BS: Conservatives at Mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 09:13 PM

When something that you {i.e., KoAH} post raises questions in mind, or I don't agree with it, am I supposed to just marvel at your 'great wisdom', assume that your opinions are unassailable and bow my head in reverence?

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:48 PM

The anus is not even designed at all, Jim, to add to his woes. It evolved. One thing we can be reasonably confident about - no anus will ever have to tolerate childbirth. And absolutely definitely not when the sex was between two men.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:38 PM

"I am certain that I have not.""
Another of your pearls of wisdom
"if that is possible in today's climate, where we hand our children over to male homosexual foster parents, in some horrific social experiment.
Today, the needs and wants of powerful minorities come before the safety and welfare of our children."
And another
"Seems to me that the male homosexual act allied to the promiscuous lifestyle conducted by many homosexuals could be the trigger for the disease. Normal penetrative hetero-sex is very unlikely to cause internal injury to a woman, but penetrative sex between two men is very likely to, as the anus is not designed to tolerate sexual intercourse or childbirth."
Homophobia in anybody's book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:07 PM

"Jim, you have accused me of using this term several times lately, I am certain that I have not."
You've used it at least once and have constantly refererd to homosexuality being the cause of AIDS
You have constantly presented homosexuality as a personal choice - like a pair of shoes, and have dismissed the idea of homosexuals having the same rights as the rest of us as (at least) an unimportant waste of time and in regard to single-sex marriage as a threat to our way of life.
Yours has been a one-man, long-term homophobic campaign - your homophobia is fully recognised on this forum.
"Keith, probably leftish in terms of the Tory party"
No public Tory figure (or any politician) has made the statements regarding Muslim Culture that Keith has - had they done so, they would have faced dismissal and possible arrest for incitement to race hatred.
Hardly to the left of anywhere!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:48 PM

Sorry.

So you're left wing, right wing and centrist. It's all relative, hardly worth going on about.

I do not go on about it Kevin.
Steve does.
I was just repudiating his assertion that I am very right wing.
I am not.
I have never expressed right wing views.
I have none.
My views are mainstream and centre.
He has failed to identify anything I have ever posted that is not.

When something that you post raises questions in mind, or I don't agree with it, am I supposed to just marvel at your 'great wisdom', assume that your opinions are unassailable and bow my head in reverence?

No Shimrod.
Just put to me specifically what you question.
Do not make assertions about what I think!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:22 PM

"I know what I think rather better than you do Shimrod!

What exactly is your problem?
What is your issue with me all of a sudden?"

I'm just seeking to clarify some of your posts, KAoH - that hardly qualifies as having an "issue"! When something that you post raises questions in mind, or I don't agree with it, am I supposed to just marvel at your 'great wisdom', assume that your opinions are unassailable and bow my head in reverence?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,#
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 04:16 PM

Pete, see the thread below.

thread.cfm?threadid=158181&messages=12

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 03:02 PM

well that one did !

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 03:01 PM

has anyone else posted and it not appear ?   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 01:55 PM

You're very right wing in terms of the Labour party, Keith, probably leftish in terms of the Tory party. Either is I suppose centrist in a wider context. So you're left wing, right wing and centrist. It's all relative, hardly worth going on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 01:27 PM

" I regard homophobic terms like the "Gay Plague"

Jim, you have accused me of using this term several times lately, I am certain that I have not.

I think its about time you apologised.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 12:31 PM

There are millions of people living in exile from what is now Israel who have every moral and legal right to return to the homes from which they or their parents were driven, who are Muslim or Christian, and who are excluded from being citizens of the state.

Very much in the way that millions of black South Africans were declared to be citizens of various "native homelands". They were at least allowed to continua to live in the country that denied them citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 12:27 PM

"Jim to my having mentioned his leftwing views"
No - you did not "mention" them -= you demanded to know what they were - to tally out of context of what was being discussed at the time - somewhat different.
I have no problem being identified as a left-winger - if my support for the Palestinian people or for workers rights, or my opposition to Israeli State Terrorism, or homophobia or Islamophobia - (all expressed and supported on this forum on a regular basis) is being a "left winger" - I'm quite happy to be identified as such - I've never hid my views - I object to any label that may be attached to those views as an alternative to discussion - which all-too-often happens.
"Leftie" - or "bleeding heart leftie" - or do-gooder" is a regular replacement for argument.
Personally - I regard support for a British Prime Minister who befriended a mass-murdering South American dictator and described his actions as "democratic" as right-wing extremism.
In the same way, I regard homophobic terms like the "Gay Plague", or culturally linking all British Pakistanis to underage sex equally right-wing extremist.
However, I would much rather debate on their views than the politics behind them - much more satisfying.
People who express those views are what they are, no matter what label they attach to themselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 10:14 AM

Of course, then there's extreme right and ultra-right, not to speak of "somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan." We really are now in the realms of making the trains run on time.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 09:49 AM

Shimrod,
Steve has previously described me as "far right" and has never withdrawn it, so you can be quite certain that in calling me "very right wing" this time, that is what he meant.

Do you think that the criteria he cited prove me to be even "very right wing" Shimrod?

"I don't think that."

I beg to differ.

I know what I think rather better than you do Shimrod!

What exactly is your problem?
What is your issue with me all of a sudden?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 09:03 AM

"Far" and "very" are "synonymous."

This isn't getting us very far at all, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:10 AM

I don't think it is surprising that those who find folk music supports their political leanings are more likely to be on the left than on the right (although some far right groups have tried to appropriate folk music to their own ends). That does not prevent people with different views from enjoying the music, and it is not necessary to agree with a song in order to appreciate it. However a concert is not an appropriate place to start a political debate. If people disagree strongly with a song they can walk out.

It is also unsurprising that it is the most extreme views, at both ends of the spectrum, which attract most attention and debate. However on Mudcat I see all shades of opinion expressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 07:40 AM

" ... far right and very right wing are basically the same thing....could you explain any real difference?"

Yes, Ake, 'very' and 'far' have similar meanings linguistically but in a political context (particularly in a democracy) the terms 'right wing' or 'very right wing' tend to refer to political parties - like the UK Tory Party - who are economically and socially conservative. On the other hand, the term 'far right' is usually reserved for political parties who have strong totalitarian and/or racist elements in their ideologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:55 AM

Jesus! Shimrod, don't tell me you have joined the gang?

Pin dancing is so bloody boring, far right and very right wing are basically the same thing....could you explain any real difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:45 AM

"No it does not.
"Far" and "very" are "synonymous.""

I beg to differ.

"In addition, Keith, you haven't justified why you think that unquestioning conformity to the existing political status quo is intrinsically a 'good thing'.

I don't think that."

I beg to differ.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:40 AM

Sorry.

The term "very right wing" may, or may not, be an exaggeration - depending on your point of view. Nevertheless, "far right" means something different.

No it does not.
"Far" and "very" are synonymous in this context.

In addition, Keith, you haven't justified why you think that unquestioning conformity to the existing political status quo is intrinsically a 'good thing'.

I don't think that.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:38 AM

The term "very right wing" may, or may not, be an exaggeration - depending on your point of view. Nevertheless, "far right" means something different.

No it does not.
"Far" and "very" are "synonymous."

In addition, Keith, you haven't justified why you think that unquestioning conformity to the existing political status quo is intrinsically a 'good thing'.

I don't think that.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:32 AM

"The term he used was "very right wing.""

The term "very right wing" may, or may not, be an exaggeration - depending on your point of view. Nevertheless, "far right" means something different.

In addition, Keith, you haven't justified why you think that unquestioning conformity to the existing political status quo is intrinsically a 'good thing'.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:09 AM

HiLo, all you have to do if you wish to take up any point I've made is to read carefully what I actually said before you post. You are making a habit of not doing that. Twice now in one thread. Having to clarify what I've already couched in reasonably careful language is a pain in the neck, frankly. And I'm not attacking that phrase, Keith. I just expressed the opinion that it carries inevitable religious undertones which I think are deliberately intended. That's fine, as long as you guys don't keep denying what's obvious. I'm really not that bothered.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:00 AM

"Thank you however for your interest and concern as to every movement of mine"

*Sigh*. Let's face it, Michael. The older we get, the more we have to be concerned about our movements.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:52 AM

Steve,
The regime clings to the term Jewish state,

It was defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," and the term appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well.

What has changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:51 AM

Ge is also writing a potential best seller on how to Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:45 AM

Didn't say I was going anywhere, Steve; just taking one of my periodic couple of days' break from this forum when it seemed to me to be growing even more than usually obnoxious.

Thank you however for your interest and concern as to every movement of mine. Most complimentary of you. Has your agent found a publisher yet for the best-selling biography of me that you are obviously planning for when I finally fall off the twig?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:37 AM

I was expecting that Steve. So glad you have sorted out "Jewishness" for me. Yes , now I get it. You never fail to amaze.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:36 AM

You told us you were off for a bit but neglected to tell us where you were going! Damn. Don't bother with a postcard then. Unless you can find a nice aerial view of the M11.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:32 AM

Steve -- Sorry, but I find your last post addressed to me completely incomprehensible. I am here at home in sunny Cambs as usual. Not sure I have ever visited Marbella; certainly not recently anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:21 AM

Shimrod,
Did Mr Shaw actually use the term, "far right" in the context of New Labour", Keith?

The term he used was "very right wing."
He justified describing me as that because I voted New Labour and because my of my position on Israel which he acknowledged was just that of all Western governments.

OK Shim?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:06 AM

That's fine, Michael. Do you want my snailmail address to send a postcard to? Where did you say you were, the fleshpots of Marbella, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM

You can be Jewish but not of the Jewish faith. Secular Jews. That is not the first time in this thread that has been pointed out. There are millions of people in Israel not of the Jewish faith is what I said. A good number of them would still characterise themselves as Jews. Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 04:46 AM

"You proved that by your claim that voting New Labour makes someone far right!"

Did Mr Shaw actually use the term, "far right" in the context of New Labour", Keith? You might like to go back through this thread and check that. The term 'far right' usually refers to totalitarian dictatorships or racist parties such as the BNP.

"Also that taking the same position as all Western governments makes you far right."

Did he also use the term "far right" in the context of "all Western governments"?

That last statement also implies that you think that, ideally, one should align one's own political convictions with the current status quo(?) Perhaps you should bear in mind that current Western governments have presided over a steadily deteriorating environment, have embraced neo-liberal free market economics - which has led to one major financial crash already and has threatened the social cohesion of many of our societies. In addition they have made a profoundly horrifying mess of the Middle East. Any real democrat (as opposed to a servile, cringing, unthinking conformist) should be out on the barricades challenging this sad - and increasingly dangerous - state of affairs!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 04:36 AM

Quoting Steve Shaw re Israel..."millions of people live there who are not of the Jewish faith". The are eight million people living in Israel of whom seventy five per cent declare themselves as Jewish. Fewer than two million are non Jewish. Just to point out that there are not "millions" of non Jews in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Stu
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 04:10 AM

"Stu, I don't know where you get your ideas about Dawkins from"

My issue with Dawkins is not his science, but the fact he drives people from science with an unnecessarily combative and sometimes downright insulting attitude. I'm certainly not against his campaigns to keep creationism out of science classes - that goes without saying.

We need to make science open to everyone regardless of personal beliefs or background, and when Dawkins fires off some ill-timed and ill-thought comment on a schoolboy arrested for making a clock (for example) this puts people off. My colleagues spend a LOT of time out at science fairs and in schools talking about our work to anyone interested; that's how to communicate science. Inserting your personality and personal views between the science and the people you're trying to communicate with isn't a help.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 04:06 AM

Mr Myer quotes from Jim - and proves Jim's point. How nice.

It has been a commonplace in England for years to regard the Church of England as the conservative party at prayer. But recently the organised Church of England seems to have found its conscience, at least part of the time.

The overlap between religion and right-wing politicians probably arises, in my view, from the fact that organised religions are top-down organisations who believe that adherents (and others too) should do what the church (and thus God) tells them to do. This, alas, is not necessarily the same as pursuing justice or fairness. The two sometimes collide (see above).

The political right have no commitment to justice or fairness. They defend the liberty of the rich and powerful to oppress the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 04:00 AM

@ S. Shaw Esq

Your 'advice', referring to an extract I repro'd, at your request, from a some-good-long-time-ago thread, is perhaps just an itzibitzi-teensiweensi bit behind the fair, is it not?; and I was, I repeat, simply answering a question you had asked, and do not recall having, in any way manner shape or form, solicited your 'advice'.

Kindly bear in mind that when I want your opinion, I will give it to you!

Best regards as ever

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 03:47 AM

Nurse...

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 03:38 AM

Steve, from the perspective of your far left perch you are incapable of judging the views of others.

You proved that by your claim that voting New Labour makes someone far right!
Risible.
Also that taking the same position as all Western governments makes you far right.
Only to you Steve!
You make the left look silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 03:30 AM

Damn! too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 03:29 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:45 AM

confused is confused

ignorant is ignorant

lets not confuse the issue

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 11:40 PM

Right, it sure looks like you have!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 08:19 PM

Don't worry, I've moved along.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 08:11 PM

It's just a waste of energy getting all heated up about nasty little attacks online. It just rewards whoever attacks you.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 07:19 PM

Michael, re Jim, quoth: "the insufferable self-righteous little lefty prig!"

Well, Michael, you might just have got away with "ooo Jim, you cheeky lefty you!" But, instead, you elected to embed the accusation within a tirade of contumely. So of course Jim took umbrage. Who wouldn't have? Have more consideration for outcomes on future occasions, that's my advice!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 07:08 PM

Absolute nonsense. The regime clings to the term Jewish state, whether or not most people practise or not, because they know that the underlying religious connotation of the term contains an extremely powerful binding force. Now I find this difficult because I don't know whether I'm talking to one anonymous coward or two. So move along, will you please, one or both of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 07:02 PM

English..schminglish....