BS: Jihadi John identified

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 05:27 PM

"motives behind the attacks".

Shouldn't that read..... motives behind the TERRORIST attacks Steve?

and try to keep civil when you're wriggling.... :0)

No, that is not what it should read. You quoted the Telegraph article and what I said is what the Telegraph question asked in the survey. Motives behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks. The word terrorist was not used in the question. If you're not happy with that, take it up with the Telegraph. Personally, I prefer the sword of truth. It appears that you prefer to revise events according to what you've already decided. And you have the neck to accuse me of hypocrisy, you nasty little man.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:59 PM

27% believing that there was some justification is indeed a shocking statistic. The important thing is what should be done about it. Do we, as many on these pages do, use the statistic to paint these Muslims as evil bastards who support terrorist or do we try to educate the next generation to believe differently? The former is the easy path for those who just want to blame someone. The latter is the civilised but difficult way. Surely we have enough brain power in this country to overcome any obstacles. Or have the population become so brainwashed by Murdoch and his cronies that they are now really believing what they are being force fed? It is that side of it that really sickens me.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:37 PM

is the idea of the butchery videos to recruit? I'm not sure.

Lets see what it has achieved

1) it has raised awareness of a conflict, not many of us care about.
2) it has angered many people
3) it has fuelled a general disenchantment with religion
4) it has raised awareness that we have an implacable enenemy - rather like Northern Ireland - we know however that we must placate them.
5) these kids running away - they don't get their ideas from nowhere - it tells us that our government has been lying to us. rather like the Bobby Sands election success (which seemed to come out of nowhere for most English people - our media had told us that Sinn Fein were a tiny minority). there is somwhere in our society a degree of support for the head choppers.

if anyone disputes these thoughts. could we discuss sensibly - instead of all this yahoo sucks shit/ it reminds of PMQ under Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:00 PM

Jim, I agree with you 100% regarding the Hedbo mag, I would certainly never buy it....childish humour which may appeal to some here.

However the butchery of the contributors can never be defended under any circumstances and apparently 27% of UK muslims are willing to give some support to the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:52 PM

HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM CARTOONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:40 PM

"Do you like these "statistics" Steve?"
Charlie Hedbo was a magine that published racidt cartoons, including one depicting a black foreign miister as an ape and another describing the muslim girls kidnapped by Isis as social security spongers.
There is no excuse for the slaughter that took place in their building, but had it not happened, Hedbo would have remained what it was, a magazine that peddled racist propaganda.
It is understandable that Muslims have no fondness for a racist rag - those who worry about white girls being defiled do, of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:29 PM

"motives behind the attacks".

Shouldn't that read..... motives behind the TERRORIST attacks Steve?

and try to keep civil when you're wriggling.... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:22 PM

Without doubt, the fantasy world of religion is a major part of the problem.

And, even though the Pope has been critical - the fool - of the Charlie Hebdo mag, if Isis ever attacks the Vatican( and they have made veiled threats )then things could really kick off!

What we don't want is Christian extremists starting a new crusade because that could lead to a major, major world-wide conflict including, I believe, limited use of nuclear weapons.

And, remember the medieval crusade?

It's the Christians who were the really vicious blood thirsty ones in that conflict!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:05 PM

The poll (replete with leading questions, but never mind) concluded that 27% had some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks. You appear to think that that means they "had some support for the Islamic terrorists". Well I have news for you - it doesn't mean that at all. And you wonder why we're extremely sceptical when you start chucking statistics around. It took me one minute to find that out. You need to stop thinking that anyone not on your wavelength is stupid, don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:02 PM

Statistics ?

If I were to tuck a pencil behind my ear, hold a clipboard cradled in my arm, and stab my finger randomly at a calculator..

Would that lend my opinions more authority ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:01 PM

Do you like these "statistics" Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:53 PM

Apologists for these atrocities are just as evil and a large percentage of Western based Muslims in a recent poll said that they had some support for the Islamist terrorists

Do you know of any apologists, apart from fellow jihadis, for the atrocities? What's a "large percentage"? How many "western-based Muslims" were asked, where do they live, what was the question and who asked it?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:51 PM

Oh its not just about one man whichever Musket you are.


Still laughing?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:47 PM

Like the young white girls of Bradford, human captives appear to be viewed by Islamists as "trash"

Have you got evidence that the abusers of these white girls were" Islamists", and can you give me a quote from these chaps that demonstrate that they think the white girls in particular are "trash"? It's quite important that you are able to substantiate this, otherwise this remark of yours is nakedly racist. As for your accusation that I'm hypocritical because I asked Keith (sarcastically, as it happens, but that would go right over your head) for statistics, what's up with you is your gross misuse of statistics. Stats can be very useful, but, in your bigoted hands, they are completely useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:35 PM

Whilst Keith is frantically trying to say this is about one particular criminal, his mate fucks it up completely for him by dragging Bradford grooming into the equation in order to show they are on an anti Muslim kick anyway.

Don't worry Keith. It looks like Akenaton knows what you mean..



You've got to laugh really 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:31 PM

"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps."

Jihadi John is indeed a monster;
but more sensible commentators are comparing him to Lord Haw Haw...

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:18 PM

"Any exaggeration?"
How about
"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps."
Doesn't even come up to the slaughter three and a half thousand unarmed refugees facilitated by the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:14 PM

"Like the young white girls of Bradford"
"White girls" - the bastards - how dare they defile our women!!!
"can get back to normal life"
Anty word on the "as bad than the holocaust" yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:14 PM

"but it takes a certain type of beast to burn a captive alive in cold blood, or cut the heads from the shoulders of human captives"

..ermmm so for how long was head chopping off and witch burning favoured forms of public spectacle execution
here in the west in Britain & Europe. ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:08 PM

These people are fiends, I agree drone warfare is evil and regime change in a sovereign country wrong, but it takes a certain type of beast to burn a captive alive in cold blood, or cut the heads from the shoulders of human captives.
Like the young white girls of Bradford, human captives appear to be viewed by Islamists as "trash"

Apologists for these atrocities are just as evil and a large percentage of Western based Muslims in a recent poll said that they had some support for the Islamist terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:05 PM

Guardian 22 hours ago, quoting Labour politician,

"I hope that the understandable press interest subsides over the coming days so that the community can get back to normal life."

understandable press interest

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 12:59 PM

"How do you know that that is THE purpose of the videos? What if I say that I think the videos are used mainly to promote fear in the minds of westerners? Hey, Keith, did you note that I said "I think..."? And, even if you're right, how do you know that "it seems to work"? Have you got any statistics?"

But you don't LIKE statistics do you Steve, don't believe them, dismiss them as irrelevant......I "think" that post was extremely hypocritical, if you don't mind me saying so?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 12:53 PM

You seem to think it wrong for us to discuss this person who is receiving global media coverage.
You want it suppressed here.
Why?

It is not just a whim of mine that the videos are made to attract support.
I provided a media quote and link to show that it is the mainstream view.

You are desperate to criticise me for something, but for what?
Any errors in my post?
Any exaggeration?
If not, what is your problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 11:47 AM

"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps"
Utter nonsense and typical of the inventive minds of extremists like yourself
Nobody knows for certain who he is but it is suggested that he is Mohammed Emwazi, of whom very little is known.
The execution of several hostages has been attributed to him - to compare this to the extermination of six million Jews is grotesque in the extreme - how """""" dare you downgrade the death of so many people by comparing them to a handful of murders?
You really are off your hate-filled head.
The man is a nutter, but his crimes don't come anywhere near the slaughter of young Norwegians at the hands of another religious nutter, this time a Christian.
Sick, sick, sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 11:35 AM

Video of his murders inspire young men and women, including school kids, to travel to Syria to help in his work.

I seem to recall that people from all over the world were "inspired" to travel to Ireland to join the IRA, to Spain to fight in the Spanish Civil War, to France to join la Légion étrangère, & etc. & etc.- all inspired without the aid of videos.

Musket, this person is the most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps.

Moose poop. You're just displaying the unfathomable depths of your ignorance again, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 09:21 AM

Richard's statement does not mention jihadists or "Islamists". We are suspicious that they are critical of Muslims because that is invariably their focus in any thread that has a bearing on this issue. You will never hear a whisper of criticism from them about illegal land-grabs from the Muslims in Palestine or the slaughter of Muslim women and children in Gaza. You will hear denial of who was truly responsible for the massacres of Muslims in Sabra and Shatila. You might, on a good day, just get a grudging admission that such things were unfortunate. We get statements that Muslims in Britain who (in spite of discrimination), don't cheerfully sign up to everything that's culturally British should go back to their hell-holes. Yeah, we're just a tad suspicious, some of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 09:04 AM

"There are a number of posters on the 'cat who are it seems suspicious that so many of KtheA's and Terry's (and Akenhateon's) posts are critical of Muslims. We think it looks exactly as if they are trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush."

By your statement you are implying that Jihadists and Islamists are representative of all Muslims. You are being Islamophobic.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:58 AM

"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps."

Not quite sure what "notorious" means in this context but as I compared your post to the newspaper fixation, you didn't have to prove my point by such sensationalist claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:52 AM

Steve, it is generally reported that the videos are made to gain support.

Weasel words. Look it up.

I am sure that is the case, but will consider any alternative explanations you can come up with.

I've given some already. Do keep up. Anyway, if you're so sure, why would I waste more energy on you?

Musket, this person is the most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps.

What, worse than Pol Pot then?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:41 AM

"bit hard for someone who is Islamophobic wouldn't you think?"
What a quaint suggestion!!
Seem to remember you once boasting you were once a soldier - doesn't count as "work"
As the old joke says , "join the army, visit new places, meet new people - and kill them!!"
It wouldn't be a problem to your being an Islamophobe anyway - the British Empire existed for centuries on the basis that the world was full of people of no value other than to be exploited - the Empire was founded on the philosophy that counrties like India and Africa were populated by sub-humans very much in need of Christianising and civilising - we even sang hymns about it in school
These criminal fanatics (that's what they are) are no different than Christian Anders Breivik who murdered 77 and injured 314 people in his fight against Islam (except that Anders was more successful in his quest) more .
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:35 AM

http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nbcnews-com/jihadi-john-videos-help-drive-isis-recruitment-405119555811

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:33 AM

I have never made any post critical of Muslims or Islam.
If that is not true, produce one please Richard.

Steve, NBC 13 hours ago,
"'Jihadi John' Videos Help Drive ISIS Recruitment"

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:30 AM

There are a number of posters on the 'cat who are it seems suspicious that so many of KtheA's and Terry's (and Akenhateon's) posts are critical of Muslims. We think it looks exactly as if they are trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:25 AM

Steve, it is generally reported that the videos are made to gain support.
I am sure that is the case, but will consider any alternative explanations you can come up with.

Musket, this person is the most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps.
His identity and background are of interest.
You seem to want all discussion suppressed.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:23 AM

why do you guys just make crude parodies of each others point of view.

its a matter of concern. we all have a point of view. if we don't show basic courtesy to each other. sensible discussion is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 07:42 AM

It was you that mentioned Muslim female pupils being taunted about wearing veils as being a possible factor - so it is up to you to substantiate it

Well why don't you "substantiate" your claim that I said it was "prevalent"? Actually, a ten-second Google would "substantiate" it to your heart's content. The truth's out there and it's easy to find. Google "Muslim girls taunted for wearing veil".

As for your vast experience in Muslim countries, do me a bloody favour, will you. You didn't exactly go around with a big badge with "I hate Muslims" on it, did you, and I'll bet you didn't go around telling everyone there that you were glad they'd stayed in their hell-hole instead of coming over here. As for my beavering away, I was a science teacher, thanks. What "beavering" were you up to in your travels? Nah, don't bother telling us.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 07:36 AM

Then again, maybe the guy in the photo is Fundagelical Fred.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 07:24 AM

"Still, old chap, if Teribus says summat it automatically has to be wrong in Steve Shaw's circumscribed little "right on", Socialist Worker, left-wing Liberal world, doesn't it?"

Not biting prat, if you want to know precisely what Keith meant then ask him, not me.

It was you that mentioned Muslim female pupils being taunted about wearing veils as being a possible factor - so it is up to you to substantiate it.

If my "world is Islamophobic" then I have a very weird and rather unusual CV to demonstrate it. While you have been "beavering" away in your East London Secondary School during my working career I have lived and worked in the following Islamic countries:

- Malaysia
- Brunei
- Indonesia
- United Arab Emirates
- Iran
- Oman
- Kuwait
- Saudi Arabia

I have done so without the slightest problem - bit hard for someone who is Islamophobic wouldn't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:42 AM

The purpose of the videos is to gain support and attract recruits.
It seems to work.

How do you know that that is THE purpose of the videos? What if I say that I think the videos are used mainly to promote fear in the minds of westerners? Hey, Keith, did you note that I said "I think..."? And, even if you're right, how do you know that "it seems to work"? Have you got any statistics?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:31 AM

Well, Teribus, you've obviously never worked in a secondary school in East London (thirteen years this end...). You'd be amazed at how good teenagers are at concealing what they get up to from the adults around them. As for the taunting of girls wearing veils, where did I say it was "prevalent"? Are you denying that it happens at all, perhaps on the grounds that nice white English Christian kids wouldn't dream of doing such a thing? And if Keith didn't have those three girls in mind, pray tell me what else prompted him to "include schoolkids". Still, old chap, if Steve says summat it automatically has to be wrong in Teribus's circumscribed little Islamophobic world, doesn't it? I look forward to further spluttering amusements from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:26 AM

Ohh look! A Muslim!

Must be a terrorist eh?

zzzzz

Why did you start this thread Acheson? Sick enough the newspapers slavering and licking their chops over the tittilation they reckon their readers get from ranting about beheadings without polluting Mudcat with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 05:08 AM

CNN two days ago,

"Experts say ISIS has especially ramped up its efforts to lure young women -- seen as potential brides for its fighters -- into the territory under its brutal control in Syria and Iraq.

But that still leaves the question of why its recruitment drive appears to be proving so successful.

It runs a powerful propaganda machine on social media
"There's no question what we're combating with ISIL's propaganda machine is something we have not seen before," U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told CNN. "It's something we need to do a lot more work on. We are seeing 90,000, I think, tweets a day that we're combating."

The militants have repeatedly promoted videos using high-level production techniques to celebrate their brutality."

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 04:53 AM

So let us, please, have no more tarring of all Muslims with the same brush

No-one on this thread has done that.

The purpose of the videos is to gain support and attract recruits.
It seems to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:54 AM

Comment 1: "We have to kill these people and kill everyone who would sympathise with them and continue until their ideas themselves are exterminated."

Comment 2: "wish those now trying to kill or capture Jihadi John the best of luck."

Ah Bridge just as well it was your friend (who has just recently converted) and yourself who came out with those statements - Had I said either, the condemnation would have been deafening.

By the way Bridge is this an example of "tarring of all Muslims with the same brush":

"Now that is interesting, define "their own community" for us Shaw and have you any evidence that "they" had been alienated by "British society in general" - after all most Muslims who live in the UK are not."

Just on a point of accuracy related to Prince Harry's tours in Afghanistan GUEST SICK:

1st Tour - Serving as an officer in the Blues and Royals he was deployed as a Forward Air Controller to Helmand Province in Afghanistan.

2nd Tour - Deployed on a four-month combat tour as a co-pilot and gunner for an Apache helicopter - not as a pilot. Prince Harry finally qualified as an Aircraft Commander on the type on the 8th July 2013 after his return from his operational tour in Afghanistan

On both tours the ROE in force meant that he could not act until hostile action had been taken by an enemy that could be clearly identified, he could not act until his intended actions had been approved and sanctioned by his superiors - a bit different from hacking the heads off helpless prisoners in front of a video camera eh? If you are going to make idiotic digs at least start out with the correct information.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,SICK
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:22 AM

It must be the British system of education that produces murderers.

A young member of the house of Windsor takes two tours to Afganistan as an Apache helicopter pilot and compares it to playing video home.

Sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:14 AM

Wot Bridge said

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:46 AM

A somewhat sexist view of young girls, Terry.

But I am amused to see this schism on the right.

Anent the IS destruction of antiquities, a close friend of mine, himself a fairly recent convert to Islam, has posted elsewhere: -

"This is indeed moronic and they are scum, though this is the least of their crimes. We have to kill these people and kill everyone who would sympathise with them and continue until their ideas themselves are exterminated."

So let us, please, have no more tarring of all Muslims with the same brush - and wish those now trying to kill or capture Jihadi John the best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:23 AM

"Steve Shaw - 26 Feb 15 - 07:50 PM"

You seem to answer your own question regarding possible sources of inspiration for young Muslims from foreign countries to be drawn to IS's "Caliphate":

1: Seeing video clips "on YouTube cutting someone's head off and it persuaded them to get on a plane to Syria so that they could help him to cut more heads off"

2: "being carefully groomed by fundamentalists"
Which if true in this case the "grooming" did not appear to have taken much effort as it went unnoticed by those around these girls .

3: "swayed by an older friend with a strong personality"

4: "they felt alienated from their own community as well as British society in general"
Now that is interesting, define "their own community" for us Shaw and have you any evidence that "they" had been alienated by "British society in general" - after all most Muslims who live in the UK are not.

5: "bullied because they were taunted for wearing their veils"
Any evidence of that being prevalent?

6: "because they were offered what seemed a real identity and romantic adventure by evil people at a time in their lives when they felt they didn't have an identity?"

Of the six possible motivations my guess would be that No: 6 would be the most likely for a teenage girl.

Now what was it that Keith A stated again?

"Video of his murders inspire young men and women, including school kids, to travel to Syria to help in his work."

No mention of three school girls there Shaw, only a vague reference that the purpose of the videos is to inspire recruits of all ages and sexes to "the cause". Even you do not discount No: 1 as a possible source of "inspiration" - if you doubt that then count the instances of failed attempts to behead British soldiers where those charged stated that the murder of Lee Rigby was the source of inspiration.

I would agree completely with the comments made so far on this thread by Big Al:

(a) "they ain't induced to go out there by the young methodists."

(b) "you keep your kids away from that shit...if you care about your kids." - Emphasis on the YOU.

(c) "well the thing is - you have to talk to them and find out. it involves switching off the telly and making an effort. you have a duty of care and protection." - sanest, factually and logically the most commonsense thing I have ever read on this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 09:05 PM

Agreed. But things can still slip through with teenagers. I think the families are saying they were blissfully unaware of the malign influences at school.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 08:59 PM

well the thing is - you have to talk to them and find out. it involves switching off the telly and making an effort. you have a duty of care and protection.