BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 09:11 PM

As usual, Hi, you missed the whole point. Rock on.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:39 PM

I knew you were not are renowned educator Greg. I just thought you might have something constructive to say since you were asking about history books!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:12 PM

I'm not a renowned educator and expert like you, the Professor and Terrabyte, Hi. I'll leave it all up to you three to set the world right.

By the way, which real bookstores are YOUR works available in? You've only fulfilled one of the Professor's many criteria so far by being alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:19 PM

Which ones would you suggest Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM

the findings of the history books and the professionals

Which history books and which professionals, Professor?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:15 PM

So this is why wars last so long eh?

Nothing to see here. Perhaps the inter web is only good for porn after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:58 PM

Guest, what is your source for this information. I have found no source that supports it, Dave, can you comment on my response to your comments about the bias of historians. I would be curious to know what Historians you have read and are speaking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:32 PM

Perhaps we can get her out of Silent Witness to find out how so many of our officers managed to be shot in the back?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:27 PM

Keith I am not saying WWII was good, no war is good. But the consequences of defeat in WWI would have been much more marginal, except for the ruling elites. Defeat in WWII would have been disasterous for a number of minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:46 PM

With regard to the most important thing if engaged in an all out war, a global conflict, I suggested that the most important thing is that you win it but from Guest Dave we get this muddled nonsense that contradicts itself:

"The most important thing is the welfare of your citizens. This is far more important than whether you win or not."

Here comes the qualification and the contradiction

"You can argue in some cases, such as the war with Nazi Germany, or a possible war with ISIS (I am still far convinced that there is such a war) that your citizens welfare would suffer so much in the event of defeat that victory would be imperative."

Followed by this piece of idiocy born from complete and utter ignorance and astonishing arrogance:

"In other cases, not so, I would argue that WWI was a case where it was not so."

Let me see care to tell us all how you can tell in advance of a war which case applies? You'd need to be psychic wouldn't you?

Listen to this from Jom and tell me if you can see how idiotic it is:

"It [The First World War] was an Imperialist war brought about by right wing politics.

World War two was brought about by extremist right wing politics driven by a desire for world domination, added to which was a crusade to wipe out an entire people because of their religious beliefs and cultural background."

OK so the First World War was a war of Empires practically all the 1914 combatants were imperial in one form or another some fought to increase their Imperial power by conquest, others fought to preserve their empires. Jom seems to believe it was brought about by right wing politics - he's wrong of course but no-one will ever convince him of that so I see no point in trying.

Now onto the Second World War again caused by right wing politics according to Jom, but if it was driven by a desire for world domination doesn't that by it's very nature (i.e. world wide domination) make it an imperial war? Can you dominate the world without imperial pretensions? This bid for domination by Germany in WWII was like the bid for imperial expansion by Germany in WWI to be achieved by aggression and conquest.

So tell me Dave how come WWII is GOOD whereas WWI was BAD? The wealth, security and safety of the way of life enjoyed by everyone in Europe and everyone in the British Isles was as much under threat in 1914 as it was in 1939 and oddly enough the respective governments in power at the time read it clearly and correctly and thankfully acted accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:34 PM

Dave said,
I rate their(historians') opinions as moot (because they were not there).

The people who were there agreed .

I am not arguing about history. I am arguing about deaths.

You are arguing about history. The issues are historical, and intensely researched.

You reject the findings of the history books and the professionals who research and write them, believing you somehow know more about it.
That is an enormous conceit, and a delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:39 PM

Apologies for bad spelling, finger faster that brain these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:04 PM

That is a very good question Donuel. I would not advocate for History as a social science, or any other kind of science. But I would strongly recommend that anyone seriously contemplating the study of history enroll in a school that has a rigorous department of studies in historical research methods. I have taught a course of this nature and many students find it difficult at first, but once they become adept at recognizing their own biases and illiminating them, they find the research and writing of history much more satisfying.
I have a great respect for the study and research methods of Science, but I think that the study of science is quite different from the study of history, although there are some basic rules to be applied in the study any discipline.
What I often see in these threads are comments by people who really don't seem to read much history and perhaps do not understand that it is a discipline and how hard one must work at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

WHAT advice would you, (HiLo}, have for a young historian regarding scientific history advocates and their methodology?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:49 PM

As with politics , History may be better served as a discipline taught as Historical Science?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:38 PM

Dave, re your statement that historians tailors the facts to suit their prejudices and that you cannot name a historian who carries out his research in a scientific manner. You are wrong , very wrong about this. I have been both a teacher and a student of history for many years. I spent a lot of my time teaching students how to do meticulous historical research.
As I have said on other threads, historians may not be neutral, but they can be objective and for the most part, they are. It requires patience and discipline to achieve this and no historian that I have met has altered or twisted facts to suit a political or personal agenda. That is a sin often committed by "hobby" historians" who have not taken the time to do intensive research.
   
You cannot name an historian who carries out his research in a scientific manner ! I would be very interested to know what historians you have read and how you came to that sweeping and erroneous conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:50 AM

I leave you to wallow in your ignorance.

If only that were true...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:47 AM

In our free and safe world it may seem crazy to have to fight for anything.
They did not believe it safe to allow a cruel invader to prevail.
They still held to that belief through the times of maximum suffering and death, and to the end of the war and after.
You think they were wrong, but what is your opinion worth?
Apart from Ferguson, every historian has come to the conclusion based on informed hindsight that they were right.

Like all normal, intelligent people, I get my knowledge of history from the history books.
Yours comes from somewhere else, and you really believe you have a better understanding than those professionals!

That is why we can not agree.
Unless and until you can find anyone with actual knowledge who still believes your myths, I leave you to wallow in your ignorance.

Be assured, I have not confused the Daves.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:42 PM

Sacrifice is easy when sat in a comfy armchair in Hertford.

Tales of competence and understanding are hard to take in from a grave in a foreign land I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:29 PM

I am not arguing about history. I am arguing about deaths.

Very well put.

We are indeed different people, Guest Dave, but that is what I have been saying all along. To argue whether one man led people to their deaths is better than another man who led more people to their deaths is futile at best and heartless at worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:18 PM

Keith, I think you are confusing Daves, I am not DtG.

That statement would have been better stopped just prior to "Daves".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:58 PM

Keith, I think you are confusing Daves, I am not DtG.

Historians may indeed argue that victory in WWI was worth the losses in the trenches. However seeing as they were not the ones who died in the trenches, I rate their opinions as moot. I am not arguing about history. I am arguing about deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:54 PM

Dave, I am just going to discuss the issues.
If you have nothing more to add, why do you come here. A few days ago you just wanted it to stop!

I did indeed, Keith, and still do, but while you continue to misrepresent me and anyone else who dares to question you I am happy to put the other side of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:44 PM

Dave,
I would argue that WWI was a case where it was not so.

You are entitled to do so, but you would be arguing against the historians about history.
I would argue that makes you a fool.

You say you know of no historian capable of objective research.
You did not justify that strange claim. Do you know of any at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:39 PM

Dave, I am just going to discuss the issues.
If you have nothing more to add, why do you come here. A few days ago you just wanted it to stop!

Jim, I just defend the soldiers.
They did not invade and occupy foreign lands.
Theirs was a just war. That is also the considered opinion of the historians.

All the nations had empires, but Britain's fight was not imperial.
We would have kept out had Belgium not been invaded. No imperial motive.

You have denied or ignored the ruthless moral blackmail the trickery used to get men to enlist

So have Pennell, Macmillan, Paxman/OU just quoted on this thread.
You will find no historian who thinks there was any sigfnificant amount of what you imagine.

You have ignored or denied the cockups which caused thousands upon thousands of deaths.

Of course I have never denied mistakes were made.
A few commanders were incompetent. Most were not but they all had to learn an entirely new kind of warfare.

your insane jingoism
I am no jingo. You will find no jingoism in any post of mine.

I only ever defended three opinions.
Britain had little choice but to fight, the people accepted that, and the army was generally well and competently led.

I have supported each with unambiguous quotes from numerous historians.
YOU HAVE FOUND NONE THAT DISAGREE!

Unless and until you can, we have nothing to discuss.
Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:35 PM

The basis of MAD.

Winning can only be based on which became a glowing puddle first, Moscow or Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:48 PM

Teribus,

The most important thing is the welfare of your citizens. This is far more important than whether you win or not. You can argue in some cases, such as the war with Nazi Germany, or a possible war with ISIS (I am still far convinced that there is such a war) that your citizens welfare would suffer so much in the event of defeat that victory would be imperative. In other cases, not so, I would argue that WWI was a case where it was not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:11 PM

I too seem to be "you people" as well as "you twats" and even "Musktwat". Mind you, he called a post not by me a "Musktwat" the other day so presumably a knowledge of his dialect of Klingon might be useful. If he means Musket, I thought he or they post under their name? I don't for the very reason the trolls on here love to address the person rather than what they post.

There again, if I knew what he was on about I doubt I could understand him without professional commentary by a psychiatrist.

That post naming those who know better than others. Any chance of you doing it again Woodcock? It was truly bellyachingly funny 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:59 PM

They know full well who they are and referring to them as "you people" is a tad better than collectively referring to them as "you twats"

I have no idea, termibums. Enlighten us. Do bear in mind that Keith was talking about people who say they know something about the history of WW1. Who do you mean by 'you twats'? Remembering of course that either you or Keith have already determined that abuse is only used in the absence of reasoning...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:48 PM

"as I have described myself over and over again a humanist (small L) and a pacifist"

Thanks Jom – best laugh I've had today – a humanist with a small L eh – hilarious absolutely hilarious.
From the mouth of our tooth-sucking Anglophobe we also get this (Same post):

"It [The First World War] was an Imperialist war brought about by right wing politics.
World War two was brought about by extremist right wing politics driven by a desire for world domination, added to which was a crusade to wipe out an entire people because of their religious beliefs and cultural background."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:39 PM

"!I have only ever defended the British and Empire soldiers who fought and died in it
What a load of utter bollocks - the best yet
You have defended it as a just war
You have claimed it wasn't Imperialist
You have denied or ignored the ruthless moral blackmail the trickery used to get men to enlist
You have ignored or denied the cockups which caused thousands upon thousands of deaths.
Far from "defending the soldiers, whenever anything a soldier has said which contradicts your insane jingoism you have either directly called or implied that they are either "gullible " or "liars" - you have supported them in the way "a rope supports a hanging man".
You do this whenever you are confronted with the enormity of your behaviour - either deny you have said it, say you meant something else or blamed somebody for your opinions.
You have neither self respect, honesty or the courage of your convictions.
Ypor accusing Dave of "playing these games" is laughable - that is all you pair of clowns have done from day one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM

Ooooh an officer cook eh, Christ that'll really throw Jom out.

Patently a fact that you lot delight in warbling on about things you know S.F.A. about, then object when your glaring mistakes and omissions are pointed out.

Someone down the thread asked about the collective referred to as "you people"? They know full well who they are and referring to them as "you people" is a tad better than collectively referring to them as "you twats" which is undoubtedly what they are as can be determined by their behaviour on this forum.

Loved this one from one of our unknown and nameless contributors:

"Keith doesn't care about how many were killed. Keith cares that WE won." - GUEST - 06 Dec 15 - 03:36 PM

Hate to burst your bubble you complete and utter pillock but if you happen to be fighting in an all out global conflict THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU WIN IT If you have any problem grasping that concept then you really should never, ever be allowed to be unsupervised under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM

Ooooh an officer cook eh, Christ that'll really throw Jom out.

Patently a fact that you lot delight in warbling on about things you know S.F.A. about, then object when your glaring mistakes and omissions are pointed out.

Someone down the thread asked about the collective referred to as "you people"? They know full well who they are and referring to them as "you people" is a tad better than collectively referring to them as "you twats" which is undoubtedly what they are as can be determined by their behaviour on this forum.

Loved this one from one of our unknown and nameless contributors:

"Keith doesn't care about how many were killed. Keith cares that WE won." - GUEST - 06 Dec 15 - 03:36 PM

Hate to burst your bubble you complete and utter pillock but if you happen to be fighting in an all out global conflict THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU WIN IT If you have any problem grasping that concept then you really should never, ever be allowed to be unsupervised under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 11:14 AM

Ahhh - So, when you have no answer it is let us stop playing games, but when it suits you, you are more than happy to twist the words of others? Sorry Keith, doesn't work that way.

Yes, I do have a point to make about the issue under discussion. I made it very early on. It was to do with whether the armistice day events were Jingoism or Commemoration. It is easy to see what the issue under discussion should be. It is in the thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 11:09 AM

Dave, let's stop playing these games and just discuss the issues.
Do you have a point to make about the issue under discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 11:06 AM

Keith's obsessive defence of this horrific war certainly puts paid to his claim that he isn't a right-wing extremist

I have only ever defended the British and Empire soldiers who fought and died in it, and only by quoting historians, many left wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 11:02 AM

Keith -

1. Dave Gnome,
what 'the historians' say and parrots their texts ad nauseam

What the historians say is actually relevant to a discussion about history!
If you people could find an historian who agreed with you, you would do the same!

All the same point. You addressed me and then said 'you people'. How can that be anything other than referring to me?

2. Yes, OK. You have not used the 'you lose' comment on this thread. I am not one to hark back so I withdraw that.

3. The last point is pretty straight forward. You asked me to apologise for being unclear on what I meant. I did so. You have been equally unclear on a number of points but will not admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 11:01 AM

Jim,
Hastings has denied nothing else

Nothing else contradicts anything I have ever said about WW1.

Show me the bit that does.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:50 AM

"Dave, Jim has quoted the same bit of his Spectator review SEVEN TIMES IN THE LAST FEW DAYS."
And seven time you have called your historian a liar by claiming the review of his book does not represent his views, after his having welcomed it as fair, generous and accurate, with the exception of one conclusion - (that he hated the military) - Hastings has denied nothing else
Well worth repeating the review seven times more, as far as I'm concerned - and will do in the future should the opportunity arise.
"Just for the record I have never knowingly been a comrade."
Not sure what Keith means exactly by this - my dictionary gives three definitions
As far as I am concerned, if he means I am a member of a communist or socialist party - he is, as usual wrong - I have no political affiliation.
If he means I hold left wing views - he is, of course, correct to a degree - but as I have described myself over and over again a humanist (small L) and a pacifist, he once more ignores what people say when it suits him and makes it up as he goes along.
If he is claiming that it is left to think this war was a total waste of human life - fine by me - maybe I should consider joining something!
As he and some of historians have claimed, that the 'Blackadder' view of this shitty war needs changing - there must be a great number of Socialists/Communists in Britain today otherwise neither he nor his historians would bother their arses mentioning Blackadder - he is the only one to have brought it up here.
This war was caused by different groups of predatory Imperialist capitalists sending millions of mainly young men to their deaths in pursuit of territory and wealth:

The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I, was around 40 million.
There were 20 million deaths and 21 million wounded. The total number of deaths includes
9.7 million military personnel and about 10 million civilians. The Entente Powers (also
known as the Allies) lost about 5.7 million soldiers while the Central Powers lost about 4 million."

It was an Imperialist war brought about by right wing politics.
World War two was brought about by extremist right wing politics driven by a desire for world domination, added to which was a crusade to wipe out an entire people because of their religious beliefs and cultural background.
IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT BOTH OF THESE WARS WERE POLITICALLY RIGHT-WING INSTIGATED I HAVE NO PROBLEM WHEN PEOPLE DESCRIBE ME AS "LEFT WING" - AS MISLEADING AS THAT MIGHT BE
Keith's obsessive defence of this horrific war certainly puts paid to his claim that he isn't a right-wing extremist
Out of the closet or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:49 AM

Dave,
You are still referring to me as one of 'you people' when you know damn well that I have never disputed any of your points. Why is that?
No. I gave the description. If it does not apply to you, you were not included.

You have not commented on the 'you lose' comment. Why is that?

I have not used that expression anywhere in this thread, so why accuse of point scoring on that basis?

You never apologised for being unclear in what you asked me for. Why is that?

I am not clear what you are asking me for.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Fred
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:25 AM

Leave him be DtG, he'll go and boil some sauages in a short while. His "knowledge" is firmly based in his adherence to toeing the miltary line. Don't contradict or argue with officers if you know what's good for you. He may not be in the forces now but his attitude reflects his training. Rather pathetic really that a grown man cannot reason for himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:24 AM

Sorry Raggytash - Missed you out but I am sure you are quite capable of kicking teribums without my help anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:17 AM

There we have Gnome, Musktwat, Steve Shaw, Raggytash, Jom - all singing from the same hymn sheet

So, which hymn sheet is that Teribums? The only thing I have said about WW1 history is that I do not know enough about it. Steve has only been on the thread briefly and said specifically to keep him out of it. Musket takes the piss and you fall for it every time and Jim is perfectly entitled to his own opinion. So, how is that any sort of concerted effort? Did you just make that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:11 AM

There we have Gnome, Musktwat, Steve Shaw, Raggytash, Jom - all singing from the same hymn sheet that went out of date and was shown quite comprehensively to be wrong way back in the 1970s when material from the German side became available and was translated - all of you unable to formulate any idea or opinion of your own so you stick to the myths, lies and misrepresentations that suited the "socialist" cause.

At least the likes of Keith A; myself; HiLo; Lighter; Guest # have read and are knowledgeable with regard to the history of the period we are discussing - it becomes clearer with every post exactly how little you lot know about it. There was an anonymous GUEST (Musktwat") wittering on about "Howlers" unfortunately they've all come from your side of the argument and I would more than willing to parade them all for you any time you like.

Example: Hey Jom what was that First World War stretcher-bearer's name again?

Example: Musktwat tell us all about the REDTOPS

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 09:45 AM

Yes, Keith. Absolutely. That was the whole point. Teribums was rabbiting about people not making their own minds up and quoting other people instead. Which is why I made the comparison. To show that not only Jim does it.

You are still referring to me as one of 'you people' when you know damn well that I have never disputed any of your points. Why is that?

You have not commented on the 'you lose' comment. Why is that?

You never apologised for being unclear in what you asked me for. Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 09:14 AM

Dave, Jim has quoted the same bit of his Spectator review SEVEN TIMES IN THE LAST FEW DAYS.
Ad Nauseum? I would say so.

He claimed it showed Hastings disagreeing in some way with anything I have ever said.
It did not.
It said, " in Hastings's hands even the old saw of lions led by donkeys is turned on its head."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 09:11 AM

Just for the record I have never knowingly been a comrade.


Vy mozhete tovarishch.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:42 AM

Now the Comrades all resort to personal attacks, having nothing else to offer.

Dave Gnome,
what 'the historians' say and parrots their texts ad nauseam

What the historians say is actually relevant to a discussion about history!
If you people could find an historian who agreed with you, you would do the same!

Jim,
Keith, who is now resorting to openly lying about what people

No, I give actual quotes!!
It is you who must resort to lies because you have nothing else.

The Comrades reject the findings of all the historians, choosing to believe myths based on their hard left politics instead.
That is why we can never agree.
Unless and until you can produce someone with actual knowledge who still believes your old hard left myths there is no point in continuing.
Can you Comrades?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:14 AM

Probably made Bangers and Mash Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:54 AM

Sounds like he played with fireworks.