BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 05:48 AM

I'm a leftie and I'm bloody proud of it. Oddly, "righties" often take umbrage when called what they are. I'm on the far left, Keith, and you're on the far right. Yeah, that sounds good...

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 06:12 AM

"I have not mentioned immigration once Jim."
This has always been about immigration - housing, overcrowding, 'the enemy within'...
You have always made your position cleat, even though you are now desperately backpeddling by (somewhat mind-bogglingly) claiming to have nothing against it.
You are still trawling the net for quotes opinions.
Immigration always surfaces as an issue around an election - it is what keeps the right in office - it is the raison d'être of parties like the BNP and Ukip - your arguments echo theirs perfectly
You are of the extreme right and now you have made your "leftie" accusations, you have guaranteed closure of this thread - your intention, no doubt.
Whatever the politics of people here, yours is the only argument that is politically driven, virtually all your opponents' arguments are simple common sense backed up by documented facts (anot forgetting humanitarianism, somewhat missing from your outlook on life
Your claims don't add up - they are contradicted by all the data you have been given - even the 'Man From the Ministry' has said that there is plenty of room in Britain and immigration is to be welcomes (whatever your politicians say.
You have no case, you never had one - now if you are not prepared to discuss this honestly (you could start by stating your obvious objection to immigration) leave it to those who are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 06:30 AM

Or maybe "herd thiko foe fart"?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 07:25 AM

I am centre right Steve.
Mainstream.
You will find no far right statements or comments in any post of mine.
You lie about me.

Jim, you people keep mentioning immigration but I have never raised the issue at all, and "rabid right attempts to demonise immigration " is just more made up slanders Jim.
I have never done it.


I happened to say originally, in a post about our tolerance, that England is about the most densely populated country.
It is.
It is third (or fourth if you count the island of Taiwan).

That is my whole case.
Are you done with all the howls of lefty indignation and outrage?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 07:38 AM

Rule changes again I see. The list of things that have to be defined by Keith gets longer every thread. To date the list of things that can only be defined by him is

Cultural implants
Historians
Ethnic cleansing
Insults
Political leanings
Population density

I am sure I have missed some but I can't keep up with this redefinition game all the time. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 08:37 AM

I love to proudly howl my far-leftie indignation at you, Keith, and regard it as a compliment when you recognise it as such. But if you're "centre-right" I'm the Queen of Sheba. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 08:40 AM

Population density is very clearly defined and easy to understand Dave, and it is not "defined by Keith."

It is population divided by area.

I said that England is about the most densely populated country.
It is.
It is third (or fourth if you count the island of Taiwan).

That is my whole case.
Are you done with all the howls of lefty indignation and outrage?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 08:41 AM

"I have never raised the issue at al"
Yes you have - you raised it on the thread about housing shortages and you are raising it now - this subject is about defending the deportation of immigrant nurses and you are defending it on the basis that Britain is overcrowded.
In the past, you have accused Asian immigrants being a 'cultural' threat to Britain's security.
It's all about immigration and immigrants - and your views are far from "mainstream".
Many of them contravene British law - members of Ukip have been forced to resign following slips in which they made statements far less extreme than yours.
Even the B.N.P. since it embarked on efforts to be regarded as a serious parliamentary contender, no longer make public statements as extreme as yours.
You complain of being insulted, yet you accuse those who disagree with you of being "liars" and Muppets" and "dupes"
Whenever you are in trouble, you turn on people and accuse them of being 'lefties' (as now)
Personally, I have no problem with that - I only have to remember that it was right-wing German ndustrial capitalism that shipped sx million Jews off to the Nazi extrmiation units.
I have no political allegiances - just views on humanity - if that makes me a "leftie", maybe I should reconsider and join something!!
No doubt this argument will get yet another thread closed, but I would suggest to those in charge that, given the extremism of your views, nobody can reasonably expect there not to be a strong rection to them - especially as they are now a regular feature of your input to this forum.
It seems we are beig left with the alternaives of putting up with your extreme statements or have thread after thread closed - hardly democratic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 08:42 AM

But if you're "centre-right" I'm the Queen of Sheba.

OK Your Majesty, find one far right statement or comment made by me.
Good luck with that O Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 08:46 AM

this subject is about defending the deportation of immigrant nurses and you are defending it on the basis that Britain is overcrowded.

Another lie Jim.
I spoke against their deportation in my very first post to the original thread.

I later said that England is about the most densely populated country.
It is.
It is third (or fourth if you count the island of Taiwan).

That is my whole case.
Are you done with all the howls of lefty indignation and outrage?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 09:50 AM

I'm not. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 09:58 AM

"Another lie Jim."
Will you stop calling people liars.
"I later said that England is about the most densely populated country"
If anything is a lie - this is
The statistics you have been given make it the 52nd - you have had 13 examples which exceed British numbers so far.
The fact that you keep repeating your "about the most densely populated" nonsense in the face of the figures you have been given (on a thread about deporting foreign nurses)makes your attitude to immigration crystal clear
If you don't agree with the figures you have been given, say so instead of calling people liars
It relly doesn't make your case for you
26 Jun 15 - 02:02 PM   - 26 Jun 15 - 02:41 PM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 09:59 AM

Yet another lie, Keith. I have not howled. Indignantly or in any other way. The point I am making, as I am sure you well know, is that you cannot compare immigration to the UK with the density of only one part of it. I think it is time for that obscene name but I cannot think oof one bad enough at the moment.

Now, you promised you had nothing to add some time back. Bearing in mind that this thread is supposed to be an attempt at humour, albeit feeble at times, do you think you could do the decent thing and just fuck off?

And before you start on that, you said yourself that phrase was not an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 10:00 AM

"I spoke against their deportation in my very first post to the original thread."
Lip service Keith - you have spent the bulk of your postings showing that immigration is a bad thing.
" later said that England is about the most densely populated country."
The data you have been given prove that it is the 52nd - the fact thatyou continue

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 10:08 AM

Jim, to be fair, Keith has never said that the UK is one of the most dense. Just England. He is right about that but you could of course continue that trend by taking London out of England, which would then make England pretty sparse. As someone once said, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 10:10 AM

I'd settle just for taking Boris Johnson out of London.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 10:48 AM

whoops - premature ejaculation again
the fact that you continue to put up false claims of overpopulation makes yous attitude clear
If you have any problem with where Britain lies in the overcrowding league acoording to the figures you have been given, (26 Jun 15 - 02:02 PM ) and (26 Jun 15 - 02:41 PM ) feel free to disprove them - otherwise, they are what they say they are and you have no case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 11:11 AM

"Just England."
"England" doesn't feature in the charts - it's part of the U.K. (pretty sure somebody has pointed that out).
The daily Telegraph which associated overpopulation with immigration contains a link to a report by the Department of Statistics figures on which their claims are based - that report makes no mention of "immigration" as being the root cause of overpopulation - that is a "Telegrahism".
As has already been pointed out, Britain's population problems are based mainly around the South Eastern cities and are tracable directly back to how British policy works - the impoverishment of the areas outside of the Greater London 'Pale, which forced many Northerners 'like me' to fly south for work - any overcrowding there is, is where the jobs are - Thatcher's North-South divide has made that a permanent feature of British life
The link to the article from the Government employee, welcoming immigration as beneficial to Britain deals with this and warns of the deliberate misuse of superficial claims withot analysing them.
Here we have the ludicrous situation of nurses in vital, life-saving jobs, separately understaffed, under the threat of deportation   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 11:24 AM

England exists.
I linked to Guardian articles about England's population growth.
The lefty site Jim and Dave linked to ranks England as among the most densely populated countries.
The Telegraph also described England as such.

I said that England is about the most densely populated country.
It is.
It is third (or fourth if you count the island of Taiwan).

That is my whole case.
What do you people deny?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 11:45 AM

Office For National Statistics.

"In mid-2013 the population density of England was 413 people per sq km compared with 149 people per sq km in Wales and 135 people per sq km in Northern Ireland. Scotland has the lowest population density at 68 people per sq km."

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 11:50 AM

Please can anyone tell me why, on reading this thread and the previous one, now closed, a quotation attributed to Joseph Gobbels often comes to mind? I'm referring to the one that goes -
If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 12:06 PM

Vic, you're not suggesting KAOH lies are you. He's told us often enough he does'nt lie so it must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 12:09 PM

"Office For National Statistics."
And if you go into those figures you will find that the most densely overpopulated ares are those where the jobs are concentrated - in the South East - nothing to do with emigration - everything to do with deliberate Government policy of centring Britain's wealth around the capital and keeping the provinces impoverished - Thatcher's North/South divide.
In order to divert from this, rags like the Telegraph, Mail and Express blame immigration on the situation, even the civil servants responsible for monitoring population affairs recognise the valuable contribution made by immigrants.
As I pointed out, your Telegraph article blames immigration, yet the link it gives to the source of its information does not mention the subject.
As much as you may wish otherwise, England is part of the United Kingdom - the United Kingdom comes 52nd in the overcrowding league and any overcrowding there is is around the South East
Perhaps you'd like to suggest that England secedes from the Union and runs her own affairs - as things stand, statistically, she is regarded no differently than Birmingham
SOME MORE STATISTICS WHERE ENGLAND OR the UK DOESN'T FEATURE
"What do you people deny?"
We deny that immigration has anything to do with overpopulation WHICH IS WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT
Do you have a problem with that fact?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 12:10 PM

There is a Scotsman in Fotheringay, I am very glad he was in the country last week, just waiting for the gig recordings!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 12:59 PM

Now you accuse me of lying!
The figures do not lie.
ONS give the population density of England as 413 per sq. km.
Why would they lie?
That makes England the third most densely populated, or fourth if you count the island of Taiwan.
No lie.

Jim, I have not discussed "overpopulation" or immigration, just stated that England is about the most densely populated country, and it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 01:13 PM

While we're at it Keith, perhaps we should clear up your "support for the nurses from the very beginning"
What you said was that it was wrong to deport them but it was more wrong that they should leave their own countries in the first place" - ie, they should have stayed where they were.
The vast majority of these people are refugees and economic migrants - many from countries left in economic and political turmoil when the British Empire collapsed.
People travel all over the world to get a better life for themselves - a fact of basic humanity
It is calculated that 4.6 million Britons live and work abroad.
33,733 Britons live in Hong Kong - one of the most overcrowded places on the planet
If it is "wrong" for immigrants to leave home and come to "overcrowded" Britain, it is just as "wrong" that Britons should work abroad.
According to your Daily Telegraph today, Britons are leaving home to live abroad at the rate of 400 per day.
MIGRATION FROM BRITAIN
"Wrong" or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 01:16 PM

"just stated that England is about the most densely populated country, and it is"
Parts of England, Government plicy, nothing to do with immigration - you have tried to make it such on a thread about deporting foreign nurses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 01:34 PM

•        I have gone by the World Bank figures that I linked to above rather than using what newspapers laughingly call statistics. I think that an independent body is less likely to present distorted figures
•        I have cut and paste the entire 212 'states' that they have identified into an Excel document.
•        I have then arranged them according to density of population
•        Rather than producing the entire 200+ figures I have only reproduced the figures up to where we get to United Kingdom at no. 42
•        Assuming that ONS give the population density of England as 413 per sq. km is accurate, that would place England in 22nd place – Just below India'
•         The figures:-
Macao SAR, China
18,001        18,270        18,622        18,942        
Monaco
18,423        18,631        18,790        18,916        
Singapore
7,252        7,405        7,589        7,713        
Hong Kong SAR, China
6,690        6,735        6,814        6,845        
Bahrain
1,647        1,701        1,734        1,753        
Malta
1,295        1,301        1,311        1,323        
Bermuda
1,302        1,291        1,296        1,300        
Bangladesh
1,161        1,174        1,188        1,203        
Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
1,113        1,132        1,150        1,167        
Maldives
1,086        1,107        1,128        1,150        
West Bank and Gaza
633        652        672        693        
Barbados
652        655        659        662        
Mauritius
616        617        619        620        
St. Martin (French part)
556        563        569        575        
Aruba
564        566        569        572        
San Marino
514        517        521        524        
Korea, Rep.
508        512        514        516        
Netherlands
493        495        497        498        
Rwanda
439        452        464        477        
Lebanon
424        428        433        437        
India
405        411        416        421        
Puerto Rico
420        416        412        408        
Burundi
360        372        384        396        
Comoros
367        376        386        395        
Haiti
359        364        369        374        
Israel
352        359        366        372        
Belgium
361        365        368        369        
Japan
351        351        350        349        
Curacao
335        340        343        346        
Philippines
313        319        324        330        
Tuvalu
328        328        329        329        
Sri Lanka
329        333        324        327        
Grenada
308        309        310        311        
El Salvador
300        302        304        306        
Guam
295        298        302        306        
St. Lucia
291        294        297        299        
Virgin Islands (U.S.)
304        302        301        299        
Marshall Islands
291        292        292        292        
Vietnam
280        283        286        289        

St. Vincent and the Grenadines
280        280        280        280        
American Samoa
278        276        276        276        
United Kingdom
259        261        263        265        
•        Perhaps we can draw a line under this now.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 01:44 PM

Jim and Dave's far-left site, and presumably the Telegraph, excluded " islands, city states, and dependencies"

In any fair comparison, England is 3rd, or fourth if you include the island of Taiwan.

Does that make both sources liars?
You may not like the Telegraph's right wing editorial position, but it is a respected source.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 02:08 PM

What this whole debate proves to me at least is by pick and mix of facts and figures it is possible to prove just about anything.
Pick your own rules and discount the things that do not fit the picture you wish to paint.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 02:19 PM

Nice try Vic, but I don't think that little things like facts are going to stop what's happening here.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 02:46 PM

by pick and mix of facts and figures it is possible to prove just about anything.

Spot on.

Apparently around half the population of Hertford has a lower than average IQ.

That could explain a lot :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 02:53 PM

Dave                  ;-)          !!

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 02:55 PM

That's an insult to Hertfordshire! I'll have you know that around half the population has a higher than average I.Q. Get your facts right.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 03:15 PM

"Jim and Dave's far-left site, and presumably the Telegraph, excluded " islands, city states, and dependencies" "
What "far left site would that be?
My information comes from:
Internet World Stats, Wiki...... and other neutral bodies.
If you can find a politically motivated quote from a politically motivated site - feel free to point it out.
I avoid quoting from "far left sites (or Arab sites) because I know damn well that you would use it as a diversion - as you are now.
"In any "fair comparison", England is 3rd, or fourth if you include the island of Taiwan."
"fair comparison" means one that backs up your claim - I presume?
Your Daily Telegraph quote falls neatly int two parts - one that England is overpopulated, the other that this is caused by immigration (the headline)
The linked report in the article does not mention emigration - that is all the management's own handiwork.
All of the charts I have been able to find include England in with the United Kingdom - every single on, left, right and centre.
May not suit Little Britons, but there you go - I (and the man from the ministry) say there is plenty of room to cope with immigrants in Britain and they tend to be a benefit when they come.
You now have the 'leftie' World Bank figures which, without counting, places the U.K. 52nd in the world league.
Overpopulation in England is centred around the 'employment belt' and has nothing to do with immigrants, who have become scapegoats for politicians who are able to or care about doing something about it
Try responding to facts rather than hiding behind accusations of 'leftie' - might work wonders for your case.
I ask again, are all those 4.6 million Britons living abroad "wrong" as you clai the nurses are for coming to Britain in the first place - the world really does need to know so it can mend its ways!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 03:22 PM

Kampervan,

That's a very rash claim, surely it would depend on how far above or low the average intelligence a given number of people were.

Cheers

Raggytash

Mean, mode, median !!

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Overcrowded Glastonbury
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 04:43 PM

Density? The most dense in England appears to be Keith.

Centre right? That denotes mainstream.   I wouldn't call Keith, Farage or Griffin mainstream myself like.

By the way prat. If someone gives an opinion, they cannot by definition be liars. If you must bandy insults all day, at least try to avoid howlers that make anybody sympathetic to your views squirm.

Not that I can see any on Mudcat.

Not ones whose opinions are useful anyway eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 05:41 PM

Careful Raggy, you're in danger of introducing a fact-based argument into this.

I didn't mean what I said, I was just contradicting someone else.

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 06:08 PM

You could not have wished for a better nurse (from Bulgaria) that my wife had in The Wellington after her knee replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 06:17 PM

You could not have wished for a better nurse (from Ghana) that my wife had in The Wellington after her hip replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 06:18 PM

Well - not the Wellington.....

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 07:18 PM

Not a bad pub, the Wellington. I occasionally have the odd pint or two there myself.



I'll get me coat, shall I............................

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST, I wake early under cavass
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 02:51 AM

The Wellington? The beer makes for decent anaesthesia.

The last time I was admitted, I was bed blocking all the way till last orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:32 AM

This is more like it :-)

Do nurses in wellingtons have better deportment?

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:49 AM

I always thought that hospitals were divided into wards not deportments.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 05:15 AM

I too am grateful to the nurses of every origin for the wonderful care they give.
I am seeing a lot of it just now.

Re population, if you make a meaningful comparison of similar states, England is about the most populated.
As I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 05:20 AM

I am very grateful to all those who contribute light-hearted comments true to the spirit in which this thread was started.

I'm not seeing enough of them at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 05:26 AM

Indeed, Kampervan. Let us ignore those trying to derail it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 05:35 AM

The Wellington Hospital!

Subject: RE: BS: Paying nurses with poor deportment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 05:37 AM

De-rail? Surely the pubco's are not trying to take over the railways. The costs of tickets will go up, you mark my words and stations will close because landlords won't be able to make a profit. It'll all end in tears. They'll have to go into nursing, if they can walk straight.