BS: Edward Heath -what's point?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 07:30 PM

As is your inability to accept even the mildest criticism. Hence your rather vulgar riposte.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 04:26 PM

your attention to trivialities is legendary, fucck off

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 02:51 PM

Dick your inattention to detail is noted

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 01:26 PM

those ones have not, but allegedly he accosted others elsewhere.
yes they were elected representatives elected to put forward and represent their unions political point of view to put forward the politicalpoint of view of their union ,in my opinion makes them political representatives.
Raggytash, your pedantic attempts at hair splitting are tedious.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 01:14 PM

if he chained victims up and chucked them in the sea, how come they've survived to come forward...?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 12:15 PM

I should have remembered that Jim I borrowed the LP from a pal....it was on the wee record stall in the Barras...think it was Jim Craig fae the Islanders that ran it wi' Ian Grant.

Happy days eh?....we wir aw socialists then :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 11:12 AM

Akenaton, it's on the UCS NEV 007LP sung by Alastair McDonald. The LP was used by the Upper Clyde Sipyard workers as a Fund raiser in 1972.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 07:13 AM

Does statements by victims being made public also jeopardise Inquiries ?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 05:38 AM

I don't know if Heath is guilty or not although there is the natural temptation, no matter how unfair,to believe that there is "no smoke without fire".

Of course, I believe such matters should be investigated. However if he were alive today very little of this gossip and media speculation would have been permitted. Nor would statements by victims be made public for fear of jeopardising possible future trials.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 04:57 AM

Aye, your gaunae be in big touble noo Jimmy mah boay!!

I think you'd better get your coat old chap......;0)


Funny ah've nivver herd that wan, Jim, is it recorded?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 04:46 AM

Title: COWES CAPERS
Melody MESSING ABOUT ON THE RIVER
Lyrics: Jim McLean

The lyrics are dated and were specifically written in 1972 to celebrate the Upper Clyde Shipbuilders work in.

It's great whit ye hear,
When drinkin yer beer,
O' things that go on in the Channel.
Ted Heath has been seen,
(Ye know whit Ah mean)
Just messin' aboot in the Channel.
When sailin' yer boatie aroon aboot Cowes,
They say that it's no' safe tae lean ower the bowes.
Just zip up yer mac,
An' don't turn yer back'
When messin' aboot in the Channel.

They don't talk aloud,
Aboot Morning Cloud,
Or messin' aboot in the Channel.
When they come ashore,
They're a' lookin sore,
Frae messin' aboot in the Channel.
When asked aboot Clydeside
Dae ye know whit Heath says,
"I'd bend over backwards to help UCS"
But we're no' sae daft,
Let's build a wee raft,
And shove him back intae the Channel!

I've heard it's been said,
There's trouble for Ted,
If ever he steers oot the Channel.
If he tries the Clyde,
We'll boot his backside,
And make Edward sign on the Panel.
Noo Nero was fiddlin when Rome was on fire,
But Edward's been fiddlin' wi' rowlocks an' wires.
Let's finish his tricks,
Wi' twa well placed kicks,
An' stop a' his fun up the Channel!

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 03:49 AM

True, but they were NOT elected politicians as you initially suggested.

You and I are old enough to be able to recall them and make the distinction others on here are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 03:43 AM

They were elected representatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 03:05 AM

GSS just pointing out that Gormley and Buckton were not elected POLITICIANS as you initially suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,unnamed for a reason
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 07:17 PM

Look at it this way: The first rape was by Cosby (or Heath). The second is by the media, where they can choose to participate or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Manuel
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 06:46 PM

Guest, unnamed for a reason, I respect your view. However, have you stopped to think that that all these women making allegations against Cosby today must have tried, for many years in each case, to let it go and lives their lives as you are now advising them to do? Do you think any of them are glad, seeing now how the passage of time has weakened their positions, to have remained silent all these years?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 02:41 PM

proud to be weird!

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 01:39 PM

And a disgraced (for a different reason) member of the coalition government gave a Whitehall job to a member of the security services of a foreign power.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 01:22 PM

Gormley and Buckton, were elected to represent members of a union they were not elected to betray union discussions to a government during a strike.
Musket,is that the best answer you can give, children were abused, A Conservative back bench, mp presents important files to Leon Brittain, THE HOME SECRETARY and he loses them.
Jesus would do more than weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 10:33 AM

Jesus fucking wept

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 08:47 AM

Joe Gormley and Ray Buckton were not elected politicians but elected union representatives. It may have been that support from the USSR could have enhanced their bargaining position.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 08:28 AM

"and our law makers and entertainers seem to contain a very high percentage of weird, people."
correct, and some that have either willingly or unwillingly, turned to inform for the secret service of one country or another, two examples are union leaders, joe gormley and ray buckton, who informed to mi5 on union meetings during the 1973 miners strike, the miners strike that defeated the HEATH GOVERNMENT, this is not a fantasy of mine,but facts that came out under the 50 year rule, official secrets act.
check it ,it is not fantasy or allegations but the documented truth.
we elect politicians to represent us their constituents, we do not elect them to intefere with children,break the law or abuse their power.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 05:55 AM

No Al I've spent my life opposing the political norm, but some things are really bad for society, and our law makers and entertainers seem to contain a very high percentage of weird, people.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 05:13 AM

character assasination? you are ridiculous
I am stating that these are a lot of allegations and that they need to be investigated not covered up, mean while Musket, can you explain how leon brittain managed to lose files on paedophiles that were presented to him by geoffrey dickens, a conservative mp.
we need no more of that kind of thing.
allegations against greville janner a labour mp, need to be investigated, excuses about supposed alzheimers whilst he frequently attended the house of lords are not good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 05:12 AM

what are you proposing Ake - a nation of Shreddies knitters and Homepride flour graders - a place where no one sticks their head above the parapet and challenges the norm?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 04:45 AM

Politics and the media are brim full of sexual weirdos, corrupt lobbyists, and generally bad eggs.....the lists are endless.

Why do they retain such power over public morals? Why do we listen to them at all?

Do the jobs attract people with personality disorders?
Are they all just performers?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 02:54 AM

Gossip was rife within the Tory party...

Yeah, those opposed to his Europe stance, and there were many, used the fact he never married and had interests outside politics to start rumour and innuendo. That, Dick, has credible evidence surrounding it


Perhaps whatever weird website you are cutting and pasting your gossip from, you and the other fishwives might factor that into your character assassination?

Like I said, if he was involved in any of this, then like with Saville, victims can at the very least carry on their lives knowing their abuser has gone from revered to reviled.

But I think we are a long long way from that stage, assuming we ever get there.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 02:16 AM

I believe the allegations should be investigated, I would be surprised if all the allegations were lies, there are a lot of them, but if that turns out to be the case, so be it.
In the meantime there were files on paedophiles that went missing when handed to the then home secretary leon brittain, a man who was allegedly visiting elm tree guest house, where abuse apparantly took place, how convenient.
there appear to have been cover ups, why who is being protected, people of power? or innocent children?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 03:18 PM

Human nature is probably playing havoc with this "investigation." Who is speaking up and who isn't? Why? When nothing can be proven or disproved it is an exercise in finger pointing, and for the tabloids it sells new$paper$ or attracts eyes for online click$.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 03:12 PM

"Unlike other European countries the UK has no statute of limitations applying to serious sexual crimes." Wikipedia

Posts urging that the statutes of limitation have expired according to US state laws are therefore irrelevant and unhelpful, as no allegations from any such territories apply to the case.

Allegations are being investigated by the competent authorities. Other competent authorities will decide whether the results will warrant any further action or statements.

Meanwhile, as Dick says, we shall have to bide our time for the outcome -- which is not to suggest that discussion, on this thread or elsewhere, should IMO be inhibited. It is bound to be a topic of interest to historians, and to all of us who recall the period and the personalities concerned.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 03:05 PM

Astonishing post Dick.

Line 3, quite reasonably asks for allegations to be investigated, and says, quite reasonably that they may either have substance or not.

Line 4, suggests that your own mind is made up even in advance of the investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 02:37 PM

It is also very important to reveal the truth.
"But a lot of it does look pretty gossipy and lacking in substance, hinting rather than saying anything."
they are allegations, they need to be investigated, that does not mean they either have substance or lack it, but there are a lot of allegations.
Does anyone seriously think that all the people making these allegations are liars and fantasists?
McGrath cop on.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 12:07 PM

whatever the truth, the "victims" need psychiatric counseling, any findings will answer their demand as stated, but in my experience won't answer their needs psychologically. It is easy to see an inquiry as the answer. It answers the publics' demands, it will answer any true victims demands, but the needs in this case involve future vigilance, and individual counseling, ongoing and at a cost.

Inquiries are cheap by comparison with any individual help. There are a lot more victims than this case out there being badly served because of lack of money and hence poor diagnosis.

Have your inquiry, and when abuses are still happening and victims suffering, don't come here crying "unforseen consequences".

And don't confuse want with need.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST, unnamed for a reason
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 11:15 AM

Nearly 40 posts debating the crimes of a man dead for 10 years? Really? He may have been guilty, but now that he's dead, anyone piling on to that hot mess is grabbing headlines.

Sex crime cases can be bizarre. Case in point, the recent decision that Bill Cosby testify about something that happened 41 years ago. At least he's alive; I don't know if any of his victims will get a chunk of him, but some of them did in the past (those are the court proceedings that were unsealed that restarted this), and the rest will get the odd sepia-toned light cast on them that comes with yellow journalism leading the way on this kind of story. It will be reported in all of the newspapers, but the more lurid stories will come from the rags. This time round, anyone choosing to step into that media circus is choosing to take on a role that will expose them to a lot of painful questions and bring it all back again. Living that life from now on to collect a possible settlement, why define the rest of their lives on something that happened so long ago and payment is at best iffy? It seems the cost is too great, especially when the statute of limitations on the crime has long since expired (depending on the state in which it happened).

My advice, as someone who was a victim of rape, is to let it go and live their lives free of the unpleasantness that the media will surely visit upon them. Why be a victim twice? My attacker was caught and incarcerated, but even if he was famous today and a story like this was developing, I wouldn't insert myself into it. These women were brave, yes, but they also put themselves on display for a lot of thoughtless people to examine and wonder if 30 or 40 years ago were they "pretty enough to rape." Like looks had something to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 11:15 AM

That's a long post by Good Soldier, though without any indication of where the cut and paste comes from it lacks something,

But a lot of it does look pretty gossipy and lacking in substance, hinting rather than saying anything. "Wiltshire police meanwhile disclosed it has received a number of calls to it's helpline..." Which would be perfectly true even if they were all wrong numbers - which I'm not suggesting they were.

Thhe sensible thing is for us to leave it all on one side till there's actually some hard information.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Manuel
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 10:40 AM

Heath Patterson Price. No, not the name of a hot-shot law firm specialising in international law!

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 07:13 AM

"Five police forces have confirmed they have received allegations of child sex abuse involving the former prime minister Sir Edward Heath.

Police in Jersey, Wiltshire, Hampshire, Kent and London are all investigating allegations involving the former politician.

Late last night, the Hampshire force was the latest to confirm it is looking into allegations made against the former PM.

Earlier, police in Jersey said Sir Edward was being investigated as part of their historical child sex abuse inquiry

Sir Edward was ousted as Tory leader by Margaret Thatcher in 1975

The disclosure followed claims that he would take children from care homes for a ride in his yacht.

Wiltshire Police, meanwhile, disclosed it has received a number of calls to a helpline it set up appealing for potential victims and witnesses.


Kent Police said it had received a report of a sexual assault against Sir Edward in East Kent in the 1960s.

And the Metropolitan Police is looking into accusations by a man, now aged 65. He claims he was raped at the age of 12 by Sir Edward, in Mayfair, London.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "In April 2015 an allegation of rape was made to the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS).

"An officer from Operation Fairbank interviewed the complainant that same month and obtained a full account. Support services were offered.

"However, after a full assessment of the allegation there were no lines of inquiry that could proportionately be pursued by the MPS."

It is also claimed the politician was seen by a Met Police detective going into a north London property where boys were abused in the '70s.

The first allegation against Sir Edward emerged on Monday.

Wiltshire Police disclosed the force was being investigated for failing to handle an apparent allegation made against the politician in the 1990s.

A woman at the centre of the claims has been revealed to be a Filipino prostitute called Myra Ling-Ling Forde - now 67.

According to a retired detective she had been arrested on inciting prostitution charges in the mid 90s but the court case against her was dropped after she threatened to expose Sir Edward as a paedophile.




   

Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, Sir Edward's former principal private secretary, told Sky News the allegations were "absolute nonsense".

But since then further details of claims have emerged including those on Jersey.

In a statement, Jersey Police said: "Sir Edward Heath does feature as part of Operation Whistle, currently investigating historical allegations of abuse in Jersey."

The force says the allegations of abuse involve 13 "people of public prominence".

Many of the claims centre on the Haut de la Garenne children's home, which closed in 1986.

The home was said to have been "frequented" by Jimmy Savile, who has been accused of abusing youngsters there.

US Newsweek reporter Leah Goodman has claimed she was told of allegations against Sir Edward on Jersey in 2011.

But she says she was then thrown out of the UK for investigating them.

She told Sky News: "(Police officers investigating claims at the children's home) had heard the rumours and I know a few of the senior members of the police believed that (Heath) was at it.

"The yachting culture had long been known for bringing boys and other children out on boats into international waters ... murky legalities ... it was a place where it was understood people couldn't escape.
Video: 'There Have Been Rumours'

"I know Edward Heath was involved in the yachting culture on the island."

Sir Edward, PM for four years in the 1970s, is the highest-profile figure to be named in historical abuse allegations against prominent figures.

An independent inquiry has been set up into claims public bodies failed to act or attempted to cover up claims against senior politicians.

The inquiry has been told by David Cameron there are no limits to their investigations and officers should "go as high as they like".

The Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation said: "We welcome the investigation by Wiltshire Police, which we wholeheartedly believe will clear Sir Edward's name and we will co-operate fully with the police in their inquiries."

Sir Edward, who led the Conservative government between 1970 and 1974, never married and kept his private life under wraps.

He died at his home in Salisbury aged 89 in July 2005."
A lot of allegations, would you not agree Mr Red.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM

Edward Heath never gave out those vibes?perhaps not to you.
the allegations should be investigated,PROPERLY. any person responsible for covering up should also be prosecuted if the allegations are true, The rest of your remarks are insults to those people who have been victims of paedophile celebrities politicians etc.
Society should protect children against sexual abuse, allehgations should be investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 05:35 AM

Just as Munchausen's Syndrome is perplexing and people who hoax call the fire brigade get some thrill, there are going to be people who jump on the band wagon. These are allegations, not proof. And given the focus of it, he is not there to defend himself. We cannot ignore these two things.

With Jimmy Savile it was easy to see him as creepy, flaky (I did) and an acquaintance tells a story where as an 11 year old girl her mother was insistent that the BBC made sure she did not meet the man, mother thought the same. But Edward Heath never gave out those vibes.

Now who is next on the target list? Think of a politician, preferably outspoken & maybe single, it would help if he were dead; anyone in the frame for the next shock horror scandal.

And as for overload, the legal system is just catching up with the current moral attitude. Was it ever thus?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 03:33 AM

A quisling for Germany?

I heard he was never brought to book for speeding in the harbour designated area in his yacht. Morning Cloud would breeze through the wall opening at a dizzying 7 knot.

Bastard.




If there is anything to investigate, then due process will out. If there is a problem with due process, take it up with your MP.
zzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 09:21 PM

Greg, it is nothing to do with facebook, you are misinformed. Why not do some researching you might get a nasty shock.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:55 PM

As for an investigation proving innocence, that can't happen. "Not guilty" in fact means the same as "Not proven". There are always those who say "No smoke without fire" - though of course that isn't even true with real smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 05:49 PM

"Seems he will be in the courts soon enough"

There would be certain somewhat unsuperable obstacles to that happening...

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:12 PM

So German Nazi military intelligence kept going after the war and blackmailed Ted Heath into murdering boys in a boat off Jersey, said boys coming from a home. After shagging them, Edward Heath then caused them to be chained up and thrown into the sea. Yes, all seems pretty likely to me. And there's evidence for this. Well, somebody on Facebook said so apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 02:16 PM

"How can enquiries be done much less expensively "
If it's necessary, make the wealthy pay via an increase in the wealth tax - the discrepancy between rich and poor has widened considerably in the last few years
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32824770
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,Manuel
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM

When you are talking about allegations of this nature, against a former Prime Minister, I'm all for a full investigation, even, Al Whittle, if we have to mortgage everything we own to pay for it. Why in the world should anyone be trying to divert public attention to Spycatcher at this critical moment?

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 01:42 PM

Whilst I agree in principle with the necessity of inquires...

The question still remains - in a time of enforced austerity "How can enquiries be done much less expensively ?????"

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 01:17 PM

Advancement through intimate relationship is hardly new, a form of nepotism, and unlikely to go away in any sphere of life.

I agree with Jim.

The general issue is about cover-ups and blackmail in high places being bad governance.

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 12:54 PM

You have to wonder if any of Heath's catamites have been propelled into political careers on the end of his cock. In which case they are probably still active in the Tory Party and might someday need to answer questions about how they got to where they are now. They might not all exactly be "victims".

Subject: RE: BS: Edward Heath -what's point?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 12:17 PM

No, If Heath did sexually interfere with children and if he was an accessory to murder, it is not a midemeanour in comparison to anything. his victims should get closure, the same applies to Greville Janner although he has not been an accessory to murder as far as we know.
Leon Brittain is another,there must be no further cover ups.