BS: Evita Peron - whore

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:10 PM

whose chief hidden villain was our own Central Intelligence agency and the World Bank.

As opposed to the manifest villains, Peron & company.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:14 PM

try this oldedude 

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:29 PM

Frankly, not knowing all that much about Eva Peron, I did a bit of Googling.

It seems to me that one helluva lot of people have given her a bad press, when, in actuality, she did a lot of good for a lot of people in Argentina. And although Juan Peron is often accused of being a Fascist, there seems to be little evidence that this was actually the case.

She was the poverty-stricken illegitimate daughter of a guy who had two families, one legal and one on the side. She had to live by her wits early one, became an actress and radio personality, and one thing led to another until she married Juan Peron—and had a substantial influence on his policies in terms of things that are generally regarded as liberal causes: welfare for the poor, women's rights, etc. She died early (age 33) of cancer, and is generally revered by a large number of Argentinians.

So how come she's a "whore?"

Cast an eye over the following material. Most enlightening.

CLICKY #1, and CLICKY #2.

What's the justification for such a harsh epithet?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:03 PM

I know less than nothing about her. However she was cute

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:16 PM

Cia always gets blamed for everything. In fact they get called to shovel off the shit our political leaders create. It's like being a trash collector.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:18 PM

Hello, Little Hawk. Good to hear from you. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who misses your well-considered posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:22 PM

Assuming for the purposes of discussion that she was evil and a murderess, neither of those things makes her a whore. Looks like Bongo believes that women only exist for one purpose.

The reason, IMHO, that posts are down is the toxic presence here of a limited number of members of the insane political right.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:40 PM

Lets ask our resident whore chongo what do you say there chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 02:33 AM

It's hard to know the truth about a woman so shrouded in propaganda. I generally don't think that people (particularly politicians) are half as bad as their opponents make them out to be. Apparently, Eva Peron was revered by many after her death. If she were as horrible as some say she was, why would she be so popular?
So, as in many things, I just don't know. I'd like to see a balanced, informative analysis of her.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 02:54 AM

Why would she be popular?? Because in Argentina, the mob are so easily led. How do you think the present abomination Cristina Kirshner was elected twice as president???

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:01 AM

Brief biography 

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:03 AM

Oops, reposted earlier linked material by mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Musket
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:17 AM

She can't be bad because she was revered after her death? Deja vu. Someone on another thread is saying Earl Haig wasn't the butcher of The Somme on the basis of the turnout for his funeral.

I too think the word whore in a title is wrong. Inside the thread you can perhaps try to justify your stance and again inside a thread I'd be the last person to complain about bad fucking language.

One thing I do like about this thread is whilst Little Hawk waffles on about why he thinks English contributors are the death of this website, his compatriots are talking about tasteless plastic and assuming "cheese" means the same as the word does over here.

Mind you, The Cheese Shop in Carmel CA has a rough idea to be fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:43 AM

I like jello. And jelly. And cheese - but only real cheese, not that plastic shit that Kraft are poisoning the unsuspecting unwashed with.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:51 AM

'Jello' and 'jelly' are used above in the ex-Colonial senses, of course.
In real English, the original version spoken by native Englishmen, the correct terms are 'jelly' and 'jam' respectively. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:12 AM

65 posts and no real explanation of the title. i know next to nothing about eva peron - (didn't even understand what the song was about) so was quite intrigued by the thread title. could we have a few concrete reasons to justify the insult from those who know about it? cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:32 AM

This is what I gathered from what I have read in the past, Argentines are quite uncertain about who they are from a national identity? This was made more complex by the influx of poor rural residents and immigrants to the urban areas, which changed the urban landscape (some see as in a negative way)..

My understanding is Juan Peron and his wife Eva based their political base on support from the poor rural migrants (mestizos) to the urban areas (especially Buenos Aires) . When the Perons were in power, this group gained from the Peron government. Eva Peron earned a special place in the hearts of the lower class groups, as she frequently fook a central rolen in reaching out to the poor. However, this change toward emplasizing the plight of the growing urban poor angered the influential urban middle class, the formerly politically powerful land owners and the military leaders. Eva's emphasis on promoting womens rights likely added to her dislike by those who favoured the status quo.

I welcome comments on this assessment, to give me a better (accurate) understanding of this period in Argentinas history.

Possibly because of a significant German population in Argentina, the country remained neutral for much of WW2. This, combined with long-standing strained relations and rivalry with Great Britain, added to the belief that the Peron government was sympathetic to the German war effort. It added fuel to the dislike of the Perons.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 06:22 AM

The Official Eva Peron website- Evita - The True Story of Evita Peron

bio-part 1 

Bio, part 2 

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: beeliner
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 06:55 AM

I'm certainly no expert on the political history of South American dictatorships. I remember when Eva died and my grandmother telling me what a great humanitarian she was and how she raised the living standards of the poor.

That the Peron regime was politically oppressive I have no doubt.

I was never a Madonna fan, I considered her only talent to be that of self-promotion, but a gotta admit, she was excellent as Evita.

And by the way, it's an opera, not a musical.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 07:24 AM

"The reason, IMHO, that posts are down is the toxic presence here of a limited number of members of the insane political right".

The reason, IMHO, that posts are down is because of comments like the above by intolerant "intellectual socialists" who try to deny anyone else the right to an opinion.

Little Hawk has it in one.

"They are mostly vicious old men with beards, most of them live in the UK, nursing ancient grudges over their pint of ale, and you can usually find them attacking each other with vitriolic scorn on the political threads...but sometimes in the music section too".

Know anyone that fits that description Richard?

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Musket
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 07:43 AM

Far be it from me to defend Bridge but that sounds hilarious coming from someone hiding behind guest.

I notice that some people complain they are challenged when they come out with comments that are offensive in one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:57 AM

Bonzo, I'm sorry for your troubles over the painful history.

As a woman, it hurts me to see a negative stereotype about ANY woman when I skim the thread list each day. It hurts ALL women when these words are bandied about. In some cultures I suppose 'whore' is merely a job title; in the US it's a nasty pejorative. It's a stereotype because women, based on female sexuality, have historically been blamed for bad things men do. (I don't countenance stereotyping of men either BTW.)

It might be possible even now just to ask a mod to change the thread title to point up the controversy about Eva Peron with different language.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:09 AM

Bonzo3legs:
"I, as the husband of an Anglo-Argentine do not have to explain why."

Yes you do. I don't give a flying fuck who you are married to. Did she actually take money for sex? If so, did she have any choice in the matter?

You seem to be out of touch with the growing realization that prostitutes are almost always victims, not criminals. You have a derogatory word for prostitutes; what's your term for the men who victimize them? You know, the men who spend money on prostitutes? And the men who call them whores?

My word for you is asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:35 AM

Ah Susan, you were posting while I was writing. I'm glad someone else is aware that the word "whore" implies blaming the victim.

There are three reasons that I come to Mudcat a lot less than I used to:
- Max has created a forum for hate speech. He doesn't seem willing to do anything about it. It's disgusting and reprehensible. I strongly disagree with the notion that a website owner doesn't bear any responsibility for what gets posted on their site. Unmoderated discussion sites are too often simply offensive. The title of this thread is hate speech and it's been there for more than 24 hours.

- Most people here don't know how to conduct a debate. The same illogical and unfactual things get written over and over by the same people and no one cares. Unmoderated discussion sites are too often a waste of time.

- Trolls are to be expected. But there are a number of people here who respond to trolls every time. Most threads get high-jacked, not by trolls, who can be ignored, but because of the people who answer them. I get tired of getting three days into an interesting thread only to have the same five or six idiots have a pointless 100-post insult festival with a troll. Unmoderated discussion sites are too often a theft of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:12 AM

Another interesting article on Peron from the year 2000. While interesting, the long reference to Pablo Escobar seems puzzling?



Uncovering The Megalomania Behind Evita Perón 

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:24 AM

John P., I favor mutual exploration, over debate. ;-)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:32 AM

Yeah but what about the cheese

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:15 AM

Three things that simply don't matter:

1. The color of cheese.

2. What Brad and Angelina are doing today.

3. Bonzo3leg's opinion of Eva Peron.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:26 AM

I too used to come here quite often but I find it a less and less pleasant place of late. There is a coterie or right wing nutters and pompous , self important so called lefties, who seem incapable of reasoned discussion. As I said once before, they are all adept at sawing sawdust. I tend to scroll down threads and if I see certain names, I tend to skip it.
As for "hate" speech..I disagree that calling Eva Peron a whore is hate speech...but it is certainly offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:30 AM

Hawk, you forgot a couple:

4. YOUR opinion of Eva Peron

5. YOUR opinion of Bonzo3leg

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:57 AM

a while ago a friend advised me - there is no point arguing with an opponent -you will never convince them if you are angry and to an outsider you both look equally crazy. i do try to remember this , not always successfully. but when i see the same names repeatedly appearing after about 20/30 posts to a new thread it is easy to remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:09 PM

I tend to scroll down threads and if I see certain names, I tend to skip it.

Well then, problem's solved, innit? Easy-Peasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:35 PM

Well, no it isn't.It means to me, and to some others obviously, that there are a handful of people who make this place very unpleasant at times. Many threads start off as interesting discussions then degenerate into name calling, bullying and over the top self righteous indignation. Those who do not wish to have so many threads hijacked by these numbties should not have to avoid Mudcat hust to avoid the nutters.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:44 PM

Oh for #@# sake she is dead long dead isn't life too short to not laugh and let the past be past maybeiit's just me I thought the cheese cheer was funny in a rather rude thread

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:57 PM

Yeah Greg, but they are on every thread.
Eva was a charismatic woman who found a place for herself in South American Politics...a perfect foil to her pragmatic husband.

For any real change to be achieved in politics, we need people like Evita, who may be actors, egoists, or real people with the power to inspire others, spiritual belief in humanity.

Evita had a little of all these things I think, sometimes the best of intentions have unintended consequences.

To call Eva Peron a whore is simply silly and abusive.
Personal abuse here on Mudcat could be wiped out at a stroke, but sometimes I think the abuse is tolerated to keep the more moronic of our members occupied and tied to the threads.
This forum is full of clever people who should be able to debate any issue as adults....unfortunately toleration of personal abuse kills the debate stone dead it, often becomes simply a slanging match, which is what the abusers want in the first place.......they don't have to convince people, just intimidate them! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 01:02 PM

Quite so, Greg. Everyone's opinion here (including mine) is most definitely unimportant. But that won't stop us from posting, will it?

(unless we get so bored with the place that we can't be bothered to)

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:27 PM

Oh for #@# sake she is dead long dead isn't life too short to not laugh and let the past be past maybeiit's just me I thought the cheese cheer was funny in a rather rude thread

Dan, wherever oppression has been (as Bonzo reflected), expecting folks to get over it on any other timetable than their own, personal path forward is not helpful. It's like telling a widow how long its OK to grieve, or like telling Jews to "get over" the Holocaust. Neither of which I think you would do?

<3

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Brian May
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:35 PM

Nice to see you haven't missed me - toxicity is alive and well on Mudcat.

The observation that membership is dropping and people don't post (as much) is correct IMHO (not so humble I suppose).

Bye

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:47 PM

I always thing of it as "in my honest opinion". Humble opinions are about as rare as hen's teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:13 PM

Nice to see you haven't "lost your touch" Hawk. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:30 PM

""...I thought the cheese cheer was funny in a rather rude thread""

Darn, and I thought you had a "genuine" interest in not-so-genuine cheeses
:(

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:40 PM

For any real change to be achieved in politics, we need people like Evita

and like Pol Pot, Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, Augusto Pinochet, Maggie Thatcher, Francisco Franco &c, I suppose, in your book?

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:47 PM

Pol Pot seems to stand out amongst those mentioned?

Would/should he in the same catagory as an attractive and well dressed latin woman-one who came from humble beginnings, whose crimes seems to be limited to being tied up with a sketchy president and promoted workers and womans rights, and issues related to the poor (before she died young)?

I suggest a bit of over-kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:49 PM

Any suggestion as a cheese for a rude thread - how about Stinking Bishop?

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:56 PM

I suggest a bit of over-kill.

Just attempting to offset the rampant underkill herein expressed, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 05:38 PM

"Never fall in love with an idea. They're whores: if the one you're with isn't doing the job, there's always, always, always another." 
― Chip Kidd, The Cheese Monkeys

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:29 PM

Eva Peron was loved by the working classes and despised by the privileged classes, who had exploited and subjugated them. The people who called her what Bonzo3Legs and his wife like to call her, came from those classes.

Juan Peron, it should be noted, supported trade unions and aggressively fought to provide social and economic improvement for the working classes, which got him deposed and exiled, after which the wealthy and privileged dismantled and destroyed as much of what he'd done as they could, and reviled both his name and the name of his much beloved and deceased wife.

Peron returned to Argentina and to power (by proxy, anyway) in the early 70's. He died, and his new wife took power and was almost immediately deposed in a coupe d' etat and replaced by a Military Junta.

The Junta were the ones that instigated the "Dirty War" and gathered up tens of thousands of intellectuals, political opponents, and random bystanders and "disappeared" them, leading to the silent protests by the Madres de Plaza de Mayo.

In case some of you are vague about this, neither Peron nor the Peronists were responsible for the Dirty War, this was the work of the Anti-Peronists who formed the Junta. The Junta, not Peron, are the ones who fit in the shoe box with Pinochet and Duarte and such like.

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:46 PM

Stim, do check on what Juan Peron did to the opposition- both left AND right, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:43 PM

Whatever the ins and outs of the political situation might have been, could one of the moderators kindly delete or change the offensive, sexist word in the thread title?

Why is it that if a guy spreads it around a bit, he's just being a guy, but if a woman does the same thing, she's a "whore?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 07:45 AM

In my experience it's mostly women calling each other whores. Is Bonzo3legs a woman?

And it doesn't seem to be based on any evidence or have any specific meaning. It's used in the same way a man might call another man a bastard, without actually intending to comment on his lineage. I think maybe whore is just the feminine form for bastard. I never hear a woman called a bastard or a man called a whore (at least not in a disparaging way).

I don't know enough about Eva Peron to join the discussion, but I have to say how much I appreciate Stim's attempt to turn this into an adult forum. Though I admit I joined in back when it was just a lot of silly remarks ridiculing the OP.