Why does modern music sound so different

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:49 AM

PFR, I would heartily recommend Wolf People. Anyone who namechecks the Groundhogs a major influence... Fain is a corking album.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:06 AM

sO EFFECTIVELY NON TRAVELLERS WHO DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT HOW THINGS ARE IN GLOCCAMORRA ARE DEBARRED FROM CREATING FOLKSONG.
cONGRATULATIONS!
YOU HAVE JUST GONE OFF THE SCALE ON THE TALKINGBOLLOXOMETER!

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:12 AM

I would say that songs about fishing and about hunting are still relevant to people today,you may be correct about jolly ploughboys, although there is a small section of the population who seem to enjoy horse ploughing matches., just as there is a small section of steam railway enthiusiasts.

"Geldoff put it in a nutshell when he entitles a 2011 album "How To Compose Popular Songs That Will Sell" - not a motivation I ever attached to making folksongs"
precisely my point about songs written solely for a commercial purpose.
Cyril Tawney wrote the song On A Monday Morning, I doubt if it was,[ Ido not know whether it is a folk song or not] written solely for commercial purposes, as regards Bob Geldofs song, I do not know his motive for writing the song, so no comment.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:14 AM

Sorruy A did't understand a single word of that despite the block captials
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:20 AM

that is reducing folksong to repetition.

I don't believe there can ever be such a thing. Every time something is done it will be incrementally different from what has gone before, whatever the prototype : by chance, design or, according to Sun Ra's law, because Nature Never Repeats Itself. Even in playing a recording, you're going to hear it differently each time you listen to it, occasionally you might notice things you've never heard before. Buy a new Hi-Fi, it's like buying a whole new record collection.

Down the ages, Handel and Mozart have radically been changed so they no longer sound anything like they sounded when they were conceived - this does not make it folk music, nor does it mean they cease to be Classical.

Not sure about this; I think Early Music Practise is to try and be as exacting as possible in terms of historic performance; it's an exacting & peer-reviewed academic discipline that covers a lot of other disciplines from the reconstruction of instruments to a careful reconsideration of playing techniques. As the years roll by, you find that a recording of Vivaldi Chamber Concertos or Purcell Sonatas from 2015 is going to sound a lot better than one from 40 years earlier, but I delight in the comparison as an examination of my CD shelves will reveal.

No such thing as repetition though. Each rendering is as alike or as unalike as Trees, Grass or Crickets.      

Does that make it folk? Perish the thought! No more than Shoals of Herring (Roud 13642) or I Don't Like Mondays (no Roud number - yet!) is folk. It's just music doing what music's been doing since the earliest cro-magnon hunter-gatherer first cocked his ear to the wind blowing through the sinews of a dead whale some 50,000 years ago and sang along.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:30 AM

Even if Geldof aint one of nature's more likeable people
I think we can fairly give him benefit of the doubt that

"How To Compose Popular Songs That Will Sell"

might have been intended as an ironic tongue in cheek piss take...

Then again.. The Boomtown Rats first single was "Lookin' After No. 1 " ...???

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:32 AM

On a Monday Morning
(Cyril Tawney)

   Too soon to be out of me bed,
   Too soon to be back to this bus queue caper,
   Fumbling for change for me picture paper,
   On a Monday morning.

   Oh, where has the weekend gone?
   Oh, where are the wine and the beer I tasted?
   Gone the same way as the pay I wasted,
   On a Monday morning.

   If only the birds were booze,
   If only the sun was a party giver,
   If I could just give someone else me liver,
   On a Monday morning.

   My lover she lies asleep,
   My lover is warm, and her heart is mellow,
   I'd give the whole world just to share her pillow,
   On a Monday morning.
in my opinion these lyrics and melody are superior to Bob Geldof song, whether either of them is a folk song is not relevant, but the second songs melody sounds samey and bland to my ears, did Geldof write it purely as a money spinner?

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:35 AM

Cyril, uses a tradtional sounding type melody, perhaps? it is in a certain mode, which has much in common with other traditional folk melodies, which would make folk afficianados think this sounds like a folk song from the britsh isles[ in a geographical sense]

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:52 AM

Geldoff's song is about this, rather than Mondays per se:

Cleveland Elementary School Shooting 1979

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:06 AM

are there any folk songs about the caps lock getting in the way of the folk hero expressing himself in witty forthright manner?

No use asking the horse dealers, basket weavers and pickers of wild mountain thyme. they've got their work cut out being rustic and simple.

You can't upset us sensitive artists Jim, we are used to the worlds rejection. The sting of cruel words cannot harm us. Mind you the idea about the paedo priest going off to fondle in new pastures in the village down the road would be a good one.

I could get the room singing drunken repetitious nonsense to that one.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:11 AM

I Love My Life by Demarco--great song.

Just because I'm old doesn't mean I can't like newer stuff. And I think Collin Demar Edwards is a good writer/producer. (I like listening to this song with the volume waaay up. YMMV.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:20 AM

Here's the official award-winning video done by Demarco. I posted the last one so people could read the lyrics.

'I Love My Life' by Demarco.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:25 AM

How funny to see Musket (who I never believed was three people,) endorsing a homophobic song that mocks and ridicules gay and trans. folk, and actually boasting that he wrote part of it.

This same Musket falsely accuses others of homophobia and posts hate filled and abusive rants against them.
Such hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:41 AM

Jim Carroll - 24 Apr 15 - 06:19 AM

Good post agree with every word of it.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:54 AM

What do you think about the OP, Keith or did you come here just to rag on Musket(s)?

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:05 AM

Must make note of date and time and send in an alert to BBC Springwatch..

A Keith A of Hertford actually spotted and verified in the music section of mudcat !!!

It's a rare sighting well outside the range of it's normal wilderness habitat...???

Biologists will will be excitedly debating just how this specimen
found it's way above the line in search of it's prey...????>😜

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:48 AM

"I don't believe there can ever be such a thing"
As what exactly?
Folksong is far for than repetition, which appears to be the point you were making - it's a folk song because people sing it and change it in the process - bit facile, doncha think?
The fact that things get changed don't make them "folk" - far more complicated than that
Folksongs are those used and probably made by the folk as a form of self-expression - they are, or were songs either taken into the communities from outside and adapted to fit the needs of those communities, or actually made within those communities and absorbed into them, usually losing the trace of the original maker.
Take a look at the Clare site - the number of songs that deal with the subjects that deal with community or national events, such as the cattle-drive songs or those describing what happened to those forced to emigrate ('Sons of Granuale or Seven Irishmen, for instance)
A million miles away from Boomtown Rats' somewhat meaningles and largely repetitious take on Columbine.   
Sorry - didn't understand your somewhat convoluted bit on Mozart
Folk song refers to origin and ownership - try telling Geldof et al that his song isfolk, ours, in the public domain, whatever and see how far go get with him or his legal team.
Not only is it not a folk song, but our legal system makes damn sure that it will never become one and will always belong to who wrote it, and in order for us to perform it publicly, we would have to pay for the privilege.
Lumping anything the Music Machine produces in with the 'Voice of the People' (widely used phrase - not mine) debases the coin and does what people have been trying to do for centuries - disenfranchising the people from their culture.
Hasn't this somewhat reactionary attitude already done enough damage by throwing open the 'folk song' clubs to the predatory PRS and IMRO jackals who are more than happy that we should pay for the privilege of singing our folk songs in our folk clubs.
I've stated my personal likes and dislikes, but in the end, this has nothing whatever to do with the fact that it has been recognised for over a century that these songs came from a different stable as the mass produced ones.
Any evidence to the contrary would certainly be viewed with interest, as far as I'm concerned.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:15 AM

There have been instances of old songs becoming modern hits. 'The Yellow Rose of Texas' comes to mind.

"The Center for American History at the University of Texas at Austin has an unpublished early handwritten version of the song, perhaps dating from the time of the Battle of San Jacinto in 1836.[1] The author is unknown; the earliest published version, by Firth, Pond and Company of New York and dated September 2, 1858, identifies the composer and arranger as "J.K."; its lyrics are "almost identical" to those in the handwritten manuscript, though it says it had been arranged and composed for the vaudeville performer Charles H. Brown.[1]"

from Wiki.

Here's the hit from years back. Times change, but some songs just stick around.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:32 AM

My views on this are about the same as Jim's, but he can express them with more knowledge and cred than I could so I hold back.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:43 AM

"Hasn't this somewhat reactionary attitude already done enough damage by throwing open the 'folk song' clubs to the predatory PRS and IMRO jackals who are more than happy that we should pay for the privilege of singing our folk songs in our folk clubs."
   in my experience prs and imro are more concerned with composed songs rather than traditional, the composer has to join one of these organisations and then register them and notify that they have performed them at the club,for them to take action, they are most concerned about collecting royalties on composed songs .if clubs are tradtional song only, my experience is PRS,bugger off, perhaps your experience is different, jim
otherwise i agree with you.I doubt if Geldof considers i dont like mondays to be a folk song

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:56 AM

As what exactly?

Repetition, of course.

Although there are always exceptions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD51AebdppA

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 12:17 PM

its not Geldof who decides that his song is a folksong. its the folks down the pub who sing it -and prs don'tpolice public performances of composed music - they say they do - but they don't. otherwise i'd be a millionaire. i've been a full member/writer of prs for 40 years, just as long as my most requested song - not my 'hit'.
the most requested and most played in pubs has never earned a penny.

its the people who decide - the folk, every time.

similarly PinkFloyd were never consulted when the children of Soweto used Another Brick in the Wall as their cri de couer, as they protested against the education system that turned into 2nd class citizens.
and by the way Geldof's song was written long before Columbine

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 12:31 PM

I Don't Like Mondays

I've never liked Geldof, but it's a good song.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 01:05 PM

"its not Geldof who decides that his song is a folksong. its the folks down the pub who sing it"
o itisn't, any more than those who go to The Last Night of the Proms decides whether 'Land of Hope and Glory is a folksong.
"Geldof's song was written long before Columbine"
Take your word on that Al - a misunderstanding of what you said.
"its the people who decide - the folk, every time."
No it isn't - it's the long term absorption into communities which make folk songs - not unanimous votes or repetition
If it were, every hymn we were ever forced to sing in school would be a folksong.
Repetition or popularity does not make a folksong - it really is more complicated than that.
Nobody gets a vote on what makes a folksong and them upstairs will never become one while you can hang a price-tag on it - those song will never be folk - they'll always belong to someone and be treated as a commodity - within our lifetimes anyway.
" they say they do - but they don't. otherwise i'd be a millionaire."
With respect Al - you are not Bob Geldof - thry telling his solicitors that his compositions ate folk because the sing it dahn the pub - or Strangers in the Night, or My Way or You'll Never Walk Alone, or Yellow Submarine.......
This really is a debasement of the coin
Imro and ORS are interested in milking whatever they are allowed to and their beilg allowed to hjas done a great deal of damage to those clubs which exist on a hand-to-mouth basis.
Son't think you ever explained your Upper-case outburst about Glochamorra and Travellers being debarred from creating folksongs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 01:26 PM

""A man sits alone on a bus. Another man gets on and sits in the seat in front of him. The man in front opens the window. The chap behind him is annoyed that he is sitting in a draft and that this person has opened the window with no thought for him, so he closes it. The other man promptly opens it again and the man behind closes it. This is repeated a few times more. When the window has been opened yet again, the man behind asks the other chap "Here mate, what"s your game?" The other man replies "Drafts and it"s your move". ""

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 01:31 PM

The silicon chip inside her head.
Gets switched to overload,
And nobody's gonna go to school today,
She's going to make them stay at home,
And daddy doesn't understand it,
He always said she was as good as gold,
And he can see no reason.
'Cause there are no reasons.
What reason do you need to be sure.

Tell me why.
I don't like Mondays.

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot.
The whole day down.

The Telex machine is kept so clean.
As it types to a waiting world,
And Mother feels so shocked,
Father's world is rocked,
And their thoughts turn to.
Their own little girl.
Sweet sixteen ain't that peachy keen,
No, it ain't so neat to admit defeat,
They can see no reasons.
'Cause there are no reasons.
What reason do you need oh, woaah

Tell me why.
I don't like Mondays.

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot.
The whole day down
Down, down
Shoot it all down

All the playing's stopped in the playground now
She wants to play with her toys a while
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning
And the lesson today is how to die,
And then the bullhorn crackles,
And the captain tackles,
With the problems and the how's and why's
And he can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die

Tell me why.
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why

I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like, I don't like, I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like, I don't like , I don't like Mondays

I want to shoot, the whole day down. ,
I disagree , i do no think it is a good song,In my opinion the tune is bland and samey, neither am i impressed with the lyrics, compare it to imagine or masters of war, two songs with strong messages and memorable tunes, so we will have to agree to disagree

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 02:03 PM

I never liked it much either... no big deal...

So what if Geldof was always more gob and ego than talent...

.. and he was never a proper authentic punk rocker either....😜

let's move on..

There are always plenty of far better artists and music to celebrate and enjoy...😎

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 03:20 PM

a quick question for the trendy folkies with browsers enabled for emoticons...

How many can you see in my last post ?

a] 1 ? - if you can see only one is it "tongue & wink" or "sunglasses" ?

b] 2 ?

c] 1 and an empty rectangle ?

My emoticon plugin seems to be playing up since I had to reinstall chrome browser
a few weeks ago... 😕

cheers...

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 03:37 PM

They all look like squares to me.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:41 PM

Tongue & Wink and Sunglasses on my iPad.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:58 PM

cheers Backwoodsman - that's interesting and odd
because my browser only shows one per post...

[I can only see tongue and wink and an empty box..]

...Time for another re-install [if i can be arsed] this weekend...???



Or I could spend some time listening to some modern music instead for a change...😜

I just asked the mrs to recommend me some up to the minute music
that her teenage nephews listen to,
and she says they mostly listen to 80s music...???😬

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:03 PM

most of the songs we learned at school were folksongs that the Wesleys or the Bunyans put to work.

i don't know why you can't grasp the fact that the modern world gives the writer of folksongs a greater chance of communities to absorb songs. that was my community down the pub last night and they had absorbed the Geldof song.

the coin doesn't need debasing - the whole point is that it comes from the base of society - not the handers out of subsidies, prizes, honours, doctorates....al the tags of respectability.

Can't you see that that's why these gypsy communities were able to be so creative. the English middle classes didn't get their pudgy paws on their culture and bugger it up.

what you need to grasp is what the Yank blues blues scholars had trouble getting the hang of. they called muddy waters music..the blues in decadence...the last gasp of culture in a violent decadent society.

the animus to write song -its there in humankind like the urge to so sing, to dance, to express your identity.
And when it happens without the pat on the shoulder from matron....its folksong. it will change, it will be stolen by the people to use how they wish.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 03:35 AM

"How blah blah to see Musket endorsing a homophobic song"

Amazing. I wrote part of it, you TC. It is taking the piss out of both those who see being gay as a threat to society and those who put mealy mouthed platitudes. Remind you of anyone Keith? Prat.

Mind you, by trying to turn it into a homophobic song, Dick, (through his lack of grasp on reality) and Keith (his track record in homophobic posts in the BS section) are turning Mitch's little ditty into a folk song in the 1954 tradition. Irony or what?

Terribulus. Thanks for saying Marc Bolan would have made a good Musket. Sadly, although two of us still perform, none of us have his talent, vision, ability or looks.

"Me I funk but I don't care!
I ain't no square with my corkscrew hair."

Poetry .

Notice that? Keith A Hole of Hertford and Terribulus make a solitary contribution each, neither about the thread, both about their fan fixation with me. (And me.). (And me.) 😎

By the way Al, I (that's the me typing) sing regularly at a folk club 100yds from where Charles Wesley sat writing words to traditional melodies. Does it give me inspiration? Err.. No. Pity, but that's my fault for being rational I suppose.

Mind you, I have written folk songs. Quite a few in fact. If your signature isn't on the pompous 1954 dictat, you can safely ignore it.

A bit like Peggy Seeger's new folk album.... Or the many folk songs Ewan MacColl wrote.

Ditto Vin Garbutt.

Ditto John Connolly

Ditto Bernie Parry

Ditto Seth Lakeman

Ditto Martin Simpson

Shall we cross the pond yet?

Ditto Bob Dylan

Ditto Tom Paxton

Ditto Louden Wainwright III

Ditto quite a few in fact...

You could say that the term "folk song" has evolved



In the 1954 tradition..
😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 03:57 AM

"gives the writer of folksongs a greater chance of communities"
You seem to want to persist with this silliness without qualifying your arguments Al, so here goes
Nobody sits down and writes folksongs - they evolve by selection, adaptation and transmission - somebody writes a song, passes it on and whether it is widely accepted or not decides whether or not it becomes "folk"- repeating it down the pub regularly doesn't feature in that process.
Songs like 'Mondays' don't stand a chance of being part of that process as their writers make damn sure that anything done with them is bought and paid for.
You want to call the song a folk song - who agrees with you - I've never met anybody crass enough to claim that what Elvis, or The Boomtown rats, or Cliff Richard... sings is 'folk', other than a folkie.
Do the lads down the pub call it folk?
They don't in our local, so it must be folk where you live but not here in Clare
This makes a nonsense of the language and destroys all chance of intelligent communication.
I came to the music as a listener, than as a singer - later I became more deepply interested and began to research, and eventually collect.
If I wanted information, I would go to the books - 'Folk Songs in Britain' 'English Folk Song, Some Conclusions', 'The Ballad Tree', 'Living With Ballads'
Then there were the collections, 'The Penguin books' from various countries', Child. Sharp, Greig........ over a a centuries worth of study and collecting, trying to come to terms with this special and unique music.
Can you show me where Boomtown Rats features in all that, or The Beatles, or Gerry and the Pacemakers?
'Course you can't, because they don't
The misuse of the term is by a handful of self-interested folkies, some of them, it would seem have no knowledge or particular liking of folk song.   
So again - what body of research do I go to to find that 'I Don't Like Mondays' is a folk song - what collection of folk songs will I find it in?
Give us a break Al - adapting the language only works if everybody does it enough for it to be established as a definition U.D.I. (Unilateral Declaration of Independence) doesn't hack it if we are going to continue talking to each other and make sense
As I said - a debasement of the coin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:25 AM

I more or less agree with all you write on this subject Jim, but how would you categorise performers like Sting and the songs he has written, for example..".Mine the black seam" and Fields of gold".

A serious question, not a wind-up.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM

Musket, here is the song you helped write.
It mocks gay and trans people.
Only a homophobe would perform such a thing.
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song- lyrics/My_Proper_Name_is_Clarence.htm

---

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=8549

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM

"Mind you, by trying to turn it into a homophobic song, Dick, (through his lack of grasp on reality)"
Jim Carroll, has seconded my recollection of Tom Brown singing that particular song, strange that two unconnected people are out of touch with reality.
I happen to like Stings work that includes the wilson family, an example of modern music that in my opinion is not bland and samey, I am not sure what its description is perhaps roots music is apt.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:35 AM

Sorry, link no good.

My Proper Name is Clarence
My Proper Name is Clarence
(John "Mitch" Mitchell)

While sitting in a hostelry, alone one Sunday night,
A fella came across to me and asked me for a light,
He offered me a cigarette; he bought me half a beer,
And we were getting friendly when he whispered in my ear.

cho: "My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
    I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
    My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
    In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you."

Well I supped my jar; I left that bar, faster than a scalded cat,
Caught the landlord's eye as I went by and I stopped just for a chat,
I said, "Hey, he's propositioned me. Do you allow that there 'ere?"
Well he didn't get riled, in fact he just smiled and he whispered in my ear.

Well off I did go, to the new disco, to find myself a bride,
Picked up this pearl of a pastry girl, took her for a ride,
In the back of the car, I got so far, then I froze with fear,
When I felt a lump and my heart went thump and a voice whispered in my ear.

Next day at eight, I called my mate, he promised not to tell,
By a quarter to nine the production line, the foreman knew as well,
They called me misses and they blew me kisses, the boss he got to hear,
For me he sent, to the office I went and he whispered in my ear.

I joined the health service, to train to be a nurse,
With stethoscope and fob watch, with pride I fair did burst,
My charge nurse said he'd teach me, the kiss of life technique,
Well first he turned the lights down and when he began to speak, he said,

"My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:40 AM

Whence the difference?
Still Sting's song and always will be - doesn't make it a good or bad song.
It's not the subject matter which makes a song 'folk'
I neer once, in the years I knew him, heard MacColl refer to one of his songs as 'folk', though he was takig his subjects from working lives and quite often, basing his language on recorded actuality taken from people like Jack Elliot, or Sam Larner or The Stewarts.
He went out of his way to point out that his songs weren't folk songs and at no time was he part of a club that called itself a 'folk club'.
The argument was that it was possible to get pleasure from singing and listening to the songs and it was also possible to use the forms of folk songs to make new songs - whether they became 'folk' really wasn't our decision to make - that was down to posterity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:58 AM

A couple of occasional verses missing and one there not written by Mitch, nor me, nor Larry West (who has contributed a verse or two.). It is a living folk song you see, and adding verses from time to time to reflect current affairs..

When Blunt was revealed as a spy, Mitch wrote a verse with "James Bond and them think my name's M". You can guess the rest.

By the way, as the bloke who wrote the car verse, it is Page 3 girl, not pastry girl.

"Only a homophobe would sing such a thing."

Let's see, McMusket had "Clarence Corner on a plaque where he and his then boyfriend and mates used to hang out at The Frog and Nightgown in Worksop. One of the best ovations I ever had was at a fundraiser for Amnesty International after I sang it, following a speech by a (young) Stephen Fry about gay persecution and torture in certain African States and..

The best bit.. Or worst bit, depending on context.

Tom Brown started singing it following his grandson being put in hospital by some thugs outside a gay bar in Nottingham.



You know Keith...

Seriously..

You really are the lowest form of despicable creature, aren't you?

It's becoming less funny laughing at you, it really is. Your true character seems to be coming out. Hopefully, Musket won't read this as he is still in India and other than an email over our holiday plans this year to go and see them, he hasn't bothered with Mudcat whilst away, so won't catch up.

It can't be nice, being gay and then reading your twisting counter bigotry.

Dick not seeing the irony, I can understand. His posts aren't always rational anyway. Jim can't even remember what he types, as he has or hasn't had Tom Brown at the singers' club. (I know the answer by the way.). But Keith tries to put himself about as being serious, and that makes Mudcat hum a bit from the stain.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 05:09 AM

"as he has or hasn't had Tom Brown at the singers' club."
Yup - Whatever you might "know" Tom was booked at the singers o the recommendation of Frankie Armstrong - got the programme with his name on it somewhere
He upset several of the audience with his song, so he was not asked back.
"Jim can't even remember what he types"
When did I ever say different?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 05:30 AM

You said he never was booked, then you said he was. I was questioning your consistency when pulling others up over irrelevant points. Live with it.

I drove him there. (He went back on the train as I recall, I must have had some other work commitments. Long time ago, sketchy memories. Still, it doesn't matter because only Keith is interested now, and he covers his own agenda by calling everyone else liars.)

Frankie was booked at Worksop by Mitch (small world eh?) about a year ish previously, which is where it possibly stemmed from. Tom and Bertha were regulars, living walking distance from the club.

"I heard a singer in a club, Singing quite off key
A retired teacher of a Christian bent, shouting "Tra la lee!"
Everybody in The Great Eastern pointed, laughing in their beer,
He said "they lie through their teeth,
My real name's not Keith,
And he whispered in my ear.."


Getting rusty. It scans with the tune though.

Tsk. I said he is below laughing at him, but I'm a kind hearted old Musket really.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 05:46 AM

The song as reprinted by Keith, seems designed to get a cheap laugh out of homosexuality and homosexuals.....is this "homophobia"?

"Homophobia" is defined as irrational hatred or fear of homosexuals.

The song is not to my taste, as I think the issue too serious to be joked about. I would never sing or applaud such a piece.
I agree about the hypocrisy involved by the authors.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 06:16 AM

"You said he never was booked, then you said he was."
Where?
I didn't and he was
I'm not interesr#ted in prolonging this - you have done so with your calling people liars than your stiupid reasons for his doing so.
For crying out loud - you are doing yourself no favours, nor are you helping Tom Brown's memory - he was an old singer who sang a distasteful song which proved unacceptable for our audience - end of story as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 06:45 AM

Musket, you say you wrote the car verse, but I would have guessed the National Health verse that plays to the stereotype of the gay male nurse.

Perhaps you are ashamed of it.
You should be.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 07:16 AM

I'm ashamed on behalf of Musket for meeting you and not weighing up the odious part of you..

NHS? What has that to do with a twenty odd year old miner? Meeting a lass at a club resonates I suppose, but no lump, no Adams Apple either. Most folk songs I wrote were well before getting involved in healthcare, although I have never actually been employed in The NHS as such, just chairing bodies, working for regulators and providing consultancy support to turn round failing services. (Musket and Musket are NHS through and through of course, but don't forget, the whole point of sharing a log in is because of posts such as yours above. I rest my case..)

Mind you, in the same way as Warren Mitchell and Johnny Speight were role models in flushing out bigotry by laughing at them by seeming to laugh with them (Alf Garnett) we too seem to have suffered the same fate.

If you can't laugh at stereotypes, you may wish to ask if you laugh with them.

Perhaps you might want to question Akenaton as to why he can't laugh at satirising homophobes. Silly me.. You never do, do you?


Oh..

Jim.

Here you go. From one of your posts above, after you mentioned the singers club booking Tom, you then later said,


"Sorry too that The Singers Club wasn't prepared to book your old buddy because of the homophobic nature of what he sang."


Don't get me wrong. I make allowances for age, confusion and blinkered views, but as you don't, I thought it best to pull you up. I'm sure a younger you would understand.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 07:53 AM

no don't the blokes down the pub, or even people like you Jim to call it a folksong. they can call it aurora borealis, they can call it Stenhourmuir, they can call it a velociraptor.

What i want you to try and grasp is that once its in the folks's heads. it IS folksong. it IS theirs! THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHAT THEY LIKE WITH IT!

and that is the nature of folksong.

that is how folk song is created.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 08:08 AM

God preserve us from these sanctimonious eejits who think they can look at the printed words of a song and elicit its sentiments without hearing it sung in context. The whole point of song lyrics is that, unlike poetry, they are incomplete in themselves, just as the notes on a page do not anything like fully represent a jig or a reel. What Keith and Akenaton are up to amounts to no more than bitter, opportunistic sniping. Very demeaning.

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 08:34 AM

"they can call it aurora borealis, they can call it Stenhourmuir, they can call it a velociraptor."
But they don't, any more than they call it 'folk sng' - you're the only one who does that.
"THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHAT THEY LIKE WITH IT!"
Except circulate or sing it publicly - not without paying royalties for doing so - the basic difference between folksong and commercially produced folsongs.
I take it you can give no references to your definition being an established one course you can't - one doesn't exist, therefore you made it up - language and communication doesn't work like that any more than your definition(sic) of folksong doesn't work like that.
Sorry al - debasing both folk song and the English language..
Muskie
You are now deliberately distorting what I said
My first reference to Tom was:
"fraid he did - was there when he sang it as guest at the Singers Club - got up a few people's noses and we didn't book him again."
Clear and plain enough for anybody to read - my second posting (which to took out of context) was a repetition of the first
For ***** sake Muskie, if you haven't got the sense to come in out of the rain on your own behalf - for the sake of the memory of Tom Brown, have the decency to leave him to rest.
I have no time for Keith, Ake or The Skibbereen Stalker, but you are feeding them their ammunition like an Ernie Wise on speed - leave it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 09:13 AM

You started it you silly old bugger! You brought up I Don't Like Mondays in order to make me look a twat, just like the low life you reckon I am feeding! Seems some people who have a less constrained view on folk agree with Mr Burland and yours truly. (I might be opening for him soon at a concert, just been asked.)

I weighed in to this debate discussing musical taste versus definition. The fan club came later, and in this, both you and your Skibbereeen Stalker are waiting at the stage door with the rest of them.

Christ on a bike. I came here to discuss music, not feed Keith or his worm's personality disorder.

Can we please get back to the subject?

Folk music is what you say it is. If you happen to be called Jim. It is what I say it is if you are called Ian, ditto Al etc. It has evolved (as your 1954 dictat allows) into modern interpretation and relaying modern song. The format is irrelevant. Whether a broadsheet peddler makes a penny or Geldof makes a million is neither here nor there.

Even your mentor MacColl wrote songs to be the folk songs of tomorrow, by his own account. Considering it's getting on thirty years since he last wrote a song, I reckon the cock is crowing on tomorrow, don't you?

I don't like Mondays is even older.....