Origins: Pretty Saro

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 09:37 PM

Again, see my earlier post, with a link to the Brereton set. My comments were not made idly. The more information we repeat, the harder it will become to see wood for trees.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 09:29 PM

Maid of Bunclody- Bodleian Library Broadside 2806 b. 9(206). Other copies (2) use the spelling Bon Clody, but one unreadable and the other has no image.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE MAID FROM BUNCLODY (added verses)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 09:22 PM

Some time ago, Stewie posted "THE MAID FROM BUNCLODY" but it has not yet reached the DT.
A version in the Bodleian Library has reference to freehold, and firms up the connection to "Pretty Saro" The two verses not in the version posted by Stewie, plus a different 2nd verse, are:

If I was in Bunclody I would think myself at home
It's there I would have sweethearts but here I have none
Drinking strong liquor is the height of my cheer
Here's a health to Bunclody and the maid I love dear.

If I were a lark and had wings I could fly,
I would go to yon harbour where my love does lie
I would proced to yon harbour where my true love does lie
And on her fond bosom contented I would lie.

The reason my love slights me as you may understand
She has got a freehold and I have no land
She has a great store of riches ans a large ---- gold
And everything fitting a house to uphold.

The first line, 1st verse- Were you ever at the moss house---. Other differences to the one posted by Stewie very small. Maid of Bunclody
The Maid of Bunclody, 1867, P Brereton, 56 Cook St., Dublin

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SHUTTLE-COCK (from Bodleian broadside
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:52 PM

In the post by Malcolm Douglas concerning the origin of Bunclody-Pretty Saro, etc., he mentions a tune used for Bunclody, also used in "I rise in the morning with my heart full of woe." This is the first line of a song called "The Shuttle-cock," about a weaver. The song has some parallels with songs discussed here. This version was printed between 1780-1812 and is from the Bodleian.

Lyr. Add: THE SHUTTLE-COCK

I rise in the morning, with my heart full of woe,
I go to my shop, lift my shuttle for to throw;
There's nothing does ail me but innocent love,
And hope to be rewarded by the powers above.

O Polly, O polly, O Polly love, said he,
The pain I lay under for Loving of thee,
If you did but know, love, how love torments me
You'd take pity on me, lovely Polly.

Tho your friends and mine do all join in one,
To strive for to part us, they do all they can,
Leave your own parents, and go along with me
Like a lady of honour, my darling shall be.

It's hard to find a young man that's loyal and true
For he'll go a courting to one girl or two;
He'll go a courting, till to their love inclin'd
Then maids make your hay while the sun it doth shine.

The last verse taken in part from another song? Firth c.18(96), between 1780 and 1812, J. Evans, printer, Long-lane, London. Bodleian Library.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 07:21 PM

An Irish origin for this song still looks most likely, I think: see my post long ago and far above...

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARO and PRETTY SUSAN
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 05:45 PM

There are many songs about a young man without land (Pretty Saro) or without money or without a decent trade (Pretty Susan, Rose of Ardee) who can't forget the gal who refused him for one with the wherewithall. There are parallels with Pretty Susan (Susie), an old English song which made it to North America as Pretty Susie (in the DT, from Brown) Here is Pretty Saro from Randolph, coll. in MO.
(Note: place of collection, in the period after WWI may have no relation to the place where the song was originally sung).

PRETTY SARO

Way down in Lowless Valley,
In some lonesome place,
Where the small birds doth whistle,
Their notes do increase,
Whilst thinkin' on pretty Saro,
Her ways so complete,
I want no better passtime
Then her to be with.

But my love she doth slight me,
Because I am pore,
She says I'm not worthy
To enter her door,
But this she'll repent of
When all is in vain,
For love is a torment
An' a heart-breakin' thing.

My love she won't have me
An' I understand,
She wants some free-holder,
But I got no land.
But I could maintain her
On silver and gold,
An' many a fine thing
My love's house should hold.

I wish I was a lark
An' had wings an' could fly,
Away to my love's house
This night I'd draw nigh.
An' in some little window
All day I would cry,
An' all night in her white arms
I'd lay down an' die.

Sung by Mrs. Linnie Bullard, MO, 1926; with music.
Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, 1980, vol. 4, pp. 222-224.
A fragment in Randolph uses the name Molly.

Randolph separates "In Eighteen-forty-nine" as a song made up of scraps and fragments, including "Pretty Saro," with echoes from "Jack O'Diamonds," "Farewell, Sweet Mary" and "Rabble Soldier."

A similar story but told very differently is found in "Pretty Susan," from England (orig. Ireland?).

PRETTY SUSAN

When first from sea I landed I had a roving mind,
Undaunted I rambled my true love to find,
When I met pretty Susan with her cheeks like a rose
And her bosom more fairer than lilies that grows.

Her keen eyes did glitter as the bright stars of night
And the robes she was wearing was costly and white,
Her bare neck was shaded with her long raven hair,
They call her pretty Susan, the Pride of Kildare.

A Long time I courted till I'd wasted my store,
Her love turned to hatred because I was poor,
She said I love another whose fortune I'll share,
So begone from pretty Susan, the Pride of Kildare.

O my heart asked next morning as I lonely did stray
I espied pretty Susan with a young lord so gay,
And as I passed by them with my mind full of care,
I sigh'd for pretty Susan the Pride of Kildare.

Once more on the ocean I resolved for to go,
And was bound for the east with my heart full of woe,
There I beheld ladies in jewels so rare,
But none like pretty Susan, the Pride of Kildare.

Some days I am jovial, sometimes I am sad,
Since my love is courted by some other lad,
And since we are at a distance no more I'll despair,
And my blessings on my Susan the Pride of Kildare.

Bodelian, Harding B 17(246b) and Johnson Ballads 1935; printed between 1827 and 1847. Wheeler, printer, Whittle St. Oldham.

Pretty Susie, The Pride of Kildare, from Brown, in the DT, from North Carolina, is quite similar.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 11:20 AM

Jean herself has already posted to this thread a few times last year, when it was originally started; she posts here as "kytrad". With luck she'll be back before too long; her comments on the additional material that's been added since the discussion was revived a few months ago would be very interesting.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Kiki
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 10:36 AM

Here is another answer to your question. No one has mentioned Jean Ritchie. She has a lovely version on her The Most Dulcimer (I think) CD. (I am at work and can't remember which one, but I am pretty sure it is on The Most Dulcumer) She might be a good sorce for its routes and very willing to answer questions. Look up Greenhays or her name on the internet. I would be intersted in the time frame. It sounds Civil Warish but from reading all the responses looks like it could be earlier. I am involved with a living history time period of about 1770 - 1830.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 12:28 PM

Thanks, Masato. I failed to turn up the song in the DT as well, forget what I typed in the DT. 'at the foot' also turns up "Green Mountain," another folksong about an imprecisely defined(?) high spot.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 05:01 AM

I didn't notice that AT THE FOOT OF YONDER MOUNTAIN is in the DT.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 04:27 AM

The same pages from Chase's book are reproduced in Reprints from SING OUT!, Volume 12 (Oak, 1973, pp. 14-15).

Subject: Lyr Add: AT THE FOOT OF YONDER MOUNTAIN
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 02:56 AM

Dicho, here it is, with Chase's notes. From: Richard Chase, American Folk Tales and Songs (1956; reprinted Dover , 1971, pp. 152-153; with music).

AT THE FOOT OF YONDER MOUNTAIN

This is from the singing of Horton Barker. It is given in John Powell's Five Virginian Folk Songs as recorded by Annabel Morris Buchanan from Miss Lillie Williams of Marion, Virginia.
Mr. Powell says of this song: "Among American songs of this group may be mentioned: 'The Wagoner's Lad,' 'On Top of Old Smoky,' and 'Pretty Saro.' Lucy Broadwood and Anne Gilchrist have written articles which set forth the hypothesis with such logic and insight as to bring conviction that this song is derived from an ancient mystical hymn to the Virgin. They identify its locality with that of Saint Michael's Mount, strangely predominant in Cornish lore since pre-Saxon, even pre-Christian, times."
Related English songs are: "Sweet England," "Come All You Little Streamers," and "Linden Lea." There are related tunes from Scotland and Ireland. (See also, "Clinch Mountain.")

1. At the foot of yonder mountain there runs a clear stream,
At the foot of yonder mountain there lives a fair queen.
She's handsome, she's proper, and her ways are complete;
I ask no better pastime than to be with my sweet.

2. But why she won't have me I well understand:
She wants some freeholder and I have no land.
I cannot maintain her on silver and gold,
And all the other fine things that my love's house should hold.

3. Oh I wish I were a penman and could write a fine hand!
I would write my love a letter from this distant land.
I'd send it by the waters just for to let her know
That I think of Pretty Mary wherever I go.

4. Oh I wish I were a bird and had wings and could fly,
It's to my love's dwelling this night I'd draw nigh.
I'd sit in her window all night long and cry
That for love of Pretty Mary I gladly would die.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 12:33 AM

Does anyone have the words to "At the Foot of Yonder Mountain" (in Chase) or of another version?

I pointed out this website on Sharp, Olive Dame Campbell, Mary Sands and the contributors to Sharp in another thread. It is well-worth reading. Nest of Singing Birds

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 11:43 PM

Arbutus is a genus of the Ericaceae. The British have the evergreen strawberry tree, or Arbutus unedo, from southern Europe but naturalized in Ireland, and often cultivated in England.
Americans mostly know a quite different plant, the trailing or creeping arbutus, Epigaea repens of eastern North America, a creeping plant with fragrant pink or white flowers in early spring, followed by (usually) orange berries.
An American Arbutus, a small tree, is Arbutus Menziesia, or Madrona, with peeling white bark on cinnamon stems, mostly seen on the west coast. It is quite different from the European Arbutus.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 10:12 PM

An arbutus is a strawberry-tree.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 05:21 PM

What's an arbutus?

I've never heard Iris DeMent NOT sing like that.

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARRY (trad. Indiana)
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM

Here is a version, with music, called "Pretty Sarry" from southern Indiana. You will find it in SINGING ABOUT IT: FOLK SONG IN SOUTHERN INDIANA [transcribed] by George List in 1991, and published by Indiana University at Bloomington, pp. 169-170. These songs were "Transcribed principally from recordings in the Indiana University Archives of Traditional Music."

"PRETTY SARRY"

Way down in some lone valley or in some other place,
Where the small birds do whistle, and their notes do increase,
I'll think of Pretty Sarry, her ways so complete;
I love her, my Sarry, from her head to her feet.

My love she won't have me, as I understand
She wants a freeholder and I have no land,
Yet I could maintain her on silver and gold
And as many other fine things as my love's house could hold.

I went to my Sarry, my love to unfold,
To tell her my passion so brave and so bold.
I said to her, "Sarry, will you be my bride,
And walk with me ever, right here by my side?"

"I love you, my Sarry, as you can well see.
I will take you a-traveling o'er land and o'er sea.
...some jewels I will buy you to wear,
For there's no one, my true love, to me is more fair."

Then Sarry held out her sweet little hand,
And said, "I can't love you for you have no land.
I have promised another to be his dear wife,
And walk with him ever, all the days of my life."

"You have broken my heart strings, Pretty Sarry," I said.
"I will go from your presence. I wish I was dead.
Some other lover will kneel at you feet
And take the dear kisses that I once thought so sweet."

The tune seems similar to other traditional versions, with complexities of its own. The note following the song says,

"Aunt" Phoebe explains how and when she learned this song at the beginning of Chapter 1[sorry I didn't get more of this information]. She had learned it from a great aunt who, in turn, had learned it in Virginia before 1800. George Malcolm Laws considers this a lyric song rather than a ballad. The song seems to be associated with the Appalachian region, there being only one non-Appalachian text printed, from the Ozarks. However, the song obviously refers to the colonial plantation life of the coastal plain, to a period when the English semifeudal aristocratic view still prevailed. The ownership of land was not only the mark of a family of good breeding but also the source of political power. A merchant, a nonfreeholder, no matter how successful, was to be rejected." (page 170)

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARO
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM

Here is Cas Wallin's version of "Pretty Saro" that was recorded by John Cohen and Peter Gott in August, 1963, and released by Folkways Records as OLD LOVE SONGS AND BALLADS FROM THE BIG LAUREL, NORTH CAROLINA, (Album No. 2309).

When I first come to this country in 1849
I saw many fair lovyers, but I never saw mine
I view-ed all around me, I found I was quite alone
And me a poor stranger and a long ways from home.

My true love she won't have me, as this I understand
She wants a freeholder and I've got no land
But I can maintain her on silver and gold
And as many of the fine things that my love's house could hold.

It's I wish I was a poet and could write some fine hand
I would write my love a letter that she might understand
And I'd send it by the waters when the islands overflow
And I'd think of my darling wherever she goes.

It's I wish I was a turtle dove, had wings and could fly
Just now to my love's lodging tonight I'd draw nigh
And in her lily white arms I would lie there all night
And I'd watch them little windows for the dawning of day.

Way down in a lonesome valley, way down in a lonesome grove
Where the small birds doth whistle, her notes to increase
My love she is slender, both proper and neat
And I wouldn't have no better pastimes than to be with my sweet.

Well I strolled through the mountains, I strolled through the plain
I strove to forget her, but it was all in vain
On the banks of Old Cowee, on the mound of said brow
Where I once loved her dearly and I don't hate her now.
------------------

Here is Doug Wallin's version, from DOUG AND JACK WALLIN, FAMILY SONGS AND STORIES FROM THE NORTH CAROLINA MOUNTAINS, Smithsonian Folkways :

I came to this country in 1849,
Saw many a true lover but I never saw mine,
Then I viewed all around me and found myself alone,
And me a poor stranger, and a long ways from home.

My true love won't have me, this I understand,
She wants a freeholder, but I have no land,
Though I could maintain her on silver and gold,
And all the other fine things that her heart might behold.

It's not this long journey I'm dreading to go,
Nor the country I'm leaving, nor the debts that I owe,
But nothing so grieves me, nor troubles my mind,
Like leaving my darling, pretty Saro behind.

If I was a poet and could write a fine hand,
I would write my love a letter that she might understand,
And send it by the water when the islands o'erflow,
And think of pretty Saro wherever she'd go.

If I was a little dove, had wings and could fly,
To my true lover's dwelling this night I'd draw nigh,
In her lily white arms all night I would stay,
And watch them little windows for the dawning of day.

Sheila Kay Adams' tune and phrasing is almost exactly the same as that of Cas Wallin and she has picked up phrasing and a verse from Doug Wallin as well. She has said that she liked Doug Wallin's singing of these old love songs the best.

------

And here is Mary Sands' version that she sang for Cecil Sharp on August 5, 1916, at Allanstand, N.C. She was Doug Wallin's Great Aunt and Cas Wallin's Aunt and Sheila Kay Adams Great-Great Aunt (I think!).

When I first came to this country in eighteen and forty-nine,
I saw many fair lovers, but I never saw mine;
I view it all around me, I found myself lone,
And me a poor stranger and a long way from home.

My love she won't love me, yes, I do understand,
She wants a freeholder and I've got no land,
But plenty to maintain her on, silver and gold,
And as many other fine things as my love's house can hold.

Farewell to my mother and adieu to my old father, too,
I am going to ramble this whole world all through;
And when I get tired I'll set down and weep
And think of my darling, pretty Saro, my sweet.

Down in some lonesome vallely, down in some lone place,
Where the small birds do whistle their notes to increase;
But when I get sorrow, I'll set down and cry
And think of my darling, my darling so nigh.

I wish I were a poet and could write some fine hand,
I would write my love a letter that she might understand;
I would send it by the water where the island overflow,
And I'd think of my darling wherever I go.

I wish I were a dove and had wings and could fly;
This night to my love's window I would draw nigh,
And in her lily-white arms all night I would lay
And watch them little windows to the dawning of day.

The tune given by Sharp for Sands' version is quite close to that sung by both Wallins, Sheila and Iris Dement. One can see here how this song has come down through at least four generations. So Iris Dement's version is very traditional, that tradition coming from the Sodom Laurel country of Madison County, North Carolina.

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARO
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 06:47 PM

Here is the version that Iris Dement sang in the film SONGCATCHER and on the CD:

When I first come to this country in eighteen and forty-nine
I saw many fair lovers but I never saw mine
I view-ed it all around me, saw I was quite alone
And me a poor stranger and a long way from home.

Well, my true love she won't have me and it's this I understand
For she wants some free holder and I have no land
I couldn't maintain her on silver and gold
But all of the other fine things that my love's house could hold.

Fair thee well to ol' Mother, fair thee well to my Father, too
I'm going for to ramble this wide world all through
And when I get weary, I'll sit down and cry
And think of my Saro, pretty Saro, my bride.

Well, I wished I was a turtledove, had wings and could fly
Far away to my lover's lodgings, tonight I'd draw nigh
And there in her lily-white arms I'd lay there all night
And watch through them little winders for the dawning of day.
---------------------------------------------------
Here is the version that Sheila Kay Adams sings on her cassette, LOVING FORWARD, LOVING BACK, from Granny Dell Records, GDR-3107:

When I first come to this country in eighteen and forty-nine
I saw many fair lovers but I never saw mine
I view-ed all around me, saw I was quite alone
And me a poor stranger and a long ways from home.

Well it's not this long journey I'm a dreadin' for to go
Nor the country I'm, a leavin' nor the debts that I owe
There's only one thing that troubles my mind
That's leaving my darlin' pretty Saro behind.

Fare-thee-well to old Mother, fare-thee-well to Father, too
I'm a goin' for to ramble this wide world all through
And when I get weary, I'll sit down and cry
And I'll think of my darlin', pretty Saro, my bride.

Well, I wish I was a poet and could write some fine hand
I would write my love a letter that she might understand
And I'd send it by the water where the islands overflow
And I'll think of my darlin' wherever I go.

Well, I wish I was a turtledove, had wings and could fly
Right now to my lover's lodging tonight I'd draw nigh
And there in her lily-white arms, I'd lie there all night
And I'd watch them little windows for the dawning of day.

These two versions share three verses. Sheila has two verses that Iris omits and Iris has one that Sheila omits. You will find all of these verses in the more comprehensive versions to follow, and I would suggest that both versions have a common source. Iris's tune and phrasing is almost exactly the same as Sheila's. Even Iris's pronunciation and dialect reflect Sheila's training. For comparison, see Sheila's version of "Barbara Allen" on her CD MY DEAREST DEAR, from Granny Dell Records 1220, and compare this with Emmy Rossum's version of "Barbara Allen" on the SONGCATCHER CD. It is uncanny! Sheila says that it took six weeks, seven days a week, several hours a day for Emmy to learn how to do that.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 06:23 PM

Almost a year ago, Harpgirl asked about the origin of Iris Dement's version of "Pretty Saro" that she sings in SONGCATCHER. On both the CD and the website listed above for the lyrics, the song is marked "traditional". And traditional I think it is, but from a rather special tradition. I would suggest this lineage:

1. Iris Dement learned this song from the dialect and song coach for the film SONGCATHER, who happened to be Sheila Kay Adams, the ballad singer from Sodom, North Carolina.

2. Sheila says she learned this song from Cas Wallin, a cousin of hers, also from Sodom. I think she was also influenced by Cas' nephew, Doug Wallin.

3. Doug says he learned his version from his great-aunt, Mary Sands. I would imagine that Cas also either learned his version from Mary Sands or was at least influenced by her version, and that Sheila drew from Sands'(printed) version.

4. Mary Sands sang her version for Cecil Sharp on August 5, 1916, and it appears as No.76, version A, in his book ENGLISH FOLK SONGS FROM THE SOUTHERN APPALACHIANS, Vol. II, p. 10.

For comparative purposes, I will post these various versions in two more messages.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:21 AM

I've just noticed this thread - I've been after the origins of Pretty Saro for years. I vaguely remember someone once telling me that it was collected in Somerset and this made sense to me as I've interpreted the version I know as fitting in very neatly with the emigrations from Wiltshire and Somerset to Upper Canada in the 1820s and 1830s. Many of these emigrants, whose passage was paid for by the parish were ex soldiers, and their letters home were published at the time in order to encourage other poor people to emigrate. In 'my' version one of the verses is

'I wished I was a poet and could write a fine hand I'd write my love a letter, so she'd understand I'd send it by the islands, where the waters overflow, And I'd think on Pretty Saro, wherever I go.'

Letters out of Upper Canada (like the emigrants who came in) would have been carried thought the St lawrence and through its rapids and the many islands between Quebec, Montreal and Kingston.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM

I just took your quotation as you gave it. As given, it was wrong.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 07:57 PM

Dave, read on in their definition- A lot more is there. My lawyer son is not here so I should have just stopped with the statement that, yes, there is such a thing as freehold in USA law.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 07:24 PM

Dicho reported, concerning "freehold" or ownership in fee simple, that: The "'Lectric Law Library" has a simpler definition (: "an interest in land which permits the owner to enjoy possession of real estate during his life without interference from others."

The "'Lectric Law Library" is wrong. If the definition goes no further than as quoted, it would merely be a "life estate" rather than outright ownership.

"Freehold" or "fee simple" gives the owner all rights, including the right to sell during his life or to dispose by will after death.

Then there's "fee tail", which sounds strange, and we need no bawdy jokes here, but it can be thought of as an relative of the "life estate" I referred to above. In this case, the thought is that the estate in question really belongs to the family or line of succession; it is "entailed". The holder of fee tail may use, lease out, build upon, or whatever during his lifetime, but may not sell the land, and may not will it to anyone else, because it must go to (is entailed to), for example, his oldest son, who then will have the same rights during his life, and it passes on to HIS (for example) oldest son, and so on forever.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 05:49 PM

Although large parts of both Saro and Bunclody are composed of "floating" verses, the quite close parallel certainly would seem to suggest a connection; both songs being descended from a common ancestor, perhaps. There are some broadside examples of the second half of the 19th century at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads; only one, an issue by Brereton ("The World's Worst Printer") is legible, though, and that barely. However, it's virtually identical to the text given by Colm O Lochlainn in his Irish Street Ballads, which he learned from his father, who would have been around 10 years old when the Brereton sheet was issued.

The maid of Bonclody Printed c.1867 by P. Brereton, 56 Cook Street, Dublin.

Lochlainn's tune for Bunclody doesn't much resemble the best-known Saro tune, but one that does is the melody used by A.P. Graves for his song My Love's an Arbutus. As Bruce Olson pointed out in the thread where that was posted, the tune is from Stanford-Petrie (no. 507), where it is called I rise in the morning with my heart full of woe, or, The Coola Shore. At this point I grasp at a tenous connection; in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, there is a song, If I Were a Fisher, which begins When I rise in the morning, to my garden I'll go... which, like the song that follows it, The Star of Benbradden, is pretty clearly a member of the Saro / Bunclody song-family. I don't think it's only my imagination that detects a kinship between the Fisher tune and that of I rise up, either.

Of course, the floating verses mostly turn up in English songs, too, but given the structure of the text and these apparent tune correspondences, in this case the strongest argument seems to be for placing Saro as an Irish song changed in some, relatively minor, particulars to suit its new life in America.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 05:19 PM

Capitols? Aargh!
17080: Buncloudy

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 05:14 PM

Yep, Doyle did- I said it is not listed now, not that he didn't sing it.
Bunclody seems to be the most common spelling. The version in Mudcat, posted by Stewie under Buncloudy, is in thread 17880: Buncloudy
Another version is at Bunclody

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: GUEST,WeeWillie
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 05:06 PM

Dicho, Danny Doyle DID record Pretty Saro, also on the LP My old Howth gun,John O`Hallrohan, The rising of the Moon, and far and away the best rendering of Mary from Dungloe. At this moment I am having the pleasure of listening to DANNY DOYLE SINGING PRETTY SARO. Wee Willie

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: GUEST,Joan Sprung
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 03:55 PM

Since so many lines are similar, there's surely a link between Bunclaudy and Saro. Which came first is a good question. Surely someone can come up with the text; I can't seem to find it. Must be in that safe place I put it in case I wanted it...

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 05:22 PM

GUEST,Saro, the version you posted is almost exactly the version I have, recorded by Pete Seeger.

This version makes A LOT more sense than most of the others posted, some of which imply that the singer doesn't have land, but he could take care of her with silver and gold!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: RolyH
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:41 PM

Notes on the song by Alan Lomax from 'The Penguin Book of American Folk Songs'

'This song refers,fleetingly,to the motive which forced many settlers into the wild and rugged mountain country.All avialable good land in the lowland South had been taken up by the time of the American Revolution,and the 'poor white'who wished to better himself had to move on West.This love-sick frontiersman feels 'lonesome';he is not sure that he is wanted or has roots anywhere.This 'lonesome'feeling increasingly pervaded Southern songs,giving rise,ultimately to the 'lonesome blues'of the Negro.'

Sounds a bit like living in Suffolk.(except for the mountains)

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:51 PM

Danny Doyle, with Terence Folan, has written the book, "The Golden Sun of Irish Freedom," based on the 1798 Rebellion. It includes the traditional ballads with music and guitar notation. He has several good cds out, but none includes Pretty Saro.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: GUEST,Wee Willie
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:27 PM

Danny Doyle recorded Pretty Saro on an LP in the late 60s or early 70s, this is a beautiful recording. Wee Willie

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:28 PM

In an earlier post, it is stated that Scarborough believed that the song is of British origin because of the term freehold. The term is used in United States law as well. In brief, freehold is defined as "a tenure of real property by which an inheritance in fee simple or fee tail of an estate for life is held." Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. Greek? Yep. And not quite correct, either.
The "'Lectric Law Library" has a simpler definition: "an interest in land which permits the owner to enjoy possession of real estate during his life without interference from others."
The citizens of Freehold, New Jersey, would be surprised that their area was not a product of freehold.
There is still no evidence that the song has British origins (or that it is exclusively American either).
See: freehold The definition here goes on to give a simple example.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:12 PM

I just came into this thread, and noticed Joe Offer's posting that suggests a meaning for "wander by the river" might be suicide.

I was talking to Kevin Baker (a fine songwriter down Wollongong way) a few years ago, and he mentioned some social research he had done in the Riverina district of New South Wales. He had come across the expression "walking into the dam" as a euphemism for suicide in the area. This had developed because drowning oeself in a farm dam was a method used in a number of suicides.

Is there any more information on the "wander by the river" expression?

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 06:46 PM

Lyrics to Iris Dement's version can be found on this page (scroll to the bottom)

Subject: pretty saro
From: GUEST,guest sarah
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 06:40 PM

has anyone deciphered the lyrics to the last verse of iris dement's recent version from 'Songcatcher' where she sings something like

"far away to my lover's bodzine" ????

thanks

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:29 PM

...lovely version, Guest,saro. I'll bow to the experts regarding Dame Olive but sometimes I give a dissenting opinion just to stimulate conversation, my friends. Dialectics you know .......harpy

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY SARO
From: GUEST,saro
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 04:26 PM

Mary in Kentucky,

I'm sure you've heard many versions of the song, but I've only heard the one my father sings to me and I've also seen one in an old book that I have that is very similar. My father learned from his dad in the mountains near Asheville and here are the words as we know it, (they're pretty straightforward, I think):

Down in some lone valley, in a far lonesome place
Where the wild birds do whistle and their notes do increase
Farewell my pretty Saro, I'll bid you adieu
And I'll dream of my darling wherever I go.

My love, she won't have me, so I understand
She wants a freeholder and I have no land
I cannot maintain her with silver or gold
Or buy all the fine things that a large house would hold

It's not the long journey; I'm dreading to go
Nor leaving my country for debts that I owe
The one thing that grieves me and troubles my mind
Is leaving my darling, pretty Saro behind

Farewell to my father, and my old mother too.
I'm going to ramble this country all through,
And when I get tired, I'll sit down and weep
And dream of my Saro, pretty Saro my sweet

I wish I were a sparrow and had wings and could fly
This night to her window, I would draw neigh
And in her lily-white arms, all night I would stay
And I'd sing to my darling 'till dawn becomes day

I wish I were a merchant and could write a fine hand
I'd write my love a letter that she'd understand
I'd write it by the river where the waters o'erflow
And I'll dream of my darling wherever I go

Down in some lone valley, in a far lonesome place
Where the wild birds do whistle and their notes do increase
Farewell, my pretty Saro, I bid you adieu
But I'll dream of my darling wherever I go

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 16-Aug-02.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:54 PM

Harpgirl,

Not to set this thread adrift too far (and I'm getting tired of saying this on every Songcatcher thread I encounter), but the Songcatcher screenwriter, publicity materials, and movie credits all say that the story was inspired by Olive Dame Campbell. She and Marguerite Butler founded the John C. Campbell Folk School in 1925, naming it for Olive's late husband. Also, as a friend of mine says, "without Olive Campbell, Cecil Sharp would have had just a nice walk in the woods." She gets credit on the title page of "English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians", but not much of the glory. More info (and a picture!) on Olive Campbell on the Folk School's site here.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: GUEST,saro
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:46 PM

i've heard of that song, i have it in a book, but i've never actually heard anyone sing or play it

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:41 PM

Saro, do you also know the song, Rock About My Saro Jane? I always think about that one when I talk to a friend from Georgia named Sara Jane.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: GUEST,Saro
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:30 PM

Oddly enough, I came here to find some mp3s on my namesake. I am named Saro after this song. My father grew up in North Carolina and fell in love with this song along with many others. I've heard him sing it to me since I was a little girl, but I was looking for some of the other versions I've heard about and when I saw this page, I thought it might interest you to hear from me. One more thing, just to date this equation, I am a 19 year old college student in Idaho.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:11 PM

I dunno Jean...Dorothy Scarborough still rings truer for me...(see my remarks on the Songcatcher thread I refreshed earlier today while I was goofing off...)hhhggg

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:42 PM

For the sake of completelness, I think I'll post the Ballad Index entry. Sandy Paton e-mailed and told me that the the book A Song Catcher in Southern Mountains was for sale at Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller, but I couldn't find the dang thing in their catalog or Website. I bought a copy used for $15, which seems to be the going price for used copies of the 1966 reprent of this 1937 book.
-Joe Offer-

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Pretty Saro

DESCRIPTION: The singer loves Pretty Saro, but she shows no interest in him: "She wants a freeholder and I have no land." Nor can he write her a letter "in a fine hand" as he would wish to. In despair he vows to "wander by the river" (or kill himself?)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1911 (Lomax, North Carolina Booklet, according to Randolph)
KEYWORDS: love poverty river
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So)
REFERENCES (16 citations):
Randolph 744, "Pretty Saro" (1 text plus a fragment, 1 tune); cf. 745, "In Eighteen-Forty-Nine" (2 texts, 2 tune) and the Hudson text cited below
High, p. 11, "A Corting Miss Sarrow" (1 fragment, perhaps this although several lines could be from other songs)
BrownIII 252, "Pretty Saro" (2 texts)
BrownSchinhanV 252, "Pretty Saro" (6 tunes plus text excerpts)
Hudson 48, pp. 164-165, "Pretty Saro" (1 text, beginning with stanzas from "In Eighteen-Forty-Nine" and ending with "Pretty Saro," plus mention of 1 more text)
Browne 9, "Pretty Saro" (2 fragments, 2 tunes; the first text is solely this; the second begins with the first verse of "In Eighteen-Forty-Nine" and continues with a verse of "Pretty Saro")
Scarborough-SongCatcher, pp. 327-328, "Pretty Saro" (2 texts, with local titles "Pretty Saro," "Pretty Sarah"; 2 tunes on p. 443)
Brewster 99, "Pretty Sairey" (1 text)
Stout 85, pp. 106-107, "Pretty Sarah" (1 text)
SharpAp 76, "Pretty Saro" (4 texts, 4 tunes)
Sharp/Karpeles-80E 39, "Pretty Saro" (1 text, 1 tune, with one stanza omitted)
Ritchie-Southern, p. 68, "Pretty Saro" (1 text, 1 tune)
Fuson, p. 115, "Lone Valley" (1 text)
Chase, pp. 152-153, "At the Foot of Yonder Mountain" (1 text, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 148, "Pretty Saro" (1 text)
DT, PRETSARO* YONDRMTN
Roud #417
RECORDINGS:
Horton Barker, "At the Foot of Yonder's Mountain" (on Barker01)
Glen Neaves, "1809" (on Persis1)
Ritchie Family, "Pretty Saro" (on Ritchie03)
Jean Ritchie, "Pretty Saro" (on RitchieWatsonCD1)
Pete Seeger, "Pretty Saro" (on PeteSeeger40)
Cas Wallin, "Pretty Saro" (on OldLove, DarkHoll)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "In Eighteen-Forty-Nine" (floating lyrics, tune)
cf. "If I Were a Fisher" (floating verses)
cf. "Go Away From Me, Willie" (floating verses)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Pretty Sarah
NOTES [68 words]: This piece seems to break up into two families, "Pretty Saro" (which appears to be more popular) and "At the Foot of Yonder Mountain." In the latter, the woman is "Mary," not "Saro." Broadwood and Gilchrist argued that all this is based on an ancient hymn to the Virgin Mary. If so, that would argue that the "Yonder Mountain" form is older. But we all know how active some folklorists' imaginations are. - RBW
Last updated in version 4.3
File: R744

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2018 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

---

Here's the Jean Ritchie version:

PRETTY SARO

Down in some lone valley in a lonesome place
Where the wild birds do whistle and their notes do increase,
Farewell, pretty Saro, I bid you adieu,
But I’ll dream of pretty Saro wherever I go.

My love she won’t have me, so I understand,
She wants a freeholder and I have no land;
I cannot maintain her with silver and gold,
Nor buy all the fine things that a big house can hold.

If I were a merchant and could write a fine hand,
I would write my love a letter that she’d understand,
I’d write it by the river where the waters o’erflow,
But I’ll dream of pretty Saro wherever I go.


Copyright 1940 Jean Ritchie
from Jean Ritchie's Swapping Song Book (page 82)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4q8Wrd5IYQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL0ikqy8IYo

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:28 PM

I heard that the "heroine" in the script of "Songcatcher" was based upon the life of Olive Dame Campbell. She and her husband, John C. Campbell, founded the John C. Cambbell Folk School in Brasstown, NC (Name recently shortened to Campbell Folk School).

Olive Campbell collected songs in our part of Eastern Kentucky, early in the last century; also, Josephine McGill (Uncle Jason Ritchie squired her around on horseback to introduce her to singers, and always afterward referred to her as, "a right fine girl.").

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:34 PM

...Well, I read all the threads (didn't take long, they were mostly about how we had all these threads) and the most interesting thing is that Dorothy Scarborough may have been the inspiration for the movie as katlaughing points out.

I do think the CD is very good and despite all the Nashville stars, it is an interesting mix of versions of the old songs. I recommend it.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:18 PM

...Actually, Peter, I'd like to have a copy of the book. I wanted to see just how closely the version that Iris Dement sang was to what was collected in this particular book. I must confess I haven't read anything from the Songcatcher threads. Perhaps I should.

Prior to seeing the movie and purchasing the CD I sang a version of "Pretty Saro" that I got from a dulcimer book. I think it is Jean's version but I have to go back home and look today.

I liked the "Songcatcher" movie version a lot. hg

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM

Is there something you are looking for specifically from Dorothy's book? or just seeking general info. I have access to a copy (it was the inspiration for my part in the Mudcat Star Trek adventure).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Info on Pretty Saro?
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM

...I refreshed this thread because I wanted to see if I could track down possible origins of the version of Pretty Saro that Iris Dement does in "Songcatcher." I'd like to see Dorothy Scarborough's book! Anyone have an opinion or know????