Tech: using tablet on stage

Subject: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: BK
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:15 AM

I noticed a performer last year using a tablet [computer] for song words on stage the way we use a 3 ring binder. It looked dramatically easier than my awkward system. [and yes, these days my set lists usually last about til get in front of the microphone] Didn't see what brand, etc he was using. I now have an android tablet with "ice cream sandwich." Does anybody know what software, etc might allow this on my android? My hundreds of song words & chords are scatterred in several desktop hard drives. They are almost all in either word perfect or open office format. [We also have a new but extremely cheap laptop running 8.1 but no touch screen, etc..] Any ideas?

Thanx, BK

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:35 AM

Olive Office. And it's free.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:48 AM

How about learning the words?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM

I have all my lyrics on my iPad, for easy reference while learning songs and refreshing my memory when necessary, and for my set-lists. I use Onsong, which is excellent. There was talk of a version of Onsong for Android, you could try googling it?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:24 AM

When I do a performance, I have the lyrics to twenty or so songs memorized. And I know about 300 songs I can sing for kids, and maybe 300 hymns. When I'm at a singaround, I like to try a wider variety of songs, and don't always know the lyrics perfectly. I've been using an Amazon Kindle Fire for such situations, and it works well at a reasonable cost.

Big Mick has a stand for his iPad that looks like a music stand, and seems to work very well. There is specific lyrics software available for iPads, but I don't want to pay the price of an iPad. But the iPad software looks terrific.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM

There was a time when our old bass player took certain tablets before going on stage. He still does to a degree. They tend to be of the sanatogen variety these days though, according to his mate ...

I have started learning / relearning songs using the iPad rather than sheets of paper. I must look at On song but for now just put them as PDF in iBooks. They are then also available as a quick reminder on the iPhone before singing them when out and about.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:22 AM

Pretty much my MO too, Joe. I feel no shame that I need to prompt my memory on songs I don't sing very often! :-)

The 'transpose' function is useful in that, where you have the chords included on lyric-pages, you can hit the 'transpose' slider and hey-presto, all the chords are changed to the new key!

The 'Set-List' function in Onsong is very useful indeed, and has the bonus that, as you move through the list, the lyrics are there behind it in case of critical memory-failure.

I have a Konig & Meyer mount which enables me to either mount the iPad holder direct on a straight mic-stand, or use the bracket to side-mount it on a boom-type mic-stand.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:24 AM

I knew I could drag you kicking and screaming into the 21st century, Muskie!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:34 AM

"the way we use a 3 ring binder."
Whence the difference?
Both show a lack of commitment and a disregard for the song and the listener - not worth learning properly and not worth putting in the work to entertain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM

Why not use an i-Pad player and plug it into the sound system and just play recordings of the songs - right every time then coupled with amazing consistency.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:21 AM

Mobile Sheets is a useful app for Android specifically designed for organising sheet music and songs. If you buy the full version (not expensive) it comes with a free PC program to help index and transfer the files.

Nevertheless I'm with Jim in disapproving of its use on stage.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: BobL
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:27 AM

My song repertoire is so limited that I can sing them all from memory. However, may I draw a parallel with calling dances?

I have over 5000 dances in my library, of which I've actually ever called about 800. Of these, I could probably do about 40-50 from memory, and maybe the same number again after a quick reminder. The rest I have to mug up as necessary. Unfortunately my mind has been known to go blank at critical moments...

    Rule #1 for callers: Know your material so well that you don't need a crib card.
    Rule #0: Always have your crib card to hand anyway.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:05 AM

That's strange, I've read and re-read the OP several times, and I don't see anywhere where he/she asked for the permission of the Mudcat Band of Self-Appointed Arbiters of What Is And Is Not Permissible For Performers to use his/her tablet as an aide-memoire when he/she is performing.

In fact, he/she doesn't need the permission of the MBoS-AAoWI&INPFP, so why drag up all the old, worn-out red-herrings about 'respect for songs' and 'disapproval' (a.k.a. 'self-opinionated bullshit)?

The OP asked for help with using his/her tablet, some of us are trying to help him/her. Why don't the members of the MBoS-AAoWI&INPFP bugger off and start their own thread where they can opine to their hearts' content, and those of us left here can attempt to help the OP with his/her questions?

Please? Pretty please?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:06 AM

I find it useful to have my tablet to use in some singaround sessions I go to where we all join in--I can have the chords and words to songs I do not play often and can find them quickly. We also use them at church so that we all have all the songs in the same arrangements.

I use Songbook, a very cheap but functional piece of software (and you can try it free), that is available for mac, windows and android. It uses the standard chordpro format, and has a utility that will convert "chords above text" style to chordpro format easily (but watch if you import from a text editor that the chords line up properly as it will change the font to a non-proportional one first).

For church, we also use a common, shared dropbox account as Songbook will automatically sync with one. Also nice that it will scroll long songs for you (you can set the rate).

One caveat: I use android and windows versions (I find it easier to edit on my laptop) and have different directories set up for my folk and church music, but I haven't yet been able to find an easy way to do that on an iPad, but then I don't use one so have only tried helping someone who does.

You can find the software here

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:26 AM

Yeah. You will always get the stupid ignorant prats chipping in. Tell 'em to piss off.

Here's the thing. If I perform I perform. No crib etc. Now, relate that into going to a singaround and if you go regularly you soon repeat yourself.

I reckon on about 60 songs I feel I could entertain people with. Another hundred or so I can sing but wouldn't feel a paying audience would deserve. But there are also songs I don't recall all the words to or have a mental block with.

That's where the iPhone comes in for a glance before I get up and the iPad attached to the mic stand when I am learning and recording. (The iPad also remote-controls Logic Pro on the iMac.)

I am coming round to the idea of occasionally getting help with words in singarounds despite everything as it will give me an opportunity to share songs I love but not learning to be part of my "set".

That said, those who sit flicking through their ring binder whilst others are singing are still the spawn of Satan and will be first up against the wall come the glorious revolution.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:26 AM

I've noticed this trend with the younger element who come to our open mike nights. They have the special holder which clips to the mike stand as well. When I go to Greece I put about 60 songs on my kindle from my own lyrics database as the repertoire Yorgos leads in the taverna is more pop based than my blues/skiffle one, if he's sung a song I don't know I look up the words for the following year- inevitably he's then changed his set! Then it's the kazoo or nothing.
I am often surprised that teenagers who've only written a few songs still need to have their own words in front of them.
(Cynically this old grouch would say they are unmemorable, that's why!)

RtS

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:42 AM

A lot of my friends now use tablets or iPads for both songs and sheet music: one of them has a foot-operated "page-turner" for music scores that are more than one page long, tho she did say that device cost almost as much as the tablet.
For any instrumental concerts we do with a pre-decided set list, I insist that everyone puts all the (relevant only) sheet music (if they need it as some do) in set list order in a single folder - a pretty basic request but apparently an alien concept to some! No frantic shuffling thro several folders to find the right pieces, or worse still, piles of loose paper that inevitably scatter themselves randomly all over the floor and hold us all up while disarray and disorganisation is on show and restored to order!
I have an iPad and would like to transfer more stuff on to it, either to iBooks or Pages, but seems it's one file at a time. Is there a way of transferring whole sub-folders in a one-er? Maybe some of the suggested software above can do it?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:48 AM

If you use iCloud with Pages, (which is how Apple intend) you can drop whole folders into your cloud on your desktop machine and Pages will see them.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:49 AM

Musket - I'd rather they flicked through their ring-binders and hummed-and-hawed about which song to do next while others are singing, than perform the process when it's their turn and everyone has to wait five minutes while they make their momentous decision!

Mind you, it gives us time for leak-taking and next-pint-acquisition! 😃👍

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:52 AM

I use Dropbox to move stuff from my Windows PC to my iPad and Android phone. Just drop the files you wish to transfer into your Dropbox folder on your PC, and pull them in via Dropbox on the mobile device(s).

Piece of piss!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:01 AM

Yeah, but it does make you wonder if they think everybody has only turned up to hear their offerings. It also answers the question, are you here to listen?

Dropbox with Windows, true. iCloud with Macs. Sorry, I was being presumptuous. (I also use Dropbox for other things though.)

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

I mentioned |Songbook but forgot to add that it has a setlist function (though they call it playlist). These will also sync through dropbox, which makes things even easier.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:22 AM

I can read and listen at the same time! Mmmmm, I can multi-task - am I a woman?
Don't answer that! 😃

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:22 AM

Mrs Musket says "put Masterchef on." Ok, I say, about to sit there bored. She then "watches" Masterchef whilst playing solitaire or Angry Birds on her iPad whilst having a conversation with me thus; "I thought you were staying in tonight? Don't you like Masterchef? Take your bloody key with you then and be quiet when you get back."

Multi tasking isn't just a woman thing. When I wake up, I can rub my eyes, stretch and scratch my bollocks simultaneously. I can also sing and give the evil eye treatment to readers......

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:50 AM

More people are using these and I guess they will become commonplace in lieu of paper music.aanother advantage is that there are various instrument apps that allow music for example, guitar, to be created and edited.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:14 AM

How many people here have gone to a classical music concert of any sort? OK, you can all go back to lowering your hands and sitting on them.

Why is it perfectly acceptable for those who perform the "high art" to have the words or music in front of them while those of us who perform the "low art" end of the scale get censured for it? Music is music. If he were still alive, would you ask Monet to paint without his model/pond in front of him? Get over it.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:25 AM

Personally, I would far, far rather listen to someone sing a song with the words/music in front of them and make a good job of it, than suffer through someone's attempt to do so from memory if it has stops, slips and pauses in it!

I remember being very disappointed the first time I saw Steve Tilston in concert at a festival--He forgot words and just seemed very ill-prepared. Give me someone singing a good interpretation with confidence any day of the week, even if it takes an aide memoir.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:27 AM

Hi BK. I use my iPad for storing all my songs used an APP "GoodReader for iPad" which I believe was free. I find transferring songs from my Mac quite easy, I also keep a copy of someone else singing the songs I song, just to remind me of the tune. I use my iPad when I sing as I have a problem with memory, which according to the medical profession will not get better but will get worse, obviously if I need to listen to the tune this is done well before I sing. There is as previously mentioned "Songbook" which has a couple of advantages if you need them, which I don't. These are that you can get the words to scroll at a speed set by yourself and you can obtain music and keys etc to assist, useful if you accompany yourself on an instrument.
Hope this is helpful and good luck.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:14 AM

I'm a 'affordable new technology is great when used effectively' sort of bloke...

So sod the old moaning miseries...

I've aquired three 7" android tablets, and a couple of nokia lumia windows phones.

My problem is I can't see well enough to read anything on any of them.
I need a much larger screen, bifocal lenses, or separate reading glasses...

Oh well.. middle age is a bastard.. right now it's eyesight and memory on the blink,
hopefully nothing else important is going to stop functioning properly
before I reach 60...

My biggest complaint is that even if extortionately priced apple ipads are superior for musicians,
and the currently accepted 'industry standard',
affordable android is catching up..

But the big music gear companies are still aiding & abetting apple's monopoly
by refusing to issue apps for android.

eg, apps for interfacing with Korg and Zoom products..

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:32 AM

Varifocals, PFR - the One True Path! 👍😜

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:36 AM

I'm with Windhover Weaver on this one, I've never had a problem with anyone using any form of aide memoire as long as it does not detract from the performance. You can get neat tablet holders that attach to mike stands and are quite discrete.

Personally, I don't use anything like that, largely because I'm far too vain to appear on stage with my glasses on, so I've got no choice to learn everything. Of course, being human, there is the odd slip up, but how you handle that is down to stagecraft, a favourite line of mine is to tell the audience that if they really want to know what happens in verse 3, they will just have to buy a CD!

very valid points from EBarnacle above, why is using words/music acceptable in some styles and not in others?

John

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

Performing from a score is a specific skill, if you have acquired it then it doesn't detract from your performance. The problem is the people who:
1. Use the score as an alternative to practice
2. Perform to their notebook rather than to the audience.
Both faults which I haven't seen at classical music concerts but have at folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

I try to learn my songs, but I do have a problem retaining those which I don't sing very often, so I take my iPad to singarounds etc., but try to use it as little as possible.

If I'm 'appearing', either solo or with the band, I have the iPad mounted on my mic stand and use it for my set lists (far better than writing on the back of one's hand, or trying to read a scrap of paper on the floor!). The beauty is that Onsong displays the lyrics to each song in the set-list, in the correct order, so if I 'dry' (and it happens more and more frequently as my 67 year-old brain farts more and more readily) I have a lifeline.

I have no problems with an aide-memoire being used by anyone - far preferable to squirming with embarrassment at a singer's discomfiture during that seemingly-interminable period when he or she is frantically trying to remember the forgotten lyrics, often in vain! But I dislike it intensely when people have clearly made absolutely no attempt to memorise any of their material, and read every line of every song, head down, eyes glued to their loose-leaf binder, and making no attempt to make even the briefest of eye contact with their audience.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 11:06 AM

"Dislike it intensely". Mmmmmm........

A bad choice of words there, I'll rephrase it - "I'm saddened when it's perfectly clear that people have made no attempt.......etc.".

But I believe that anyone who performs should be free to do it in whatever way they feel most comfortable. The most 'disrespectful' thing that can happen to any song is that it not be sung at all.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 11:52 AM

Punkfolkrocker: One great advantage of an app like Songbook (over both paper and PDF readers) is that they can re-size the text on the fly without any need to scroll right-left (impossible if you are playing too). I use a 10" tablet (rather than a 7") I got cheap second-hand and find I can set it to be seen clearly by my old eyes in any setting.

As for iPads being superior, I see no advantage if you are using a tablet just as a song storage/display device. Since I don't do anything with interfaced instruments, I would just be paying extra for useless (to me) extras.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:50 PM

ha ha i have a piano on my blackberry tablet and think i can get an accordian as well..soon i will have an orchestra...

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:35 PM

Cards on table.

Back when no bugger I ever saw used a folder to sing from, back when they were Folk clubs in the real sense, most of us had crib sheets stuck onto guitars anyway..

I had been playing years in folk clubs before I saw someone singing from a piece of paper in a folder. Saw many grab a look first but many folk clubs were stage settings then, so nowhere to put a folder anyway.

I agree with the guest who berates the idea of singing "cold" rather than attempting to get to know a song, sniff its bum etc. Good singers can't do that so why others think they can is beyond me. Remember, nobody in a sing around is annoyed if you can't sing very well or struggle with instruments, your enthusiasm is what counts. But expecting people to sit enthralled whilst you plainly have no idea of what you are singing or have never addressed it?

Here's a fairly contentious thought. The dominance of sing around has been good for enthusiastic people who have little natural talent but has been a disaster for those who may have improved immensely under a more professional atmosphere. Let's face it, we all wouldn't mind getting it right more?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:37 PM

Aaaahh-yup!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: IamNoMan
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:06 PM

"I'm with Windhover Weaver on this one, I've never had a problem with anyone using any form of aide memoire as long as it does not detract from the performance."

The sad thing is it does detract from a performance. As a performer you want the audience to pay attention to you. Sure everybody crashes and burns from time to time; but that too is something a performer needs to learn to deal with. As an audience member I get distracted and sometimes annoyed when my focus shifts to a music stand and associated paraphernalia.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:12 PM

"The dominance of sing around has been good for enthusiastic people who have little natural talent but has been a disaster for those who may have improved immensely under a more professional atmosphere."

Spot on, Musket!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

Backwoodsman, I'm with you. When I first saw the thread title, I wondered how long it would take for some folk purist to step up and assert that songs must be memorized. It came on the third message.

The alternative, I guess, is for us to satisfy the purists and sing the same ten songs all our lives.

I think rather than having to follow a bunch of rules, the best thing to do is to do the best you can to present a song to the people hearing it. I notice that Lomax and Sharp and others collected songs from people who were not always the best singers, and who did not always remember lyrics perfectly. But these singers sang the songs the best they could - and carried on the tradition so we have it now.

O you mighty purists, don't condemn other singers for what you see as their shortcomings - listen to them, even if they aren't as good as you think you are.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

Thanks Joe, that's a sensible viewpoint.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:14 PM

For me the problem is use of words with little preparation beforehand.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:30 PM

Thanks for the tips re transferring files and folders to iPad: obviously don't use iCloud and Dropbox enough!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: MickyMan
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:06 PM

Last week my music major college boy son was having serious problems in his opera workshop class. The music was very complex and he had lots of trouble emoting his character while he sang ...... until he realized that when the opera was staged his character would be sitting and reading a magazine all through the song. A few well placed notes and the director was singing his praises! He ended up hardly even looking at them, but it gave him the confidence he needed to add more to the performance.
It wasn't a tablet, but it served the same purpose! LOL!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:29 PM

I have to have notes when I give a speech, or else I fall apart. Most of the time, I leave the notes on the podium and step closer to my audience - but I have to have those notes nearby for security. Admit it - performing before an audience is stressful, and it sometimes helps to have crutches.

When we sing songs, we should indeed know them thoroughly - but it is often helpful to have notes to fall back on when memory fails us. It's really awkward when a singer forgets a verse and starts over from the beginning....again, and again, and again.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:10 PM

pssst... don't tell the folk club fundamentalists...

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/stageprompter-display-lyrics-chords-and-scores-553470/


"Stageprompter: display lyrics, chords and scores..

.. Many top artists employ PCs, autocue software and off stage operators pressing the down arrow key.
Strategically hidden flat screens supply the words, chords, and even music score.
It's time the rest of us throw away the paper and bad memory's and move up a gear.

The Times Online featured an article, naming many top artists that used some form of complex autocue system.
This practice has remained largely hidden for many years, but who can blame them.
Now a simple solution for all has been found...

... Staffords on Stage, a Cambridge based technology company has come up with the answer.
The Stageprompter, a computer-less solution that features a 22" colour screen, hidden in a floor wedge monitor.
Your lyrics, chords, music score, or anything you want, are saved as images on a memory stick
and displayed on the screen.
Using a foot switch, you move through your prompts at your own pace.
Complete with its own optional flight case, it is designed to handle the rigour of gigging,
roadies and touring transport."

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:19 PM

ps.. a little application of basic DIY skills,
and it should not be too difficult to cobble together a similar 'word memory box' on the cheap.....

hmmm.. a tablet with an HDMI output, a long HDMI cable, and a flat screen monior hidden inside a guitar case..

.. and an offstage accomplice scrolling the words on the tablet for maybe a few free pints..

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 03:53 AM

"I have to have notes when I give a speech, "
There is a big difference between speaking from notes and reading the entire text of the speech.

Public speaking courses teach you not to have the entire text in front of you as you end up looking at the text rather than the audience.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 05:34 AM

Public speaking is good comparison. I never work from a script when giving lectures or addressing a conference etc, as, just like everyone else, I don't write as I speak. I am like many people in that I may never look at my notes but if they weren't there, I'd probably do a Miliband. Notes are bullet points of what I need to get across. Bad enough that students don't see my bit as a core subject and conferences, I am usually the warm up for those they have really come to hear and challenge.

Same with the piece of paper stuck to my guitar. It may have the first line of verses, or a few words I tend to get wrong, but rarely the whole song.

But..

Yes, I have been known to use lyrics, even my iPad before now, in a sing around. Not easy as for other reasons, I have problems sitting and playing, I tend to stand.

I think we are somehow confusing singing with performing. As a listener at a concert, you have expectations of the performer, including body language, ease of delivery and a good performer makes you feel they are addressing you, not a crib sheet. When I was in rock bands, yeah, the running order, keys, which effects pedal etc may have been taped to the floor or on my foldback speaker.

This thread has the words "on stage" in the title. it therefore isn't an excuse for another thread concerning mumbling into a book at a sing around?