BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:19 PM

Even for you Musket, your above post is way over the line. What is the matter with you, disagree with people yes, but don't villify them for not agreeing with you. And Musket, read some history, it won't hurt...er.. or maybe it will...who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:16 PM

I never realised my granddad's generation were a set of liars. Even the ones buried in foreign fields.

Fucking disgrace, that's what you are.

As someone who claims to admire historians, I didn't think the mindset of Irvine was what you had in mind.

Go back to your toy soldiers. Laughing at you is becoming less funny, the more you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:05 PM

"Normal people" learn history from the history books.

No normal person believes themselves to somehow know more about it.
Only you Comedy Comrades.
You have yet to find a single historian who still believes that shit, because it has been shown to be shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 12:57 PM

Your weird twisted take can never convince normal people till you dig up the war graves and pretend it never happened.

How can you stand at your local war memorial and pretend to care? Sick puppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 12:51 PM

All that shit refers to those old, debunked and discredited versions of history that he and the others cling to.

The people with most credibility on matters of history would be the historians, like all the ones I have been quoting.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 11:43 AM

What do you mean by all that shit and anyone with any credibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 06:10 AM

Very amusing Comrade Musket, but have you found anyone with any credibility who believes all that shit?
No?
Come back when you do.

I have lots.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:38 AM

Bloody hell. The jingo jankers are accusing reality of dogma now.

Excellent.

You couldn't make it up.

But they do.

🐴🐴🐴

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:33 AM

BBC puts Hastings at the top of its list of "Ten leading Historians."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26048324
The Comedy Comrades, as ever, know better!

If Hastings did not exist, it would still be true that no historian agrees your nonsense, while I say what they say.
It is just a diversion. What else can the Comedy Comrades do?

They have to reject the actual history because it rubbishes their daft dogma.
They can never, never admit that their dogma is a lie.
Which it is.

Dave said,
"we certainly do have examples above of historians who don't say this."
Three days later and he has still can't name one!

Then there was "REF2014"
"ROTFL24/7" !

No-one with any knowledge still believes your daft dogma.
Come back when and if you ever find one.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:48 PM

And your ability to actually make any reasonable, logical and objective judgement on what does and what does not make a good general is how good Raggy? From what you have posted on this and other WWI threads on this forum I would measure it as being pretty piss poor - Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 02:21 PM

Glad you like the reference enough to copoy it teribums. Maybe, one of these days, you may have on original thought of your own. Not likely, I know, but I always like to hope for they best:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 02:19 PM

Teribus,

As to whether you have the knowledge to join the society of which I am a fellow (same as member) I have not a clue. Keith does have this knowledge I know because of a conversation on another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 02:10 PM

One crap General versus one not quite so crap General does not make the second one a good General. He's still a crap General however you wish to paint it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 01:59 PM

Hells teeth GUEST Dave, you've a nerve talking about confusion! Half the time you don't know whether you are addressing Keith A or myself - who's point 3 were rabbiting on about further down the thread?

Oh Dear, how sad, never mind - diddums.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 01:55 PM

"it certainly doesn't mean Haig was a good general."

Good enough Raggy to command, plan and execute the most successful offensive campaign ever conducted in the history of the British Army which in only 100 days completely routed the German Army facing him and ending the First World War - That German Army, which in 1914 was considered to be the best in the world, Haig defeated it with Great Britain's first citizen army - good General? Certainly better than any he was up against and his record speaks for itself - something you would have known if you had bothered to read up and study it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

These Royal Societies aren't quite as exclusive as that. I am a Fellow of one, in whose remit I have been a professional (i.e. paid to do it) but I know very well you don't have to be. If you cough up your sub, and you show a vague interest, you are in. Keith could join it, he knows which one.

DtG again I think he is confusing us, it was I who said that this discussion was not about history, but about whether Remembrance Day ceremonies were Jingoism or Commemoration, as evidenced by the thread title

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:23 AM

Reading through the narrative Gnome I rather think that we are ruining yours.

Deary, deary me. Running out of original thoughts as well as poor quality insults. It was Williams!

Just for you, teribums

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:09 AM

I've sussed it!

If Teribus writes long enough essays (as well as cut and paste from The Conservative Book for Boys 1949) some of it HAS to make sense.

In the same way as an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters doing the Hamlet bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

Still can't see anything wrong with that assessment. However it doesn't mean that you are God's gift to the study of it, it doesn't mean you every pronouncement has to be taken a gospel, AND it certainly doesn't mean Haig was a good general.

Is that alright Sergeant?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:57 AM

Ah GUEST,Raggytash - 12 Dec 15 - 10:43 AM

Would that be the same Teribus, who with regard to the subject of the First World War, you wrote the following?:


"You are obviously interested in the subject and far more knowledgeable than some others on this forum."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:53 AM

Dave the Gnome - 12 Dec 15 - 10:22 AM

Reading through the narrative Gnome I rather think that we are ruining yours.

Ah Musktwat, the "occasional" applies to his journalism and irrespective of what you think - he (Sir Max Hastings) deems himself to be retired and oddly enough that is good enough for me, as is the fact that he is regarded as being an historian by the Royal Historical Society which counts far higher than a bunch of idiotic tooth-suckers on this forum who have never had a truly independent thought in their heads and are stupid enough to enter into a discussion to argue their point of view from a position of self-confessed ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:43 AM

Has anyone else noticed the correlation between Sergeant Williams and Teribus ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:39 AM

Just to address some of Terribulus's odd statements for a minute. (Against my better judgement.)

An interview with Hastings a few months ago in a flight magazine I was reading noted how prolific he has been in his history writing and noted his rather regimented "this much time writing then breakfast, two hours of reading followed by a walk followed by editing earlier notes etc etc." (Not exactly what it said but you get the gist.)

Not exactly in tune with your "retired" and "occasional" make believe is it?

Still, he is a retired hack writing history to make money for his publishers and try to make sure everybody remembers him when he is pushing up the weeds. He seems to have jumped on the idea of revision as a marketing tool. His defence of shooting deserters is about all I will remember him for. His published article saying posthumous pardons are just a stunt and the kangaroo courts were right is about as low as you can get.

Still, the title "historian" isn't protected. Never has been.

As I have had my writing on WW1 published, I'm a historian.

I have been published within the last twenty years, am eminent and Keith has read my work.

Sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:35 AM

Oh Dear, how sad, never mind? Sergeant Williams?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:22 AM

Dave theGnome says the discussion isn't about history.

Did I? When was that then?

I think our toy soldiers are getting all upset because the nasty people are spoiling their little game. There is a phrase that the sergeant major in "It ain't half hot Mum" used to use that I think is very apt.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:36 AM

If The Royal Historical Society recognises Hastings as an historian, it is of little consequence what a few Mudcat Lefties think.

The joke is that even if you did discount Hastings it would not weaken my case in the least because he is just one of many I have been quoting.
You made fools of yourself to no purpose!

Intelligent people learn history from the history books.
The Comrades reject all that and make their own shit up.
They can find not one person of knowledge to back them.

Unless and until they do, there is no discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:09 AM

Me, I'm making cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:48 AM

" GUEST,Musket - 12 Dec 15 - 07:23 AM

I'm Napoleon for that matter

Figures Musktwat - IIRC he was a portly, egotistical, loser as well

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:33 AM

GUEST,Dave - 12 Dec 15 - 06:21 AM

Max Hastings is a journalist, author and editor of right-wing newspapers. Keith you were asking for eminient historians to be respected by their peers, and Teribus stated that Hastings received good peer reviews in academic circles, but Hastings and also Nigel H. Jones sit outside the formal academic peer review system. They are not formally academic historians, they are amateurs in that they are paid to do something else.

Sir Max Hastings has been retired for some years now, if you want to be accurate, he writes occasional pieces for whoever he likes, he is also elected to become a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, here are some general facts about the Society - read 'em you might just learn something (Although in your case I rather doubt it - you seem to revel in illustrating that you are as "thick as shit" and proud of it)

"Fellowships are awarded to those who have made "an original contribution to historical scholarship", normally through the authorship of a monograph, a body of scholarly work similar in scale and impact to a monograph, or the organisation of exhibitions, conferences, the editing of journals and other works of diffusion and dissemination grounded in historical scholarship. Election is conducted by peer review and all applications must be supported by an existing Fellow. Applications are welcome from historians working within or outside the UK." - Source RHS Website

"Since it was founded in 1868 the RHS has become the foremost society in the UK working with professional historians and advancing the scholarly study of the past. We are a learned society with charitable status that is increasingly at the forefront of policy debates about the study of history. We work closely with the Historical Association, the body that leads on history in schools, the Institute of Historical Research, a central hub for the provision of research resources, and History UK (HE), a council of representatives of UK university history departments." - Source RHS Website

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:23 AM

I'm Napoleon for that matter, Terribulus.

But what does it matter to you? Why does one anonymous contribution have to be attributed to Raggytash, another to me etc.

Why is that?

I couldn't stop laughing when you decided one poster was me despite at the time having not posted in months.

Bullies need to know who they are bullying I suppose. It's in the psyche.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:22 AM

Dave, have you read any WW1 history at all?
Anything?

I am saying that millions did die and that historians instead of taking from that

The immense cost in human life is the most salient fact pertaining to that war.
Every historian deals with that fully in their work.
If you had read anything you would know that.

the fact the war was unjustifiable, focus instead on trivia.
Except that they do not.
If you had read anything you might know that too.

WW2 was comparable in cost.

All the mainstream media including BBC call Hastings a leading historian.
Go into any library or bookshop and you will find his works prominent in the history section.
The other historians acknowledge that he is an historian.
Some bloke called Dave who has read no history at all thinks he is not.
Who are you again Dave?
What is your credibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:16 AM

GUEST - 12 Dec 15 - 05:21 AM

You have got to be joking haven't you - unless it has escaped your notice (And it probably has) this happens to be an open forum. You post something on it and anyone can answer and/or respond to points made. IF you wanted to have a discussion that was restricted to just yourself and Keith A you could PM him - but that wouldn't suit your purpose would it?

As to your knowledge well of course we don't have any idea do we - primarily because you never say anything on the subject - but I would say that I wouldn't be too far off the money in stating that along with the rest of the Let's mob, bully and ridicule Keith A crowd - on the subject of World War One - you haven't got a F**KIN' Clue.

You could of course confound us all and respond to this post with logical and reasoned arguments backed by substantive evidence countering the three points originally brought to our attention by Keith A, but I don't think that you will - that is why you hide behind the anonymous GUEST facility afforded on this forum - my guess is that you are Raggytash.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:04 AM

No Hilo, I am saying that millions did die and that historians instead of taking from that the fact the war was unjustifiable, focus instead on trivia.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:45 AM

It is quite easy to do a Mudcat search.

After calling Musket a liar and Dave the Gnome wrong, you can search on what they said. To be fair, there is a hell of a lot but even just glossing through them, it is clear that Keith A of Hertford is being inconsistent and saying anything he likes in order to ridicule fellow posters.

I think he deserves all the flack he gets.

The person behind Hilo is certainly expressing the lo, we await the hi. He or she seems to be egging on their favourite football team against all odds rather than understanding the issues. Mind you, their team has a leaky defence, own goals but plenty of dribbling.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:33 AM

Dave are you really saying that after dozens of posts on this thread that you know little history, have little interest in what historians have to say about ww1.no historian , revisionist or otherwise, has ever suggested or denied that millions died. Your really a very under informed person.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:21 AM

Max Hastings is a journalist, author and editor of right-wing newspapers. Keith you were asking for eminient historians to be respected by their peers, and Teribus stated that Hastings received good peer reviews in academic circles, but Hastings and also Nigel H. Jones sit outside the formal academic peer review system. They are not formally academic historians, they are amateurs in that they are paid to do something else. It is like describing the likes of Piers Corbyn and Benny Peiser as climate scientists, they each have an academic background but not in the subject that they make most of their statements about now. I have no background in history, and I have no real interest in what historians say about WWI unless there are revisionists who deny that millions died in the trenches. But I have heard nobody deny this, and therefore conclude that there was no justification for the sacrifice of all those lives, whatever historians might say about peripheral minutiae such as which bunch of inbreds occupies our throne.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:17 AM

Well, Dave theGnome says the discussion isn't about history. Sniping from the sidelines......that is actually quite funny coming from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:09 AM

No they don't. Only the one's you consider valid do. Which indicates to me that you don't want to learn about the subject. You merely want your preconceptions backed up by a list of historians who regurgitate each others work. Rather pathetic really.

PS Guest Hilo, I don't recall you actually mentioning anything about the history of WW1 at all, sniping from the sidelines seem to be your bag. I wonder if your Teribus in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:54 AM

Sorry, above was I.guest, I believe that both Keith and teribus have shown that they have a good grasp of the subject,. They have clearly stated their views and backed their views with facts. We do have insight into your knowledge of the subject, guest...it is in all of your posts. You appear to know nothing of the subject, same league as Dave and Dave, yet you all continue to make arses of yourselves,
Why not gracefully admit to ignorance and call it a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:47 AM

So making cheese and beer is a waste of time is it. Well I'll be wasting some more time of Monday when it will be a day of making a cheddar which I intend to mature for at least 6 months. I'll get on the phone now to my mate who owns a brewery and tell him to close down because he is wasting his time making some exceptional beers.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:44 AM

See what I mean, Dave? :-)

I am well on my way to winning that £200

Teribums - Making beer and cheese is useless crap while discussing history that no one can do anything about is? Whatever rocks your boat I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:43 AM

Keith, that is not correct. Various historians have been mentioned in various threads, for instance Ferguson, who you have dismissed. I am asking what is your AUTHORITY to declare their work invalid and accepting as valid the work of other historians. Are you qualified in some way be denote which historians are valid and some historians invalid. By the way accepting that Teribus can answer on your behalf sounds like a cop-out and could come back to bite you at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:34 AM

Non-person,
I can not always answer quickly am very happy for Teribus to answer for me.
I merely asked on what authority he considered some historians to be valid

I am not doing that.
Jim, Musket and now Dave are asserting that Sir Max Hastings is not an historian.

no insight into my knowledge of the subject, he do not know which books I have read or which books have passed me by.

None of the non-persons have posted anything revealing any historical knowledge.
If you have read any book of the last twenty years you will know it supports me.
If that is not a fact, name the book and author.

All the historians any of us can find support my views.
None have been found that do not.
Unless and until they are there is nothing to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:21 AM

Teribus, Several points come to mind, firstly why are you answering a question put to Keith. Do you feel he is not capable of responding himself, do you feel he is inadequate and unable to elucidate intelligently on his own. Secondly I made no reference to Keith's knowledge on the subject of WW1, I merely asked on what authority he considered some historians to be valid but considered other historians to be invalid. Thirdly you have no insight into my knowledge of the subject, he do not know which books I have read or which books have passed me by. So perhaps you will do us all a favour and mind your own business and allow Keith (who you seem to believe is NOT knowledgeable and capable enough) to answer on his own. So Keith what is your authority to declare some historians valid and some historians invalid. PS Take no notice of your mate he seems to believe you are thick.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:49 AM

He doesn't know anything about the actual issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:38 AM

Same old Musket.
Just personal abuse and lies.
Nothing about any of the actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:35 AM

Dave, it is dancing on a pin again to talk about the exact number of historians in the world and percentages of them.

The relevant facts are that I have quoted numerous historians who agree my views because they are where I learned them, while those who attack those views can find none who agree with them.

Until they do there is nothing to discuss.

It is Jim, and Musket who make assertions about who is a historian.
Since he was first mentioned 3 years ago they have been denying that Hastings is one.
Guest should have said,
"What gives THEM the right to dictate which histories are valid or invalid. What do THEY bring to the party that no one else has. It is arrogance to the extreme to pontificate as you do. So just what is your AUTHORITY."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:56 AM

"it's a long time since my name has been used"

If I was advertising myself as a tutor, I'd not want to be associated with the Keith A of Hertford logic either.

It's alright Dave, even when one of the other Muskets bumped into him once at a folk club in Hertford, he was on here stating that he never did. Despite the Musket not yet being a Musket. Come to think of it, I did a gig once in Hertford with a band I occasionally played in and I can confidently state that blah blah

He does have a competitor though. Terribulus's offensive posts are wonderful and because moderators give up the will to live before the end of the first sentence they are never deleted. So we can all scroll up and have a good laugh from time to time.

In fact, hang on...

😹😹😹😹😹😹😹😹
🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:38 PM

Could not agree more Teribus. A truly ignorant lot , post after post on a subject they know nothing about! And they look more and more stupid with each post.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:48 PM

Dave the Gnome -11 Dec 15 - 06:00 PM

"Smart Troll" Eh? You lot are anything but - you have been coaxed into displaying your ignorance and your snap up the bait and revel in it.

"Smart Troll"? You have got to be joking - a sadder bunch I have never seen in my life.

On this as on all those previous WWI threads that you managed to get shut down and deleted we are running rings round you. Not one single fact that we have put up have you lot been able to challenge all you have is personal abuse and ad hominem attack. Keep it coming you only succeed in making yourselves out to be complete and utter prats - hence all the de-clutching of cookies and posts as anonymous GUESTS - pathetic absolutely pathetic.