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Subject: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:33 AM i had the jab last saturday - now i really feel like shit. i have one every year. but some years - it has this dreadful reaction within it. anyone else affected? |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Kampervan Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:38 AM Had one two weeks ago. Felt a bit snuffly the next day with a bit of a sore throat, but it only lasted 24 hours. Never had flu and hoping that I never will, so I figure the jab is worth getting. K/van |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:59 AM perhaps you're someone who wouldn't get the flu anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Jack Campin Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:03 AM Current flu vaccines contain squalene, a non-specific immunostimulant that enhances the response to the virus antigens. I have a rare, mild auto-immune condition which I would rather not have exacerbated into something worse, so I'm not about to let anybody non-specifically stimulate my immune system. (I'd have no issue with the kind of vaccine used 5 years ago, but you can't get it any more). |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:18 AM squalene - that's a shark, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Megan L Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:25 AM I don't see the point in the jab if I catch influenza either I will get better or I will die, if I get better then there is nothing to worry about and if I die I wont be around to worry so why bother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST,MikeL2 Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:53 AM Hi Al My wife and I have been having flu jabs for a good few years now. Before having the jabs I used to suffer from very bad colds all winter and on 2 occasions I contacted Flu, one the Asian version which knocked me out over the Xmas & New year. Since having the jabs I don't get anywhere near as many colds and certainly they are less intense than previously. Pleased to say that I haven't had Flu either. I have no effects immediately after the jabs. My wife though like you does feel rough for about 24 hours and has the sniffles for about a week. Our friend who we went on holiday with last week had his jab on Thursday and he is feeling rough too. Regards Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST,Woodrow Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:41 AM Ahhhh, my wife developed rheumatiod arthritis, a chronic condition due to an extra strength flu shot. She has to take methotrexate for the rest of her life which inhibits her auto immune systen the fights off infections. So minor infections are more difficult to deal with. Flu shots are a gamble. The US govermnent passed PREPA, a law shielding the drug companies from liability after GWB was subjected to ritual defamation because of a vaccine shortage. If you research this you will find information that says vaccines won't cause RA but her doctor said the flu shot caused it. Not an adjuvant but the vaccine itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Mr Red Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:47 AM No reaction this year. Didn't jab last year. Year before, aching arm for most of the year, particularly dancing in the ballroom hold, (waltz hold if you do Irish Set). |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM Had mine a couple of weeks back and no reaction at all this year (it is not a live virus in the UK at least) except for a sore arm for a few hours two days later. I have been having mine for years and generally have no side effects. On the two occasions I did I think it coincidental I got cold like symptoms around the time I had had the injection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:12 AM i had a persistent cough within a day. now its deepened. my energy level is on the ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:38 AM I don't see the point in the jab if I catch influenza either I will get better or I will die uh-huh. And in the meantime, you'll infect others who may also die. Does that bring "the point" into better focus for you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Oct 15 - 10:48 AM The false associations, such as the story above about "rheumatiod arthritis, a chronic condition due to an extra strength flu shot" are wrong - coincidence at best. There is NO medical evidence that this is the case. Side effects are one thing, people often experience a couple of days of achiness or fever. This doesn't trigger diseases, but people look around for something to blame when they receive a traumatic diagnosis and proximity to an immunization is a popular scapegoat. Via a WebMD query: It's not uncommon to feel some soreness, redness or swelling in the area where you had the shot. It lasts 1-2 days. It's rarer, but, you may have a brief fever, feel achy all over, have a headache or feel tired for 1-2 days. One of my family members has some immunity issues (if you're missing a spleen you have one less tool to fight illness) and is supposed to get a flu shot every year. I do so also, to be less likely to infect that party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Oct 15 - 10:53 AM If you're in frequent contact with babies or old people, you should get the jab even if you are a healthy adult. Take responsibility not to vector something to the vulnerable. IMIO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM Or, of course and as posted above, the otherwise immunodeficient. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST,Peter Date: 17 Oct 15 - 11:13 AM Been on the "high risk" list since cardiac surgery five years ago. No side effects so far. if I catch influenza either I will get better or I will die Having been close to death I will stick with the alternative thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Megan L Date: 17 Oct 15 - 11:42 AM I was a first aid instructor and officer for over 20 years till I retired. If I catch anything that could be transmitted to other people I stay at home till I am fully recovered perhaps if other people did the same there would be less bugs going around. Does that bring "the point" into better focus for you? Peter been there and now the only person I loved is dead death holds no fears for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 15 - 11:46 AM Never miss it. Play the odds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Bill D Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:13 PM My health insurance pays for it... the office is 5 blocks away.... I get the jab, and have had no flu for 10 years. I'll sure play the odds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:54 PM yeh i sing in old peoples homes - so i get the jab, luckily i 've got a set of penicillin tabs hanging round the house. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:21 PM If I catch anything that could be transmitted to other people I stay at home till I am fully recovered... That's good of you, but since you were a first aid instructor and officer for over 20 years you know that you can still be a vector for transmission under those circumstances. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:25 PM Penicillin is not an antiviral, but an antibiotic. Absolutely no point in taking it for colds of flu (or subsets of flu). |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:33 PM thats what they say - but it works. thats why folks do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:14 PM thats what they say - but it works No, it don't. Placebo affect. Antibiotics are not antivirals, and no amount of "belief" will make it so. Perhaps this belongs on one of the creationist/religion threads? |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:24 PM Research what's in the jabs - you won't want it then! We use a homoeopathic prophylactic combination: thymuline & influenzium. Week 1: Thymuline 6 Week 2: Influenzium 6 |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:28 PM Yup, guest, and them injectilizations will cause yer ter be autisticival, too, dontcha think?? HOMEOPATHIC? That's a joke, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:32 PM Homeopathic - research what isn't in it and you won't want it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM Er, Mike, the flu jab in no way can protect you against colds. As we get older, we catch colds less often because we've already had most of the strains of the virus. Once you've had a strain, you can't get that one ever again. The flu jab hasn't been particularly effective in recent times. It shouldn't do you any harm, though anecdotal evidence suggests that it makes some people poorly for a while. I've had real flu three times in my life. As I'm in quite good nick generally, I'm predicting that a dose of flu won't see me off. I might change my mind as I get older and more feeble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:02 PM Prince Charlie goes in for homeopathic remedies. That's bad enough for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:44 PM If I catch anything that could be transmitted to other people I stay at home till I am fully recovered perhaps if other people did the same there would be less bugs going around. One can be infected with the influenza virus and transmit it to others without having symptoms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:43 PM If I'd stayed at home every time I had a cold when I was a teacher, I'd have been sacked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:35 PM I avoid all doctors. I will perhaps, get the influenza innoculation....when I become old, feble and i firm like you Mr. Whittle. Do not get me wrong....I am gladly immunized for: Phénomène Yellow Fever Thyphus Cholera Polio Tetnus Hep A and B It is my opinion...and studied belief... a full fledged, eight to ten bout of influenza, will make you permanentl, for life, immune to THAT particular strain of the virus." Therefore, it is better to reap the harvest while young and in good health. The current innoculations are a yearly "red space / black space" spin on the roulette wheel of infectious disease. I always carry Tamaflu, by Gilead for if a flu fever spikes...and Cipro for secondary. Sincerely, Gargoyle Its time to start drawing up the "ghoul list" for 2016 |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:25 PM Sadly, the flu virus is a bit too good at mutating. Bloody Darwin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:55 AM www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0010949/ Cochrane Reviews www.vox.com/2015/10/14/9521807/flu-shot-vaccine-effectiveness Summary of Cochrane In adults, however, the vaccine's effects are more modest. "Depending on the season," explained Tom Jefferson, an author on these Cochrane reviews, "you need to vaccinate anywhere between 33 and 100 people to avoid one set of symptoms." In a good year, when the WHO guesses correctly and the flu shot matches the strains in circulation, you need to give 33 adults flu shots, on average, to prevent one case of illness. In a tsar when the WHO guesses badly, you need to vaccinate 100 people to prevent one flu case. Sincerely, Gargoyle |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST,MikeL2 Date: 18 Oct 15 - 05:20 AM Hi Steve I don't know about the medical situation or your statement about we get less colds as we get older. For me my colds stopped after I had the jabs....- co-incidence ? I don't think so. Getting older .....er yea....actually it's my birthday today , so there's another year gone. Regards Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 15 - 06:42 AM The viruses that cause flu and colds are completely different. Vaccines are not only specific to one virus, they are specific to individual strains unless they are combined. Whatever your experience, the flu jab did not stop your colds. Either you were lucky enough to avoid the strains of cold virus you haven't had yet or your immune system is in very good nick. Post hoc ergo propter hoc! |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:08 AM ' If I'd stayed at home every time I had a cold when I was a teacher, I'd have been sacked.' at last! we've tracked down the bugger who spread it round the staffroom! i find antibiotics very effective against infected throats that seem to come in the wake of colds flus etc. still if you still went to work - it couldn't have been that bad steve. quite a lot of people die every year from colds and flu. don't die! |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Mr Red Date: 18 Oct 15 - 10:01 AM One can be infected with the influenza virus and transmit it to others without having symptoms. received wisdom is that you are most infectious when the symptoms are least (or not) noticeable. Think about it, a hundred years of medicinal treatments has caused quicker evolution in viruses. The ones that work better are those that transmit in stealth mode. So they survived to proliferate. Apparently the human genome reveals that there was a shift in the genome at about the time of the Black Death, or possibly Bubonic Plague. The survivors conferred immunity to their offspring, or in scientific terms evolved. The warning is that viruses and bacteria evolve faster than humans, and a damn sight faster than medicated humans. I jab! |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 18 Oct 15 - 12:33 PM Having mine tomorrow. Had flu a couple of years back and, believe me, any minor symptoms that come with the jab are a hundred times more preferable to the flu itself! |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:00 PM Well it's true that germs can evolve faster, partly because their generation turnover is faster, but there are complications with the way they reproduce...can o' worms there...it's quite likely to be natural selection allowing resistant strains that might have already been present to take over. Remember ye olde peppered moth from school - the black ones didn't evolve as a result of pollution, they were already there in low numbers before the big smoke, but the change in conditions suddenly gave them selective advantage. So the story goes, but who was that bloke who fiddled the results...science, eh? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Jeri Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:23 PM People are not born with lifetime immunity to plague (Yersinia pestis). Antibacterials can be effective on bacterial complications, but not viruses. When people take them on their own until they feel better, that's what leads to antibacterial resistant strains. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:49 PM well we can agree about that Dave. flu is dreadful. i need to get rid of this quick - i've got a load of gigs coming up starting saturday. these reactions have been horrible i was aching for three days and i've still got a cough. i wish you better luck with your jab! |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 18 Oct 15 - 02:51 PM Thanks, Al, much appreciated. Dunno if it is psychological but I find vitamin C a big help getting rid of stuff like coughs and colds. Try the 1000Mg (Is that 1g? I think it is) fizzy vit. C supplements. They taste quite nice too :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 15 - 03:27 PM Throw them away. You just excrete the excess, which is nearly all of it, and it may well give you bellyache to boot. It's ascorbic ACID, remember. Cut out the middleman and throw them down the bog! |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Oct 15 - 03:23 AM Must be psychological then! You'll be telling me that holy water doesn't do any good next... :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: GUEST Date: 19 Oct 15 - 05:15 AM Linus Pauling thought vitamin C worked. He was a scientist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Oct 15 - 05:34 AM You got my hopes up then, Guest. Until the first thing I cam across on a Google search was The Dark Side of Linus Pauling's Legacy :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Mr Red Date: 19 Oct 15 - 07:51 AM vitamins and particularly C can be toxic. It all depends on dosage. I read in the New Scientist years ago that what we consider to be toxins do not exhibit a straightline graph of toxicity. Their effect often runs to the negative (ie beneficial) before curving upwards and crossing zero where we would consider the overall effect to be detrimental. Vitamin C and digitalis are obvious examples. So is that well known (medically that is) "depressant" called alcohol. You can die of alcohol poisoning, that is why we might vomit when imbibing heavily. FWIW it is reckoned: bubonic plague & black death still exist but have evolved to be more parasitic rather than deadly. Because the human survivors also carried a level of immunity, genetically. E. Coli 0157 has become serious because it was either: around but propagated slowly and was out competed by milder strains of E. Coli which were less devastating or it has evolved to withstand the sanitising agents we use on farms & in shops etc. The thing about 'flu jabs is that they are vaccines, they prime your immune system. Anti-biotics kill bacteria, mostly. Ever had diarrhea after penicillin? It kills a lot, including the good bacteria. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Oct 15 - 09:02 AM Well, that's me stabbed good and proper. No going back now. I'll keep you updated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: flu - to jab or not to jab? From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Oct 15 - 09:18 AM "Linus Pauling thought vitamin C worked. He was a scientist." Fred Hoyle believed in a steady state universe and he was a scientist. Isaac Newton was a scientist and he believed in alchemy. I know how tempting it is, but don't assume that scientists always get it right. |
