BS: T-shirt slogan (French)

Subject: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 10:48 AM

In the wake of the Charlie Hebdo massacre, Steve Bell in the Guardian drew, in his satirical cartoon, a picture of a white-haired, blue eyed god sitting on a cloud in a T-shirt. The caption on the T-shirt was in French.

I can no longer exactly remember the French and am arguing with myself how it should best be rendered.   The English meaning was "THIS is what an omnipotent god looks like" - of course satirising the inherent racism in the way Xtianity was exported to Africa and other places, and the way the image of the father of a probably swarthy Semitic-looking saviour had come to be depicted as white. It also obviously carries a cross-reference to Islamic discussions of the omnipotence of Allah - and, because perfection belonged to Allah, the impiety of achieving perfection.

Online translator sites give: -

Ceci est ce que Dieu omnipotent ressemble

and

C'est ce qu'un Dieu omnipotent ressemble a (yes I know I left the accent off).

Now I have a problem with that "a" at the end of the sentence, in the second version, and I'm bothered that the first version does not use the reflexive construction "se ressembler" or an "a".

I don't quite feel linquistically comfy with

C'est auquel un Dieu omnipotent ressemble

I could turn it round and say "Un Dieu omnipotent ressemble a moi" or "Un Dieu omnipotent me se ressemble" but I'm not wholly confident of either and both lose the heavy-handed hit of THIS at the beginning.


But my French is badly out of practice.

Have we got a real expert, or a true Francophone, on here who can help me get the right emphasis with accuracy?

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 11:11 AM

PS - I have now traced the original workding which was "C'est ce qu'un Dieu tout-puissant ressemble" but it still bothers me that the verb is neither "se ressembler" or "ressembler a" - am I just old-fashioned?

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 11:47 AM

In French I would say:

Voici à quoi ressemble un Dieu tout-puissant

or more colloquially (but less divinely imperiously)

Voici de quoi a l'air un Dieu tout-puissant.

I'm not a native speaker, but am not far off native-speaker standard, and regularly spot grammatical/spelling errors made by not only my bilingual Franco-Irish kids but their entirely French-educated Franco-French cousins.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 11:59 AM

Thank you Guest

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 12:38 PM

Well Richard, you certainly drew an awful lot of meaning out of what sounds like a silly cartoon.   Do you happen to KNOW if that was the artists intent ?.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 12:40 PM

I do not think anyone ever denied that Jesus would have been of Arab appearance or ever claimed Him as white.
European artists have tended to portray Him as European, often dressing Him in contemporary (to them) clothing.
Take it up with them.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 12:51 PM

Yes, you were right about the "a" (with accent) - I like
Voici à quoi ressemble un Dieu tout-puissant
or
Voici l'air d'un Dieu tout-puissant

Cool question

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Monique
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 04:26 PM

Here is the cartoon and it reads "C'est ce qu'un dieu tout-puissant ressemble" which is the literal translation of "it's what an almighty god looks like", not the way it's said in French, 11.47am Guest and Mrrzy are right.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 05:14 PM

Thank you Mrrzy - I like your second rendition although it is a slight shame that it does not reflect the discussions of the Islamic theologians. I think I will get my T-shirt made with your words!

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 10:04 PM

KtheA: you really really don't understand white privilege or white entitlement, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 09:24 AM

Is there any reason that representations of God & Christ should have similar appearances.

God made man in his own image: Genesis 1:27
But Christ was made in likeness of men: Philippians 2:7

So maybe between the two the appearance of 'man' had changed (Darwin anyone?)

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 10:05 AM

KtheA: you really really don't understand white privilege or white entitlement, do you?

Actually I do, but I fail to see its relevance to how artists have portrayed Christ over the centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 15 - 03:40 AM

My point made, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 15 - 04:25 AM

I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 15 - 01:42 PM

You have phrased that incorrectly. You do not think.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 15 - 02:43 PM

So explain my misconception Richard, instead of just making silly comments.
Explain the relevance of "white privilege or white entitlement" to how artists have portrayed Christ over the centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 15 - 07:16 PM

Sigh. You have it backwards.

1. Although Jesus was pretty certainly not white but semitic in appearance, artists through the years have depicted him (and god) as blonde/white haired and blue eyed and pale skinned.

2. So over the years (and continuing) "white" people have become acclimatised to seeing thier complexion as reflexive of god and Jesus.

3. When proselytisers went to Africa, two things happened.

(a) They told the Africans to close their eyes to pray. Before that the missionaries had the bible and the Africans the land. When the Africans opened their eyes it was the other way round.

(b) they used faith-based bullying to tell Africans that they were inferior savages - exemplified by the "fact" that god and Jesus looked like the pale-skinned proselytisers, not like the Africans.

4. So the appearance of god and Jesus as so depicted fed into the white sense of superiority and the black sense of inferiority (which continues to be demonstrated today by the sale of "skin lightening" potions, often dangerous, with names like "Whitelicious".

If you don't get it, then it remains wholly obvious that you do not understand the issue at all.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 15 - 07:17 PM

PS - it is SO obvious that I inferred that you were being deliberately obtuse, playing the fool.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 15 - 02:15 AM

"not white but semitic in appearance"

.,,.,.

???? -- The term "semitic" does not subsume any particular colour. One of the oddities following the establishment of Israel has been the number of blonde blue-eyed Israelis born. Some sort of atavistic mutation or what? I was, for that matter, at school in London in the 1940s with the daughter of an orthodox rabbi who was a blue-eyed blonde. Her name was Shulamith Lerner, I recall.

But Jews, even when comparatively dark as usually conceived [like me eg - see my Youtube channel], are a white rather than a "coloured" ethnicity. But still semitic; or else what could "antisemitism" mean?

And so would Mary & Joseph & Jesus have been.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 15 - 02:29 AM

Don't think Jesus is usually depicted as "blond", for that matter, is he? Can't think of a painting in which he appears as other than dark-haired.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 15 - 04:55 AM

1. Although Jesus was pretty certainly not white but semitic in appearance, artists through the years have depicted him (and god) as blonde/white haired and blue eyed and pale skinned.

Artists depicted Him like the people around them, often in the same clothing.
Your implication of racism is just subjective.

2. So over the years (and continuing) "white" people have become acclimatised to seeing thier complexion as reflexive of god and Jesus.

More subjective assertion.
Everyone knows that Jesus was a Jew.

3. When proselytisers went to Africa, two things happened.

(a) They told the Africans to close their eyes to pray. Before that the missionaries had the bible and the Africans the land. When the Africans opened their eyes it was the other way round.

That is just a trite old slander.

(b) they used faith-based bullying to tell Africans that they were inferior savages - exemplified by the "fact" that god and Jesus looked like the pale-skinned proselytisers, not like the Africans.

Entirely made up.
No basis in history or fact.

4. So the appearance of god and Jesus as so depicted fed into the white sense of superiority and the black sense of inferiority (which continues to be demonstrated today by the sale of "skin lightening" potions, often dangerous, with names like "Whitelicious".

Any evidence that it "fed into" that?
No.
Just anti-faith assertions with no basis in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 15 - 05:14 AM

This Yahoo answer sounds authoriitative.
Is it?

"ALL Arabs are Semitic White, an ethnic group. Lebanese is Arab Semitic White- I am a proud Christain Arab American, by birth, of Lebanese ancestry. Arabs are Semitic White- 80% have dark hair, eyes, and olive(golden brown skin), 20 % run the gamut of other Whites- Southern Europeans(Greeks, Romans, Iranians/Persians, Turks, Southern Italians, Southern Germans, Tamils of India(dark brown)) look much like Arabs, the two groups often being mistaken for each other. This is based on skeletal measurements(mainly the skull) and haplomarkers. Arabs have all the Caucasian haplomarkers, plus 4 more, making Arabs Semitic rather than Indo Eropean Aryan, White, that no other ethnicity has- Arabs are NOT mixed. Here are the ethnic haplomarkers:

Caucasoid – E (only subclade E1b1b is a Caucasoid marker-all other sublades of E are N*egroid haplomarkers), F(Semites), H, I, J(Semites-1 & 2), K, L3(Semites), T, U, V(Semites), W, X, Y

Mongoloid(anthropologists now include American Indians(Red) and Malaysians(Brown) ethnicities in this group – C, D, F, G, O, Q, S- American Indians also have A, B, and X

N*egroid – A, B , E(except for subclade E1b1b which is a Caucasoid haplomarker), L1 & L2, M & N-all groups have these, but certain subclades are restricted to Blacks-presence of N in Blacks is not clearly defined and is possibly considered due to genetic backflow rather than present normally"
https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091214040903AAjABLG

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 May 15 - 06:22 AM

Who's putting those silly asterisks in there, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Thompson
Date: 02 May 15 - 06:24 AM

C'est ici

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 May 15 - 06:26 AM

Another thing, Keith. There probably was no Jesus anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Thompson
Date: 02 May 15 - 06:27 AM

Damn, didn't work. Found it with an image search for "steve bell", and god on cloud.

It says "C'est ce q'un dieu tout-puissant ressemble". This page should have it - the other link was to an image, but obviously the Guardian doesn't put its images online as jpegs.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 02 May 15 - 06:50 AM

For the record, Guest above was me. I didn't realise I wasn't logged in. Haven't been around the Mudcat for a while, but glad to see it hasn't changed much ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 15 - 08:38 AM

Steve, I do not know if the contributor or Yahoo added the *s
The existence of Jesus is not relevant to this discussion, so why mention it?

(Some of the early Christians knew Jesus and many more knew of him.)

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 May 15 - 09:08 AM

So we are discussing what colour Jesus might have been, but whether he even existed is not relevant, eh? You've got me scratching my head here all right, Keith. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 15 - 10:03 AM

We are discussing His portrayal as a European rather than as an Arab.
Also the portrayal of God who even if He exists was never human at all Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 15 - 11:58 AM

Where does "Arab" come into it, Keith? He was a Jew -- semites both, but scarcely entirely cognate.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Thompson
Date: 02 May 15 - 01:52 PM

Thank you very much, Thompson… how kind of you, Thompson… You're very welcome. Don't mind me.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 15 - 03:36 PM

I looked at the page Thompson.
Thank you.

Michael, I used "Arab" as synonymous to "Semite."
I know it is wrong but it otherwise often confuses.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 May 15 - 05:09 PM

I should be very surprised if the majority of Christian missionaries had plans to take away anyone's land. They were not perfect, and maybe there were some scoundrels, but Richards blanket accusation sounds like a gross exaggeration at best, and is more likely a slur born out of his anti Christian crusading. As far as depictions of Christ are concerned, different cultures conceptualised his appearance in accordance with their own, and I have seen African looking Jesus' . Where then the notion that they were hoodwinked into relinquishing their lands?   In fact, sounds rather racist to me, like perpetuating the ignorant savages Darwinian mindset.                                                 Steve scratching his head, because Jesus was conceptualised in art, even though he claims a lack of evidence for his existence. I am sure that some other things are accepted as historic with much less evidence . Rejection of the evidence for the existence of Jesus has more to do with philosophical preferences than objective evidence IMO. But either way, keith is quite right that whether or not he existed is not directly applicable to the argument beginning this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: T-shirt slogan (French)
From: Thompson
Date: 02 May 15 - 05:47 PM

You're welcome, Keith A.