BS: E Milliband was unelectable

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 09:09 AM

Steve,
Can you tell us when or where they brag about their hit-rate?
No. Sorry.
They may not have anything to brag about anyway, but I imagine most sites rate themselves by hits.

Jim,
use such material from extremist sources when it suits you.

I never have.
I did not use the one in question.
I just looked for fakery, as I'm sure you and others did.

instructed the rest of us to wade through the whole heap of shit and find anything wrong

He did not even ask anyone to do that.
I was just suspicious, as you were.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 08:01 AM

"Someone posted a list of killings that probably came from that site."
Bobad - did -you, knowing where it came from, defended the posting and instructed the rest of us to wade through the whole heap of shit and find anything wrong - you argumentatively defended the first dozen.
How dare you accuse me of "disguising" an identified link, and how stupid can you get in claiming having been offended when you're happy to use such material from extremist sources when it suits you.
I'l bet you're "sorry you raised the issue" - another fine mess you've got yourself into".
When will you ever learn?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:07 AM

Can you tell us when or where they brag about their hit-rate?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 04:14 AM

Steve, I meant cookies and IP info.
I gather that no-one else thinks there is a risk.
Also they will use hit rate as a measure of support.
I would just prefer to give them a wide birth, but clearly that is just me.

Jim,
it was self identified - stop wriggling,

It was not. There was no way of knowing what you were linking to.

Tou targeted and persistently pursued (claims only of) left entryism into The Labour party and ignored the fact that the Tories were doing it

Not true. I referred to both, and Tories first.
One I was asked for evidence, then more evidence, and one was ignored.

You defended pages and pages of claims from the extremist racist 'Muslim Watch'

That is a lie.
I never defended it or any other site, but I remember the incident.

Someone posted a list of killings that probably came from that site.
Like you I was suspicious of it, although I remembered some of the incidents making the news.

I made a random selection of ones I did not know of and checked them out.
I am sure you did the same.

Neither of us, nor anyone else, was able to find a single false entry.
That was a fact, and stating it is not defending the website.

Once again Jim, you accuse me of all sorts of shit instead of discussing the issues.
You always make it about me.
Please stop.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 03:15 AM

"Easy. Just Google the text to see where it came from."
You pathetically tried to make an issue out of my putting up a BNP statement boasting to have infiltrated the Labour Party - you didn't even have toGoogle4 it - it was self identified - stop wriggling, you're on the hook.
You defended pages and pages of claims from the extremist racist 'Muslim Watch' - lie down, your dead.
Tou targeted and persistently pursued (claims only of) left entryism into The Labour party and ignored the fact that the Tories were doing it - "nobody was interested" does't hack it - if entryism concerned you, the fact that the Tories were doing it openly in a campaign let by the Daily Telegraph should have outraged you - understandably it didn't because it got in the way of your one-man campaign - lie down, your dead.
If it doesn't interest you tha you are uninterested in democracy in Britain - we already knew that.
Nobody but an idiot objects to linking to racist organisations unless it is in support of those organisations - if you chosse to ignore what those organisations are saying you have no way of knowing what they are saying.
You are still trying to use this lame excuse to defend your blunder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 12:55 AM

Controversial ? How so ?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:54 PM

So what "info" could they "harvest" from me that they couldn't harvest from reading Mudcat or TheSession or half a dozen other sites I visit? Or the electoral register? Give over, Keith. You may go around watching your back all the time but I'd rather enjoy life. And I'm controversial and have been for yonks. And I only ever use my real name. So far, so good!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:34 PM

Jim,
You were caught out targeting the left for allegedly "entryism" into the Labour Party and when it was pointed out to you that the Conservatives were being organised to do just that, you panicked

I was the first person to report that Tories were voting for Corbyn, long before entryism by the far left was referred to.

That makes nonsense of your silly accusation.

you were stupid to just target the left

I targeted neither.
No-one was interested in one and it finished.
It was other people who kept the other going.

None of this is an issue for me.
I just find it interesting

On numerous occasions you have put up unattributed quotes, and I, among many others, have traced them

Easy. Just Google the text to see where it came from.
There was no way of knowing where your disguised link would lead.

Guest Derrick, it seems it is just me who objects to being linked to racist organisations.
Sorry I raised the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:41 PM

No-one said you should be ashamed of anything Derrick.
Why that comment?
In response to your question "Derrick, are you happy to click on the BNP website?
I took that to be a criticism of my action implying looking at a BNP
was questionable behaviour.
Clicking on the link whether or not the destination is given is the only way to see what the site says.
If you have not seen it you are not qualified to comment, believing it must be bad just because the BNP authored the site is presumptuous.
I simply cannot see why you are so annoyed you were not prewarned.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:21 PM

"I never disguise my links."
Nobody has ever attempted to disguise links Keith and you are wriggling like a worm to suggest anybody ever has.
On numerous occasions you have put up unattributed quotes, and I, among many others, have traced them and pointed out where they came from.
Your stupid explanation of your objecting to my putting up a quote from the B.N.P is now getting beyond a joke.
Are you totally incapable of accepting that you made a blunder in doing so?
You were caught out targeting the left for allegedly "entryism" into the Labour Party and when it was pointed out to you that the Conservatives were being organised to do just that, you panicked.
If you knew they were, you were stupid to just target the left - it shows your right wing bias.
Personally, I think you were caught on the wrong foot and grabbed the first thing you thought of.
You say that infiltration into another party is of no interest to you, which, as far as I am concerned, is an indication of your contempt for democracy in Britain - everybody should be interested when the electoral process is being interfered with.
I suggest you stop this nowe, before you dig yourself any deeper into the mess than you already have
If you reall were concerned about linking extremist threads, you would not have supported Bobad's huge Muslim Watch links the way you did
When in a hole - stop digging
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:07 PM

Why link to a BNP site?

The ancient Chinese warrior Sun Tzu taught his men to "know your enemy" before going into battle. For if "you know your enemy and know yourself," he wrote, "you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." But, Sun Tzu warned, "If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat."

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 12:57 PM

No-one said you should be ashamed of anything Derrick.
Why that comment?
I gather that you and Steve are happy to be directed to a BNP site without warning.
OK. Perhaps it is just me, but I would have liked to have had the choice.
Of course you do not need approval Derrick, but I would prefer to be told what I was linking to.
I never disguise my links.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 12:23 PM

Keith,
I only looked to see what the fuss was about,if you had not made such a big deal of the issue I would not have bothered.
Am I ashamed NO I am well over the age of consent and do not need your approval thank you.
All reading it did was remind me how nasty some folk are.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 10:00 AM

Steve, I think it likely they harvest info. from visitors, and I do not want to help their hit rate.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:58 AM

"I'm puzzled by your indignation.
I doubt if anybody is Steve - drowning man and straws and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:57 AM

Derrick, are you happy to click on the BNP website?
If Jim had not hidden the address I would certainly have avoided it.
He could have just told us about their machinations, and given us the choice of linking to them.
That story hardly needed corroboration anyway.

Jim, you are again resorting to vindictive, malicious lying about me.
You can never just debate the issues.
I have no far right or Islamophobic views.

If you are not just a sleazy liar, produce an example that I have posted.
Good luck with that, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:50 AM

As a matter of fact I did click on it. As far as I know it hasn't resulted in the end of the world. I'm puzzled by your indignation. What's yer beef, Keef?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:30 AM

GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:25 AM
That was me

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:25 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:56 AM

Perhaps I am the only one who clicks on Jim's links.

Perhaps you are the only one complaining.
Jim was talking about right wing parties trying to rig the vote in an attempt to make Labour un-electable and linked to the BNP site as a perfect example.
Looking at an example of their tactics will not contaminate you unless you chose to follow them,read it as another reason not to support them.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:20 AM

"You could have just told us about it."
Could have told you whqat - the article is identified as a BNP statement - are you suggesting it should have come with a health warning
Did your extreme Islamophobic statements come with such a warning - they weren't even identified, yet you still defended them?
"Do you have any concerns about linking to the BNP website?"
Why on earth should anybody refuse to see what your lot are up to?
Leave it Keith - you're cover is blown
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:56 AM

Perhaps I am the only one who clicks on Jim's links.
Steve, did you click?
Do you have any concerns about linking to the BNP website?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:31 AM

And it is extremely stupid of you to come up with such an crassly stupid excuse for your protecting B.N.P.

Protecting how?
You could have just told us about it.
I would be perfectly happy for you to tell us anything you ever find out about that unpleasant organisation, and have no objection to being informed about them joining in the infiltration.

JUST DON'T POST LINKS TO BNP WITHOUT WARNING US WHAT THEY ARE!!!!!

I would not choose to link to them on my home computer.
You tricked me into doing just that, and how many others?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:21 AM

"It was stupidly irresponsible of you not to warn us what the link would lead us to."
And it is extremely stupid of you to come up with such an crassly stupid excuse for your protecting B.N.P.
Give it a rest Keith - you've gone and put your foot in it again.
"Lying about me again Jim."
You've been given examples of which sites you've defended
I'd leave it there, if I were you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:45 AM

Jim,
he fact that Keith condemned my exposing its tactics in relation to the Labour Party election.

This has become another lie you tell about me.
I was happy for you to post the information.
It was of interest and relevant to the discussion.

I condemned you for tricking me and who knows how many others into clicking on the BNP website.

It was stupidly irresponsible of you not to warn us what the link would lead us to.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:40 AM

I linked to the BNP site which carried the information - your response "Shame on you Jim."

Yes. Shame on you for tricking us into clicking on the BNP ewbsite.
I never advocate suppression of facts.
You could have just told us about it and offered the link if not believed.
I would have believed it at once.

Conservative intervention, egged on by The Daily Telegraph, is totally undemocratic - would you like to comment on that fact?

I agree with you, but how stupid of Labour to give them the opportunity.

The left have far more claim to the Labour Party, certainly than the Tories have

They both voted for the same candidate, so what difference?!

Perfect credentials for your ultra-rightness.

Lying about me again Jim.
I have never expressed a far right view because I have none.
Why do you do it?

Steve,
And Keith, you don't know any more than anyone else the precise reasons in individual cases why some of the three-quid applicants were excluded, the odd dishonest Tory MP aside, do you?

It is common knowledge.
They trawled their canvas records and the internet to see if they had supported other parties or attacked Labour values.
It has been widely reported.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:49 AM

"Come on Jim, you know the "hard left" will have been joining in droves,"
As they bloody well should
Following Blair's swinging the party to the extreme right and then involving Britain in a gulf war on the basis of lies and ignoring mass demonstrations, real socialists (not your sort) left the party in droves - it was argued that they should have stayed in and fought, but they decided that The Labour Party no longer represented socialism.
The Labour Party was set up, largely by the Trades Union Movement, to defend workers rights - those principles were betrayed.
It is only right that now there are signs of a leader who just might put the Labour party back on track, they should return to THEIR PARTY /font> and try and pull the country back from what it has been made by a combination of New Labour.
Conservative and Liberal Democratic policies.   
It is not infiltration to try and win back the party from those who have usurped it.
"Hard Left" is a bogeyman phrase invented by the press to smear decent, dedicated people (it is little different from the term "ultra-left", invented by the Stalinists in the fifties) - it doesn't surprise me in the least that you should use it.
"I doubt the BNP have many members left, so why the fuss?"
I have no interest in the BNP - I am interested in the fact that Keith condemned my exposing its tactics in relation to the Labour Party election.
The Tories did not join it "as a bit of a joke" - it was a deliberate campaign mounted by The Daily Telegraph - please avail yourself of the readily available evidence of this fact.
DAILY TELEGRAPH CAMPAIGN
Wake up Ake - it's all happening!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:13 AM

Come on Jim, you know the "hard left" will have been joining in droves, what's the point of denying it? Christ, even I might consider it myself!

The few Tories who have joined look on it as a bit of a joke, their votes are not going to make much difference. I doubt the BNP have many members left, so why the fuss?
As noted above, membership was open to all on the electoral register.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:12 AM

And Keith, you don't know any more than anyone else the precise reasons in individual cases why some of the three-quid applicants were excluded, the odd dishonest Tory MP aside, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:42 AM

Completely made up and untrue.
I linked to the BNP site which carried the information - your response "Shame on you Jim."
That was not an accusation carried by another paper - it was a statement by the organisation - suggesting it shouldn't be put up was suppression of that confession - interesting indeed.
Warning - what warning do I need to give - it's a headed statement?
You once defended one of the biggest cut'n'pastes by Bobad - five enormous pages of the stuff, taken from the extremist Muslim Watch site, demanding that we disprove anything they said and defending each claim, one by one.
Bobad's links were unheaded and unattributed, yet you continued to defend them when their source was pointed out to you.
"I obviously was already aware of Tory infiltration.
Then why have you been condemning it instead of concentration on unsubstantiated accusations that the left has been "infiltrating" the Labour party?
You made the point that other parties should not interfere
"I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party."
The left have far more claim to the Labour Party, certainly than the Tories have, and for that matter, more than the present Labour Leaders have - yet you set out to claim they have "infiltrated" and ignored the Tories doing the same - and you knew about it.
Perfect credentials for your ultra-rightness.
Conservative intervention, egged on by The Daily Telegraph, is totally undemocratic - would you like to comment on that fact?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM

Jim,
Far from being concerned with the fact that the fascist British National Party has boasted that it has infiltrated the Labour Party. you have attempted to suppress that information

Completely made up and untrue.
I find the fact most interesting and believable.
I obviously was already aware of Tory infiltration.
What I objected to was you linking to the BNP web site without any warning of what the link was.
I doubt I am the only person here who would not have chosen to click on it.

You have no evidence whatever of left infiltration of the Labour Party yet you persist in your claims

Yes I have.
I have posted a Guardian report where Labour officials say it is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:58 AM

All UK politics in my lifetime have been short term and Party orientated, this game is laughingly referred to as "democracy".

It will take decades for people to understand socialism, most haven't a clue and think it is about "human rights" and likewise myths in a capitalist society.....you see them on this forum.

Socialism in operation, is actually about sacrifice in the common good, to create a stronger society with a healthier outlook towards ecology and economy.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:14 AM

While discussing the possible news this morning with my missus I heard myself say that thanks to Mrs T the unions are not as frightening as the were back in the pre-New Labour days, so a left wing labour leader might get more support from the centre than many expect.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:11 AM

Given that we only half to wait two and a half hours, is it sensible to discuss this just now? If the leader is chosen by all three groups (long term members, affiliates and registered) then whether and to what extent the £3-ers contained the more extreme left and right is utterly irrelevant. If Corbyn doesn't win - and that's possible if the first round is not enough on its own - it is irrelevant. It is only if the decision comes down to the £3 group that matters. In the meantime the discussion is not about the leadership but which mud cater said what when, which is a bit boring as we can all read it for ourselves if we care enough.

I suggest people have patience to see what happens at 11:30 BST

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:59 AM

I have not even expressed an opinion about any of this, and I do not have one.
It is an interesting situation, but not relevant to me at all.

I raised the issue of infiltration from both right and left, and I raised the issue of Tory infiltration first. By many weeks.
No-one wanted to talk about it then.

If Harman really meant, " "Anyone – providing they are on the electoral register – can become a registered supporter,..." why did they then reject thousands who did apply?
They did not want people with different values to those of Labour.
Not right wing, not far right and not far left.
Those when identified were rejected, so not open to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:37 AM

Will there be a legal challenge? Difficult to predict, and I don't know English law well enough, but if it is legal I would expect the challenge to come from someone associated with the media and the right, not one of the candidates. It is very much in those people's interests to keep doubts about the validity going, whereas the party can see the sense of insisting the election was valid. Even the 'Common Good' group seem to be aiming to contain Corbyn, not overthrow him.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 08:07 PM

Keith is utterly typical of the Murdoch/Mail tendency. Find whatever negatives you can about the left, true or not, and dress it up with murmurings about entryism and infiltration. Don't bother with the facts by the way. They just get in the way of a good yarn, they do.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 07:38 PM

"Their intention was to subvert the Labour Party, "
Labour Party has been subverted by the right and made indistinguishable from those who have cause all the things that is wrong with Britain today
Far from being concerned with the fact that the fascist British National Party has boasted that it has infiltrated the Labour Party. you have attempted to suppress that information - an indication of your political credentials.
You have no evidence whatever of left infiltration of the Labour Party yet you persist in your claims
"I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party."
From today's Daily Telegraph:
"Andy Burnham demands 'urgent' meeting over Tory infiltrators in Labour leadership contest"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:21 PM

Well said indeed both Kevin and achmelvich (don't want to leave you out either, Jim!). Makes Keith's desperate right-wing wranglings look like the last-gasp protests of the owld curmudgeon that he really is. By the way, Keith, if you really want to tell us that everyone in Militant was in the SWP, let's have your evidence, names and pack drill please, Keith. You accuse others of making stuff up, don't you. So let's have it, chapter and verse please. Who in Militant was in the SWP? Name names! Come along now, Keith! We're all waiting!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:50 PM

"The far left was not invited"

It was actually, along with everyone else.

Harriet Harman on May 18 announcing voting arrangements for party leader: "Anyone – providing they are on the electoral register – can become a registered supporter, pay £3 and have a vote to decide our next leader. This is the first time a political party in this country has opened up its leadership contest in this way and I think there will be a real appetite for it out there".

She was right in that last bit!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:53 PM

Jim,
Yet you ignore one and pursue the other

No.
Everyone ignored it when I raised the issue of right infiltration.
For left wing, I was asked for evidence and then told it was inadequate so I produced more.
All I did was respond to what others asked of me.

There are dozens of examples and you know it -

I know no such thing liar.
You never have and never could find a single example because there are none.
It is all shitty lies from a shitty liar.

Steve,
They did not "infiltrate" any more than anyone else joining the party "infiltrated".

I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party.
The SWP.
Their intention was to subvert the Labour Party, which was why Labour had to expel them.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:19 PM

"I have said neither is important or unimportant, but I raised the issue of infiltration from the right first."
Yet you ignore one and pursue the other - without a shred of evidence and you objected to my raising BNP infiltration "shame on you" - why did you do that?
"It is a nasty, vindictive and malicious lie to claim that I have ever expressed a right wing view"
Hah!!
There are dozens of examples and you know it - but to raise them again here (as I have over the years) would be to close this thread - which is what you appear to want.
"what is a leftie - or anyone who cares for decency in our country- to do? we join the party and fight the Tories, together."
Drink to that anytime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 02:52 PM

apologies if i have posted similar before.
a bit of hope has made me all repetitive!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 02:24 PM

i have left the labour party a few times - usually because of the warmongering- but will join again on monday if jeremy corbyn is elected. having a left labour leader is what i have been waiting for for 40 years so it would be foolish to ignore the election now. i am the person you read about in the press - i have, twice, been in the swp and got stuck into the factional fighting in the early '80s. in the last election i was a green party candidate after being involved in the scottish 'yes' campaign. in short i am a socialist, an active trade unionist and have always been motivated by peace and human rights. that and a loathing of the tories and all their works. at heart, i am a bennite.
anyway, i paid my £3 and have made no secret of my views and history to the local labour party. nobody has questioned my right to vote for jeremy corbyn. in fact i have been invited to stand as a delegate for the constituency party (though this may be an error)
so good for the labour party and my local MP.
what is a leftie - or anyone who cares for decency in our country- to do? we join the party and fight the tories, together.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:57 PM

They did not "infiltrate" any more than anyone else joining the party "infiltrated". People with the same politics as Militant have always found a home in the Labour Party and you know it. Left wing factions at the time of Militant were absolutely nothing new. They were never outsiders looking in. It seems to me that nice, right-wingers who fit your agenda join parties, whereas those nasty lefties infiltrate parties. If you don't wish to be accused of making right-wing statements, you need to stop making comments that make you sound like a mainstream Daily Mail scaremonger. In any case, no doubt your usual desperate tactic of getting all nasty will have the effect you desire, that is, getting the thread closed.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:45 PM

lie to claim that I have ever expressed a far right wing view

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:43 PM

Steve yes.
They infiltrated and then had to be expelled.

Jim,
You have shown us that you believe it more important to to keep the left out of the Labour Party than to expose the fact that the B.N.P. is claiming to have infiltrated it

No.
I have said neither is important or unimportant, but I raised the issue of infiltration from the right first.

- you in fact, suggested it was wrong to do so =- vindicate that!

No.
I said it was wrong to link to a BNP site, and you did so without warning people where your link would take them.

I will not trawl over your track record - it is to well-known to be necessary.

It is a nasty, vindictive and malicious lie to claim that I have ever expressed a right wing view, or used an Islamophobic site.

If you are not a vile, malicious liar, produce ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE.

Good luck with that, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:24 PM

Sorry, apostrophe police.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:20 PM

Steve, the Labour party expelled them.

Therefore they were members of the party, as I have repeatedly told you. You can't infiltrate the Labour Party if you're a member of the Labour Party.

The Labour party obviously did not see them (you Steve) as Labour.

But they were the Labour Party. What you mean is that certain right-wing elements in the then Labour Party wanted them out. Other elements defended them. Important Labour figures on the left such as Eric Heffer, Ken Livingstone and Tony Benn defended them. I doubt that any of those were your cup of tea, but, like Militant, they were members of the Labour Party.

The Labour Party now objects to people like you infiltrating to elect a leader that the existing party does not want.

What a ridiculous thing to say. The party wants what the party elects tomorrow via a democratic process. The "existing party" is not a single mind. That's been one of Labours historical strengths. I note that you make no comment about your right-wing Tory bedfellows infiltrating.

The election was intended for supporters of the Labour Party.

See above.

The far left were not invited

Who was "invited", then, Keith? God, you're struggling tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 12:22 PM

"It is. Vindictive and malicious."
No it isn't Keith
I will not trawl over your track record - it is to well-known to be necessary.
You have shown us that you believe it more important to to keep the left out of the Labour Party than to expose the fact that the B.N.P. is claiming to have infiltrated it - you in fact, suggested it was wrong to do so =- vindicate that!
"I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did......shame on you Jim."
If that isn't an indication of your politics - what is it?
And you continue to claim thatr they have been infiltrated by the left - on the word of a press that has admitted there is no evidence for such a claim and on the word of the right-wing labour leadership, hopefully about to be replaced by somebody who stands for what the Labour Party was created for in the first place.
Why should the left have to infiltrate the Party - it is people like them who created it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:59 AM

I'm off on holiday