BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 09:51 AM

a very dangerous job I would say.

Check the stats on coal mining and/or lumberjacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: GUEST,Flipper
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 08:10 AM

Both brothers fired shots that killed Officer Wilson

By Matt Gelb, March 27, 2015

Law enforcement officials have evidence that both Carlton Hipps and Ramone Williams fired fatal shots in the murder of Officer Robert Wilson III, prosecutors said Wednesday, adding that they were weighing whether to seek the death penalty in the case.

A preliminary hearing for the two men, scheduled for Wednesday, was delayed at the prosecution's request because the investigation is continuing.

Assistant District Attorney Brendan O'Malley said a daylong hearing is scheduled for May 20. Video from inside the GameStop store where Wilson was killed, plus testimony from a dozen witnesses, will be presented, he said.

"Both individuals fired shots that killed Officer Wilson," O'Malley said. "That absolutely will be proven."

On March 5, Wilson was inside the store at 21st Street and Lehigh Avenue as part of his regular patrol in the 22d District. While there, he wanted to purchase a video game for his son. Police say that witnesses told them the two defendants entered the store and began shooting when they saw the officer.

Police officials hailed Wilson, 30, as a hero for drawing the gunmen toward him and away from others inside the store.

An "in-depth investigation into the background" of Hipps and Williams has not been finished, Assistant District Attorney Brian Zarallo said. That could factor into the decision to pursue the death penalty.

"That's not a decision that is made lightly," Zarallo said. "Obviously there are a lot of considerations, and a great many of those factors are things we are analyzing and continuing to look into."

Hipps and Williams are brothers who lived in a two-story rowhouse in Brewerytown. Hipps, 30, spent five years in prison for robbing a liquor store with an illegal gun in 2004. He was released in 2009 and completed parole in September.

Williams, 25, had a record for assault, police said.

"I'm looking to hear the completeness of the evidence from the District Attorney's Office and then we'll go from there," said Andres Jalon, Williams' attorney. "I am an opponent to the death penalty, which is part of the reason why I'm in the case."

Michael Coard, Hipps' court-appointed attorney, offered his condolences to Wilson's family and called him "a real hero." The attorney noted there is considerable video and eyewitness testimony against Hipps, but maintained his client has a right to a trial. Hipps, who was shot in the leg by Wilson's partner, spent less than a week in the hospital before being transferred to jail.

Prosecutors said it was important to put an abundance of evidence on the record before trial. Videos from a nearby Rite Aid and body camera footage from a responding officer are among the evidence that could be shown in May.

"Under these circumstances," Zarallo said, "we feel it's important to make comprehensive record and to show the volume and depth of the evidence of the events that unfolded that day."

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 05:25 AM

Nice post, Joanne. I concur.

All lives matter, IMHO - black lives no less than any others. The death sentence is utterly immoral and reprehensible under any and every circumstance, but especially so when carried out without trial, on innocent unarmed civilians, by those whose responsibility is to uphold the law and protect those civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: CupOfTea
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 10:47 PM

Just stating the facts about people I know, Richard. You don't need to be enthusiastic about people *I* know from church. I just give context & I put myself in that context. You don't like my context, I'm ok with that. The fact that people go to church doesn't automatically make 'em saints, for a certainty.

The folks of color I know from church are my window on an every day experience that's largely different from mine, save for where we have the overlap of our faith life and come together to understand each other better. Church going with a mixed race congregation has given me the chance to understand things about racial politics that I could have no other way.

cheers,

Joanne in Cleveland (one very white chick)

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 05:49 PM

I am not enthused by the apparent praise "Church-going".

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 04:22 PM

OK, I found the stats....average annual numbers for the last decade.

149 per annum killed.
15404 per annum injured.....a very dangerous job I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 03:49 PM

I have found in my lifetime, that there are always a handful of people who will try to
Profit on the ttragedy of others. Cleaning out the drug and liquor store and setting fire to cover the evidence was exactly that.
TThankfully good people far outweigh them

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: GUEST,CupOfTea, no cookies
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 03:27 PM

In channel flipping through am news today, two black women caught my attention:

The mayor of Baltimore spoke in a terse, firm, reasonable voice of how wrong it is for the rioters to destroy the property and businesses "that we have worked so hard to build up" (hope I got the words right). Her insistence that the rioting was not in any way a protest, but mere thuggery was a brave stance to take. I get the feeling that she is one of many who are frustrated at how the necessary and peaceful protests are being marginalized or negated by violence.

The second was a news clip that had folks cheering, jeering and laughing at work: a mother smacking her adolescent son, chasing him home out of the riot - behaving as a really ticked off parent at a kid doing something stupid and nasty. Kid isn't going to live that down fast - hard to be hip to thug life when yer mamma beats year head home.

This attitude of Freddie Gray's death being a horrible action, but violence (and particularly violence within the black community and against people on their side) is not a reasonable reaction or way to make necessary change - this is what I'm hearing from my black friends. I admit my black friends tend to be educated, church-going, law abiding middle class folks - but they're very aware they're not immune from race profiling, with the possible dangers.

Righteous anger, in a calm voice, really needs to be the sound of the times.

Joanne in Cleveland (where the police officer's trial on over-kill of an unarmed black couple continues today)

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 03:08 PM

ARE there any figures available on the number of police officers killed or injured by firearms in the course of their duty?

This may give a little perspective to the discussion....I find US firearm laws rather strange, but I am sure a policeman's job is made very difficult given the availability of guns.

Our own cops are not usually armed, but they still manage to kill quite a few innocent people through mistaken identity or motive.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:48 PM

Watching the hordes of good people cleaning up the destruction caused by a group of criminals. Bad always loses to the good

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:44 PM

The authorities in the US (and in the UK and in a myriad of other places) always seem to project an image of extreme racism against black (and folk we term coloureds). Unfortunately the authorities always seem to go out of their way to prove their individual and collective racism.

This has been covered well in the two Radio Ballads by the Critics Group - one was aired but once by the Beeb, and the other was never aired - the Beeb cried off.

Listen and be appalled ... nothing has changed.

* The Iron Box (aired but once)

Search the Radio Times on Genome for details.

* Off Limits 2 (never aired - no. 2 of 6)

CJB

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:40 PM

All lives matter no matter the color some day perhaps in my grand children's time america will become color blind. My prayer

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:23 PM

People too quickly get defensive when they hear "Black lives matter," because in their white defensiveness they usually read/hear it like this: "BLACK lives matter (more)."

What it really means is, "Black lives MATTER, despite what we've all been taught."

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:16 PM

The news media was focused only on the unjust death of that Young man, the nation was appalled calling for justice. Now the media is non stop on a group of gang members looting, beating and destroying.. So sad so verysad

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:08 PM

It plays right into the hands of the cops. Now they will sit back and say see, this is why we are so aggressive. Sad because it takes all focus off the young man and his family.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:06 PM

We need justice for the young man. Burning and looting only makes it worse. Stealing drugs and burning the only pharmaceutical company near by for the elderly to use. It is thugs, good people were protesting orderly and I would have joined them if I could but lawless gangs of criminals using this as a reason to steal is appalling. My heart goes out to the good people who live there and the justice dept needs to get some answers. One elderly lady crying and said they begged cvs to come and they did. She said now were do I get my meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 01:52 PM

Spot-on, Susan. Wise words indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 01:19 PM

Regarding the inevitable posts expressing outrage over the rioting, I will quote first the most peaceful, thoughtful, articulate black man I know, who is just back from the Gray funeral and who has attended the funerals of many of those recently slain by badge-wearing people:

"That I'm reading more about property damage than a life lost is vexing. ‪#‎FreddieGray‬"

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 01:13 PM

There's another discussion on this topic here:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=156915


There's another more reliable (IMO) database of police violence (that describes its methodology) here: http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 12:55 PM

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 10:46 AM

Here ya go, guest. Simple Google search will turn up lost more data.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 10:43 AM

Well, Rap, been there, done that (several times), Francis Scott Key & all the rest.

What has Balmer tourism got to do with the death of amother Black man?

"Lynching, after all, is not an American instftution, but a peculiarly Southern institution, and even in the South it will die out as other more seemly recreations are introduced. It would be quite easy, we believe, for any Southern community to get rid of it by establishing a good brass band and having concerts every evening. "

... H. L. Mencken ( favorite son of Baltimore)

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 10:42 AM

Just out of curiosity, how many people have been killed by USA police in the last 12 months,
and how do the percentages compare by ethnicity ?

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 10:18 AM

Rap, I didn't include in my earlier post, but my grandmother and great aunts lived together in Baltimore for many decades. In the very neighborhood where all of the rioting took place (they were a couple of miles northwest from the CVS, up Liberty Heights). It is a lovely area, mixed income and mixed race. It's heartbreaking.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 10:15 AM

Each time it seems a tipping point *must* have been reached, it subsides, and another event occurs.

The news cycle has events it looks for, and right now, those events are the untimely and likely murders of young black men. A few years ago it was campus rape, it is always the death of a human by a pit bull (other breeds aren't on the radar). These things always happen, but the media lens moves around to the next popular story topic, looking for shiny objects to boost their ratings.

If the killing of 26 school children in Connecticut isn't going to shock the U.S. into enacting some sort of reasonable gun control, how will the serial deaths of young black men around the nation inspire reform in how police departments treat individuals their gaze falls upon? (I would say "arrest" but not all individuals they have killed lately have actually been under arrest).

Police departments should be able to see the writing on the wall regarding their attitudes toward young black men, because they're all being lumped together as bad actors if they don't make overt changes. The general U.S. population can't see past the glare of the NRA when it comes to general gun issues, but police should be able to see that the reason cops in Brooklyn are gunned down like sitting ducks is because of the gun entitlement the NRA spouts combined with anger over police actions.

There is a whole lot of reform that needs to happen here.

All of that said, there are members of the population who are opportunists. One group protests and waves signs, a few around the edge throw rocks, and a whole bunch decide it is payday and start looting. The suggestion by politicians that they are "thugs" may be crude but it's probably accurate - they're young and figure they won't be imprisoned for theft. The UK saw this kind of rioting a few years ago. The desire to destroy property or to acquire new items by theft, it's all in the mix. I doubt there are as many cameras in place in Baltimore, as there were in the UK, to enable officials to do a forensic examination of the spread of this looting and to identify individuals responsible for looting. But they should make the attempt.

The Diane Rehm show is discussing this topic in the first hour today. Baltimore is very near Washington, D.C. where this program is broadcast, and she asks the hard questions of expert guests. It might be worth a listen. The podcast will be available in a couple of hours, the program is on right now. (10-11am Eastern time).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 10:10 AM

Why don't you two come visit Baltimore? It's really a very nice city -- I know, I've been there any number of times.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 09:41 AM

Welcome to the "post-racial" U. S. of A.

Yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 08:32 AM

I don't think this killing will be swept under the rug, Richard. Now, the US Department of Justice is investigating, and the Feds tend not to fool around.

Subject: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 02:38 AM

Freddy Gray may have been an underworld drug dealing little toad, but that does not excuse police folding him up like a piece of paper, apparently seriously injuring him in the course of arrest, and covering up all information about his death, from a spinal injury, while in custody.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-gray-ticker-20150425-story.html#page=1

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-gray-ticker-20150425-story.html#page=1