Maybe I'm just weird... |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:13 PM Before I became too bloody deaf I played in pub sessions for twenty years or more. I was playing tunes for myself and for my fellow sessioneers. In no way was I "performing" for an audience. I'm told that the pub crowd enjoyed us and that we actually attracted extra customers of a Friday night. It was a bonus if they enjoyed what we did, but we were playing for ourselves, not them. Every grand Irish session I've listened to or joined in with has been the same. A gig is different, but a session is for the sessioneers only. Anything else is a bonus for the pub and its customers. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Sep 19 - 01:52 PM ""Art is entertainment." Not really as simple as that in my opinion SS If I look at Picasso's Guernica or read Brecht;s Marie Farrer I am not being entertained in any way Take as many examples such as this as you wish The problem isn't describing traditional music as 'entertainment' but is confining it to that description Jim |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Stringsinger Date: 25 Sep 19 - 12:15 PM Art is entertainment. Different people have differing entertainment needs. The word entertainment has been associated with commercialization but I am entertained by a great symphony, looking at a Picasso, hearing an erudite lecture or a rural trad folk performer. I'm entertained by jazz, reading, seeing a good Broadway musical, and creating music and words for myself. What passes mostly for entertainment on a commercialized level is not entertaining to me with some exceptions. I'm entertained by integrity and honesty in a performance regardless of genres. The point made about traditional folk music is that it was not constructed to be on the stage or sell lots of recordings but fulfills a need for security and solidarity in a community. But that's still a form of entertainment more satisfying than anything on TV, or marketed music. The "Folk Scare" brought this into focus. Some songs were bowdlerized and spruced up for the mass market. The idea of a folk singer was sold as a young woman with long hair and a guitar. Or college frat boys.Think Mighty Wind. An art form with thought and depth, conveying emotion that's available to anyone who cares to make the effort to appreciate it is an ultimate form of entertainment that lasts. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Sep 19 - 11:39 AM Whatever he meant he is utterly wrong - he referred to it not being suitable for education We experienced Bob's take on introducing songs when tow extremely fine Irish women singers, Roisin White from Armagh and Theresa Mullan from the Aran Island, Inishmore were booked at Peta Webb's club, The King and Queen Theresa thoughtfully gave a short explanation of her Irish language songs, over which a 'very Bob' Bob, pointedly talked loudly We were two rows in front of him, so Pat turned as asked him would he mind not talking Charmingly, he replied, "I came here to listen to singing not talk - I thought we'd got rid of that shit in the sixties" Bob's been around long enough to know that some singers feel the need to introduce their songs I've always considered Bob somewhat ill-mannered and arrogant - and over-rated Sorry 'bout that Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 19 - 11:20 AM I think that people are ignoring the WHOLE quote in the opening post. The context in which Davenport made the statement isn'g given but I certainly read it as a criticism of singers who waffle on stage about a song's background. Fred Jordan used to make similar criticisms and it was a great lesson to see Walter Pardon who would stand up, sing the song and sit down without saying anything. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:30 AM Incidentally, the feller who is quoted as saying it is just for entertaining once insisted that Art for educated people should come with a capital "A" while for the rest of us it should have a small "a" Doesn't say much for the people who created and kept alive the traditional Arts (or should that be "arts"), does it ? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:25 AM Traditional music is certainly 'entertaining' If you think that' all that is, you miss a hell of a lot more Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST,mrgrtt123 Date: 24 Sep 19 - 10:05 PM You mean "entertainment?" We will all have different opinions or feelings whenever we listen to music. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:12 PM Music helps you feel better, and that's not precisely the same as being entertained,, though that's one aspect of it. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: The Sandman Date: 24 Sep 19 - 02:06 PM Tomorrow i will be doing a gig locally in a community centre, i will be singing trad songs , i will get others to sing as well, the songs are stories and people seem to find them entertaining. it will not be necessary to pull rabbits out of hats or do tommy cooper impersonations, but if it is anything like the last time i did it,the people enjoy it and ask me back, trad music is appreciated in ireland |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: leeneia Date: 24 Sep 19 - 11:08 AM Purposes I can think of for trad music: entertaining others comforting oneself when lonely or sad teaching, esp. children e.g., "Ten Little Indians" teaches counting religion making love selling products strengthening friendship passing the time when bored recording history preserving ethnicity keeping ethnic divisions alive shock value, grossing others out - is this a form of bullying? I have a niece named Amy. We were never close until one day I memorized and sang "Once in Love with Amy" to her and her fiance. She was 30 years old and had never heard of that song! |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 19 - 05:37 AM yes who- and his dad |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST Date: 13 Nov 14 - 11:54 AM musket, what ar all these names & who is Seth lakman? |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Musket Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:31 AM The other night, I noticed, four Martins, two Lowdens, myriad Taylors, a Collings and to be fair, my Rainsong is in the £2.5K bracket but made me look a pauper boo hoo. Music of the masses eh? Pass the Ferrari Rocket. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:36 AM 'traditional music is for entertaining' but will it work in Mayfair. I suppose it might catch on..... When the after eight mints have gone round - they all get their ringbinders out and.... down the road at the Embassy reception, the butler enters with Ferrerro Rocher, and .....oh you're spoiling us - three slip jigs and a hornpipe! |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Musket Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:35 AM And well put. You miss the point though. My observation was the parochial assumption of many that their Thursday night activity denotes folk. These threads are full of people whose goldfish bowls have greasy glass Folk and acoustic roots is one of the most thriving musical entertainment genres out there right now. And still we see people getting precious and thinking a hobby that is dying out at the same rate as those doing it is the be all and end all. I listened to someone singing a Seth Lakeman song a few months ago. Chatting later, they thought a) it was traditional and b) they had never heard of Seth, but had got the words and tune from someone who sings it. My point? Earlier in the night they had been moaning about open mic nights and how folk music was dying at pub level and dead at professional level. I use traditional influences in my own work, as do many others. Including the originators of many traditional songs. It's all entertainment. Nothing more, nothing less. It belongs to nobody and everybody. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:11 AM My apologies, that last post was mine. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:09 AM "Juat don't expect today's artistes to sit in a pub in a circle, that's what old men do.." Having spent many years listening to and visiting singers and instrumentalists who perform what I perceive as Folk Music I cannot recall one of them that described themselves as an artiste. They were mostly people who had a life to live and and a job to do and enjoyed music and song when time allowed. I am wary of people who think of themselves as artistes, and sitting in a circle seems quite logical if you are singing/playing with others, it's easier to communicate and interact but I guess that I am thinking of people getting together for the pleasure of it rather than "artistes". |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: ripov Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:34 PM Disregarding the entertaining and sometimes amusing and informative side-threads, I still think you all have it backwards. Music is primarily a mode of self expression. The concept of performing (or entertaining others) comes afterwards. And music becomes traditional because it is, OF ITSELF, enjoyable, entertaining; so that people want to play it, or listen to it; and so it is passed on from one person to another by whatever means they choose to employ. This is not to say thay anyone performing it should not do so to the best of their ability, to give the most pleasure to those hearing it, but this is common to any activity, not just traditional music. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Airymouse Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:03 PM Aw shucks. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Phil Edwards Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:58 PM Before baths were widespread, most people (male and female) would wear a shift or smock under their outer clothes, and keep it on basically all the time - you'd live in it, sleep in it, wash yourself in it ("as far as possible") and when the time came die & be buried in it. You would basically never be "naked as the day you were born" - and when somebody was described as being naked, this would often mean "stripped right down to their smock". That's how I envisage the 'naked woman' in Three Jolly Butchers/Sportsmen - in an apparently humiliating & vulnerable position, but not actually starkers by our standards. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Airymouse Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:11 PM In his "A Browser's Dictionary," John Ciardi maintains that "stark naked' means butt-ass naked rather than totally naked. Perhaps this makes the image more compelling. |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Vic Smith Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:58 PM (Ahem.... I'll try that post again) .. perhaps there should be more nudity in folk music...??? Anything to oblige.... especially if it gives me the opportunity to link to the 1953 Lomax/Kennedy recording at The Blaxhall Ship of an relatively unknown singer who, in my opinion, is one of the finest of the old English traditional pub singers. Here with the compelling image that - He found a woman stark naked - is Bob Scarce singing 'Three Jolly Sportsmen' and if one person who hasn't heard Bob sing before can listen to it and appreciate the majesty of his singing then this thread will have served its purpose. Lots of other magnificent singing and playing on that website, by the way.... |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: Vic Smith Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:44 PM .. perhaps there should be more nudity in folk music...??? Anything to oblige. I |
|
Subject: RE: traditional music is for entertaining From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:19 PM .. perhaps there should be more nudity in folk music...??? |
| Share Thread: |