BS: should UK leave the EU?

Subject: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:42 AM

i voted against going in in '74.

after a bit as European travel became more prevalent. i got to rather like being part of europe.

still, i think it would be great to tell the spanish fishermen to piss off.

have you any thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:14 AM

yeah - for us skint musicians it's great to be able to buy bargain music gear and guitars from internet shops in Germany
without being clobbered for the extortionate additional vat and import duties.
that makes buying from the USA no longer affordable...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:27 AM

Your answer seems to be a bit self-contradictory to me, PFR; do you want to stay or leave?

My answer -- yes please: sooner the better. Why should we stay in an organisation whose two main members, France & Germany, disagree about pretty well everything — except that they unite in a mutual hatred of us! Can't think why we ever joined.

Outoutoutoutout.....

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:51 AM

Well if Michael can give semi-daft and simplistic reasons for leaving, I'll do the same for staying. I don't want my new grandson to be called up for a war with Germany, just like I never got called up and my son never got called up. Plus I absolutely love the Mediterranean. Apart from that, tell the Spanish fishermen to bugger off and get a few other things sorted, such as paying farmers too much bloody money for producing either nothing, stuff we don't need or stuff we do need that's of rubbishy quality.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:54 AM

And there's nothing wrong with straight cucumbers. There's this convent....

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:54 AM

I consider myself a European.. I want to stay.

If I could, if I had money and mobility, I'd move off this petty insular restrictive little island
and live in Central Europe.
or Scandinavia, or the sunny Mediterranean...

So much choice and diversity over there on the other side of the bleak cold forbidding English Channel.

I'd vote to dam it at either end, drain it, and return us back to the mother mainland... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:14 AM

I love the Med too. Can't remember any sort of let or hindrance to my visiting it on multiple occasions in my long life; many before this incredible stinkeroo of a European folly was ever thought of.

What the piggi·poo·pooz do you imagine that has to do with it, Steve? & you have the all·fire copulatory nerve to accuse me of simplisticism!

Away you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:30 AM

Michael, Germany does not hate us and does not want to see us go. The French are just jealous buggers who don't have a language you can sing in and who make inferior cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:31 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:41 AM

I can prove it about the cheese. A few weeks ago I thought I'd try some Pie d'Angloys. I bought a lump and stuck it in the fridge. Next day Mrs Steve threatened divorce if I didn't remove it immediately. Damn stuff stunk out not just the fridge but the whole house, in spite of my triple-wrapping it in polythene bags. We could still whiff it 24 hours after its extirpation from the premises. Bloody French muck, coming over here and taking over our houses like that...

Mind you, it tasted bloody good...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:45 AM

and what fuck GARLIC ? fs

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM

Many French cheeses are delicious — even be they surrender-monkeys during its consumption; and some even smell quite agreeable. Fear your concept of 'proof' maybe just an itsy-bitsy defificent on this occasion, eh, Steve?
Bring on the Camembert & the St-Agur & the Brie!

Mmmmmm. Slurp!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:07 AM

Here's a view from a Yank who visited Europe twice this past summer and whose wife is currently in Blighty:

Don't.

Do you really want to have your products go through customs when they leave the other end of the chunnel? Or do you want to go through customs and immigration whenever you vacation in the Med? Do you think the Northern Irish want the customs hassle when they go to the Republic...and vice-versa? Scotland is stomping to leave the UK -- they would almost certainly go with the EU in that case and again bringing up the customs hassles.

Remember, the EU countries would pass business back and forth without let or hindrance but the UK could not. Since the UK was, in August 2015, a net importer (albeit from both EU and non-EU), are you certain the game would be worth the candle?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:14 AM

Now I think I've more than established I'm no nasty petty little englander xenophobe nationalist..

But when it comes to cheese.. CHEDDAR rules the Universe....!!!!!!!

... where I come from there's eff all else to be proud of apart from our cider and cheese!!!... 😜

[.. and... errrr.. didn't the French or Romans invent Cider...???]

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:28 AM

Definitely leave the EU. And leave the Eurovision song contest while we're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:28 AM

"Your answer seems to be a bit self-contradictory to me, PFR; do you want to stay or leave?"

The present situation makes it very easy to be ambivalent about the EU.

I was in favour in 74. Since the Iron Curtain came down I think that expansion has been too rapid but at the moment I feel that the balance is still on the side of staying in.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:32 AM

I have recently come across a superb German cheese called (oddly) Montagnolo d'Affine. As for Brie, the finest I ever had was Sharpham's. Next best is Sainsbury's Somerset Brie which never fails to run everywhere. But Cheddar is the best. Sainsbury's are selling lumps of Wookey Hole cave-aged for £1.50. I've bought six lots.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:34 AM

i voted against going in in '74. - Actually you didn't. You voted to leave what we'd already joined, without being consulted. And it was 1975, not 1974.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:39 AM

errmmm... yeah - I can see how I confuded some of the folks who adhere to more precise use of english language.

When I started my first post with "Yeah".. that was just a habitual idiosyncratic tic..
a positive affirmation of how wonderful life is being a European able to buy bargain gear from Thomann.de..

...

not "Yeah - let's leave the EU"... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:45 AM

Look at the people running the campaign to get out, and staying in seems a no brainer. Until you look at the people heading the campaign to stay in.

This cartoon in today's Guardian makes this point graphically.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM

Love the flavour of a good Cheddar, especially with a good sweet pickle like a Branston or some slices of not too strong raw onion; but texture can be deficient — tends to crumble too easily. We all have our tastes, fromagistically. A really good, moist, new piece of Emmental probably my fave, and good Brie or Camembert come close.
And of course I once made a record on the old Brewhouse label called Butter·&·Cheese·&·All.

But I personally, all drifts aside, would like to see us shake off the burden of being beholden to an onerously officious organisation with which I still feel we were unwise to get involved in the first place.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:05 PM

"I bought a lump and stuck it in the fridge."

What did you do that for? Cheese should always be served at rom temperature and never chilled. How do you know you don't like French cheese if you can't take it properly.

Bloody rosbifs.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:09 PM

why does nobody ever complain about the fact that we are culturally, militarily and politically dominated by america? and there is not one single thing they can teach us about beer, cheese or football? i don't like the fact that europe is run as a cartel for free market capitalism but there is much to be gained from all the many vibrant and positive cultures of europe. workers of the world unite!

(err....apart from the independent scots, obviously)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

It has many faults but, on balance, I would want to stay. Just as Scotland stayed in The UK.

We've done very so far not be swallowed up in the bigger whole and, despite what Farage and Co might argue, we have have been able to retain a great deal of our own autonomy and are still distinctively different. So too, incidentally is Scotland , Wales, NI, and England from each other!

"Definitely leave the EU. And leave the Eurovision song contest while we're at it."

My biggest issue with The EU was its rapid expansion but, at least, it's still not as cumbersome as the Eurovision song contest which even managed to have Australia in it this year!

Mind you, it was Britain under Thatcher and Major who did much to encourage the former Easter European states and others to join up. So, if it doesn't suit The Tories and their supporters now, they only have themselves to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:38 PM

Remember, the EU countries would pass business back and forth without let or hindrance but the UK could not. Since the UK was, in August 2015, a net importer (albeit from both EU and non-EU), are you certain the game would be worth the candle?
If the UK is a net purchaser from Europe then even if we leave it will be in their interest to make buying/selling between the UK & Europe as easy as possible, or they're losing a large market.

Germany does not hate us and does not want to see us go.
Of course they don't. Apart from being a large market for their good, the UK is a net contributor to EU funds.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:40 PM

"yeah - for us skint musicians it's great to be able to buy bargain music gear and guitars from internet shops in Germany
without being clobbered for the extortionate additional vat and import duties.
that makes buying from the USA no longer affordable..."

Errrrrmmmmm, you pay VAT at whatever rate applies in the supplier's Member-State, PFR. All you avoid is import duty, which is around 4% on musical instruments and accessories, and the difference between the UK's VAT Rate and the Rate charged by the supplier.

I buy quite a lot of musical stuff from the US and I've yet to find an EC supplier who can beat the cost from the US. If you have, I'd appreciate a heads-up, I'm always up for saving a bob or two! 👍😎

The main drawback to buying from the US, AFAIC, is the long delay in delivery - one to three weeks usually.

And no, we most definitely should not leave the EC. We should get 100% on board, start to become a major player, and have some real influence to break up the 'Germany and France Mutual Benefit Society'.

IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:11 PM

yes you are right to correct me on my sloppy hasty typing,
I accept that.
But in principle, I still believe it's cheaper these days to buy low to mid budget semi pro gear from Europe.

I also used to buy a lot of [ too much] gear from USA about a decade ago..
Probably a more favourable exchange rate back then..??

But in recent years the deal breaker has been not just the VAT imposed on goods at this end;
but vat payable on the entire total including postage.
[plus Brit post parcel service helping themselves to a compulsory handling charge..]

..and delivery courier costs have sky rocketed since stricter USA security restrictions were enforced..???

BTW - I'm talking about 2 to 4 hundred $ guitars.


Obviously if anyone buys $4K luxury guitars from the states, the delivery costs will seem proportionately insignificant.
Which will still be a bargain compared to UK retail.


Also, what seems a petty & spiteful act of UK govt was to lower the amout allowable before VAT is charged
from something like previous £17ish to now £13ish
which no longer makes buying even smaller accessory purchases worthwhile..

Though happily, one recent exception..

Back in Feb I managed to get a brand new guitar from the states for total less than £400
while they were still 7 - 9 hundred here... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:30 PM

NO!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:37 PM

ps... as far as I recall.. I'm sure Vat on guitars and FX pedals from USA was approx 20%.. ???

It used to work out something like this

eg.. approx - Guitar £150 + delivery & total VAT etc £40

Which used to mean I'd pay about 200 quid for a guitar costing about £300 or more retail here in UK.

Now the courier costs have more than doubled, which in turn inflates up the VAT total..
So no longer really worthwhile at my price level...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:38 PM

Your all wrong about cheese of course. The further you get from Lancashire, the worse the cheese gets.

1. Lancashire
2. Cheshire
3. Wensleydale
4. Stilton
5. Cheddar, Gloucester and all the others that taste the same
6. Across the channel, Here there be dragons...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

Since the USA doesn't have a national VAT that doesn't work. They've got sales tax in various states, but that shouldn't be charged on an exprt to the UK ( though I'm not sure they always actually do adjust the price), and importa are liable to pay the full 20%. In fact it seems a bit hit and miss, and they tend not to charge it on small purchases. But they do on anything bigger. You get a note stuck through your front door, and pay the amount when you pick it up at the depot office.

But those kind of things aeen't significant in this choice. The deal breaker for me could be the TPPI.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:21 PM

First off I'm a Lancastrian so Lancashire cheese should be top of my list ............... however Lincolnshire Poacher and it's mature brother Poachers Imp are really sublime.

Then there's stuff I make myself !

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:30 PM

Oi, Stu, I bought the stuff several days before our Wednesday cheese night. If I hadn't put it in the fridge it would have walked out of the house! I always take cheese out half a day before we eat it and leave it unwrapped so that it can breathe. Crucial!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:34 PM

I like a nice cheddar (Ivy's Vintage Reserve please) and a Stilton, but too many English cheeses are bland and dry. Some of the newly invented English blue cheeses are nice and some of the older ones too.

On the EU however, the social chapter and workers rights and EU discrimination law are all valuable things.

TTIP and free movement of capital are not. If we had a government that could opt out of the TTIP that the EUcrats are about to drag us into (despite about three and a half million signatures on a petition opposing it) I would seriously consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. If we had a government that could at a stroke re-impose exchange control, just as the bitch Thatcher abolished it I might also consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. But we haven't.

The first and most important thing to do is to get rid of the con-servatives.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:08 PM

As I understand it, once we are signed up to TTPI as part of the EU, then even if we get a government that wants to pull out, it can't. The only way out would be to leave the EU, or for all 28 governments in the EU to decide to leave the TTPI.

I'd like to see Labour make rejection of the TTPI a condition of fighting to stay in.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:38 PM

Green's Cheddar, Wookey Hole cave-aged Cheddar and Bath Blue, Richard. I bought some Bath Blue at Gloucester Services and it was past it. I bought some at the Fine Cheese Company shop in Bath and it was sublime. They do mail order. There are very few products about which I say hang the expense, but, with Bath Blue, hang the expense. Stilton rarely does it for me, but, and I kid you not, the best Stilton I've had in years was Tesco British Stilton. Not even a Tesco Finest either.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:30 PM

they wouldn't grant Lincolnshire the right to have exclusive use of the term Lincolnshire Sausage. that's mean.

Bloody champagne that nobody drinks. that's got to be made in the place champagne comes from.

I think the guys who run it are a bit sus.

and why don't they support US military action - ever - even when they are fighting absolute arseholes on our behalf. its not like the yanks didn't do us all the biggest favour in ww2. we will be for ever in their debt morally.

I can't get enthusiastic about the common market. On balance I wish we were out of it.

I like some things. we would never have got rid of corporal punishment in schools without them. they are more humane than we are.

But they are missing when its backs to the wall time. unsympathetic. like when we were going through shit over Northern Ireland. they couldn't get their heads round it. it was all yahboo sucks time.

did anyone in Europe help like Clinton did. he was a better ally. like wise this bloody mess over in Calais. This is the country that knocked the Paris riots on the head in three days. You can't tell me thay couldn't keep better order of the situation if they wanted to. but its easier to fuck us around.


then theres the business of the fishing. The spanish have fucked up the waters round their own coast, which once were as fecund as ours used to be before they got going with their environmentally idiot methods. okay not many of us fish any more. but is it intelligent to to let them continue in this idiotic way.

by all means drive on the same side of the road as everyone else. I'm all in favour of tokenism that costs us nowt. but I see a lot of downright hostility in the actions of our european partners.   doesn't anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:42 AM

There's nowt like a nice bit of Sage Derby! When Sage Derby, or rather a Sage Cheddar masquerading as S-D, arrived on the cheese counters where I live in Germany, the reactions of shoppers was quite interesting- "Yeuch, green cheese-must be bad!" There was a similar reaction when I took a chunk to a party- by the end of the evening almost all of it had been eaten, to the accompaniment of comments like, "Hey, this cheese is really good!"

What 'hostility from our european partners'? Given the continueing demands from just about every british government for special conditions, exemptions, rebates etc. then it's hardly surprising that some european partners are feeling a little pissed-off with the UK. One should also bear in mind that UK ministries, particularly DEFRA, are very adept at re-translating texts from the EU to suit their prefered clientel/prejudices. Then of course there are the many EU financed/co-financed projects which, if left to HMG alone, would probably never have seen the light of day.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:08 AM

I've just found another reason to leave the EU. Compulsory telematics (spy boxes in private cars). But of course any con-servative government would want those too.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:33 AM

' Then of course there are the many EU financed/co-financed projects which, if left to HMG alone, would probably never have seen the light of day.'

i acknowledge the justice of what you're saying hereRichard. still don't you get the feeling with some places - the tories close down all the industry and then europe gives the town square a makeover.

it feels weird.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:43 AM

I did not put that argument - any more than I think that Scumeron offering to build new prisons in Jamaica is a just reparation for England's contributions to slavery.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 06:01 AM

Hi

I'm for staying in. Mind you I do have a second home in Spain.
Al I know what you mean about the Spanish fishermen. But we get the best of it when they land their catches there. Yummy

And as for cheese give me fresh Cheshire any time.( Although we do like French and Italian ones too)

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 09:18 AM

When it came to beating the Nazis, it was the Russians who did the heavy lifting. Al, but the gratitude for that evaporate pretty quickly. Not without good reason, but to some extent that applies to the Amaricans as well.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:04 PM

and when it comes down to fighting fascism all of europe should be ashamed at how we let down the spanish

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:07 PM

does anyone who supports uk leaving the european union have any worries about our being dominated by the usa?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:13 PM

Not sure, achmelvich. Becoming the 51st state would be a worry for me but I am not sure whether it is a real possibility or not. Maybe someone better versed in international relations could advise?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:19 PM

If we became a province of China - would that mean cheaper guitars and FX pedals...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:09 PM

if we became Americans we would all have the right to buy guns. it would be a whole new market for them. if they've sold each other 300 million guns - we could buy 60 million, one each.

it surprising they haven't suggested it.

no need to bother with the national health service - we wouldn't believe in socialised medicine.

sounds great!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:31 PM

Achmelvich - yes, and yes, in that order. But right now TTIP will deliver further into the hands of feral US capitalism. It is a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:14 AM

Yes definitely, it is a gigantic and expensive con.

Mr Farage for prime minister!