BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 03:59 AM

Oh!..Pretend to be shocked and indignant...

Is there really anyone on here who DIDN'T know before, or even figure out that this stuff was going on?????

...and guess what??..the provisions of the NDAA gives them leeway to do it to anyone.....without even being charged, or allowed to see a lawyer.

'The Political Waltz'...and both parties are dancing partners.....


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 04:03 AM

"A CIA field office cannot do this no cia agent would do this not because of morality but because they can be charged."

The idea that CIA agents simply outsourced all their torture requirements to third parties to avoid prosecution is dangerously naive. This organisation is unaccountable and operates beyond the law, and what counts for us simply doesn't count for them. CIA (and MI6) agents were directly involved in the torture and killing of people, some of them cases of mistaken identity who died lonely, terrifying deaths in squalid conditions (google the Salt Pit).

I could say more about the CIA from family experience, but in all honesty they scare the living fuck out of me.

By the way, the Gestapo perfected water boarding.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 10:05 AM

All the Slugger O,Toole webs, the US learned the tricks from the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 10:09 AM

Here is the thread Paper trail: from Northern Ireland's hooded men to CIA's global torture, Slugger O,Toole

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 10:15 AM

Waterboarding, including the nasty trick of using a hose-pipe to fill the victim's oesophagus and stomach with water, was a favourite torture method of the Japanese in WW2, a long time before the Irish 'troubles' of the '70s and beyond.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 10:19 AM

On CNN today Cheney stated something like, contrary to the report, then President Bush was regularily advised of all CIA operations, including interrogation, and that he would authorize the same actions again, if faced with the same situations.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 11:16 AM

Stu true prior to the 70's not true after that. They had a leash put on them

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 11:22 AM

Hence the outsource

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 11:23 AM

Cheney said he had not read the 6,000-page classified document, drafted by Democrats and their staffs on the Senate Intelligence Committee, or the 500-page declassified and redacted executive summary. But he unequivocally said its findings were flawed and an affront to members of the CIA.

Classic Cheney, I ain't read it, but its "full of crap". Funny(?), coming from a real PIECE of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 12:03 PM

In an hour and a half, the CIA Director is making a statement and will answer media questions-check CNN

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 12:15 PM

The origin of these abuses was NOT in the British Army, but in North Korea, and particularly among their Russian Advisers, during the Korean War. The discovery of the techniques came from the in-depth American study of brainwashing, and passed into all NATO to a various degree, including the British. Most nations trained in them fairly routinely during ths Cold War, using these techniques on themselves as a training tool to resist interogation if the Russians ever captured you - I don't know how much it went on in the line troops, I didn't spend much time in those circles, but I'm very familiar with stress positions, from the wrong side - as I think is Teribus. From there, it was probably second nature for the more brutal types to use them on the Irish, as they were at that time seen as an implacable enemy. That got out of control, however, and so with the arrival of the Red Fog of War doctrine (ie don't succumb to it) it was stopped. It's now seem as brutally stupid.

Yes, I do own The Guineapigs, having bought it before it was squashed - it was a Penguin Special and was on sale for a very short time before the Government had it delisted. It was a propaganda tool, so I'd be careful about using it as a historical document about what actually happened: I don't think you'd have found waterboarding on the scale of intensity more recently known, for example - and I say that in full knowledge of what the Army did use at the time. Another thing you must be careful about is legal anachronism, the Law by which this is being pursued now did not exist then and so the troops cannot be criticised for acting illegally, or even immorally in the context of the time. We've grown up a bit, and softened a bit, and that's not necessarily a good thing in the long term, but is in the short term. I don't call my training torture, for example, but character building - as you know I'm no pushover.

Anyway, the point is not the UK then, but the US now. In my first reply, I pointed out the hypothetical situation of the US refuting action - but it's now happened. That has just given al-Qaida and IS a big boost, I fear: they can now turn around and say this is what their enemy is like in its own words. And that's a disaster, given it was certain to fail.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 02:10 PM

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1470200/waterboarding

Waterboarding did not start in the Korean War, it's documented as far back as the Spanish Inquisition, and has been used during various conflicts since. It certainly was not invented by the British during the Irish 'troubles' as Olive claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 02:26 PM

Keel hauling goes back at least to Henry VIII. It is down as a naval punishment from 1531.

Water boarding is little different.

Looking at the history of state crime and where methods started doesn't have any bearing on this, either from embarrassed Americans or romanticising Fenians.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 03:30 PM

From the report:

'Rectal feeding'

CIA operatives subjected at least five detainees to what they called "rectal rehydration and feeding".

One CIA cable released in the report reveals that detainee Majid Khan was administered by enema his "'lunch tray' consisting of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins was 'pureed and rectally infused'". One CIA officer's email was in the report quoted as saying "we used the largest Ewal [sic] tube we had".

Rectal feeding is of limited application in actually keeping a person alive or administering nutrients, since the colon and rectum cannot absorb much besides salt, glucose and a few minerals and vitamins. The CIA administered rectal rehydration to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed"without a determination of medical need" and justified "rectal fluid resuscitation" of Abu Zubaydah because he "partially refus[ed] liquids". Al-Nashiri was given an enema after a brief hunger strike.

Risks of rectal feeding and rehydration include damage to the rectum and colon, triggering bowels to empty, food rotting inside the recipient's digestive tract, and an inflamed or prolapsed rectum from carless insertion of the feeding tube. The report found that CIA leadership was notified that rectal exams may have been conducted with "Excessive force", and that one of the detainees, Mustafa al-Hawsawi, suffered from an anal fissure, chronic hemorrhoids and symptomatic rectal prolapse.

The CIA's chief of interrogations characterized rectal rehydration as a method of "total control" over detainees, and an unnamed person said the procedure helped to "clear a person's head""

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 03:37 PM

If you want to see how those ultimate arbiters of correctness, the political cartoonists, view the whole thing, look here. It goes on for pages... and they are not kind.

John Brennen of the CIA was on all the networks this afternoon, 'enduring' questions and doing some dodging.... but also some admitting.

I am beyond aghast that ANYONE from my country went down that path.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 04:06 PM

and doing some dodging

Dodging be damned. He refused to acknowledge that it was, indeed, torture. Another weasel.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 04:47 PM

We of the tinfoil hat brigade knew this shit was happening a decade ago. People who didn't want to know didn't bother to find out.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 05:55 PM

"He refused to acknowledge that it was, indeed, torture.."

Of course not.

He did acknowledge that some had "gone beyond what was approved".... and then just 'noted' that everyone will call the result what they choose.

There is some slight, sadistic pleasure in watching him squirm.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 08:15 PM

The claim that things had "gone beyond what was approved" is an effort to pass the blame down to the lowest possible level, as was done in the case of Abu Ghraib.

It always happens like that - "a few bad apples", don't blame us.

"We were just obeying orders" is no kind of excuse for the people lower down. But it's a true enough claim, and is an indictment of the people who give the orders and authorised them.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Janie
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 09:44 PM

I am puzzled by the dialog and debate about whether torturing detainees produced information/intelligence that was useful. Not puzzled. Horrified. As if that would justify torturing people.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 11:06 PM

The other day I got to thinking about 'truth serum'. If it were predictably accurate - which it is NOT - would using it be banned because of being forced to testify against oneself?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:12 AM

My friend Nils who worked as an army interrogator during the Cold War, says, "Torture is what you use to make the person you're interrogating confess that he's the Queen of England."

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:16 AM

McGrath of Harlow has it clocked....most sane people knew this, or a variation has been going on for years....and this administration, has also known about it(for years).. The 'releasing' of the documents at this time, with all the renewed media coverage, should have your flags up, as to motive, not just for doing it, in the first place, but as to the timing....and what this is getting us ready for.


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Under the bar-guest
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 05:20 AM

Read this Why it's so rare to hear an apology for torture and be informed why US learnt from the Brits, Why it's so rare to hear an apology for torture on the BBC News MAGAZINE.,

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 08:19 AM

A key sentence from that article by Frank Foley in the BBC News Mafazine:

"A fundamental underpinning of the post-9/11 interrogations was a belief among security officials that their brutal treatment of detainees would remain largely secret."

And that is why openness is so important at this stage. "Everyone already knows about it, so why drag it up now" misses the point. The perpetrators at all levels are still protected, the lower level ones by continuing secrecy, the higher up ones by the untouchability that clings to those who are seen as important. And in the case of foreign leaders such as Tony Blair and Jack Straw ( among many others), by both secrecy and status.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 08:21 AM

"Hence the outsource"

None of this evidence is about outsourcing. It's about US officials from the CIA being directly involved in torture. Any legal issues were circumvented by the renditioning of prisoners to countries where they had no rights at all and could be tortured by anyone with impunity. The CIA created the programme and implemented it. They are responsible, not some war hungry mercenary.

Of course, the sad fact is the US were aided and abetted by lots of other countries that allowed rendition flights to land at their airports; the UK and Ireland included. No fucker comes out of this smelling of anything but shit and gore, and to think otherwise is an act of self-delusion.

These people are a different breed, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 09:59 AM

Seems the whatsit's about to hit the fan here in "neutral" Ireland,
Our local airport, Shannon, has been allowing U.S. military planes carrying potential torture victims through on their way to their torture sessions without bothering to check who was on board, while at the same time locking up the protesters.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 11:23 AM

if ordinary people did not agree to do these barbaric acts, they just wouldn't happen. dick cheney or whoever wouldn't do it on his own.some people continue to agree to perform whatever inhumane acts of torture they are told to. (leaving aside the milgram stuff) seriously - who are the people who would do that, nobody is forced to join these 'special forces' or the CIA. presumably they get some enjoyment out of the job - is it the case that the more extreme is your sadism the better you are at the work? such criminal tendency should be enough of a character flaw to disqualify them from any respectable employment.
'it's a dirty job but someone has to do it' - no, they don't

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:24 PM

dick cheney ... wouldn't do it on his own.

Sure he would - in a New York minute.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 04:31 PM

You're still not addressing the point about the US thinking it's a purely internal affair, though. WHY do they even begin to think that, WHERE are they coming from? A Nation which can be so ignorant of anything outside of its borders must be a menace to us all.
Given we've had more than a bit from over there about how wonderful they are, I think we are entitled to an explanation!

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 06:03 PM

More to the point, we're entitled to information about what our people did to assist in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 06:14 PM

The torture itself may have ceased, at least for now, but the mindset that engaged in it hasn't gone.

Here's an extract from a story about the six Guantanamo prisoners who, after years in captivity without at any time even being charged with a crime, let alone convicted were this week sent to freedom in Uruguay.

"The harsh treatment lasted up to the moment the prisoners descended from the US military plane in Montevideo early on Sunday.
The men spent their entire nine-hour flight to freedom in handcuffs, shackles, blindfolds and "ear defenders", their lawyers said.

"When they arrived, the Uruguayans refused to let them walk off the plane in shackles, they insisted that they be allowed to take their first step on Uruguayan soil as free men," said Mone.

That wasn't some effort to extract information. It was plain and simply arbitrary and pointless cruelty. Recreational cruelty on behalf of the American state. And of President Obama we sadly have to assume.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 06:53 PM

You're still not addressing the point about the US thinking it's a purely internal affair, though.

I'm an American and I certainly don't think this is purely an internal affair. We are very upset right now because a congressional report just came out that details our government's actions, but no one I know thinks it only happens in the US or that it only affects the US. We all knew it was going on at the time and was being done by multiple countries and we all hated it. We all know it's still going on and we still hate it.

Many people seem to think that we're all responsible because it was done in our name. I reject that notion -- torture has never been done in MY name, and I hate the fact that I can't trust the leaders of my country. I hate the fact that everyone I know finds the CIA and all their works abhorrent and that there's nothing we can do about it. Our country, like most countries, is controlled by power-mad greedy killers, and I include many Democrats in that assessment along with, apparently, all but one Republican. And I don't trust John McCain because of most of his other positions.

Anyone who achieves high power or great wealth is not to be trusted because, almost always, in order to achieve those things they have to do things that are reprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 07:32 PM

Ake, I would have hoped you noticed I accept responsibility as an individual, as a liberal and as a nation for allowing torture as an official policy. In short everyone who claims American citizenship or civic duty, by silence or non action are responsible for American torture in our name. Even you have no waiver to claim yourself innocent unless you are honest in declaring yourself devoid of integrity or ultimate morality.

Other than creating editorial political cartons against torture I did virtually nothing.

Old Dude you never fail to fill the gaps in my similar thoughts.
In other words, Yeah that's right!

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 09:57 PM

I don't have time to read the whole thread and I'm not sure I have the stomach for it anyway. So this is my one and only post on the subject FWIW:

Q: WHAT color would the torturees have been, preponderantly?

A: I bet not white/pink.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 11:46 PM

I strongly agree with the comments of John P., just above.

And—I take strong exception to those across the pond and/or north or south of the borders who look down their noses at "Americans" for allegedly condoning atrocities such as torture perpetrated by agencies of the government. There is damned little that I, as a private citizen, can do about it other than speak out in protest, express my anger and disapproval—and vote.

"Not in MY name!"

In times past, how many devout Christians who took their religion from what Jesus taught in the Gospels, were outraged at the actions of that agency of the Church, the Inquistion? Quite a few, I suspect.   

There is was word for those who condemn everyone of a particular group for the actions of a few members of that group.   I'll leave it to others to work it out.

Particularly ironic when one's own country is more than a bit "iffy" in that regard….

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 01:17 AM

"Although the committee identified the contractors via pseudonyms, NBC News has previously identified them as Mitchell, Jessen & Associates, a Spokane, Washington, company run by two psychologists, Dr. John "Bruce" Jessen and Dr. James Mitchell, who had both previously worked with the U.S. Air Force."

from the below link, second article down

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/cia-paid-torture-teachers-more-80-million-n264756




Maybe they could go to jail instead of their employers.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 03:47 AM

Must be difficult for Ireland to wake up and realise they are not innocent virgins either.

The outrage for us all, and bearing in mind that most Western countries either supported or acknowledged US search for those who would harm democracies, is that by trying to do so, the values we all hold were put aside.

Torturing, holding without trial and profile prejudice are precisely what we all wished to overcome. But the CIA led the way in joining in the fun. We all knew, and it isn't the first time Shannon (or Prestwick etc) have been named in regard to extraordinary rendition.

But to hear it through a report commissioned by The US government, shocking as the contents are, is a positive thing because hitherto, governments try to play down past misdemeanours, even if it were "the other lot" lest their own murky side gets publicised later.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 10:30 AM

So why is nobody marching into their office and nicking them for war crimes?

This is utterly irrational, that psychologists should resort to torture to garner information. What kind of shrinks are they not to know that their victims are certain to fugue under those circumstances? It'll give you the answers you want, but not the information you need, it's as reliable as a chocolate teapot. Why f'ing bother, if all you want is to go ahead anyway? Cut the cackle and keep it simple, if you're going to rule autocratically, then rule autocratically. What kind of conscience have these people got, willing to salve their consciences in a little lie by creating a bigger one like this? Or is their hypocrisy such that they're willing to torture and abuse just for the fun of it? And if so, then what kind of behaviour is going on in the current bunch to find that tolerable in their predecessors? They obviously have no moral norms, any of them, and are unfit for office en masse. And the same can be said of the UK for not holding them to a standard. What a bunch of utter shits - and to say not in my name misses the point, it was done in our name and we're entitled to hold them to account as a result.
We should be more than just shocked, we should repudiate the lot of them. A democracy which accepts such things is not worthy of the name, because they do act in our name, like it or not, they are entrusted to represent us and must be held accountable for how they do so. At least in the UK we have a plurality of parties: is there nothing to be done in the US to alter matters? If it comes out that the UK was positively implicated, then I shall most certainly be visiting my MP's surgery to make the point in person. The UK has no jurisdiction in the US, but we are signatories of the ICJ and if Blair is implicated, then we know what to do, I trust. Neither fear nor favour.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:13 AM

It has been said, (repeatedly, and on the 'news'), that Americans are 'more' at risk now, as a result of the 'release of the information' about the methods that were used to interrogate the prisoners ..... What is so much bull-crap about that is, does ANYONE think that when Obama released the five terrorists, in exchange for deserter Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, that those same five terrorists didn't inform their buddies, of what was going on???????????

Naw, this is another 'publicity stunt', targeting the consensus of the public, which has the attention span of a mayfly!!

What is really happening is that the mask is coming off...and the public is being DE-sensitized....for what reason awaits implementing provisions of NDAA, on our own citizens.......we'll be 'used to it' by then!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland (Occasionally a Muske
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:48 AM

presumably you'll be first against the wall then Goofus?

Look on the bright side, if the tea party get in next, you'll probably get a congressional medal for the shite you peddle on Mudcat.



Oy, Musket Original! Cookie crumbled, email me the password, duck!

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 01:04 PM

Americans might be more at risk now because people who do not have buddies who are terrorists may start supporting terrorists or even become trainee terrorists themseleves. Especially if perhaps their family has been killed in a drone strike.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 06:50 PM

Your buddies are outraged: the UK Parliament is now shifting, as MPs see they will not get away with shovelling this one under the carpet in the way the US might wish.
Malcolm Rifkind, Chair of the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Select Committee, has asked the Senate to see the unredacted text. Keith Vaz, Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, has called the current Home Secretary Theresa May to explain on Monday.
Jack Straw, the Foreign Minister (Secretary of State) at the time has already been interviewed by Scotland Yard, the Police National HQ(albeit on a neutral basis).
The points being made are exactly those I just made: we are better than that, even if you in the States are not. We may not be able to bring you to Justice, but the UK has no choice, must act, and is acting. Some of the UK's top politicians, with a status close to Statesman, are onto this one and will not let it go.

If the US is unable to explain, then the US had better prepare for some of its past Chiefs and tgheir subordinates to be hauled in front of the ICJ. What applies to Serbia can just as easily apply to GWBII

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:44 PM

We now have the possibility of David Miliband, brother of the Leadour Party leader, lined up to be interviewed by the Police. He was the last of the Labour Foreign Secretaries: one presumes Margaret Beckett, in between them, is also on the receiving end of a little chat.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:59 PM

And yet none of this bullshit is relevant to the thread.

And some of it isn't true either, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 09:08 PM

Torture must work really well huh. I bet historically every person who went to a dungeon chamber confessed to the crime

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 09:16 PM

130 million to the untrained psychology guys company to do this. Why Cia Field agents are trained. They know it doesn't work. Money works offers of asylum works. Saying well if you won't help us we will give you to Israel as they requested works. Physical Tortureis a ccomplete failure and a crime against humanity

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:04 AM

The HYPOCRISY of it all.....

...another about face....when before................

..and how come Feinstien, who was in charge of CIA oversight, never said anything, BEFORE....till now????

Anyone else smell a rat????


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:13 AM

Oh...and 100....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:18 PM

I also agree with John P and Don Firth above..... and though I 'agree' with Rahere's concerns, I have difficulty with his phrasing:

"You're still not addressing the point about the US thinking it's a purely internal affair, though. WHY do they even begin to think that, WHERE are they coming from? A Nation which can be so ignorant of anything outside of its borders must be a menace to us all."

This is a misleading and inaccurate characterization- **nations** do not 'think' and are not 'ignorant'. People- , that is, individuals are guilty of flaws in attitude & behavior. It is well documented that there were Germans who defied Hitler and the Nazis... and often suffered for it. When *individuals* who have power and status in a country abuse rationality, it is no wonder they often abuse other humans.... which leads to atrocities being attributed to entities which can be defined more simply. I can see the temptation to attribute actions to "a country", but doing so obscures the fact that many million in that country despise what has been done in their name. In the US, our political system and structure unfortunately does allow the possibility of the wrong **individuals** getting too much power... and correcting this is not a matter of just some national vote saying "hey, quit that!"... and correcting the entire system brings up metaphors of correcting course on a very large ship.

I DO wish 'we' could correct those problems which are so obvious to many of us... but I also wish there were more understanding shown regarding the situation we protesters are in as we try to deal with the stupidity up top.