BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:52 PM

Thank you for that Skarpi - - fascinating to get a view from Iceland
Have been listening to the mealy-mouthed meanderings of our Taoiseach (Prime Minister) - his and all the major parties with the exception of Sinn Fein, are quite happy to see austerity caused by the greed of the bankers, passed on to the poorest in the country.
I couldn't agree more with your last sentence.... there but for the grace of god.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: skarpi
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 12:03 PM

There will come the time that more Country´s will be in the same place as Greece today , UK should be careful , USA as well ...
having been trough all this here in Iceland is hell for many people ,
but remember who decide to take his money and invest it in some thing in an other country , do it on his/ her own risk and the people should not be paying for it .

and making fun of the crises in Greece is low , what ever the reasons are .

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 10:29 AM

I WILL GLADYLY PAY YOU

ON. TUESDAY

FOR 88 BILLION HAMBURGERS

TODAY


Sincerely,
J. Wellington Wimpy

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:35 AM

"it won't help Greece to become an effective economy unless there is more effective tax collection"
Agreed
Interesting summing up of the situation here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:17 AM

True, musket, but even if enough austerity was imposed to repay all the debts, it won't help Greece to become an effective economy unless there is more effective tax collection. There is a political choice on how to close the gap which is the exact mixture of improvements to collection and austerity. What is being requested seems entirely focused on the austerity. And there is little doubt in my mind that since the current Mantra of economic is lower taxes, flat rates, small government, there is little appetite amongst the lenders for the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:27 AM

More borrowing certainly isn't going to solve Greece's problems - never argued that it would.
Unless the government takes steps to end corruption and force the wealthiest to pay their share, things will remain the same, that is the case in Greece, Britain, Ireland.... wherever.
The situation is little different throughout the rest of Europe, you only have to look at the rapidly growing gap between rich and poor in the U.K. (fortified by the latest budget) and the ongoing theatrical 'show-trials' for corruption in Ireland
Greece paying her debt will do nothing for the people of Greece; the money will go to the wealthiest nations in Europe and the present Europe/world-wide crisis will spread further than it already has
Nor will her refusing to pay the debt while allowing things to remain the same - Catch 22 writ large indeed
At least, with Greece, at last they have a government who might get around to ringing the changes - here, things go on as they always have - would that we had governments here that show the same integrity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Musket bemused
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:02 AM

It has to be said.. Whilst Greece has never been good at collecting taxes whilst rather good at spending them, the media estimates of percentage collected etc conflict with IMF estimates, so merely becoming more efficient isn't going to cure the problem.

They are in danger of reaching the stage that Jim seems incapable of understanding. The point where pensioners and public sector workers can scream about having earned their money all they like, but if the government has run out of cash, the money isn't going to arrive.

The EU are not innocent in this. However, those bleating about how they perceive the Greeks are being treated unfairly would be the first to kick off if The EU has said "you can't join us because you are irresponsible and corrupt."

Catch 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 12:47 AM

One other thought to ponder. I hear from a lot of people that a key factor in this is that Greek people don't pay taxes. But I've never heard anyone from the EU suggest they could provide consultancy, training and/or systems to improve the tax collecting...

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 12:31 AM

Countries get AAA credit ratings when the market thinks they are low risk, and lower ratings as the risk rises. Few people seem to be asking what these ratings and risks mean. It is quite literally the risk you may not get your money back, for the exact same reason that personal loans may be granted at a higher rate when they are refused at a lower rate.

So the big boys who lent the money did so in the clear knowledge that they did so at the risk of losing it all.

Now countries or personal, the lenders don't like losing it even when they saw the risk, so send the bailiffs into get what they can back, which is essentially what is happening in Greece. (you've got ports? We'll have them!)

So we should spare the sanctimony: Greece was foolish to get itself into the position it is, but let's recognise that the lenders are not on some high moral ground of reclaiming what is rightly theirs, but people who made a fair bet, lost, and are trying to grab what they can to compensate.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: skarpi
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:30 PM

For 150 years to come

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: skarpi
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:28 PM

Well.Greece can go the Icelandic way .been there done it .and we are still there for nes 150 yeats to come All the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 06:37 AM

And by the way - my pension is not a "privilege" (more Thatcherism)
I paid into it all my half century of working life - no Hooray Henty gave it to me - I earned it, and it didn't come with a condition as where I had to spend it
Jeez - you people are stereotype
Jim Carrolls

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 06:33 AM

US AND THEM, ONE MORE TIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 06:30 AM

"corruption, nepotism and cronyism"
Which certainly also applies to Ireland and (though less obviously most of the time) Britain.
It appears that Greece has a party committed to doing something about it
Since we moved to Ireland in 1998, we have been treated to a series of on-going enquires (costing the taxpayer many million) into financial corruption in high places, virtually all ending in no substantial action being taken - will be interesting to see how the present NAMA enquiry ends up.
This morning's paper reports that a number of TDs who were awarded a large pay rise have refused to pay it back.
Corruption is endemic and living in Britain and Ireland - and no doubt, elsewhere in Europe (didn't I read something about one of the Spanish royals with her hand in the till) - no difference here
"It isn't politics. It isn't Jim Carroll's stupid remarks about "us & them" right wing claptrap"
Aren't you the one who raised the question of the "scrounger's philosophy" and the pensions we paid into all our working lives being a gift from our betters - and German's halved and 60 years to pay war debt is yet another point to add to the list of those you are choosing to ignore.
All very convincing, I'm sure!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 05:15 AM

It took The UK over fifty years to repay the Marshall plan.

It would be easy to say The USA shouldn't have wanted paying for helping defeat fascism in Europe and that it was in their interest to do so. But you know what? The British government made an undertaking to pay it back.

Which is why we are solvent year to year despite suffering the same banking collapses as everyone else and a large long term deficit and Greece isn't.

The hold ups at the moment as I type are that the Euro ministers simply cannot trust Greece to either be in a position to pay it back or, as seen from the referendum, be willing to ever pay it back.

It isn't politics. It isn't Jim Carroll's stupid remarks about "us & them" right wing claptrap. (Especially as the French finance minister is about as left wing as you can get in the real world) and it certainly isn't about entertaining the naive shit Mr Carroll comes out with.

Yes, you did work hard for your pension. But like the Greeks are finding out, there isn't some huge mountain of money waiting for you to slowly take it out. State pension and many other pensions are down to government physically being able to pay them.

The privilege you have is drawing a UK state pension which you spend in another country. The EU means you can regardless of decisions national governments may wish to make. The EU works for you. Rather successfully looking at your claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:57 AM

It also took Germany 90 years to pay of its WWI debts.......

With Greece we are dealing with a country which operates on the basis of corruption, nepotism and cronyism and which, by all accounts, lacks the administrative systems prevalent in 'northern' europe. Greece was, for centuries, part of the Ottoman Empire and is consequently in many respects more of a middle-eastern than a european state. We 'north' europeans tend to regard Greece through the eyes of the Romantic Movement (Goethe, Byron et al) and only know are we beginning to realise that this view is an illusion. Reform implies reformable systems. and if such are not available...........?

Reintroducing the drachma may not necessarily be a good idea. There would be a massive devaluation which, whilst making greek exports cheaper, will make imported goods, in many cases basics, prohibitively expensive. In any case, what has Greece got to export? Olives and olive oil? They are not going to rescue the country and in any case with Italy, Spain and Portugal there's plenty of competition in that sector.

Two economists, three opinions...............

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 08:47 PM

Neither a borrower nor a lender be!!!
Interesting letter in the Irish Times today:

"Sir, - Will Greece survive until August 8th? If so, it will be 62 years since the 1953 London Agreement. Creditor nations cut German debt in half, extended the other half to 30 years, and limited repayments to 3 per cent of GDP. Germany's "economic miracle" followed. The last German repayment was in 2012.
Ten of the creditor nations, many plundered by Germany in the Second World War, are now in the EU.
One of these was Greece. Have Frau Merkel and Herr Schauble forgotten? The Greeks haven't. - Yours, etc,
MICK SHERIDAN
Bray,
Co Wicklow."

Don't really expect a response from those among us who believe in "a scroungers philosophy" and think our pensions are a favour bestowed to us by some kind benefactor on high!
It seems the Mad Baroness T. bit a lot of people before her mates finally drove a stake through her heart!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 01:15 PM

"The UK as well as the eurozone will be less than a year from currency meltdown"
Every reason why the situation in Greece needs to be resolved satisfactorily for the Greek people.
If these twots are allowed to get away with crushing Greece, we may as well abandoion Parliamentary democracy.
Greece, Portugal, Ireland... have to be given time to sort out the mess caused by the world bankers otherwise there is no point in propping up the European Union - that's what it amounts to.
As far as I can see, this is just another example of world capitalism in crisis
This isn't confined to Europe - as someone above pointed out, Puerto Rica is in a similar situation, Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries have been living a breadline existence for decades and have relied on repressive governments to keep the people in line.
The clock seems to be slowing down and no amount of overwinding is going to reverse the process.
The poorer people have always been the scapegoats while the wealthy get wealthier and wealthier.
FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH
ACCELERATION
FIGURES
THE FUTURE
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:50 PM

Just to put my tuppence in here..

Whatever the rights, wrongs whatever.. It is a fact that there is no such thing as domestic policy. If Greece are allowed to get away with not paying their bills, The UK as well as the eurozone will be less than a year from currency meltdown. We can afford pensions by use of our credit rating, interest on the money we bailed Ireland out with and got back with a cracking interest rate and market confidence in our ability to eventually balance our own books.

The post above was factually quite accurate. A member of a currency must work with the other members equally and that has absolutely nothing to do with politics. Also, The EU is one of three creditors and even then, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy and most of the newer eastern members would block any attempt to write off the debt.

By advocating the idea of not paying it back, Jim is doing for the short term Greek fix what he accuses our government of doing for the bankers.

Sorry Jim. Stick to pre 1954 folk music. Your credibility is higher there mate and you seem to understand the subject more. You are one of the good guys, but even then, I can't let bollocks go unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:44 PM

"A privilege granted courtesy of those you deride."]
Why should something we have payed into all our working lives be a privilege
What planet do you inhabit?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 09:51 AM

"This is debt, not political philosophy. "
Matter of opinion
As far as I can see, whatever it started out to be, it is now a matter of forcing a government to adopt a political line - that was mooted as being the reason for its being set up from the beginning.
"The money must be returned so you can carry on drawing your pension from The UK government whilst in Ireland."
Nonsense - any threat to our pensions comes from domestic policy, not the Greek, Portuguese... or any external debt.
If the E.U. cannot support the members states in times of hardship (caused by bankers and politicians worldwide, it can only be a force for imposing political philosophies on those States.
The E.U. does not only involve itself in financial matters (it is not a bank) - it is an organisation which adopts stances and pronounces opinions on all matters (including how the workers in those states are treated - which Britain is now trying to manipulate)
The financial problems today are worldwide and have been generated by politicians nad financeers misnbehaving themselves - it is no way the fault of those suffering the worst for that misbehaviour.
What youy are apparently doing is setting the interests of the Irish, British, German... people. one against the other and letting those really to blame (a fact that you have not even bothered to deny) off the hook - do you believe that constitutes "European Union"?.
Greece is part of the Europesn Community - not the ****** currency - it is the people of theose member states that matter, not their monetary unit.
"It isn't the "bankers" they are shafting"
They are not "shafting" anybody, they are attempting to live up to election pledges to protect the Greek people from more austerity - if there were a few more governments like that, we would not be in the mess wew are in.
"What part of that don't you like? "
I don't like the idea that a referendum can be described as "a dishonest betrayal" - that, more than anything, tells me that this is wah this about - obviously doesn't bother you - why should it - Cameron is happily making your lot a happier one by ascertaining that Britain doesn't even have to abide by the poor-enough conditions set out for workers by the E.U.
You blew your cover when you described Britain's workers as having a "scrounger's philosophy" - one of Thatcher's children.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 09:10 AM

This is debt, not political philosophy.

The money must be returned so you can carry on drawing your pension from The UK government whilst in Ireland.

A privilege granted courtesy of those you deride.

If Greece doesn't pay its debts, why should my neighbour pay his mortgage? Why don't a family with fuck all money just rob a bank!

You obviously don't understand where the infrastructure of the western world comes from, do you? Think it through. Be fucked to raiding UK standards of living in order to subsidise a country that doesn't bother to collect taxes, pays pensions it can't afford then tries to look like a victim.

They are part of The Euro. They have the same responsibility for fiscal prudence as the other member states with that currency. That by the way includes The UK. Over 70% of UK income passes through Euro currency.

It isn't the "bankers" they are shafting. It's the old couple across the road who scrimped and saved all their lives. It's the kids in schools, the hospitals...

They can't afford to pay it back but the euro zone countries are willing to pour money in to prevent collapse. What part of that don't you like? Which bits don't you understand? Any package is humanitarian at this stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 08:20 AM

"Not sure what your comments about Cameron are anything to do with this. "
Of course they are - a member state is attempting to over-ride the rules of the organisation in order to suit its own partcular right-wing ideology.
If Britain is allowed to do it, why can't the Greeks re-negotiate a debt taken out by previous Governments in order to help it out of a crisis brought about by right wing greed, dishonesty and incompetence?
This crisis is one created by "the unacceptable face of capitalism" and needs to be recognised as such in order to prevent it from continuing to happen .
"The democratically elected government of Greece are accepting the measures required to keep the country from imploding. "
The Democratically elected Government of Greece are being forced to work their way around the democratically taken decision of the Greek people because the E.U. - who have described that democratically arrived at decision as a "dishonest betrayal", because they are being blackmailed by the E.U.
They have not apologised and they certainly are not "wrong"   
Repaying the loan (the moneylenders) will only benefit the better off countries (€9 billion of the last loan was used to repay previous loans and did nothing for the Greek people)
If Tsipras if forced to introduce further austerity measures it will mean that the E.U. is electing Greece's Government and not the people - a step away from the colonels.
The present situation was reached by a combination of the right and only some of the ruling ministers - political and economic chaos which can only benefit the Merkin Mob and the Greek right wing - certainly not the Greek people
It seems the Rabid Right might be making headway in Europe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 06:52 AM

Not sure what your comments about Cameron are anything to do with this.

The democratically elected government of Greece are accepting the measures required to keep the country from imploding.

Know more than the home of democracy do you Jim?

Cameron is renegotiating European treaty terms. He won an election promising to do so.

Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant. In a democracy, you don't get the world to spin round you. Especially if you have so many opinions on a country but can't be bothered to live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:43 AM

Interesting item in the Times this morning
David Cameron has been secretly negotiation with the E.U. to exempt Britain from from Europe's laws on workers rights
Avoiding further "scroungers philosophy" no doubt!!
Will you ***** Tories never wise up to yourselves?
Bollocks over Greece having admitted they were wrong and backing down
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 02:33 AM

The Greek government has voted overwhelmingly to the cuts required to prevent meltdown and the PM has admitted to mistakes in a referendum he can't deliver on.

All of which could have been avoided.

The bailout? Of course they won't pay it back. But by agreeing to do it, the "nasty EU" are being far more humanitarian than the ignorance displayed on this thread give them credit for.

Scrounger philosophy. We see a lot of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:15 PM

I have a brilliant solution! Greece has 227 inhabited islands. Just sell two or three of 'em to Germany!

The islands' inhabitants probably wouldn't mind. At this point, they're probably tired of being Greek anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:46 AM

"After all the disgraceful leading their people down a blind alley with the referendum on something they can't deliver,"
Let's see, shall we?
Even Europe have admitted that if they pay the debt they are shafted.
As Lynn says, the stance taken by the g'd ol' E.U. has more to do with European politics and the political tinge of the Greek Government than it has to do with money.

One more time, just in case one of you clowns...!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 02:57 AM

After all the disgraceful leading their people down a blind alley with the referendum on something they can't deliver, the Greek government look like accepting the measures required to prevent meltdown.

Let's see how he sells that to those he asked if they wanted austerity or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:01 PM

Various EU politicians are, by all accounts, shitting themselves at the prospect of Syriza style left-wing politics taking over in places like Spain and Portugal where general elections are approaching. The neocon ideology of austerity which they all consider to be 'unavoidable' may be beginning to crumble- and not before time either.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 09:11 AM

Missed her name - she was on the 6pm RTE news
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:47 AM

which politician was that?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:05 AM

"I suppose that means the two nations that have seen their wages in real terms decline gradually over the same long period"
Sure, the German and French workers are suffering because of the Bank generated crisis, but that doesn't mean they aren't the wealthiest nations in Europe - haven't you noticed that that in rich countries, the wealth stays at the top and seldom filters down to the poor? One of those 'odd' quirks of capitalism!
Remarkable statement in the European Parliament yesterd by an Irish politician praising the Greeks stance and the 'No' vote.
Not all Irish people are prepared to take their "medicine" without comment, even the politicians - would that there were a few more.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:01 AM

two of Europe's wealthiest nations, Germany and France

I suppose that means the two nations that have seen their wages in real terms decline gradually over the same long period.

You take yer medicine slowly and it works. You take it all at once and the dose is a toxin.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:41 AM

"The Irish government. Not the UK expats doing well out of the strength of their pound when living in a Euro economy. You and Jim should be getting the beers in for your mates with pigs under their arms"
firstly I do not receive a pension of any kind from the UK.
The Pounds strength against the euro means imports from the uk are expensive, the result being extra cost on my shopping bill.
Secondly, For the last 4 years i have been organising a folk festival in my local village, so in an allegorical sense i have been getting the beers in, whoever you are you are showing that you are uniformed unknowing ignorant and rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:32 PM

"Selfish, adj. Devoid of consideration for the selfishness of others." 
― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:11 PM

" You and Jim should be getting the beers in for your mates with pigs under their arms.
"Ignoring the racist stereotyping of the Irish people for the time being" (the right really can't resists showing their true colours, can they), the Irish people, like the Greeks are still reeling from the corrupt bankers and dishonest and incompetents politicians (whatever the latter pair may have under their arms).
The Greeks seem to have a government that is prepared to stand up to European bullying - we are not so lucky and are still paying for a crash brought about by greedy bankers and corruptly compliant politicians.
Still no comment on the morality of repayment of loans going to enrich the already rich and the implications of referendums being "a dishonest betrayal".
Whether the loan is repaid ot not, the situation of the ordinary man and woman in Ireland will remain exactly the same - though the better-off may be able to slip a little more into their offshore accounts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:06 PM

The point is, why should people starve themselves and their families, to keep the corrupt alliance on the road?

The EU is built on the exploitation of Eastern European workers...yes the ones who according to Mr Blair, were "going to make us competitive in the global economy"
Ha fucking Ha!.....now they're being exploited to try to ensure our survival, our own young people too expensive to train and uneconomic to employ!!

Why should people support the EU and sacrifice their kids future through fear or blackmail.
We don't need another warmongering super power built on corruption and exploitation.

Get out and go it alone Greece and I hope by the time Scotland achieves independence the EU will be no more, or our politicians developed a enough backbone to trust our own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:55 PM

It all may come down to "who drops the soap first" in the EU communal shower.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:43 PM

The Irish government. Not the UK expats doing well out of the strength of their pound when living in a Euro economy. You and Jim should be getting the beers in for your mates with pigs under their arms.

Ireland has stated it cannot support a "hair cut" of the EU debt. Try walking out of your house and picking up a newspaper or even easier, Irish Times website. It's no harder than Mudcat except it crashes less.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:35 PM

"Out of interest Mr Carroll, I think you will find it is Portugal, Ireland and the new smaller nations that are shouting loudest that Greece cannot get away with it, as they had to comply."
provide facts and stats plase , that is not my experience of irish public opinion, i live in ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 01:26 PM

The easiest and most oft made mistake is to make is any parallel between personal finances and international state finance.

Still the banks suck big time, especially when they act like an army.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:59 AM

"Still, you pay your debts and have a bit of austerity or don't pay your debts and have lots of austerity."
Er no - you pay your debts and have austerity - full stop.
Even the E.U. has admitted that paying the debt is in no way going to help Greece back of its feet following a crisis caused by greedy international banks and dishonest and incompetent politicians
Still no reference to the poor nations paying for the rich and the dismissal of democracy as "dishonest" and "a betrayal" - just "pay the moneylender".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:57 AM

Still, you pay your debts and have a bit of austerity or don't pay your debts and have lots of austerity.

The Marshall plan kept The UK a poor country throughout the fifties, sixties and seventies. But we paid our debt.

There is no such thing as government in this. The governments decide how to use the money they have. See Osborn's budget today for details. If we had Greece's attitude, he could be popular and not look for savings.

But we'd be as bad as them within months.

Let them off? I hope you have money under your mattress too, because our systems will collapse soon after.

If you don't understand where your pension and benefits come from, try not looking an idiot eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:09 AM

"Portugal, Ireland and the new smaller nations that are shouting loudest that Greece cannot get away with it"
It is the POLITICIANS of those countries who are shouting the loudest, the same people who helped plunge us into a crisis and then imposed stringent austerity measurements on the poorest to dig the countries out of the messes they created (while allowing the actual culprits to award themselves massive bonuses for all their hard work)
What the hell else are they going to say?
This, I assume , is what the Merkin Mob have in mind for Greece.
The Greek people seem to have elected a government which has said, "enough is enough" and are refusing to make the electorate pay for the past crimes of the politicians and the bankers - I wish we were in the position to do the same here; then maybe we wouldn't have to be paying property and water taxes and selling off our state airline into private hands.
If being a member of a club becomes a liability to an entire people, then the rules need to be changed or the partnership must be dissolved.
You do not remain in a marriage if one of the partners says, fine, as long as you are able to pull your weight, but you're on your own if you fall sick.
The E.U, stands to become an exclusive club in which the wealthier nations are supported by the poorest.
None of the supporters of Merkin's Mafia have had the bottle to respond to the actual situation as outlined in the article linked here 30 Jun 15 - 11:11 AM and the morality of taking out loans to repay loans rather than lift the country out of an economic mess got into by the borrowers - all in order to finance the well-being of two of Europe's wealthiest nations, Germany and France.
Nor have they responded to the implications of an organisation whose leaders have described a national referendum as "dishonest" and "a betrayal"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:15 AM

When grease melts, you know it is going to run and run. And it is proving to be the case here.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: brashley46
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:27 PM

Bankers' Europe is a con job. If the other "debtor" states are yelling at the Greeks, it is because they had the backbone to say NO to the ECB in the same way they said NO to the Wehrmacht, instead of capitulating.

Back in 1953 the Greek government, along with most of the Western European governments and the US, agreed in the London Accords to forgive half of Germany's debt for the War. When is Merkel's German government going to remember this? Never, of course.

Greek schoolkids, firefighters, teachers, and pensioners did not "evade taxes" enough to force the Greek economy into bankruptcy. Go after the banksters and the shipping barons for the money they owe, first. Under the Troika's austerity plan, the Greek people will be able to pay off their "debt" sometime after the Haitians are.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 04:58 PM

GUEST, the right-wing politicians who were elected as a supposed alternative to our last disastrous government, and who transpired to be even more awful, who are shouting. On the streets, people are not shouting, except against the government.

Meanwhile, from Greece: It is quite depressing to realise there are so many people out there who think there is a mattress somewhere in Greece stuffed with a trillion euros, which we are refusing to hand over simply out of radical leftism.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 01:00 PM

Out of interest Mr Carroll, I think you will find it is Portugal, Ireland and the new smaller nations that are shouting loudest that Greece cannot get away with it, as they had to comply. Why should Greece be special?

You cannot say that because Greece voted not to pay it back, that it isn't owed. The other EU ministers are right, it isn't in the Athens government gift to dictate to its creditors. Any mandate includes elected Greek government's asking for handouts with promises all along.

Still, living in a Euro zone country with a UK pension.. You must be rolling in it right now! 1.42, the last time I looked.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 11:36 AM

A little calming music about baling hay from the Sawdoctors.

Syriza was the first government to start seriously tackling the tax revenues. Europe doesn't like it because Syriza wants to tax the rich, rather than screwing the poor as has been done in Ireland and other compliant subject nations.