BS: Fracking

Subject: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 01:34 PM

See about 20 minutes into the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: olddude
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 04:08 PM

There will be no drinkable water if corporations have their way, nor fish. I wonder if we can drink natural gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 04:44 PM

thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 04:58 PM

Don't give them the idea, olddude, or they'll start working on that idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 06:51 PM

Ebbie... they are banking on it. It's already in their agenda. I have been researching this for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 06:57 PM

BTW... if you have a couple of months to read about fracking and you are on Facebook, here is my group which is only about education... only supplying links... NO discussion allowed... just the facts.

Frack

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 08:54 PM

Unfortunately what most people refuse to believe is that all the $$$ decisions abiut where and when to frack have already been made. The money's already moved and the infrastructure has already been planned with target states. People who don't want to deal with that probably think Jean Ritchie's were the only mountain s and cultures stripped. Or strippable. The damage is done. We need to start on the after stodyy, nit waste time 'protesting.' These decisions have already been made when we weren't looking.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:25 AM

I don't think the situation is as bleak as you paint it, Susan.
Here's what happened in my adopted hometown. Local groups are forming all over the country and pushing back against the industry and their own governments. The fracking issue has the potential for getting a lot of people involved in the environmental movement who never gave it much thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:49 AM

"At least 15.3 million Americans lived within a mile of a well that has been drilled since 2000."

from

http://www.quora.com/How-many-people-are-affected-by-hydraulic-fracturing-fracking?ref=huffingtonpost&rel_pos=1

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:59 AM

Gillymor, time will tell. But the money to buy your govt has already moved. If your group gas been 'able' to delay things, it's more likely caused by the dip in the gas market.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:50 AM

Cause for optimism.
Politicians like money but they can't get that money without votes and will reverse positions in the blink of an eye to keep their jobs. It's up to all of us to keep the pressure on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 09:02 AM

"It's up to all of us to keep the pressure on them."

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:29 AM

Politicians who have made the deals will be sure to honor the mob contingent involved, when the market reverses. The only 'safe' frackfree zone in NY, for example, willebe the mob's family vacation lake areas. I don't mind that folks don't agree with me. Many who have not in the past are the ones who call me now to apologize for not having listened.

It's all the same to me, and I wish with all my heart you were right.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:46 AM

To me this is not about being right it's about fighting this assault on the environment with hope and optimism while keeping my eyes wide open. As much as the American people are chided for their apathy, when the poison of greed starts coming through their kitchen taps they won't stand for it. If we do all we can to prevent this we don't have to apologize to anyone no matter what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:50 AM

when the poison of greed starts coming through their kitchen taps they won't stand for it

Ah, but by then it will be too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:53 AM

Wrong Greg, it already is and people are getting their backs up. Even ones who aren't experiencing it personally but can see what the future holds.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:35 AM

"I may win and I may lose, but I will never be defeated."

Emmitt Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 12:07 PM

Unfortunately, someone in the future could be writing many "Love Canal" stories, from the eagerness to "frak at will" with a lot of political will and little science.

Environmental lessons from history 

"What's the use of a fine house if you haven't got a tolerable planet to put it on?" 
― Henry David Thoreau

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 12:25 PM

Once upon a time in the Sahara Forest . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:34 PM

Wrong Greg, it already is and people are getting their backs up.

Uh..... but if it "already is" too late, then there's diddly-squat that can be done about it, with backs up or no eh?

What am I missing?

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 08:17 AM

Greg, when I wrote "it already is" I meant it already is coming through people's taps, not it already is too late. Hope that clears it up for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 10:19 AM

when I wrote "it already is" I meant it already is coming through people's taps

Has been for years. Doesn't seem to have made an impression on the vast majority of the populace.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 10:44 AM

We stopped them in Collier Co., Fl, at least for the moment. We're up against an state EPA that colluded with the violators, a governor who has banned the use of the term "Climate Change" in his administration and a Republican led state legislature that tried to attach an 11th hour rider onto a bill that would have banned legislation regarding climate change in Dade County for 20 years even though the main drag of Miami Beach (Collins Ave.) is often flooded on a high tide. It's not an easy fight but what is the alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 10:50 AM

It's not an easy fight but what is the alternative?

Go for it! I'm not saying they shouldn't be fought - these greedy a**holes need to be stopped. What I am saying is that the vast majority of the populace doesn't give a fart in a high wind about this - or about any of the corporatocracy's other abominations being perpetrated upon them. Count on the U.S. citizen to work diligently against his/her own best interests.

Vote Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 03:54 AM

Fracking first started in 1865 as a means of increasing oil and gas production. Why it should be such a source of controversy today escapes me. Fracking is a non issue. Ensuring well integrity would be a more profitable drum to beat.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Musket
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 06:23 AM

Nice to see those who feel a groundswell movement to question fracking consist of the same people who say you can't get a movement going to oppose capital punishment or equality because the political system is too complicated.

I guess your own back yard counts eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 08:55 AM

GUEST,Iain, The modern fracking technique is responsible for a host of documented health and environmental issues (and certainly some we don't know about yet) as energy companies increasingly use it in more populous areas and in environmentally sensitive areas. It's rapid expansion has found many states without up to date regulations in place to deal with problems like well integrity, ground water monitoring and usage of toxic chemicals (which energy companies seem to be very secretive about) just to mention just a few.
Plenty of info can be found on the link that gnu provides at 23 Apr 15 - 06:57 PM above or with a simple google search.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 10:27 AM

Ensuring well integrity

Except for the fact that "well integrity" CAN'T be ensured.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,iain
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 12:24 PM

There are many ways of ensuring well integrity, from initial well planning, the drilling, casing and cementing process, to down hole geophysics and surface monitoring. Modern studies suggest perhaps 25% of both on and offshore wells suffer from a lack of integrity.
This is the issue that needs to be addressed, not fracking.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 12:31 PM

GUEST,Iain - PM Date: 26 Apr 15 - 03:54 AM... "Fracking first started in 1865 as a means of increasing oil and gas production. Why it should be such a source of controversy today escapes me. Fracking is a non issue. Ensuring well integrity would be a more profitable drum to beat."

High volume slick water hydro fracturing using horizontal drilling has been done for not much more than ten years. Among other drawbacks, it kills.

BTW, I don't know how you read/watched my links compiled for two+ years in 2.5 days and came to post such a misinformed comment. Surely just my link in the OP would have been enough for you to embark on your own investigation. In that link, you should have noted that NY studied fracking under a moratorium from 2008 to December, 2014 and then BANNED it because they concluded that it is not safe and cannot be made safe regardless of regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 12:36 PM

GUEST,iain - PM Date: 26 Apr 15 - 12:24 PM... "There are many ways of ensuring well integrity, from initial well planning, the drilling, casing and cementing process, to down hole geophysics and surface monitoring. Modern studies suggest perhaps 25% of both on and offshore wells suffer from a lack of integrity.
This is the issue that needs to be addressed, not fracking."

More research is needed on your part to understand why your comment is invalid. I have laid it out for you in the links. It's up to you to do the leg work. I shall not engage you in discussion again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 01:26 PM

I would recommend you read the research papers on the subject and then you would appreciate that my statement is entirely valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 03:06 PM

The pros and cons of fracking. Good article.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 12:04 PM

thanks #, for providing a short explanation piece. it acknowledges problems, though I suspect that given the petro publisher, the opponents of fracking will say they were downplayed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 12:37 PM

Go to 5:10 minutes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 12:38 PM

Another interesting report from Canada-where, since, at least two provinces put a hold on future fracking, over public environmental concerns-at least until there is increased confidence that science has caught up with the race for development by this industrial sector.

Council of Canadian Academics 

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 02:37 PM

Gnu:

Thanks for posting that link. We thought we were pretty well educated about fracking but that video brought up and clearly explained a lot of issuess of which we were not aware.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 02:50 PM

Ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 08:30 PM

Our home has been surrounded by well pads for several years now. I live where the deer and paying tourists have left a whole booming economy destitute. My trees are dying from the filth kicked into the wind by the trucks that have devastated iur roads. The roads were regraded to prevent frack trucks from tipping, and a basement that had not been flooded since built in the mid 1800s, now hosts a new creek running thru it that is washing out the stacked stone foundation supporting an historic three-family home. We've been hauling water in 7 gallon cans of water from the not-yet-fracked-up county to the west-- that's 500+ pounds of water to fetch and lift into the house, up onto counters, etc., 3-4 times per year to fetch and daily dealing with pouring off into a 2 gal Brita tank for use, for two rapidly aging people. We have smaller swarms of peepers hatching each year. I haint heard ducks on the pond out back since this started. The workers have taken all the local housing, leaving uni students competing for inflated apartment space in attic garrets, and until gas and other investors built 4 new hotels-- that are bedbug cities-- one of the frack bizzes bought a local motel to use for mgmt, ran it into the ground, and then abandoned it. It sits empty , an eyesore. Our few cornfields (we have little topsoil in these mountainy parts-- now have acres of frack equipt, trucks, and pole buildings that will rust and be abandoned after the boom.

So we're not retiring here after all. We're going to an area so densely settled that frackbiz is not allowed.

People here fought. They thought they were winning.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,#
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 09:48 PM

Take a look at a fracking map of Alberta sometime. This stuff is bad news no matter how glossy the arguments are. Corporations have begun to rule things, call the shots. We elect politicians who allow it to happen.

I do foresee a day when people no longer protest lawfully or legally. We see it in expressions like 'eat the rich'. Many of the nicest people you (meaning all of us) know have stock/investment in BIG OIL. They smile all the way to the bank. Been going on for decades if not centuries.

So, here we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 10:15 PM

That is a sad story, Susan. I see why you're discouraged and I hope you all land in some place nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 10:58 PM

There is a small glimmer of hope.

Historically, we in the U. S. have accepted a certain amount of environmental destruction because we want the energy produced from it to run all our gadgets. This tacit agreement held as long as the destruction occurred in places we don't care much about and where the residents have little or no political influence.

However, fracking is done primarily on shale deposits which have never before been tapped. These deposits are not always in places we don't care about and, in fact, are sometimes in areas of great political influence so this might generate some real action.

For example, in 2014, Rex Tillerson, chairman and CEO of Exxon/Mobil joined a lawsuit to prevent the building of a water tower associated with fracking because it was within 300 feet of his 5 million dollar house in the Dallas area. Another party to this suit was Dick Armey, former Majority Leader in the House of Representatives.

It's okay to kill the mice but it's not wise to disturb the lion!

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 12:00 AM

Thank gnu for bringing back this critical environmental ruination of all our ground water

Thank you Sue for telling it like it is,

Today more of our food is grown with ground water pumping irrigation than ever before.

In 100 years it is 100% likely that the concrete frack well pipes will have cracked spreading even more of its poison in a concentrated area.
In the meantime the current flow of ground water can carry cancer chemicals far from its original site.

In 1955 Colorado Springs began its earth quakes from pumping nerve gas in petroleum deep underground.

Every geologist today knew this would happen with fracking.
This was part of the secret negotiations Cheney had with gas corporations.

Fracking is like injecting 1 cc of Polonium into your little toe and believing it won't effect your heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 01:11 AM

Donuel, what concrete frack well pipes? Well casing has always been very high grade steel matched to the product being produced.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:00 AM

I'm one of those people who still believes that nuclear power has potential, and I'm hesitant to believe scary talk about oil wells and the like. It's my belief that most natural resources can be used wisely, and that most people and corporations would like to see them used wisely.

But it's my understanding that fracking uses huge quantities of water. We're in the fourth year of a drought here in California, and water levels are at record lows. And yet there's fracking going on in many places in our state.

I can't understand that. Why not leave those oilfields as untouched reserves until there's a sufficient water supply?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 09:45 AM

Rex Tillerson, chairman and CEO of Exxon/Mobil joined a lawsuit to prevent the building of a water tower associated with fracking because it was within 300 feet of his 5 million dollar house

Glimmer of Hope? Hardly. The 1% have always been able to protect their interests, while the rest iof us get screwed over.

'Twas ever thus.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:09 PM

Thanks, Susan. Joe... lots on the net about fracking in CA and the water use and it's exemption from state issued water use restrictions.

I get links like this one every day (Go to my link above... Frack)... Susan, I hope you can get a decent $ for your property.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:19 PM

For the casual reader, many people know about groundwater and surface water contamination. Not so many know about the air pollution with flaring (24/7/365) which includes not just burning methane but extends to everything from radioactive radon gas to benzene to so many "zenes" and other poisons that it's hard to imagine anyone would do it. The flowback water contains hundreds of chemicals and... well... like I said... go to Frack and read/watch for a couple of months if you care to do so.

To the naysayers, just re flaring... get out a cigarette lighter, light it and suck the fumes into your lungs. Far better than living near a frack well.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:20 PM

Thanks, gillymor. They're not listening to me in NY state, either. Unfortunately, until a well is being "blown off" in your own backyard, it's not real enough. Until that horror show lights up your night sky and you hear a flamethrower times 100-- it sounds like business as usual. By then of course the trucks are massed on the borders of your favorite region and... it's already gone. Been gone since before you heard of fracking.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 09:56 PM

Greg:

It's certainly true that the one percent will not be harmed much by fracking. But, when fracking starts to occur in their backyards and oil trains explode in their cities and coal dust settles where they live, maybe, just maybe, it will raise their collective consciousness sufficiently to put the brakes on this nonsense.

Or are we being too idealistic?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 03:05 PM

Gnu, we rent.

Subject: RE: BS: Fracking
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 04:48 PM

Or are we being too idealistic?

In a word, yes. Unfortunately.

They have no conscience - and their conscionseness is only self-serving.

They don't give a fart in a high wind what happens to anyone else as long as they're OK.

Wish it were otherwise- but the 1% is making big bucks out of frracking and to them that's all that matters.

Be well,

Greg