Tech: using tablet on stage

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:29 AM

"They engage directly with the audiences they sing to."
Right on, with this - I cannot recall a singer who has been successful in interpreting a song from the printed page - this, as poetry reading, is a skill in itself requiring much practice!!
It is, in my opinion, what makes folk song and the folk scene unique.
The folk scene has been bedeviled by 'amateurism' in the form of a 'near enough for folk song' approach which manifests itself in singing that falls below an acceptable standard, out-of-tune accompaniment and by singers not knowing their songs well enough to sing them without having to read them.
I don't find it easy to learn songs; I never really have, but having reached a 'certain age', the process has become more difficult, so I have been forced to limit myself to the number of new songs I take on if I am going to perform them in public.
When I see younger singers reading songs in public I have to assume that they haven't put in the work in order not to have to do this, so why sing if you can't be bothered or don't have time.
If you are genuinely unable to remember songs, perhaps singing in public is not for you (singing among intimate friends who are prepared to accept your problem is a different matter).
When thse arguments come up I'm always reminded of the Monty Python sketches of the one-legged actor applying for the role of Tarzan and the man with double vision wishing to lead the expedition to scale the 'twin peaks of Mount Everest'
Learning songs to sing in public takes work, some of us have to work harder than others to do so - as far as I am concerned, the songs I want to sing are worth it, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
Most of us are amateurs - 'amateurism' is something else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:42 AM

"....using tablet on stage.."

NOT for the lead singer(s)!!!..I know it's handy, and the back support musicians, maybe....but I prefer NOT to see them, OR notebooks..NOR do I use any of them.
That being said, if someone wants to use them, go ahead....but it smacks of less preparation, by the show and artists.

GfS

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:08 AM

Ever seen Springsteen live? Think he's 'unprepared' or that his show displays 'amateurism'?

He plays a three-hour, non-stop set to five-figure audiences (40,000 when I saw him at the Ricoh, Coventry last year) - more at one go than many of us will play to in a lifetime - he has the audience in the palm of his hand. He's a staggeringly good, jaw-droppingly exciting performer.

Springsteen, in common with virtually all of the current top-line performers, uses a stage - floor monitor to display his sets and lyrics, and 40,000 highly-delighted and deliriously satisfied punters at Coventry didn't give a Flyin' F**k.

If it's good enough for The Boss, and good enough for the vast numbers of people he plays to, it'll do for me. If Don or Jim and a few other old farts don't like it, frankly I don't give a damn, my dear.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:20 AM

"Sorry about that, but that's the way it's done. I don't make the rules..."

Exactly, Don! These threads always seem to put the crib sheet advocates on the defensive and they start throwing wild accusations around about having 'rules' imposed on them. But it's not about rules, it's about taste and standards of performance. In addition, experience suggests that crib sheet users tend not to progress beyond the 'beginner' stage. Personally, I find that my patience begins to wear thin when I find myself listening to a singer whose performances are no more bearable, or worth listening to, than they were 5 or 6 years ago!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:23 AM

"Ever seen Springsteen live?"
Not really - doubt if I could afford a ticket, even if I wanted one (which I don't), but it's beside the point anyway.
Springsteen is a highly professional singer with highly developed skilled, which he (presumably) has worked on to acquire - very few people are in that position so we have to work at it.
What is being put forward here is an argument for not working at or being unable to sing songs without having to read it (wonder if the people putting up these arguments would put up the same arguments for dyslexics or illiterates being allowed to get up and sing gibberish in public because they are unable to read??)
If being "an old fart" means we apply standards to the songs we love and believe they are worth working at, long live old fartism!!
Not being prepared to put in the work is indicative on a contempt for the songs and the audiences as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:38 AM

As I said, the boss uses prompts, he doesn't address his prompts. Neither do you nor many others. I look down at the piece of paper stuck to the guitar occasionally if I have one, but like most of us, have a very good idea of the next line anyway so can concentrate on delivery.

The use of books, of which tablets are a type anyway has led to three things in my opinion, and it is merely my opinion;

1. It has allowed singers to use a wider repetoire than memory allows. This is useful if the singer can project a song regardless and still play to the audience, not the book.

2. It has allowed people to become involved where hitherto they were concerned they would blank if they got up on the "stage" that folk clubs in general used to employ. I know many people who used to just come to listen who, now singarounds are more popular feel confident to join in.

3. All the bad points made by others tend to apply, sadly. Many people do sing into their book and become engrossed with what they are staring at, and may not be aware that the sound others are hearing ain't what they hear. If I learn, say, a Vin Garbutt song, then whilst I am reading the lyrics on the page, my brain hears Vin. Once the book is no longer there, I hear my voice. Your audience hears your voice anyway.

4. (My perogative.). Many of those content to mumble and read without attempt to improve may well be happy in their skin, but it just means I drink more as I nip to the bar more. They encourage heavy drinking and that is socially reprehensible!

Anyway, the thread is about tablets on stage. I haven't used my latest toy yet but I have an interface to control my Mackie mixer and a number of effects via my ipad. I'm going to play with it later. I am playing at a fund raising concert next month where I get to take my full pa so can't wait to have a play.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 06:57 AM

Yep, I don't disagree with anything you say, Musket, and I think it's pretty much what I've said all the way through this thread - electronic prompts or ring-binders or paper stuck to guitars or working totally from memory, all have their place. But there's still a need to perform, and the readers need to practice the art of performing even if they feel bound to their crutches.

Whatever Sunny Jim says is his way, and therefore the Only True Path, I refuse to talk about people doing what they enjoy in the way they can as being 'contemptuous' or 'disrespectful'.

As I've said on here before, the most contemptuous or disrespectful thing that can be done to a song is not to sing it at all. Hopefully, the Old Farts can agree to that)😎

I'm done. Got a couple of songs to learn.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 07:58 AM

"Whatever Sunny Jim says is his way, and therefore the Only True Path,"
Got a bit tired of this type of unqualified and insulting dismissal of ideas people don't agree with - you think what I say, show I'm wrong with argument, not insult.
I spent forty-odd years of my life recording "old farts" who gave us us hundreds of songs without once having to read the words (the repertoires of some of them stretched int the dozens, even hundreds)   
At present we are recording a 94 year-old-fart who has given us a couple of dozen songs so far, long ballads included, some of which he hasn't sung for over half a century - I doubt if his failing eyesight would enable him to read a spring binder or a tablet, should he need to; so far, he hasn't had to.
"Old fart" - With a little refreshment work I can remember the words of over 300 songs without having to resort to tablets or spring-binders - you apparently can't - come back with your "old farts" when you can and don't inflict your inabilities and laziness on audiences who turn up to expect to find singers who know what they are singing without having to refer to a script - do your practicing at home, not on stage.   
When I was a kid I used to go off to the local Saturday matinee to see flash Gordon and The Three Stooges - the show occasionally included a cartoon illustrated song with words running underneath and a little ball bouncing on them so we could all sing along - I grew out of things like that when I was about ten - you apparently haven't got to that stage yet.
It is most certainly not "disrespectful" not to sing the songs - not being prepared to put in the time and effort into singing the properly and getting up in front of an audience and singing them anyway - that's what I call disrespect - if you can't be arsed, don't bother and leave them to those who are willing to put in the work - the songs really are worth more than being read in public.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:06 AM

94 eh? Does the top of his trousers muffle his voice?

Here Jim, you dismiss many songs, especially those you call pop yet you say some songs, what you call folk deserve respect. What if an old bloke crooning out of tune isn't your cup of tea but Thin Lizzy doing Whiskey in the Jar is?

This is about using technology on stage. If you have anything to offer on that Jim, let's hear it. if it isn't within your experience, stick to telling us what MacColl said we should be doing.. Preferably on threads set up for that purpose.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:14 AM

Oh shit. Did I just post that?

Sound the air raid siren...

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:37 AM

"What if an old bloke crooning out of tune isn't your cup of tea but Thin Lizzy doing Whiskey in the Jar is?"
Rather arrogant assumption if you haven't actually heard those singers, doncha think?
The rest is either a different argument or and attempt to wiggle out of the unanswerable - if you can't, please don't tell me where I can post - you've apparently caught the infection from somebody else we both know
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:41 AM

Thinking about it isn't it more than a little 'one rule for one' telling me that discussing the use of printed texts is 'off topic' yet intoducing 'Thin Lizzie' as folk - gi' us a break Jimmy, can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:15 AM

Jim, the OP didn't ask for permission - mine, yours or anyone else's - to use his tablet, and he didn't ask if it was viwed as acceptable. He asked for advice on the best ways to maximise the benefits he perceives it would provide him. I'd guess his decision is already made as to whether or not to use his tablet, so what point is there in rabbiting on about 'respect' or 'contempt'?

Would you walk up to a mediocre singer in a music venue and say, "I'm a better performer than you"? I doubt you would, but pontificating on here to the OP (and others) about how you learn your songs, how you would never lower yourself to using a prompt, how using a prompt is disrespectful, contemptuous etc., is the same as doing precisely that.

You might think it's OK to put people down like that, but some people, me included, don't. It's rude, and it's unnecessary.

If you put people down, telling them they're disrespectful and contemptuous, because they don't perform the way you think they should, don't be surprised or offended when someone calls you out over it.

Now, back to learning songs...........

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:19 AM

Ah Musket, try this site for some of the fine old Irish singers. No paper or tablets here I'll be bound.

ITMA
Who could forget The cow that went astray, the family Ointment song and that traditional classic, Dark as a Dungeon.
John

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:45 AM

"When thse arguments come up I'm always reminded of the Monty Python sketches of the one-legged actor applying for the role of Tarzan . . ."

I think you mean Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:09 AM

"I'd guess his decision is already made as to whether or not to use his tablet, so what point is there in rabbiting on about 'respect' or 'contempt'?"
"Would you walk up to a mediocre singer in a music venue and say"
Of course I wouldn't - I'm not a particularly good performer anyway, but even if I were, I wouldn't - why should you suggest I would?
If you believe my suggesting that a singer learn his or her songs sufficiently to not have to read them in front of an audience is equivalent to suggesting that I am a better singer, I'm afraid we're attempting to communicate in different languages
If he were to try to sing with a sock in his mouth, I might venture to suggest he take it out, but nothing beyond that
Us old farts come from a time when singers were able to get up and sing songs without paper or electronic props - doesn't say a great deal for today's performers if that is no longer the case
Are you suggesting I shouldn't express my views at a practice I believe detrimental to the music I'm involved in?
"I think you mean Peter Cook and Dudley Moore."
I believe you're correct - thanks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: meself
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:44 AM

When I was 'coming up', every singer that I admired and tried to emulate sang from memory or improvised if memory failed. Similarly, every instrumentalist I admired and tried to emulate played from memory (except for the occasional jazz musician glancing at a chart), improvising if memory failed.

Just an observation; you are free of course to do anything you want, as long as it's legal.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:05 AM

Jim, for the love of whomever or whatever it is you worship, you're doing your usual nonsense of distorting anything that's said to you in a vain attempt to 'win'. As you very well know (and if you don't, you're a plank, but I don't believe you are a plank - I believe you're a pathological word-twister who will stop at nothing in order to try to force your opinions on others.

I didn't 'suggest you would'......I used that as a means of demonstrating how your constant bleating of the "I learn my songs", and "I would never disrespect a song..." dogmatic stuff contains an inference that you're somehow 'better' than someone who uses a prompt-device.

Now for once, give it a bloody rest. As is ever the case when you get involved, you're sounding like a cracked record and it's losing its charm. Why can't those who are interested in the use of technology in the arts have a discussion about it without Old Farts jumping in with 'advice' that's irrelevant to the topic and outside the scope of what the OP asked? If you have some technical expertise in the field of technology, let's hear it. But if you're just being a miserable old curmudgeon who resents change, why not keep out of it? You'd be a lot happier, and so would some of the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:10 AM

"Bonzo3legs Why not just use a sat-nav then you would n't have to take your eyes off the road"

Because a sat-nav will not provide up to date changes in traffic flow, and more importantly which lane to use, which believe me is very important through central London!!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:33 AM

"." dogmatic stuff contains an inference that you're somehow 'better' than someone who uses a prompt-device. "
Which is repeating what you've just denied.
I'm getting a little pissed off at having people who can and do manage without a tablet or ring binder being called insulting (not to mention ageist names by somebody who can't - or won't.
I've maid my points about using scripts (of any form) in front of an audience, so have others - answer those points rather than descending into personal abuse.
And don't tell me where I should post or what I should say - talk about folk police.... sheesh!!! (though I have no doubt that the phrase comes easily enough to your own fingertips)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:51 AM

"Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

Performing from a score is a specific skill, if you have acquired it then it doesn't detract from your performance. The problem is the people who:
1. Use the score as an alternative to practice
2. Perform to their notebook rather than to the audience.
Both faults which I haven't seen at classical music concerts but have at folk clubs."
I thought this was a very good post

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:57 AM

Bonzo3legs I could reply to your comment as I was a car delivery driver(who went into Central London) but I think this thread is just going round in circles and not answering the original posters request for help so I'm not going to send it off on another tangent

Best Wishes

Gerry

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:04 PM

Jim, you know nothing about me, whether I can play, or sing without a tablet, or a ring-binder, or a piece of paper stuck on my guitar, or even sing at all, so knock that crap off.

I choose to have an aide-memoire at sing-arounds which I have to refer to occasionally, as I find my memory doesn't work so well nowadays, and I choose to use a tablet for that purpose - my prerogative, fuck all to do with you. If I'm 'appearing' (rarely nowadays) I do so without a safety net (but with my set list on my tablet instead of a shitty scrap of paper). Again, my business, not yours.

I've stated here on this thread several times that I believe memorisation is best, but that if memory is a problem and a singer needs a reminder, he or she should practice using it in a way that is as unaobtrusive as possible. I'd far rather songs are sung with hard-copy lyrics than not be sung at all. My view, equally as valid as yours.

And when you stop your constant spoiling tactics of distorting what others say, then you'll be in a position to criticise others. As it is, you're not.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:30 PM

"Jim, you know nothing about me"
And I don't attempt to criticise you =-my points have all been comments on the use of printed or electronic scripts in front of an audience, nothing more - no crap to knock off.
You, on the other hand have chosen to prevent my making my points and suggesting that mine and other's age ("old farts") prohibit us from commenting on the practice.
Your personal idiosyncrasies and perversions are, as you say, your own business; if you don't want them commented on, don't bring them to a public forum (whatever they may be).
We're all prone to lapses of memory and forgetting words - from this and other threads and from personal observation, this practice has become both common and acceptable - I find the practice both disrespectful to audiences and to the song tradition - I also believe that, in many cases, it is unnecessary.
Now, where id I put my Philosan!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:44 PM

The tuba player in our klezmer group is also the guy who does most of the transcribing (from barely listenable old archive recordings on 78s and cylinders). So he turns up every meeting with a couple of new pieces, or new-since-1920-or-thereabouts. The rest of us get them on paper, he's taken to using a tablet. His software isn't that great for it, since the scores it generates have way too much whitespace and staffs that are far too small. But he can read it. If he couldn't, we'd be out of a bass line, because nobody could memorize stuff that fast.

Like a lot of exotic-foreign-stuff groups, it's never very clear whether we're holding a session or a rehearsal, but we always welcome an audience. We're good enough that we can combine sightreading, rehearsed score reading, memory playing and just plain busking it, while making it fun to listen to. The audience won't know which is going on. (I might have a page of score in front of me, but is it for the piece we're currently doing, one we did half an hour ago, or one we might do later in the evening? You won't have any way of telling).

Do I care what somebody who can't imagine this sort of event might think? Guess.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:22 PM

There you go, twisting words again, Jim - you really can't help yourself can you?

I enjoy discussion, but there's no pleasure in arguing for the sake of it with someone who is prepared to stoop to such tactics in order to push his dogma.

Just once, Jim, try listening to and answering the points others make, instead of putting words in their mouths, and continually repeating the dogma. Just once. Until you learn to do that, I've nothing else to say to you.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:32 PM

"Just once, Jim, try listening to and answering the points others make, "
Just said that - try your own advice - ditto to the last bit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:55 PM

Thank fuck for that.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:10 PM

I've heard two folk bands (playing traditional dance music) recently. I heard them play, on successive days, on opposite sides of the country. Members of one band played from a score while the other lot played from memory. I found the first band to be a bit dull and mechanical but the second band had real 'soul' (for want of a better word) and their playing was exciting and fun to listen to. The sad thing is that I know members of both bands and also know that they have similar levels of technical competence and ability.

With singers it's a bit different. In my experience, singers who rely on a cribsheet (paper or digital) are far too often crap - and never get any better. On the other hand, singers who sing from memory can (obviously) be crap - but often they improve with time, mainly, I assume, because they're putting the work in.

Finally, let's be brutally honest, I DO NOT want to spend my evenings listening to souless crap!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:43 PM

The usual determiner of whether a dance music band uses sheet music is how large their repertoire is. No band playing for SCD could memorize everything they'll be asked to do.

Something else that drives the need for a written score is increasingly complicated arrangements. It's a trend you can't do much about, but a band that needs to stand out may well push the limits of what they can remember in chordings and bass lines, even for standard ceilidh band material which works for dancing in much simpler styles. And once they've got one set fixed in their heads it'll be time to move on to another one.


I DO NOT want to spend my evenings listening to souless crap!

And that's what you're dismissing the OP as? How the fuck would you know?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:42 PM

In the latter days of when our band was most active,
rehearsing together was impractical due to all living spread over the country.
We had a few core members, augmented by a floating ever changing lineup of mates
and new folks of the singer's acquaintance some of us might never have even met before standing on stage together....

Gigging was on the basis of last minute bookings, and an email from the singer saying
" this is when & where we are playing, who can turn up ? these are the songs I intend doing - print them off
and try to learn them "...

Then maybe a quick run through at sound check [if we had that luxury] of the old songs most of us knew,
and new ones we'd never played together before.

So yes printed sheets of the chords layed out on a chair or whatever right by our amps were absolutely essential.

The singer also had a 'Chuck Berry' style habit of slowing and speeding tempos
and improvising changes to structure during songs to play to the mood of the audience,
with out any warning to the rest of us.
So we needed to keep on our toes and try to anticipate what he might do next.

Luckily our drummer was damn good at keeping a solid beat,
and our core of the band had the experience playing together on and off since we were 15,
so we could usually cover for lack of rehearsal and the unexpected fairly well.