BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:15 AM

Last Tuesday programme was called "girls to Men" and has met with various hostility from the trans community due to the lack of proper langauge, pronoun useage and using film that was 'stolen' off youtube without the owners consent and put in the film.

The overall idea of the programme seemed sound but the stereotyping of people and language was very apparent, which was a major distraction to what could have been a much better educational attempt. Sadly some people witll still be no better enlightened and carry on using the 'bad' language in the programme.

Trans people seldom argue they go from being a man to a girl or a girl to a man. They ARE identified as being something they are not, based on genitalia, when born which sends them certain pathways of conformity in early life. The programme sadly placed too much emphasis on genitals and surgery being a 'target' to become the correct gender. It simply is not the case.

The last programme in this series appears to be based in America (a kind of trans camp where children can just be who they want to be) and is screened on Tuesday night on Channel 4, 10.00PM

Fingers crossed that better care is takien in both representation and fact!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 05:31 PM

thread drift......what is this about anyway?

preserving gender... you can't pickle it like gherkins or walnuts.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:46 PM

Continuing thread drift.......postman pat, postman pat, postman pat ran over his cat.       Blood and guts went flying, postman pat was crying.    Ever seen a cat as flat as that...

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 01:50 PM

Let me say I prefer the silent picture version! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 12:42 PM

As it's Saturday I'll verge a bit on the crude & dodgy side...

That image links to a version of the song that goes something like..

"Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat and his brand new twat..."

Which is why I was hesitant about posting it.

Now.. I don't know if there is any more to that version of the song,
or if that's all there is...??

But as this is a folk song site.. somebody amongst us lot [Big Al ???]
could be more than capable of knocking out a funny rude positive parody version..???

"Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat and her brand new twat..."...?????

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 09:02 AM

@ GUEST @ 08 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

My apologies. I have been busy and not got back to this until now

Your link (and many more like it) point almost certainly as can be of some genetic and hormonal modelling that may be affected by environment. I touched on epigenetics below (or above depending how you read the pages) as it promises much explanation if not a complete answer to so many traits that humans have and express as well as sexuality and gender.

Thank you for posting it up

@ punfolkrocker

I so tittered when I saw your cartoon. My poor daughter loved Postman Pat as he was but am sure she would accept Postess Pat too quite happily. I suspect Jess will be happy no matter who feeds her ;)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

Some current findings on the nature vs nurture debate regarding sexual orientation:

Researchers Find Link Between DNA Marks And Sexual Orientation

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

Sorry about the double post, I get impatient with the slowest computer in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:07 PM

Madame likes it.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:07 PM

Madame likes it.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:32 PM

sorry.. I've been struggling against my better judgement for three days
but the inner immature pillock in me has won the battle....

Whatever the intent behind this image was - good or bad..
I just can't help finding it charmingly amusing...

And the earworm melody from the bloody song has been driving me completely nuts... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:04 PM

@ ellen V

You know ellen I walk around these days and am facinated at just how much things have changed. It is almost surreal. I now have an office on a street my Mum used to walk me as a little boy holding my hand, taking me to get a new tractor (I loved diggers and still do love watching them!). I walk those same pavements now as a woman, and see how far the path is I have travelled. Many are no longer on the path with me - their choice and I do not blame them - while others remain steadfast and loving.

45 years ago, when I was in the RAF, if I had ever been found out to be as I am I would have been arrested, dishonourable discharged and put in military prison. Not so these days where we have trans soldiers, sailors and airmen.

There are still prejudices. You can make laws but some people's behaviour will not be changed. However, most people seem to embrace this seachange of feelings and open respect for others who live different lives. I am most grateful for that opportunity and put back what I can when I can. It is so easier to give when you are whole :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:56 AM

@ Jim C

Ah, Jim :(

I know a great many gay folk that could tell similar stories. They made great parents and, most of them, their children have done well and still accept them. Lavender marriages are certainly no stranger to these shores, as it offered protection to both partners in 'seeming normal' to those ho would frown about them or worse. I know some great gay parents and it is extremely common these days for women to eventually come out late in life as gay and live with a woman once the children have flown the nest. I also know some remarkably unselfish partners who have know 'the secret' and made no demands. A gay man and a gay woman who love each other emotionally but not physically is not unusual these days.

So many trans folk are forced to comply and lead an exaggerated life in order to try and fit in but, eventually, the genie cannot be kept in the bottle any longer or suicide ensues. Even being trans can lead to a very early violent death (as being gay can too). All because people cannot live and let live.

I hate hate :(

But I also know the greatness of those beautiful folk who support and accept, love and care. It's not all bad news thanfully.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:35 AM

I watched the programme with someone who said 'I wish it had been like that for me when I was a child."

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:30 AM

"When the parent of a child who is transgender force them to behave as if they weren't,"
Don't know if anybody saw the (perhaps repeat of the) programme honouring outstanding individuals of the latter half of the 290th century.
The example that sticks in my mind is of the now elderly man who discovered he was gay at an early age and was told by his parents to pull himself together and behave like a man.
He married and raised a family and when they grew up and left home, and when his wife passed away, 'came out'.
Now well into his 80s, he is one of the leading figures in the Gay Pride movement on the South coast of England.   
Talk about oppression - and sacrifice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:36 AM

Here is a copy of the poem little Paddy's Mum read out to her in the programme...

Mother's Inspiring Poem


The poem makes much more insightful reading if you saw the programme but is, nevrtheless, still quite beautiful

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 06:44 PM

I hear you Pete fssl. Complex indeed but at least not as hidden and more out in the open where hope can remain viable :)   I feel for all involved, truly I do

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:02 PM

I watched most of it and it is certainly a difficult situation for all concerned and I don't want to say anymore than that. There are a lot of uncertainties involved and challenges all round.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 11:33 AM

Just got through watching the programme and it was a far better standard than the title. It was quite touching. What it did show is also the effects that a loving family can have when support is in place. I have a great deal of admiration for the parents and their other children too. Well done on a good programme and good luck to the families involved... each individual :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 08:50 AM

To mine too!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 08:27 AM

When the parent of a child who is transgender force them to behave as if they weren't, the parents are clearly manipulative or psychologically abusive. See Leela Alkorn. Welcome on board.

That is so subtle as to be sublime :) Ellen you brought a big smile to my face

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 08:23 AM

Absolutely Ak. When the parent of a child who is transgender force them to behave as if they weren't, the parents are clearly manipulative or psychologically abusive. See Leela Alkorn. Welcome on board.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM

Kid is not an Americanism. The use of the word for child predates Christopher Columbus by several hundred years. Don't always believe what you believe.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:37 AM

I think you are looking at the wrong thread, ake. Try the pope in America one. I think you are becoming confused and need a good rest. Keith did not mention anything in a PM but in a thread. You mentioned it in a PM but, like you, I will not reprint anything sent in confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:03 AM

In Scotland, we still use the word "wean" for small children I like it, it's natural sounding and comforting to wee ones.

I of course don't object to "kids" which I believe is an Americanism.
I do object for infant boys or girls being referred to as the opposite gender, this shows the parents to be manipulative or psychologically abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 05:43 AM

Sorry admin, I have just noticed the offending comments have been removed, please feel free to remove my response as it now seems out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 03:19 AM

I never reprint or comment on PMs.....from anyone, unless criminally abusive.    It is common knowledge that my wife is very unwell I mentioned it in a pervious thread over a year ago, you were involved in that thread.

If Keith did mention it in a PM, I'm sure that it was with the best intentions, though I would rather that he did not.
I consider you a troll and your condescending attitude reinforces that opinion, you had no need to mention the matter at all.

My wife's condition has absolutely no bearing on anything I write here or any opinions I may put forward.

I advised you to "put your opinions clearly and I would do the same."

That is all that I require from you.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 07:12 PM

I agree that we should all keep up and try to be sensitive about our use of words. I think there are some informal contexts in which "kids" is sort of all right. Most of the families with, er, children that grew up with our children called theirs and ours kids. I do share your dislike of that expression used for the programme title, though. Catchiness bordering on the offensive can jar.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 05:38 PM

I am not sure if it will forward the discussion or understanding both of situations and the language, but there is a programme on UK televison tomorrow night (Tuesday) at 10pm on Channel 4 called "Transgender Kid"

I am not a great lover of the word "transgender" to be honest, nor "kid". Transgender is a bin word that includes widely disparate types of people and situations. It does not great justice in my experience as all get 'binned together' and yet are extremely different.

I like children to be called children because that is what they are and I think they deserve the privelige of their label for as long as they can keep it.

The programme, words aside, has potential. I have seen other channel 4 programmes to do with transsexuality, racism, disability, etc., that have presented quite balanced views. I hope this is not different. Sensationalism is never fair on the the subject being sensationalised. Rational presentation of facts is a good way forward.

The whole language around gender is evolving rapidly, because as research shows and explains many changes, the subject evolves. Gender is far from simple and is not quite the social construct many would believe it is. It goes much deeper, as does sexuality, and in some cases is even 'fluid' for some.

I hope the programme helps answer some things for any with an honest curiosity on the subject. I just saw it and thought to post. I will be recording it as I am out singing tomorrow night.

Thank you good people too for your good wishes I have received. You know who you are :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 04:24 AM

"a group that was granted a meeting because of the Pope's "usual kindness and availability".
I am aware that the Vatican is now distancing itself from the incident - it has been reported here (Ireland) as fact and up to now has not been questioned.
The story they are circulating doesn't ring quite true as one thing the Pope did dot have on his trip was "availability" see Reuter article
REUTERS
Either could be true, but given the Church's approach to issues such as Gay Marriage and pregnancy termination (yet another scandal concerning a rape victim here), they have a greaty deal of ground to cover to reach even the middle of the 20th century on these matters.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 03:45 AM

Well, that has shone a new light on what has been happening here jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:16 PM

Thanks, Steve. Don't know how I missed her post, but I did.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:54 PM

I did mean Ellen, Jeri, but I endorse what Ebbie said too.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:37 PM

"Come in, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò. I have a nice little parish you can look after: Craggy Island, I think it's called."

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:35 PM

Steve, I think you meant "Ebbie"?
Thank you for understanding what I meant.

As for debate, there are some things I might care to debate, and some people I would care to debate with. Quite a while ago, I realized that debating with people who were entrenched in their beliefs and refused to acknowledge any evidence that didn't support their opinions, was time wasting and pointless. So no, I won't bite that bait.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:27 PM

Yeah, apparently the Pope and the Vatican weren't happy about being used by Davis. Story

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:13 PM

Well said, Ellen.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:43 PM

Jim Carroll, note that the Vatican, through a spokesman, denies that there was an individual meeting between the Pope and Davis, and says that she was in a group that was granted a meeting because of the Pope's "usual kindness and availability".

Methinks Davis's lawyer, Staver, is beyond credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:27 PM

Oh Ak, have you read nothing? Gender and sexuality are not the same thing. Children may be unaware of their sexuality until puberty but they are well aware of their gender - and well aware when something is horribly wrong. But perhaps you think transpeople are lying when they say they knew from earliest childhood that their gender identities don't match their bodies. If you allow a child to live a life which accords with their identity they will have a happy childhood. The abuse is forcing and bullying a child to conform to what others think they should be rather than what they know themselves to be.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:23 PM

MP could you please explain where I said anything illegal.
You make stuff up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:15 PM

Jeri, my remarks were not initially directed at M P, she jumped in and decided to take offence where none was intended.

My remarks were on a related subject. As I have made clear many times, what she wishes to call herself is absolutely no concern of mine.

RIGHT and WRONG don't come into this particular discussion, as MP and I are talking about two different things.
If you think I am wrong about the manipulation of small children, I am more than happy to debate the topic thrown up by my link.

My point is that infants and small children should not be encouraged to question their sexuality. Childhood should be a time of adventure and excitement.....my own childhood and that of my friends was almost idyllic, though we were all as poor as church mice.

We were never forced to confront problems which we could not possibly understand.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:30 PM

Incidentally
Were people aware that the 'liberal' Pope, on his recent visit to The U.S., congratulated the registration clerk who refused to issue same sex marriage licences and was jailed for the same, and encouraged her to carry on with her crusade.
Tourists get away with murder while they're on holiday nowadays - it's the same in Faliraki, I believe!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:24 PM

"anyone's bollocks dropped off yet with the chemicals?"
We.....lllll
World War two hero, Alan Turing's (the man who cracked the Enigma Code) where 'helped off', thanks to some of the enlightenment on display here.
Jim Carroll

Homosexuality, Conviction and Death
Homosexuality was illegal in the United Kingdom in the early 1950s, so when Turing admitted to police—who he called to his house after a break-in—in January, 1952, that he had had a sexual relationship with the perpetrator, 19-year-old Arnold Murray, he was charged with gross indecency. Following his arrest, Turing was forced to choose between temporary probation on the condition that he receive hormonal treatment for libido reduction, or imprisonment. He chose the former, and soon underwent chemical castration through injections of a synthetic estrogen hormone for a year, which eventually rendered him impotent.
As a result of his conviction, Turing's security clearance was removed and he was barred from continuing his work with cryptography at the GCCS, which had become the GCHQ in 1946.
Turing died on June 7, 1954. Following a postmortem exam, it was determined that the cause of death was cyanide poisoning. The remains of an apple were found next to the body, though no apple parts were found in his stomach. The autopsy reported that "four ounces of fluid which smelled strongly of bitter almonds, as does a solution of cyanide" was found in the stomach. Trace smell of bitter almonds was also reported in vital organs. The autopsy concluded that the cause of death was asphyxia due to cyanide poisoning and ruled a suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:16 PM

I liked your 09.47 post very much, Jeri. It was crystal clear to me, but it don't think akenaton got it.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:12 PM

"diffuse things" errr... of course I meant "defuse"...

the pollutants are probably first effecting my eye balls...... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:03 PM

anyone's bollocks dropped off yet with the chemicals?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:47 PM

It has become obvious that the usual suspects wish to close this thread as they do so many that proves that they are both wrong and in the minority. Don't worry. Their time is at an end. The new enlightened time is ahead of us thankfully. Keep plugging the new order, MP and friends. The dinosaurs have not long left to go :-)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:25 PM

@ punkfolkrocker

I am waiting and looking forward very much to seeing it. As I mentioned in a thread yesterday, it was gay folk (including trans and dragkings) that started the whole PRIDE thing off after the Stonewall riots. In the case of the film you mention I think it reflects that LGB & T folk have just as much a social conscience as 'normal' (whatever that is) left wing or liberal folk do

I have know several gay miners (now most have died of mine related illness NOT AIDS as some would have say) and they lived in great fear of being found out back then. One man I know who goes to a club I sing at was imprisoned for being gay at one spell and he was in a long term relations with him partner (who recently dies after them being together for 35 years!). Thank heavens people are willing to stand up and be heard eh?

:)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:15 PM

vain attept to diffuse things a bit...

Anyone seen the recent movie "Pride" - about socialist gay activists fund raising for the miner's strike.

A bit of a corny feel good entertainment, but that's what it set out to do, and achieves it very well.

It's like a BBC historical costume drama.. ermmm..set in the mid 1980s.. Donkey Jackets..

I definitely enjoyed the nostalgia of the reasonably authentic sense of era,
when me and my mates were students involved in all that sort of thing...

Folks here might despise suchlike..
but old lefty class warriors with somewhat dinosaur attitudes to feminists & gays
were common enough fixtures for anyone familiar with socialist worker and morning star way back then....

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:07 PM

Pharoah and Professor Kieth are not worth the effort of attempting to engage them in rational discourse.

Resist the urge; That way lies madness (or at the very least, a migraine.
)