BS: Jihadi John identified

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:48 AM

"there is positive action"
No quick fix unfortunately Al, and if it's down to the usual group of War Crimes supporters who use forums like this to spread their hate, there never will be.
If you are a voter (I no longer am), remember that your major parties are all endorsing weapon sales to the feudal dynasties that the Arab Spring revolts tried to get rid of - virtually into the first two weeks of the revolts Cameron hosted an enormous Arms Fair to sell weapons to States like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, and had previously issued export licenses for sniper ammunition and riot control equipment to Assad the Insane.
We can't do much but "every little helps", as than nice man in Tesco keeps telling me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:33 AM

perhaps we should start a Mudcat/ Muslim friendship initiative.

i mean alright Jim, we're all guilty as fuck but it doesn't get us much further forward. on top of acknowledging guilt, there is positive action.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:22 AM

"That is not hard to figure out."
Certainly isn't but it would be Antisemitic to describe it as Antisemitic acoording to the European definition of Antisemitism
EUROPEAN FORUM ON ANTISEMITISM 2012
Working definition of Antisemitism
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Now what have you figured out Brucie?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:06 AM

"Why do you people always and only attack Israel, even on threads about something else?"

That is not hard to figure out.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 07:26 AM

" is there anything positive we can do to stop it happening again."
It might be a good start to recognise it for what it is and how it got to be what it was.
It is based on religious extremism which is to be found in all religions - including Christianity.
It got be powerful by the long term alienation of Muslims and by pandering to despotic dictators in Syria, Libya, Bahrain, and all the other states we sell arms and military equipment to - Isis stepped into the gap and used that alienation to recruit angry young people to fight its battles.
The U.S. has championed the causes of extremist states in the interests of oil and Britain, poodle like - has followed its lead - western leaders flocked to the recent funeral of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to pay their respects at the same time as a journalist was receiving part of his sentence of 1000 lashes for speaking out of turn - doesn't come plainer than that.
Israel has added fuel to the flames by slaughtering over 2000 Palestinians last year, most of them civilians and many of them women and children.
A good step towards a solution would be to recognise that Isis terrorism is no more Muslim that Israeli terrorism is Jewish.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:55 AM

...and in fairness, for once, I agree with ake's statement that nothing excuses these crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:30 AM

Well said, Al, and I refer you to the BBC survey I linked to earlier which makes it quite plain that it is not Muslims who are resiting integration.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:22 AM

Integration is the answer, "multiculturalism" has failed in reference to such diverse cultures.
Islam will always confront Western "liberalism"......it is a fight to the death.

Personally, I believe many of our social values have become debauched, but that is in the nature of capitalism in decline and NOTHING excuses the hideous crimes and cruelty of Radical Islamism.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:11 AM

That question has been asked many times since 7/7.
No-one has come up with a plan yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:01 AM

all the preceding really begs the question - whatever your politics. English society has created this ghoul - is there anything poisitive we can do to stop it happening again.

We all enjoy the good things our society gives us - so collectively we ALL bear responsibility for what has perverted this young person. Can we as individuals do anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:48 AM

It is true I sometimes put Israel's side of the story, but I do not hijack unrelated threads to do it.

There are dozens of threads about Israel that you could reopen.
Why do you have to hijack this one?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:48 AM

Keith, I have asked you to stop addressing me for reasons that are listed in a now lost thread. You know them well and unless you wish me to I will not repeat them. Address issues, not people.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:29 AM

"Why do you people always and only attack Israel, even on threads about something else?"
Why do you people defend Israeli State terrorism and try to manipulate threads whenever it is raised?
You have been told before - dozens of times - you have no authority on this forum (not even respect) and you have no right to say what is relevant and what is not - you don't want to discuss this aspect of the rise in religious extremism - the anser is simple - butt out!
Israeli behaviour in the Middle East has as much tpo do with the rise of Islamist extremism as has the Western need for oil, or the support for Assad or the long-term persecution of Muslims in Britain and elsewhere
Refusing to discuss these aspects is only indicative of your Islamophobic and racist agendas
So be a good pratt and mind your own business; if you are not interested, it's nothing to do with you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:17 AM

Why do you people always and only attack Israel, even on threads about something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:05 AM

Sadly, Begin was just one of a number of terrorists who went on to achieve "political respectability" in successive Israeli regimes without modifying their ways of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:57 AM

Missed a bit.
JEWS AGAINST FASCISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:55 AM

"Can you tell us what countries are governed by Jewish law, Greg F?"
Israeli expansionism is driven by the Zionist idea of where its boundaries should extend to and many of the atrocities carried out down the years have been the result of Zionist extremism.
The fact that that extremism is not written into Israeli law is immaterial, the effects are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:45 AM

Dave, I thought that Aljazeera piece very informative, but it does not contradict anything in The Telegraph.
If I have missed something, please point it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:20 AM

White Rabbits!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 07:15 PM

Akenaton, a little word in your shell-like. No-one here bar you is wriggling. It's really simple: you say what you would have liked your link to say, we go back to the link and find that you're lying. It's so easy for us. Anyone here can do it. Why you think you can get away with your blatant misrepresentations is anyone's guess. You must think we're all fools. I have news for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:53 PM

I always said democracy was over rated.

I usually say it as an ironic joke but looking at some of the bigoted anti anyone different to them shit going on here, I begin to wonder...

There again, Akenaton for all his bluster claims a) to be a Socialist and b) a member of a political party that puts equality and LBGT issues as one of their main agenda items, having voted through marriage for all and selling Scotland as a melting pot of multi culturism.

Presumably some of the others on this thread yearn to reach his intellectual level...

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:11 PM

Let me just say that I know rather a lot about Jewish "Law" and having lived in Israel, I know a bit about that as well. Jewish law does not govern the state of Israel. Nor does Hasidic law.>

Is sure as hell governs the behavior of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews, in Israel and elsewhere tho, doesn't it?

Once again, I'm talking about how things operate in the real world, not what may or may not be on the law-books of a state.

I did not bring Israel into this conversation, you did, greg.

Where did I say you had? And have you looked up those references yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 05:10 PM

DtG, you've lost track of the conversation, I suggest you go back and review.....or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 04:06 PM

WTF you on about, ake. I asked you before to provide a link to any wriggling by me and you did not do so. We can only assume that you are talking through your arse. Again. Either put up or fuck off.

Or by wriggle are you referring to your status?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 03:56 PM

Wriggle, wriggle. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 03:40 PM

But there is a law that stops Muslims from bequeathing equally to females and from bequeathing at all to non Muslims, it is called Sharia law.

No there fucking isn't. not in this country anyway. Remember

Currently Sharia Law is not recognised in the British legal system but a number of informal Islamic courts are in operation across the country, generally offering guidance in marriage issues.

I only mentioned it a couple of hours ago.

Religious tenets are absolutely fuck all to do with the law in this country and most of the civilised world. Long may it stay that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:52 PM

Errr, if you didn't notice, dear guest, the article is quite anti-ISIS.

Do people on here ever actually read links or do they just put their mouths in motion without engaging their brains?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:20 PM

Oh yes, Al Jazeera, mouthpiece of the Emir of Qatar, principal financier of ISIS and other Islamist terrorist groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:16 PM

I did not bring Israel into this conversation, you did, greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:09 PM

It's by these means that the minority violent extremists seek to manipulate the majority moderate, peaceful Muslims in order to eventually achieve their declared aim of establishing a global Caliphate.

It's by giving the so called caliphate the oxygen it needs to survive that people are assisting it. Publications other than the Daily Heil and Torygraph make a lot of sense. Try this one from Aljazeera

Hope it helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:59 PM

So, how many nations are governed by Murphy's law ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:57 PM

To Greg F.

Since you insist on bringing Israel into the discussion here you can find a description of it's legal system. I don't see anything in there that resembles what you refer to as "Jewish Law" but maybe you can find something Israeli Law Guide

Here you will find a list of countries that use Sharia law in whole or in part: Application of Sharia law by Country

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:55 PM

Let me just say that I know rather a lot about Jewish "Law" and having lived in Israel, I know a bit about that as well. Jewish law does not govern the state of Israel. Nor does Hasidic law.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:48 PM

Did you hear about the British intelligence agent who arrested Jilted John ?

He should have gone to Specsavers....

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:33 PM

Can you tell us what countries are governed by Jewish law, Greg F?

Don't be an ass. I'm talking about what actually operates in the real world, irregardless of "what countries are governed by Jewish law".

By the way: Are you claiming ISIS and Al Quaida are countries?

Oh, and there's this place called Israel........

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:28 PM

"Try checking Jewish law"

Can you tell us what countries are governed by Jewish law, Greg F?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:28 PM

Tell us your version of this law Greg ? )

Its not a single statute, but a code of law. You don't need my "version" when you can look it up yourself, nor can it be condensed into a sentance or two. You might start by searching Jewish law and women. Then refine by Orthodox & by Hasidic. You might just learn something. Or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:20 PM

Sharia Law eh?

Ever been to an employment tribunal? About the best example of us enshrining Sharia principle in our law. "Arbitration by community leaders and their advisors that does not take precedent into account,"

Up till recent times, we had it in this country until arbitration through the church was passed to secular courts as we became a less superstitious country.

Some people want small differences of opinion sorted through arbitration by their Imam and a committee of older people. Others want it to be legally binding. The law allows the former and it is used, always has been used since the first mosque here in Victorian times and whilst we have freedom of expression always will be.

Of course, as with all religions, normal rational folk can't understand the role of religion nor why people support a load of cobblers but that's their choice.

The only law in England that is discriminatory from a superstitious angle and according to what I read is likely to be challenged soon in The European Courts is the one saying CofE licences to marry people precludes gay people and that you can be sacked from your job for marrying if you are a gay vicar.

Excellent example of our government caving in to bigotry for populist reasons. However, the clause is in secondary legislation and contradicts primary legislation on equality. The government know this so can "blame" others when sanity prevails.

Fascinating how people who reckon they are religious can cast doubt on law abiding Muslims whilst refusing to condemn bigotry in their own ranks.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to improve forensic mental health provision, both from a commissioning and a regulatory aspect, and hear it from me. When the voices tell people to sharpen their axe, it's usually Jesus telling them, occasionally Beelzebub and sometimes Allah. I have yet to hear a chaplain of any faith call that rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:11 PM

"Anyway, back to that poll. Not all the findings have been discussed here yet. Here's some more. 35% feel that most British people don't trust Muslims. 46% feel that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims. 46% feel that prejudice against Islam makes it very difficult being a Muslim in this country. Check out comres.co.uk. The poll was carried out by telephone. 1000 people were polled. Interestingly, that included only 470 women. Those figures seem to indicate that many Muslims feel mistrusted and uneasy about expressing their culture. Yet almost all Muslims in this country are law-abiding and hard-working. So what's that all about then? We hear powerful voices condemning antisemitism, and I for one am right with them. But where's the outrage against Islamophobia?"

The answer's simple, Steve, is it not? Muslim extremists, aided and abetted, by design or by accident, by organisations like UKIP and rags like the Daily Mail, are winning the propaganda war and achieving some of their main aims, namely to foment ill-feeling and distrust of Muslims amongst non-Muslims, to de-stabilise social structures within countries where Muslims are in the minority, and eventually to create a situation where Muslim minorities feel sufficiently threatened that they need to act against the non-Muslim majorities in those countries.

It's by these means that the minority violent extremists seek to manipulate the majority moderate, peaceful Muslims in order to eventually achieve their declared aim of establishing a global Caliphate. It's a very long-term goal, but they have time on their hands an are prepared to take as long as necessary.

I'm not worried about Muslims in the UK, they're welcome to be my neighbours (in fact, some are!), but I am worried that the barbarity of a minority in the Middle-East which we keep hearing about in the media is being used as a stick to beat moderate, peaceful Muslims in the UK, until it comes to the point where they feel compelled, and empowered, to rebel.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:06 PM

As with Keith and his Guardian lie, I've been obsessively sticking to the facts here (bar my little glitch, cheerily apologised for). It's very simple really, akenaton. All I have to do is see what you're saying, go back to the actual questions asked in the poll, compare the two and find that you're a liar. Nothing to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:06 PM

Tell us your version of this law Greg ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:03 PM

Sharia Law? Try checking Jewish law, as practised - in fact- by the Orthodox and Hasidim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:57 PM

then Jim and Dave joined in the wriggling

No wriggling here, ake. Link to some if you can find any. Just facts.

What happened to 'the issue not the poster' that you preach BTW?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:37 PM

" then Jim and Dave joined in the wriggling."
And you have ducked out of responding
You have been give the facts of multiculturalism 0- a asked for your alternatives - and the rest is silence.
So I ask again - what is your solution - mass deportation?
You actually brought it up in the first place so you can hardly blame anybody else for "wriggling".
You have also been responded to on your statistics - pretending that you haven't is what call "wriggling", quite common with your particular little sect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:28 PM

..so let's see.. 27 off 100 is...
[counting fingers.. then rummaging in a cupboard for calculator..]

.. 73 !!!

that's 73% ... that's a pretty good positive majority by any standards.. eh ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:26 PM

They did not "give some sort of support to the terrorists". For the third time, there was no question in the poll involving the terms terrorism or killings. That is just your totally unjustified extrapolation. Incidentally, look back at that Telegraph link and tell us whether you think its headline properly represented the poll at all. Sensationalism, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:20 PM

Anyway, back to that poll. Not all the findings have been discussed here yet. Here's some more. 35% feel that most British people don't trust Muslims. 46% feel that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims. 46% feel that prejudice against Islam makes it very difficult being a Muslim in this country. Check out comres.co.uk. The poll was carried out by telephone. 1000 people were polled. Interestingly, that included only 470 women. Those figures seem to indicate that many Muslims feel mistrusted and uneasy about expressing their culture. Yet almost all Muslims in this country are law-abiding and hard-working. So what's that all about then? We hear powerful voices condemning antisemitism, and I for one am right with them. But where's the outrage against Islamophobia?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:12 PM

And, the Hebdo gang went on to kill police and Jews after the cartoonists.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:05 PM

Lets get back to the point.
You asked for stats Steve I gave them to you then you started wriggling, then Jim and Dave joined in the wriggling....Team Musket does nothing else.

Straight and simple 27% of UK Muslims give some sort of support to the terrorists of Charlie Hebdo.....Incidentally, I don't see that mag as being genuinely socialist. It seems to be a bit of a satirical rag like own.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:00 PM

Which is not recognised in this country.