Origins: Pretty Saro

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:31 AM

SharonA- I'm so sorry to learn of the death of Tor Jonassan...this is a loss. But what a lovely gesture- to leave his music to Sing Out!

I just re-read my note above, and I neglected to say that the second paragraph refers to, "Pretty Saro," and not "Bachelors' Hall." Jean R.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: SharonA
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:13 AM

Wow. How curious that this thread was refreshed on October 7th (yesterday). Later that day, I heard "Pretty Saro" sung by Marti Rogers (who has appeared on Mudcat Radio) during a memorial service for a dear man and an anchor of our local folk-song society, Tor Jonassen. He had named his daughter Saro (actually, as one of her middle names), and Marti had often sung the song for him.

Tor passed away on September 12th. BTW, his extensive (and I do mean EXTENSIVE) collection of folk recordings is to be bequeathed to Sing Out! magazine, and will be preserved with his name in the title of the collection as a tribute.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:44 PM

Lesley N- The "Bachelors' Hall" lyrics you gave are the ones from my (Ritchie) family of Viper, KY. The song was first recorded on one of my earliest recordings, Elektra (EKL-25, 1954, "O Love is Teasin'" album). I know these are my lyrics because of the very slight changes I made when singing it in my younger days.

Also, the three verses and melody given here in the DT version are the ones from our family. Recorded in 1957 on Folkways 2316, "The Ritchie Family." Most recent recorded on Greenhays (GR714-distr.by Rounder) on "The Most Dulcimer" album, 1984.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:08 AM

Ref-rush!

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:29 AM

resound

Subject: Lyr Add: BACHELOR'S HALL
From: Lesley N.
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 02:04 PM

I'm with Mary. I don't know why it strikes a chord with others, but when I was working my way through college as a temporary secretary I was treated with less than respect a good bit - and when came out of college with a BA in economics the employment agency wouldn't offer me anything but secretarial positions. I also volunteered for a battered women's shelter for many years. So it strikes a chord with me even though I was never the sort to march or burn my bra!

And yes, the Carolan site is mine - at least this one is Turlough O'Carolan (http://www.contemplator.com/carolan.html). It languishes a bit because I can't find full arrangements of his music, but I'm very pleased to have introduced a lot of people to his wonderful work - and to Barry's fantastic arrangements of them.

Good call on BACHELOR'S HALL! Here are the American lyrics from my site (from the Appalachians again)

Oh hard is my fortune and hard is my fate,
Controlled by my mother so early and late,
And when I get married just to end all the strife,
Controlled by a man for the rest of my life.

O, young men go a-courtin' they dress up so fine,
They cheat the girls up, that is all their design;
They'll titter, they'll tatter,
They'll laugh and they'll lie,
They'll cheat the girls up till they're ready to die.

When young men go a-courtin' they stay up all night,
Get out in the mornin' and look like a fright;
They saddle their horses, they rock and they reel,
Dag-gone them old girls, how sleepy I do feel!

O, bachelor's hall it is bound to be best,
Get drunk or stay sober, lay down take your rest,
No woman to scold you, no children to bawl,
So happy is the man that keeps bachelor's hall.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 01:39 PM

You're right Markf. I just noticed that another name is "Wagoner Lad."...As far as oppression, can't answer that. But I do know that when I first heard these words in 1968 (and in college near Appalachia....pre-women's movement) the words really grabbed me.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: bunkerhill
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 01:00 PM

Mary in Ky: "Hard is My Fortune" lyrics look a lot like the ones I first heard as "Bachelor's Hall" and later as "Wagoner's Lad." Since I just came in from another planet, could someone explain why oppression of women was such a popular theme? Lesley N.: I've got no notes on Bunclody. Found it in "Ireland the Songs: Book 4" (publisher's US rep is Walton Music Inc., 110 Elm St., Westfield, MA, 01085). Penultimate line is "I am bound for Amerikay, my fortune to try," which may point toward famine-gold rush year of 1849 referenced in some of the other postings. (And if you're the Lesley N. behind the Carolan site, THANKS).

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 12:23 PM

I'll send it to you. It was the first song I sequenced and is only two voices.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 12:14 PM

How interesting. Sounds like the woman's answer to Prety Saro! I'll see if I can find anything on it. In case I can't - do you have the tune anywhere Mary? I suppose it could be one of the variations in Randolph or Sharpe... I'd love to put it up!

Subject: Lyr Add: HARD IS THE FORTUNE
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 11:19 AM

Hi Lesley,

Yep, it's me, Mary!

Talk about knock my socks off when I heard your "Pretty Saro." It's one of my favs, but I've always known that tune as "HARD IS THE FORTUNE." My tune starts out just like yours, but then is a little different. Here are the words:

Hard is the fortune
of all womankind
She's always controlled,
she's always confined.
Controlled by her parents
until she's a wife,
Then a slave to her husband
the rest of her life.

My horses are hungry,
They won't eat your hay;
So goodbye, little darlin'
I'm going away.
Your parents don't like me,
They say I'm too poor;
They say I'm not worthy
To enter your door.

TTYL,
Mary (AKA, Mary in Kentucky)

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARO / PRETTY SARAH^^
From: raredance
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 12:47 AM

Dorothy Scarborough in "A Song Catcher in Southern Mountains, American Folk Songs of British Ancestry" (Columbia University press, 1937) includs two versions that she collected in 1930. One was from the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia, the other was collected in the Asheville, North Carolina area near the Smoky Mountains. She has a somewhat different take on the origins of the song as indicated by the book title and the following passage from the book:

"Mrs. Stikeleather also sang it (i.e Pretty Saro) into my Dictaphone and contributed it to this collection. She told me that while the date 'eighteen-forty-nine' is used in some of the versions of the song, 'seventeen-forty-nine' is more probably correct, as that year witnessed considerable immigration to North Carolina from Ireland and Scotland, and this old English song was no doubt adapted to its new setting at that time"

This is an interesting anecdote, and plausible too, but can't be considered strong evidence because there is no connection made to the purported English predecessor. Later Scarborough says that the use of the phrase "free-holder" indicates the song is of British origin. I am not sure how the distinction is made between a song brought over from Britain and a song assembled in the USA by recent English-speaking immigrants. Here is the text she collected in NC

PRETTY SARO

I came to this country in seventeen-forty-nine,
I saw many a true love, but I never saw mine.
I looked all around me and found I was alone.
And me a poor stranger, and a long way from home.

Down in some lonesome valley, down in some lonesome place,
Where the wild birds do whistle their notes to increase,
I think of pretty Saro whose waist is so neat,
And I know of no better pastime than to be with my sweet.

I wish I were a poet and could write a fine hand,
I would send my love a letter that she could understand.
And I'd send it by a messenger where the waters do flow
And think of pretty Saro wherever I go.

And here is the text collected in Virginia:

PRETTY SARAH

Down in some low valley in some lonesome place,
Where the small birds to whistle their notes do increase.
I think on pretty Sarah and her ways air so compleat,
I could wish no better pastime than to be with my sweet.

I came to this country eighteen-sixty-nine,
I saw many lovers but I never saw mine.
I looked all around me, I found I was alone,
And I a poor soldier and a long ways from home.

I wish I was a larks man and had wings and could fly
Down in my love's window this night I would lie.
All day and all night I would set down and cry,
And in my love's lily white arms this night I would lie.

I wish I was a penceman (pen-man, i.e writer)and could write a fine hand,
I would write my love a letter that she might understand
I would send it by the waters and the Island do flow
I think on pretty Sarah wherever I may go.

My love she won't have me because I am poor
She says I am not worthy of entering her door.
But I could maintain her on silver or gold
And meny other fine things that my love's house could hold.

My love she won't have me, as I understand
She wants some free-holder that has houses and land.
But she will repent it when her love's all in vain,
For love is a torment and a heart-breaking thing.
^^

Notice the 1800's date in the second version and how the folk process converted "waist is so neat" to "ways air so complete" or vice versa.

rich r

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 12:30 AM

You can find the tune (one of them at least) at Pretty Saro (http://www.contemplator.com/folk6/saro.html).

Interesting variations. Vance Randolph also has the song In Eighteen Hundred and Forty-Nine in Vol. 4 - says it took parts of Pretty Saro and Jack of Diamonds as well. The version I have of PS doesn't have the verse about wishing to be a dove - which is similar to Fair and Tender Ladies... Seems like much cross pollination is going on and isn't likely to be all sorted out. Such is both the pleasure and frustration of folk music...

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: doug
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 12:18 AM

like the lyrics, how can i get the tune? (i don't know how to get tunes in general) thanks doug

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARO (from North Carolina)^^
From: raredance
Date: 04 Dec 99 - 11:57 PM

Here is the second text from the Frank C Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore.

PRETTY SARO

Pretty Saro, pretty Saro, I love you, I know,
I love you so dealy I never can show.

On the banks of old Cowie, on the banks of said brow,
I loved you dearly, and I love you still now.

Down in some lonely valley, in some lonely place,
I hear small birds singing their notes to increas.

I makes me think of pretty Saro, her ways were so complete
. . . . . . . .

It's not this long journey that troubles my mind,
NOr the country I'm leaving behind.

My true love won't have me, so I understand;
She wants a freeholder, and I have no land.

Whenever I get tired I set down and weep
And think of pretty Saro wherever I be.
^^

The book suggests that that the odd line "banks of said brow" might be a corruption of the line in verse 9 of the other version which has "the mountain's sad brow"

rich r

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARO (from North Carolina)^^
From: raredance
Date: 04 Dec 99 - 11:42 PM

The Frank C Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore (Duke Univ Press 1952) describes Pretty Saro (aka Pretty Sarah) "a favorite song in the South, and carried thence to the Midwest. It is reported as as a traditional song from Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, the Ozarks, Indiana, and Iowa.... The author - if it had one - has not been discovered." Two text versions and six tune variations are included in the FCB Collection. The first is rather much longer than most.

PRETTY SARO

When first to this country a stranger I came,
I placed my affection on a handsome young dame.
I looked all around me, and I was alone
And a poor stranger and a long way from home.

CHORUS:
Oh Saro, pretty Saro, I love you, I do
I love you, pretty Saro, wherever I go;
No tongue can express it, no poet can tell
How truly I love you, oh I love you so well.

Down in some lonely valley, in some lonesome place,
Where the small birds are singing and the notes to increase
The thoughts of pretty Saro, so neat and complete,
I want no better pastime than to be with my sweet.

Oh I wish I was a poet and could write some fine hand;
I would write my love a letter that she might understand
And send it by the waters where the island overflows,
And think of pretty Saro wherever I go.

My love she don't love me, as I understand,
She wants some freeholder, and I have no land.
But I can maintain her with the silver and gold
And all the pretty fine things that my love's house can hold.

Oh Saro, pretty Saro, I must let you know
How truly I love you - I never can, though;
No tongue can express it, no poet can tell
How truly I love you, I love you so well.

It's not the long journey I'm dreading to go
Nor leaving of this country for the debts that I owe;
There is but one thing that troubles my mind,
That's a-leaving pretty Saro, my true love, behind.

Farewell my dear father, likewise my mother too,
I'm a-going to ramble this country all through.
And when I get tired, I'll sit down and weep
And think of pretty Saro wherever she be.

Oh I wish I was a little dove, had wings and could fly,
Straight to my love's bosom this night I'd draw nigh
And in her little small arms all night I would lay
And think of pretty Saro till the dawning of day.

I love you, pretty Saro, I love you, I know.
I love you, pretty Saro, wherever I go.
On the banks of the ocean and the mountain's sad brow
I love you then dearly, and I love you still now.
^^
Note that verses 5 and 9 borrow heavily from the chorus.

rich r

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 04 Dec 99 - 10:01 PM

Thanks very much. I managed to find a bit at the Ballad Index on Pretty Saro - but haven't found anything on Bunclody!!

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: bunkerhill
Date: 04 Dec 99 - 09:38 AM

It's related somehow to the Irish song "Bunclody." The first lines of the first three verses are 1. Oh were I at the moss house where the birds do increase...2. Oh, tis why my love slights me as you might understand...3. Oh were I a clerk and could write a fine hand.... My hunch is Pretty Saro came first, but maybe it could help with your trace?

Subject: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 04 Dec 99 - 07:56 AM

Pretty Saro is in the database and there is a thread with Doc Watson's lyrics as well - but no information on the song. I've traced it to Sharpe's English Folksongs from teh Southern Appalachians but haven't found anything else. Does anyone know something about the suspected origins of the song?