BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Kampervan
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 12:02 AM

I totally agree with many of the people posting above who have reservations about wearing a poppy, especially in light of the way that it has almost become 'unpatriotic' to be seen without one at this time of year.

It seems that, despite the ever increasing interest in remembrance day, we (or our leaders) are incapable of actually learning any lessons.

But despite this, one way or another, we must honour the memory of those who died, and the best way of doing that is to demonstrate that we have learned from their sacrifices and put more emphasis on avoiding adding to the ranks of those damaged by war.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 10:16 PM

We as
Re supposed to lay a lot of attention to wwl. That is why we have the holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:32 PM

I'll stick a quid in the poppy man's collection tin but he can keep the bloody poppy and sell it to somebody else. I hate the poppy-wearing pressure, I hate the auto-poppy brigade on the telly that we see weeks in advance and I hate the military pomp surrounding each Remembrance Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:14 PM

When people tell me, "Thank you for your service," I think I'd prefer the sentiments that Paul Burke expressed. I'm certainly one who joined the Army against my better judgment.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:43 PM

If I can find one, I intend to wear a white feather during the poppy season, in commemoration (not celebration) of those many who joined the forces against their better judgement (whether as volunteers or conscripts) because of fear of social or legal consequences. And of course of those many who remained in the army for fear of legal consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:22 PM

BTW Charmion - I am sure you are right about the young being no more savvy than anyone else. I worded that incorrectly. The emphasis should have been that they are better informed than anyone else has been so should be more savvy. To quote another song, you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. At least I hope not :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:53 PM

The line from the article that struck me is this: The most fortunate in our society have turned the solemnity of remembrance for fallen soldiers in ancient wars into a justification for our most recent armed conflicts.

I was about to be drafted in 1970, and I couldn't bring myself to find any justification for the war in Vietnam. To keep out of that war, I enlisted for four years instead of the two-year draft, but then was released after three years of service. I got a guarantee of German training and assignment to Germany, and I ended up doing intelligence work in Berlin. I did good work, and I think it was worthwhile. I figure the more we know about our enemy, the less likely we are to end up in warfare.

So, I did my time, but I intentionally avoided the war. I can't say I have any particular pride in having served in the Army, but I think I did a good service for my country and learned a lot in the process.

Sometimes I'll wear a pin or a poppy to show I'm a veteran, but I'm conflicted about it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:47 PM

Charmion, may I congratulate you on two powerful posts.

That is exactly how I feel about modern society.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:08 PM

Sorry Caterpillar you're 10 years out.

The 200th anniversary of Trafalgar was in 2005 when British and French vessels "re-enacted" the battle.

The ship I used to be crew on took part as HMS Victory

Oh course being 2005 there were no "winners" or "losers"

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:58 PM

The simple fact that there was no special mention made of the 200th anniversary of Nelson's death at the battle of Trafalgar on 21th October makes me think that WW1 is relatively getting too much attention.
I can remember my great-grandmother, who met people who fought in the Napoleonic wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:32 PM

hope you're aware that quite a few of the powers that be are young themselves -- check out our new Prime Minister!

Young in years and young at heart are two different things and anyone who is, or wishes to be, prime minister is disqualified from being young at heart :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 02:49 PM

My dear Gnome, I hope you're aware that quite a few of the powers that be are young themselves -- check out our new Prime Minister! -- and have many hard lessons yet to learn. I disagree that they are savvier than we old gits; they were brought up on a steady diet of Tie A Yellow Ribbon 'Round the Old Oak Tree and PR photos of toddlers in the arms of soldier parents, always wearing Dad's (or Mum's) beret as they grin for the camera. If I never see that photo again, it will be too soon.

History teaches that every generation has to dree its own weird, and the wheel gets reinvented over and over; same shit, different day. Mr Obama swore with a whole heart to get America out of Afghanistan and to close Gitmo, and we know how that went. In 2006, Mr Harper swore that the Canadians would bring rule of law to Kandahar, but in 2011 we were glad to call it quits in that province after laying 19 kilometers of roadbed. In 2010, we deployed an air wing to the Med to join the NATO bombing mission in Libya in the hope of achieving "regime change" and witnessed the result; then, only four years later, the same gummint sends another air detachment off to bomb Syria. Amnesia, anyone?

Ah, crap. The kitchen floor needs washing, and I need to "changer les idees".

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:44 PM

I think we will be fooled again, and we will be horribly unprepared. Nevertheless, I will wear a poppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:24 PM

You beat me to it, gnu! The powers that be are trying their best to make sure young people never even know about it, let alone forget. Luckily the young are far more savvy than us, our parents and our grandparents. They have the benefit of global knowledge and can make up their own minds who to believe.

In the words Mr Daltry sings. We won't get fooled again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: gnu
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 12:58 PM

Very well said Charmion and Rap.

My uncle taught me that "Lest we forget." was not to remember the fallen SPECIFICALLY but, more so, was simply to remember "Let's not do that again."

RIP and thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 11:08 AM

Anything can seem noble and right if you're not the one being shot at.

As someone who has been shot at (and by people to whom I hadn't even been properly introduced!) I will remember the long list of those I knew who have paid, in one way or another, the final price: my youngest brother, Ted; Bob, my oldest friend; Doug, a high school chum; Larry, whose mother was my Cub Scout den mother and with whom I also attended high school and, like Doug, one with who I marched off to war...my father, my uncles on both sides, my grandmothers whose sons were taken off to fight, and the list goes on and on and on.

But I see no need to wear a poppy (although I will if I am given one) or an American flag pin, or much of anything else. Those who know me know and those that don't can either introduce themselves and be friends or can go...nevermind.

I believe it was one Decoration/Memorial Day weekend when someone from Utah stopped at my house and asked why I didn't have a flag out. Rather than giving him the response such a question deserved, I politely replied that I appreciate being reminded -- and placed the flags what had been on my father's and father-in-laws coffins and the (very small) box containing my own medals in the front window. He left mumbling apologies and quite, I hope, embarrassed.

War, which should be the very, very last resort, is far too important to be left to politicians. And as Robert E. Lee said, "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." And if war is needed, then it should be declared and everyone in the country involved. No more "resolution of Congress" or half-arsed actions such as that -- IF it is necessary for any nation to commit their troops, then it is necessary to commit the nation as a whole...and the leaders should be forced to visit the "bad winds" of military hospitals and front-line medical units...and the graves registration sections that are "up front."

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 11:04 AM

Huh?
I merely asked what you meant by, "the current fashion to re-write wars is wrong."

I was not aware it was a fashion issue.
I thought it history, which is evidence based not "fashion."

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 11:03 AM

DtG, the politicians and the press *always* peddle the current war as The Great Cause Of Our Time -- that's obvious from most cursory review of editorial cartoons, fund-raising posters, or any other type of ephemera you would care to mention going all the way back to the Napoleonic Wars.

Yes, it's morally dubious. In 1939, the enemy was Hitler and the confluct in view was indeed the Great Cause Of Its Time, and ever since, every Western government preparing to send its armed forces into harm's way has called up that spectre to justify its intentions. "In 1939, should we have stood idly by and let Hitler get away with it? Saddam has weapons of mass destruction! He gassed the Kurds!" And away we go ... or not; Canada sat that one out.

If the government could not paint the conflict in the colours of nobility and right, nobody would sign up to go, and we couldn't have that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:49 AM

Looks like it is not just Harry Leslie Smith's view either - Scroll down to comments.

Well said, Charmion. I would not, however, say the original point was solely about remembrance day though. I find the phrase Mr Smith uses - I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one's right to privacy. very significant. Maybe it is just me but the politicians and press selling war as something noble and right just seems wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:31 AM

The thought that article provokes in this veteran is "Build a bridge, buddy, and get over yourself."

Remembrance Day has always been political, whether we like it or not, because it is a sop thrown to the public by governments that spend not only our money but also our lives in pursuit of policies that may or may not do us any good. The proof of that pudding is in the eating, and in many cases we don't get a taste until long after the bills are paid.

As we get older and edge into the third (or fourth, or even fifth) acts of our lives, we have to come to terms with the fact that those younger than us, who are in the thick of the Big Drama of their lives, make up the bulk of the population, and they don't think like us and their consequent actions sometimes strike us as awkward or inappropriate.

I am sixty-one years old and a veteran of the Cold War. My husband is fifty-eight and still serving, with a rack of medals from NATO and UN deployments. Both of us are the children of Second World War veterans, brought up in post-war British garrison culture. We both find today's version of Remembrance Day kinda strange; for example, it jolts me to hear applause from the crowd as the veterans' contingent marches by the National War Memorial, and the practice of depositing poppies on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier strikes me as both sentimental and untidy.

But the applause seems natural to people in the crowd because they see themselves as members of an audience, whereas I think of them as participants in the ceremony, like the congregation in church. The poppies on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are put there by people who think it a gracious gesture, like the bouquets I saw thrust between the bars of the fence around the U.S. Embassy on 12 September 2001, or the teddy bears deposited at the site of an incident in which a child has died. It's not something I would do because it strikes me as undignified.

But it's not about me. Back in the 70s, when you could fire a shotgun across Confederation Square on Remembrance Day and not harm a soul, that wasn't about me, either, although I was freezing my feet on the concrete, or about my Dad, on parade among the naval veterans. Now, when a total stranger wants to buy my husband a coffee in Tim's (much to his embarrassment), that's not about him; he's just the soldier who is physically present when some random nice guy feels the prick of obligation and chooses that way of acting on it. He graciously accepts because to do otherwise would make the random nice guy feel bad.

We happen to be in a time of "better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all" -- a period when civilians are feeling a prick of shame at what some military personnel have endured and how rough their lives can become as a result. It would be nice if that shame could be translated into effective support services for those disabled by PTSD, but I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:22 AM

Guest. Exactly who is it that is in good company?

Keith. I am not even going there. This thread is not about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:18 AM

Yo, Professor: how about you keep your ignorance of WW I to yourself this time around? Or are you going to ruin this discussion too?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:13 AM

Why not discuss the content of the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:08 AM

the current fashion to re-write wars is wrong.

What fashion?
Do you mean history?

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:01 AM

You're in good company: @Abu_Sayfillaah

Subject: RE: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 08:47 AM

Certainly thought provoking.

Subject: BS: Why a veteran is not wearing a poppy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 08:21 AM

At the risk of starting another war I link this 2 year old piece from The Guardian.

I wish I had seen it before. When some of the previous flame wars were occurring. It explains far better than I can why I believe the current fashion to re-write wars is wrong.