BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi

Subject: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:14 AM

I wrote to The Times this morning about report on the English grandfather liable to punishment for alcohol possession in Saudi Arabia as follows:

Of course the Foreign Office must bend every effort to saving that old toper in Saudi from his 350 lashes. But it seems to me very wrong to accept gainful employment in another country and then behave in a manner contemptuous of its laws, of which one must be fully aware. Those who can't do without their inebriative fix just shouldn't accept the job. Having alcohol in Saudi Arabia, apart from anything else, displays filthy manners towards one's host. It may not deserve flogging; but it certainly deserves contempt.

Opinions?

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Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: vectis
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:01 AM

I used to work for an oil company and we were forever shipping wine and beer kits to the guys in the American compound. Most of it got through. If you wanted to party you had to invite the Police chief or you got busted. This chap was either careless or unlucky, he should have carried his wine in a thermos flask instead of a bottle.

I like a drink and used to smoke so refused a posting to Saudi. End of that job...

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:37 AM

I agree that it is unwise to take work in a country whose laws you would be liable to break. I vehemently disagree with your characterisation of the man as an old toper with filthy manners who was alcoholic. It's intemperate and judgemental and quite likely incorrect in detail. I don't care if the Times prints your letter. It's a filthy rag owned by a foreigner in this country who cynically oversaw the breaking of our laws by his employees. Spot the irony.

I'm not going to judge the old boy like you do. Yesterday I had to drive at 90 on the A30 to catch a very early train. I got away with it. There's a big pile of cast-out beams just outside my back door.

But I question whether we should have any dealings at all with a regime that publicly beheads or crucifies hundreds of people a year, often for things that wouldn't even be crimes here, and their lashings are also barbaric. We should tell the antediluvian buggers where to get off until they clean up their act. Oh, I forgot. Our weapons of mass destruction industry would suffer badly if we did that....

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:40 AM

Oh, by the way, the A30 is a dual carriageway and there was hardly any traffic. See, you've got me feeling guilty now.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:10 AM

Sorry to have done so, Steve. But I feel you are being your, somewhat customary, devil's-advocate stirrer-upper. Your excuses for that (I reiterate in ♠♠) filthy-mannered incurably addicted old sod do not bear comparison with your own oh-so-reprehensible iniquities with regard to the traffic laws.

So speed on; and I hope it keeps fine for you [& brings you some fines in the bargain!].

Best ≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:18 AM

I agree 100%, BTW, with your opinions on the Saudi regime & our relations with it; & have often written to that effect on this forum. But that still doesn't excuse the guy's having taken service with it, in full cognisance of the conditions they would employ him under, & then failed to observe them. He arguably deserves his smacked ɷ for being so bloody silly as well as so copulatory rude.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:42 AM

I agree that he was foolish. I do not agree with barbaric laws that put old men in jail for over a year for possessing small amounts of home brew alcohol. I think it's OK to hold those two views simultaneously. Keeping sanctions in proportion with the transgression is not easy, but I'm damn sure that what was done to him overstepped the bounds of reasonableness by a massive factor. As a matter of fact, the Saudis are applying a law of their religion to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, which is plain wrong, in the same way that those religious anti-abortionists wish to apply their intemperate notions to everyone, not just those belonging to their faith. But he was indeed a silly man.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:15 AM

Nothing in the least disrespectful about ignoring silly and oppressive laws. It can be risky, more especially in countries which are liable to enforce those laws brutally.

There is evidently a fair amount of iillegal drinking in Saudi Arabia, both among ex-pats and locals. Here is a BBC article about it

I assume the Times will have dealt appropriately with that letter.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:24 AM

Seeing as how Saudi now chairs the UNHRC they will provide a shining example to the rest of the world on the finer points of the practice of human rights, by Allah.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:57 AM

Steve -- You can keep as many views simultaneously as your pretty ickle head will hold; but it's entirely beside the point whether you 'agree' with any particular laws. If you choose to enter the jurisdiction where they apply, then you had better keep them whether you 'agree' or not, or be prepared to take the consequences: hadn't you?

Simples wotwotwot!

≈M≈

Mind you, I am sure the Saudis must be trembling in their boots [or sandals or whevs] at the thought that they have laws with which the gr8 Shaw disagrees!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:12 AM

Of course. That doesn't stop me commenting on the inappropriateness and brutality of the regime's sanctions for matters that you and I wouldn't even remotely consider to be crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:21 AM

350 lashes....thats a lot

they'll probably do the mascara wrong as well

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:28 AM

Nothing in the least disrespectful about ignoring silly and oppressive laws
.,,.

Disagree profoundly, Kevin. In going to live in a country you make an implicit contract to respect its laws and customs. Failure to do so is, accordingly, 'disrespectful' in more than one sense. If you find the laws of your adoptive home intolerably "silly & oppressive", you were best to stay away. If you go there because [as in the case especially of Saudi, as is well known] you can earn better salary there than elsewhere, then this advantage comes at a certain price. There is an unpleasant whiff of "wanting your cake & eating it" in the attitude adopted by you & Steve here [as well as by that unmannerly abuser of his host country's hospitality], it seems to me.

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Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:52 AM

How many times do I have to say that I think the man was foolish before you take off your blinkers, Michael? What do you suppose I mean when I say that?

There are times when confronting bad laws on principle is appropriate. It was appropriate to refuse to pay the poll tax. It's appropriate to protest against nuclear weapons by chaining yourself to a perimeter fence. I don't think the old boy was taking a stand against a bad law. I think he was trying to get round it, a bit like me and my haste on the A30 yesterday. There is a difference. He was a bit of an idiot for risking it. Are you happy now? If you think that there's an unpleasant whiff about a fellow who furtively tries to possess a bit of home brew, think of the whiff coming from hundreds of public beheadings carried out every year. We're revolted to the rafters, rightly so, when ISIS do it a couple of times a year. But the Saudis? Well, the oil and WMDS appear to make us set aside all our principles, don't they? Anyway, back to your letter-writing. The Times, eh? What's that I smell...

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:11 AM

It is prudent to obey silly and even oppressive laws, but "respecting" those laws is another matter.

It's a slippery word, "respect". We should treat everybody with respect, including those for whom we might quite properly not feel any respect.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:34 AM

But the laws against alcohol are, arguably at least, not 'bad' laws in the sense that you seem to me to be using the term, Steve. Within the context of a nation which explicitly bases its laws upon a specific version (Sharia) of the basic teachings of its state religion, they are laws which should be respected and kept by any who place themselves within their jurisdiction. There is no comparison with ill-judged measures like the poll tax -- tho I would dispute vociferously your asseveration that refusal to pay it was in any way "appropriate"; and the policy of developing and maintaining nuclear weapons to which some took active objection was not a matter of 'law' at all, but of a policy adopted by the government: no Act of Parliament was ever passed saying There Shall Be Nuclear Weapons, you know.

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Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:45 AM

Nothing in the least disrespectful about ignoring silly and oppressive laws.

Therein lies the road to anarchy.

I think that the restrictions on Sunday trading are silly but I don't expect the major supermarkets and high street stores to ignore the law. Many people think that the laws against the use of cannabis are oppressive but it remains illegal. The consumption of alcohol is legal in our country but, while the moderate consumption of alcohol is tolerated, even encouraged in some cases, the misery of alcohol abuse is still plain for all to see.

The prohibition on the consumption of alcohol in Saudi Arabia is well known. It is not some obscure, quaint local custom that someone may accidentally fall foul of. Anyone who can't live with it should stay away.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:52 AM

How did the hapless old secret boozer get caught ?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:57 AM

Unfortunately for that argument, it is not difficult for the influential and the wealthy to get pissed in Saudi, even if you're a Saudi. The laws the Greenham women were breaking were to do with causing obstruction/criminal damage. As for the evils of alcohol, most people who consume alcohol do so responsibly. Most people who drive cars do not going around killing other road users, though some do. That is not a reason to ban all cars. The Sunday trading and cannabis laws are replete with grey areas. Calling them silly is controversial. If I went to Saudi Arabia for any reason I would keep all their laws. But that would not be because I respect those laws. It would be because I don't want to be thrown into a stinking jail, get lashed or have my head cut off in front of a crowd. In my view, that's a pretty poor reason for having laws.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 11:45 AM

If I went to Saudi Arabia for any reason I would keep all their laws. But that would not be because I respect those laws. It would be because I don't want to be thrown into a stinking jail, get lashed or have my head cut off in front of a crowd. In my view, that's a pretty poor reason for having laws.

But it has the desired effect,ie you wouldn't break those laws.
If there was only a fine would you ignore the law?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 11:53 AM

What about the British Embassy, are the diplomats allowed to get as pissed as they like
as long as the booze is smuggled in concealed in diplomatic bags
and only consumed inside the official compound.

If so, and it's not strictly illegal, what's to stop them opening a bar on the premises for Brit ex pats ?

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 11:59 AM

Unfortunately for that argument, it is not difficult for the influential and the wealthy to get pissed in Saudi, even if you're a Saudi.

It is not difficult for the influential and the wealthy to avoid paying tax but the rest of us have to put up with it. The fact that some can find loopholes does not justify ignoring the law.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:07 PM

This is really about the proportionality of the punishment to the crime. Whilst boozing in a booze-free country is a transgression (I bet every drinker in these countries does it though), 300 lashes and a year in clink is not a fitting punishment to the crime. They coupled simply deport him, fine him or whatever but the the Saudi's insist on very harsh punishments; this is the way their system works.

So if they want foreign expertise in their country they should understand the cultural differences and make allowances for them. But they won't, because they realise the UK is:

a) too weak
b) loves their money
c) doesn't give a shit about their nationals getting mistreated by their customers

At least we know the tories are a bunch of morally corrupt corporate shills willing to kowtow to these bloodthirsty goons, and if any of us suffer a similar fate we'll be left in the lurch too.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: mayomick
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:09 PM

I hope the Times doesn't publish MGM's letter. He makes two points : firstly the old toper doesn't deserve to be flogged , secondly he shouldn't have been drinking alcohol because it's against the host country's law .Both points are valid and good ones to make on this forum. But the risk is that Saudi authorities reading The Times-which they do- would ignore MGM's first point and use his second point to justify the cruel sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:33 PM

That's my point, Stu.

"But it has the desired effect,ie you wouldn't break those laws.
If there was only a fine would you ignore the law?"

Well we used to hang people for stealing a sheep. To take your point to its logical conclusion, why don't we have automatic hanging for every crime? That would certainly have the "desired effect" of abolishing crime, wouldn't it?

As a matter of fact there are many offences that there are only fines for that I never commit. I don't drop litter in the street, defecate in back alleys or fly-tip. I never park my car where I'm not supposed to. I don't ride my bike on the pavement or drink alcohol in the street in zones where it's not allowed. I don't need to be threatened with terrible punishments or death in order to refrain from those things. The law is not there to assume that we are all evil bastards who need summary execution hanging over us. It's there to promote a civilised society.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:35 PM

The Times publish only a minute %age of the letters they receive. I've had quite a few in there in my time, but the odds are that they won't publish this one. If they should, however, I can't agree with mayomick's point that it would make things any worse.

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Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 12:44 PM

Well, as the Times comes from such a disreputable stable, I suppose they may well print it. You wouldn't have had a cat in hell's chance of getting it into the Guardian. Essentially, you referred to him pejoratively as an old toper (unnecessary ageism) and as an alcoholic (couldn't do without his inebriative fix), the latter an allegation founded on nothing at all except that he had some home-made wine. Well I've got far more bottles in my outhouse than he had and I'm not an alcoholic. Were the Times to publish that as their editorial opinion, your "old toper" would be able to sue.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:03 PM

Oddly enough, it was both The Times & The Guardian for which I wrote most frequently during 35 yrs as theatre and book and folk music critic -- several hundred reviews and features between 1968 & 2003. Quite a lot of letters too, for that matter. But I don't read Gdn any more, tho for many years I would take both papers, Times & Gdn, every day. I think you somewhat underrate the Gdn's letters policy tho, Steve. It would be a poor letters editor who would only print letters with which he & his paper were in ideological agreement.

He is an "old toper", at that, in the sense of obviously being an addicted one of long standing, so habituated & dependent that he can't do without his alcoholic fix. And I am not likely to commit ageism at my time of life, you know. I'm a lot older than that old alky is You're a well·meaning fellow in general, Steve; but very occasionally come over as just a tad not-rite-brite!

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Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:09 PM

As a matter of fact there are many offences that there are only fines for that I never commit. I don't drop litter in the street, defecate in back alleys or fly-tip. I never park my car where I'm not supposed to. I don't ride my bike on the pavement or drink alcohol in the street in zones where it's not allowed. I don't need to be threatened with terrible punishments or death in order to refrain from those things. The law is not there to assume that we are all evil bastards who need summary execution hanging over us. It's there to promote a civilised society.
So you obey those laws because you consider they lead to a civilised society.
If you chose to obey them the punishment be it fine or flogging is of no consequence to you.
Floggings are a punishment for the criminal and a warning to others. Some people only respond to such threats.
They are not as socially aware as you are.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

A man freely chooses to work in a country which he knows full well has strict laws on the consumption of alcohol and the penalties for so doing.

He breaks the law and gets caught.

Stupid sod.

I wouldn't work in a country like Saudi Arabia, knowing the style of life I would have to leave - not for megabucks.

My choice - his choice.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

Punishment rarely figures in the decision to commit a crime. It would be a very stupid criminal indeed who thought he would get caught and went ahead anyway. Very few people are career criminals and most commit crimes on the spur of the moment, either believing that they will not get caught or that it does not matter anyway. Even if they do not get caught it is often the shock realising what they have done that prevents recidivism.

The Saudi Arabian authorities need to move into the 21st century if they expect to be treated as players in the modern world.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 01:54 PM

I agree, Will but that doesn't prevent the other strand to this discussion which was pretty inevitable, the barbarism of Saudi punishments.

I hate to present you with reality, Michael, but possession of booze does not make you an alcoholic.

"So you obey those laws because you consider they lead to a civilised society. "

I obey those laws because that's the way I've been brought up, basically. But when I take thought I can see that good laws are indeed all about promoting a free and fair society. Good laws can't also make us scared to death.

"If you chose to obey them the punishment be it fine or flogging is of no consequence to you."

Generally speaking, my behaviour is not informed by the law but by my instincts as to what I should or shouldn't be doing. Now that I've cleared that up, perhaps you'd like to tell us whether you're in favour of floggings, crucifixions and public beheadings. Whilst I suspect you're not, you write as if you are.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:07 PM

I take the point that's been made, Steve - and I agree wholeheartedly that the Saudi criminal justice system is barbaric. As are the criminal justice systems of many other countries.

Knowing that full well, I would not choose to work in any of those countries under any circumstances.

"Oh look - the river at this point is full of crocodiles."
"I'm going to cross the river here."
"Oh shit - I've lost a leg."

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:17 PM

So we build a nice bridge over that river. We stand on on the bridge and what do we see? Down it come ships bearing barrels of oil. Up it go ships full of WMDs. There are guys in the river getting their legs bitten off. They have no bloody right to get in the way of those ships!

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:50 PM

Of course I'm not in favour of such punishments,sadly Saudi is.
The man has lived there of his own free will for twenty odd years and was fully aware of what he was doing and the punishment.
In view of his age a heavy fine and deportation would be more appropriate.
The Saudi regime behave as they do because that is the way they were brought up, just as you do.
Until you can make them see the error of their ways any one who visits or lives in the country has to obey the present laws or leave if they don't wish to suffer the punishments for disobedience.
All societies change over time and become more tolerant,our own was as cruel as theirs little over a hundred years ago,we still have some way to go but we are getting there.They have further to go than us.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 02:52 PM

"hate to present you with reality, Michael, but possession of booze does not make you an alcoholic."
.,,.,.
Indeed not, Steve. But there would seem to me to be a certain degree of compulsion or dependency in insisting on possession in circumstances where it is known to be illegal, and where the possible penalties must be know. The community will not have forgotten previous such cases, of which I recall several, like that woman Penelelope Something & couple called Goldsmith, all sentenced to corp pun and only saved by diplo=manoeuvres, reported within the last dozen or so years. He knew the risks he ran -- must have done. So why did the silly sod have to have the stuff if not dependent to at least some degree? Or else indulging in silly perverse games like children who play up to see how far they can go before a spanking descends.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:08 PM

"Until you can make them see the error of their ways"
.,,.
There is, is there not, a certain degree of Euro-centricity involved in this formulation. They don't think their ways are erroneous; they are following the teachings and injunctions of their Prophet, and consider your/our ways erroneous. Who do you/we think you/we are to try to make them "see" any such thing!

But one can get very confused trying to live up to such empathetic and relativist values, can't one!

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Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:32 PM

So, as I see it: -

He is old.

I am not aware of any evidence that he was an alcoholic.

I am not aware that the Saudi regime was in any way his "host" nor indeed that he entered into any "contract" to obey their laws.

He is liable to the penalty prescribed by law - even if in venal and corrupt Sordid Arabia many with money and power get away with many things.

The existence of the law is a matter for Saudi jurisprudence.

The penalty handed down in this case is inhuman - but about what I expect of insane theocratic despots. Human Rights committee my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:33 PM

PS - I also see no evidence of rudeness.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:49 PM

Interesting article from the BBC explaining the drink culture and risks involved. There is alcohol readily available in a lot of places and the Saudi authorities turn a blind eye when it suits them. There is something political afoot here rather than it being the simple case that some would have us believe.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:49 PM

"PS - I also see no evidence of rudeness. " -- R Bridge

.,,.,..,

Should have gone to Specsavers...

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:51 PM

The man obviously, from past ex-pat employment, knew the crime.

Cabs are cheap...and so are private drivers.

He was flaunting arrogance before the local law.

He was wrong.

Virtually every viral/bacterial medication is available OTC in all the Arabian states. They will try to cure ANY disease.

Addiction is a VICE.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

USA prisons are being emptied...to make room for those incoming fools that beleive THC is legal in every state.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:03 PM

'nor indeed that he entered into any "contract" to obey their laws.'
.,,.

I should have thought that taking up residence in any jurisdiction would imply entering into a contract to obey its laws.

If a foreign visitor breaks our laws, would you not expect some adverse reaction from our authorities, Richard?

I believe you are a lawyer by profession. May I have your professional opinion as to whether that would indeed in all likelihood be the case, please?

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Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,#
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:34 PM

Might be worth it to combine this thread with the following.

thread.cfm?threadid=158340&messages=2

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:19 PM

"If a foreign visitor breaks our laws, would you not expect some adverse reaction from our authorities, Richard?"

I certainly would. And I might expect those who wallow in self-defined erudition to not write vacuous letters to their scurrilous newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:54 PM

Partly one shouldn't flout local laws when a guest abroad, partly locales should not have biblical laws in this day and age. The combo here means that poor old guy is, probably, going to be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:29 PM

These are not biblical laws. I am not sure what they might be derived from. They are barbaric in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Bert
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:09 AM

When I worked in Saudi, drinking by expats was overlooked if they kept it quiet. So we used to get drunk in our own homes, but didn't go out on the street in that condition. We couldn't buy real liquor so we bought moonshine called sidiqui.

If we wanted proprietary liquor, about the only way to get it was to arrange a meeting with a Saudi contractor who would always have a bottle of whiskey available.

At that time, people who got caught were shipped home on the next plane.

Why that didn't happen in this case I don't know. It is probably due to some diplomatic failure.

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 03:19 AM

My sister and her husband spent a year in Egypt in 2011-2012 - her husband had a Fulbright appointment to teach at the University of Alexandria. I spent almost three weeks visiting them, and it was perhaps the most interesting three weeks of my life.

There were lots of UK and US expats in Cairo, and they were the target of much derision from Americans and Brits who tried to blend with the culture of Egypt. The expats worked hard to isolate themselves from Egypt. They had their own clubs and restaurants and stores. One wonders why they wanted to be in Egypt, since they isolated themselves so totally from Egypt.

There were other things that just didn't seem appropriate in Egypt, like the woman in the stunning minidress in the Egyptian Museum - what was she thinking? Oh, another interesting phenomenon were the wealthy Saudis we'd see all over, dressed in their snow-white garb and spending money like water. My sister said wealthy Saudis went to Egypt because Egypt was so much less restrictive than what they had back home.

Beaches were interesting, too. There were lots of men in Western-style swim trunks, but very few women. The women wore what were called "burkinis" no skin left uncovered.

To me, it seems strange to want to stand out in a foreign culture.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: expatriate drinkers in Saudi
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 05:42 AM

HiLo -- As I understand it, they are supposed by the particular faction that impose Sharia to derive from Koranic [Quranic if preferred] Surahs. Others, as I understand, claim that other Surahs elsewhere contradict these particular injunctions. But not being of the Islamic faith myself, my knowledge is necessarily hearsay & so a bit vague & imprecise. Has Mudcat any Muslim members who could help elucidate what is required by the various factions of their Faith?

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