BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill

Subject: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Kampervan
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 02:54 AM

We need to move to a higher wage/lower welfare benefit society, says the chancellor.

Ok, but surely, given that most of the welfare benefits are means tested, all we have to do in to grow wages. Reductions in the cost of welfare will then follow automatically.
We don't need to cut the benefit (as the new universal credit system will still do), because, if wages really do go up, then fewer will need them.

Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 04:53 AM

You are missing an idealogical commitment to a smaller state and growing inequality. And also the fact that he is lying about wages going up.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:15 AM

I. Order to receive higher wages one must have a job! Many on benefits have not found jobs, so a wage increase will. Of help .

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:18 AM

Shod read , wage increases will not help.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Kampervan
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:19 AM

Stinks, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 06:00 AM

Reducing the welfare bill has involved putting genuine benefits claimants under dreadful pressure. Jobsworths at benefits offices can impose financial sanctions for the slightest bureaucratic transgressions. It is next to impossible to get ESA even if you're critically disabled. Jobseekers are forced into soul-destroying and fruitless hoop-jumping exercises, often involving three days a week spent at job centres, writing hopeless applications and being constantly vetted and interviewed. Everything is now means-tested to death (not that some things shouldn't be, but the rules are draconian).

They can do all this because the unemployed and the disabled haven't got a powerful lobby group or a trade union to fight back on their behalf. Contrast their plight with the immunity enjoyed by tax-avoiding corporations, large, profitable employers who pay so little that the rest of us have to top up wages with in-work benefits, millionaires with offshore accounts and armies of accountants, non-doms, the royals, landlords with tax reliefs who rake all those housing benefits that we're suckered into thinking are feeding a benefits culture, and all the rest of the sleazy parasites.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST, DTM
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 08:30 AM

I always use this question when assessing a person's character. "Would I buy a car from this person?'

George Osborne? I would buy a bus ticket from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 09:09 AM

Even if job-seekers benefits, in-work benefits and disability support benefits were cut to zero, there would be only a short-term gain as more than 50% of state welfare spend is on pensions and this will continue to increase both as a percentage and as a cost.

Secondly, without a commitment to egalitarian wealth/income redistribution universal high wages will not happen - the economy would not sustain in.

Thirdly, virtually all state welfare payment is 'spent' - a proportion is recycled back to the exchequer through indirect taxes, the rest trickles up to those who own capital - landlords, shareholders, corporations - and a proportion of this is retained to prop individual wealth up further - thus the living wage vs tax credit debate, and the believe by the hard right that by cutting the safety net, the trickle-down effect will fulfill this function.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 11:02 AM

Don't forget that this government is bent on filleting the unions so that those in work can be more readily oppressed, filleting legal aid so that those with rights cannot enforce them in court (unless rich) and even filleting financial support for the function of opposition political parties, so that political opposition is rendered nugatory. It's the modern version of the divine right of kings, and will I fear now only be ended as bloodily as the believers in the divine right of kings were overthrown.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 11:52 AM

Add to the above the fact that the UK media are overwhelmingly right-wing, and that the feeble-minded Daily Mail, Telegraph and Sun readers are easily brainwashed into believing the propaganda they print.

Believing the lies of right-wing propaganda is far easier than thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 12:01 PM

I did a calculation back in the late 70's and reckoned about 70% of my income went in either direct or indirect taxation. If the same holds true today (I've not checked) someone who receives 100 in benefits pays 70 in tax of one description or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 12:15 PM

Ah Raggy just shows how poor your calculations were then doesn't it.

Basic rate tax is what now - 20%
VAT on some goods is 20%
Then you have duty on fuel
Plus duty on alcohol and cigarettes

Hells teeth Raggy to match 70% tax you must have been smoking like a chimney and drinking like a fish - hope you weren't driving while you were doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 01:09 PM

The 70% may not be all that fantastic. After all there is income tax on money you earn and then there are all sorts of secondary taxes on money you spend. There is vat at 20% on a lot of stuff, and there is duty on fags, booze and fuel. Don't forget that fuel duty increases the cost of goods you buy that have been transported, and therefore increases the vat due and stuff brought in from abroad is liable to duty from the importers. Some stuff you buy will have involved multiple taxings. Some counties charge a data tax on phone and computer usage!

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 01:32 PM

Believing the lies of left wing propaganda is easier than thinking as well. I am somewhat tired of people accusing people with whom they disagree of stupidity because they may have views that are slightly right. One of the things That is terribly wrong with the left is their assumption that everyone but the left is brainwashed. And, before I am accused of intellectual inferiority, I am neither right nor left but tend more toward a middle ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 01:41 PM

Richard Bridge & Backwoodsman make good points.
The Oxbridge Clique are going to keep on stretching the rope. One day it will snap and ... well, it ain't gonna be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 01:53 PM

You're not half as tired as I am, HiLo - tired of lying, thieving, scrotey Self-Servative shits operating a Robin-Hood-In-Reverse system in order to benefit themselves and their cronies.

Anyone who can't see that's the way of it is either truly stupid, or enjoys taking it up the arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 02:06 PM

.. or truly ruthless and enjoys shoving it up our arse...

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 02:15 PM

Work and live well, don't work, drop endless children and scrounge.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 03:21 PM

Just as an example Teribus, you might think there is no tax on foodstuffs.

That, on paper, is correct.

However, for instance, the wagon that delivers the goods uses diesel, tax is paid on diesel. The company builds in that cost (diesel) into what they charge me.

So that tin of beans the production of which is (for arguments sake is 5p) is subject to a whole raft of indirect taxation. Tax on the production costs, tax on the transportation, tax on the profit of the company etc etc.

Thus the 45p I pay for a tin of beans goes towards all those costs and a considerable amount of that is in taxation

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 04:26 PM

So what do you suggest, Raggytash? Your brilliant alternative is....?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 04:39 PM

Keith, It was an observation nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 04:52 PM

Land Value Tax would enable some of the burden on the poorest to be alleviated.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 04:55 PM

You can get a tin of beans for less than 32p at Waitrose if you buy a four-pack, Raggytash. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:03 PM

They are possibly less when on offer elsewhere.

Just as an aside Heinz beans are c**p these days. The company seem to have taken most of the sugar and salt out. I buy Bachelors for my Sunday morning fry-up.

But we digress.

Back to the UK Welfare Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:16 PM

"Welfare" has been, or is in the process of being Newspeaked, so that what was a word for a good thing has become something to be seen as an evil. Other words affected have been "refugee", although that seems to be arguing back again, by being compared with "migrant", and "asylum", which, attached to "seeker" was used as a replacement for "refugee" until it too became a bad thing. "Radical" has been stolen from its original historical meaning - you wouldn't see any Liberal claiming to be Radical nowadays, would you? (Or being mocked in quite the way John Buchan did in "The Thirty Nine Steps.")

I was watching an old broadcast about Thomas Cromwell, which mentioned his concern for the commonweal, a thing which our lords and masters wouldn't recognise if it were to jump up out of their PPE reading list and bit them. (He was probably concerned about it because he could see what would happen if the country was full of sturdy beggars with nothing to do and no means to do it with.)

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:17 PM

Well said. I've been saying it for years. We tax people's efforts and still expect them to be enthusiastic about work. We allow major landowners, who did not make the land, and who have inherited that land from ancestors who stole it from ordinary people, to make fortunes out of their holdings and wield inordinate power. A graduated land value tax (taking land quality and size of holding into account) would be just, and it might even get some of the landed gentry to offload some of their holdings in a hurry. Just think. Much smaller parcels of land would be much better looked after, as you'd have to do that to make a living. There would be far more diversity and the more intensive husbandry would mean more rural employment and a far better environment. Anyone objecting to this would need forcibly reminding that agriculture in the UK contributes a pathetic 0.75% of GDP. We don't need all these agribusiness moguls anywhere near as much as we, or they, think. They are a blight on the nation, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:20 PM

That was to Guest Dave. Penny, don't forget the latest obnoxious pejorative, "bed-blockers".

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 06:33 PM

Well backwoods an , I will now to your evident expertise on "truly stupid" !

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 08:24 PM

The largest number of people on benefit in the UK are of course people on retirement pensions. Of the others, the largest proportiin are in fact in work, but not earning sufficient to gget by.

Of course there is a contradiction between the stated objectives of this governmennt and what actually happens. That is the kind of government it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 08:33 PM

True, but people on state pensions have contributed towards that for the whole of their working lives, and what they get depends on the contributions they've made. That is reasonably predictable and accountable. Most other benefits are contingent on the vicissitudes of life. Not the same thing. It's also worth mentioning that the UK old age pension is just about the poorest in the developed world.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 01:17 AM

"Just think. Much smaller parcels of land would be much better looked after, as you'd have to do that to make a living. There would be far more diversity and the more intensive husbandry would mean more rural employment and a far better environment."

Worked really well in Ireland didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 02:11 AM

Nothing new about "bed blockers" but with the non joined up thinking where social care spending is dramatically cut, bed blocking just gets worse. The NHS is then said to be in crisis when patients who are frail but don't need to be in hospital any more cannot be safely discharged. Care homes cannot afford sufficient staff so residents who are poorly are pushed into hospital instead.

The term isn't a nice one and is demeaning to the patient but the situation has been the norm for so long now, the accuracy of the term has overtaken the stigma. Of course, it is because of caring for the patient rather than chucking them out that causes the problem. In any event, if you discharge them to a home environment that cannot continue their care properly, you'll only get them back and trusts are monitored and fined on readmission rates. Yet on a "he is more unwell than her" basis people are discharged with our fingers firmly crossed.

Meanwhile, NHS services that were handed to councils the other year (public health) are being slashed to the point of not being safe but allow ministers to say NHS funding isn't being slashed by them. Osborne announced the needed £4billion the other day but forgot to mention the £20billion cut (efficiency savings) that go with it. The press meanwhile are asking what additional services will be provided with the new money (minus £16billion.)

When the welfare state crumbles, health and social care need goes up. Sorry, we are being fucked up the arse too.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 02:23 AM

"Well backwoods an , I will now to your evident expertise on "truly stupid" !"

My 'expertise' is in English. Yours clearly isn't.
No expertise required in order to recognise stupidity - just close observation and careful thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 04:24 AM

I think the question should not be how to reduce the welfare bill, but how to pay for a fair and vital welfare system. This could easily be achieved by increasing taxation on those who are immoderately remunerated for the work they do and closing the tax loopholes for large corporations.

Our welfare state forms the very fabric of our society, created at a time when the country was bankrupt by giants who understood that an equitable society is a stable one, and that the correlation between inequality and crime, ill health and economic stagnation was well-proven. Moreover, as Toby Judt says in 'Ill Fares the Land', "..the welfare state of the mid-20th century established the profound indecency of defining civic status as a function of economic good fortune." Chamberlain said: "My aim in life is to make life pleasanter for the great majority; I do not care if in the process it becomes less pleasant for the well to do minority." Or, as Kolakowski puts it, "…the welfare state entails protecting the weak majority from the strong and privileged minority." It is this protection that the present government – and Tories from Thatcher onwards – is seeking to remove; eradicating the system that has protected tens of millions of British people from the obscenities of poverty and sickness. We support what they are doing at our peril.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:00 AM

Best post on the subject by theleveller (above).
Key line is "Protecting the weak majority from the strong and privileged minority".
One thing is for certain, the strong privileged minority don't, and will never, give a damn about the weak majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:06 AM

'One thing is for certain, the strong privileged minority don't, and will never, give a damn about the weak majority.'

Not until it comes to election time and then,unfortunately, they manage to persuade/bribe/con enough people to vote them back in.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:37 AM

From: theleveller - PM Date: 27 Nov 15 - 04:24 AM

Bravo! Yanks, take note of the above.

Greg (a Yank)

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,#
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:41 AM

Not only is theleveller astute in his political/social observations, but s/he's one helluva poet too.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,#
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:49 AM

Welfare recipients in the UK: banks, big business, Tory politicians and their friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:54 AM

Well, Backwoodsman, I am quite good at English. What I am not good at is Eyesight. You are a rude wee man aren't you ?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 01:43 PM

Only with people who provoke me. Otherwise, those who actually know me tell me I'm quite a likeable sort of chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 01:47 PM

I don't recall having provoked you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 01:55 PM

Very disingenuous of you. You know very well that your badly-spelled comment was intended to carry a barb.

Like I give a fuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:11 AM

"And, before I am accused of intellectual inferiority, I am neither right nor left but tend more toward a middle ground."

Trouble is, the "middle" seems to keep moving right!

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:04 AM

spot on, leveller. michael foot said something like - government is not for the wealthy and powerful, they can look after themselves. government is for everyone else. i have found it amazing and very depressing how quickly we have lost many positive things in this country that i have always taken for granted. i was discussing the possible reintroduction of a limited form of sick pay with management at work on wednesday. 'sick pay? no care providers pay sick pay these days. our solicitors have advised.......'

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 07:27 AM

Just how long can a sitting government(and their supporters) blame a previous government.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:09 AM

i'm pretty sure that 'newport boy' is being ironic here

---

Troll post and some responses removed. That wasn't newport boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:55 AM

"Just how long can a sitting government(and their supporters) blame a previous government."

I'd bet my pension they'll still be blaming the last Labour government for the world-wide financial crash of 2008 at the next election in 2020. And the stupid, feeble-minded and readers of the Daily Mail and the Sun will still fall for their lies and deceit.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:03 PM

Backwoodsman, I appreciate the sentiment, but if you are betting your pension, you may not be taking as much of a risk as you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:15 PM

I don't think I'm taking a risk at all, Dave. I'm certain they'll still be doing it, I'm certain the stupid and feeble-minded will still believe them, and I'm certain my pension is safe as a result!

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 07:11 PM

"I'd bet my pension they'll still be blaming the last Labour government for the world-wide financial crash of 2008 at the next election in 2020."

That's only 12 years, you-lefties are still blaming Margaret Thatcher for every damn thing under the sun and she left office a quarter of a century ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 07:33 PM

Er, well she did set in train the deregulation of the financial sector (a policy that I fully acknowledge was enthusiastically continued by Blair, before you start having a go). She sowed the seed for the irresponsible behaviour that led to the crash. Of course the crews that followed her didn't have to follow her, but they did. It's all history now, of course, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 07:52 PM

"She sowed the seed for the irresponsible behaviour that led to the crash."

Complete and utter bullshit - the "crash" had its origins in the USA nothing whatsoever to do with Margaret Thatcher. Nothing at all irresponsible in buying debt on the understanding that that debt was guaranteed by the US Federal Reserve Bank - only thing was the US Fed knew nothing about it - but it was on Clinton's watch that that kite was flown via the real estate mortgage brokers Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack. That is all history too Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:12 PM

still blaming Margaret Thatcher

And not without good reason. Why am I not surprised that Teribyte is a Thatcher apologist and fantasist? Bet he thinks Pinochet was a helluva guy, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:33 PM

No worries, Greg. We have progress here. He's blaming yanks, not Gordon Brown. If he and his Daily Mail ilk had done that five years ago, we wouldn't have been doomed to at least ten years of Torydom. It's never too late to welcome home the prodigal son, though I'd want to put him through a thorough disinfection regime first...

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:11 AM

Please don't get me wrong Steve the seeds of the "crash" in 2008 were sown in the USA in 1998, Gordon Brown was a financially irresponsible twat throughout all 13 years of the Blair/Brown era (Pension raids and selling off gold at bargain basement prices in order to "buy" votes). I have very little time for "professional" politicians and that is what Gordon Brown was. Maggie on the other hand was voted into office with the country in ruins and she did what she had to do for the good of the country not the Conservative Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:31 AM

The point I was making, dear Teribus, was that they will still be propagating a complete lie that Labour 'caused' the world-wide financial crash - a lie which they made repeatedly during the 2015 election, and which the gormless and feeble-minded 'Daily Mail' and 'Sun' readers will continue to be sucked in by.

And yes, The Beast of Grantham is responsible for problems which still exist today - like selling off social housing, which led to the situation we have with the housing shortage, and rapacious private landlords able to charge extortionate rents.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:22 AM

"selling off social housing, which led to the situation we have with the housing shortage, and rapacious private landlords able to charge extortionate rents."

Due to rent acts and rent controls town and city councils could not afford to maintain their properties which were rapidly turning into slums and bankrupting those town and city councils creating economic stagnation and paralysis. Maybe they should have rebelled and ripped the rent controls up and charged realistic rents, but they didn't, their other route was to keep the rents as they were and then get those who owned their own homes to subsidise those in "social housing" which led to the ludicrous situation where a widow on a pension was subsidising a family consisting of four wage earners living in a council house not giving a toss about the fabric of the building or looking after it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:00 AM

Teribus, the abolition of the dividend tax credit was not a "pension raid", it was the correction of an anomaly and was supported at the time by, amongst others the CBI. The raid was by companies taking contributions holidays. See:

http://www.stephenbeer.com/Articles/165151/Stephen_Beer/Economy/Dont_blame_Brown.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:52 AM

"you-lefties are still blaming Margaret Thatcher for every damn thing under the sun and she left office a quarter of a century ago."

Yes, we are, because Thatcher was responsible for introducing the pernicious ideology of the neo-liberal free market to this country. This wicked, self-serving nonsense has led to our society becoming ever more deeply divided as the 'un-regulated' rich get richer and richer at the expense of the less well-off. Neo-liberalism also continues to damage our, already badly damaged, environment as the super-rich 'locusts' continue to voraciously devour it with no thought for future generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:15 AM

"
Yes, we are, because Thatcher was responsible for introducing the pernicious ideology of the neo-liberal free market to this country. This wicked, self-serving nonsense has led to our society becoming ever more deeply divided as the 'un-regulated' rich get richer and richer at the expense of the less well-off."

Unfortunately Shim, if we continue to vote to live in this sort of society, we are going to have capitalist economics.

Mrs Thatcher had many serious decisions to make, our manufacturing was obsolete, as Mr T says our housing stock was in ruins, our middle class was dispirited, she went for personal financial aspiration the driving force of capitalist economics......she had no option, given that the UK in my lifetime has never even looked like embracing real socialism with the loss of personal "freedom" that it entails.

Mrs Thatcher bought time for the system AND for the people of this country......One important point applies whether we are a capitalist or socialist nation.... we must support ourselves, either by increased production by financial aspiration, or a lowering of our wasteful living standards throughout the most of society. This would be very difficult to accomplish, given the guaranteed opposition of the rich, the middle class, the media, and most importantly.....the "liberal" Left.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:17 AM

Well said Akenaton.

Whinge on Shimrod:
Thatcher was responsible for introducing the pernicious ideology of the neo-liberal free market to this country."

And the clowns you obviously took a part in electing to power for three successive Parliaments did what? S.F.A., because when landed with the real problems of actually running the country the realisation suddenly dawned on them that she had been right all along. But where she lead and took decisions based on what was good for the nation as a whole irrespective of the damage to the popularity of her party, your clowns thought only of party first, national interest and well being second.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:32 AM

Ah Steven Beer's Blog - not exactly objective or impartial Dave. The pension raid by Brown in 1997 was an unmitigated disaster - not for Civil Servants and politicians though - their final salary pensions paid by those Brown robbed in 1997 are still secure.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:16 PM

Teribus, it's time to start thinking about your New Year's resolution. How about making yours, something like: "In 2016, I resolve to be a much less arrogant and patronising git"?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:26 AM

And time Shimrod for you to start thinking for yourself instead of trotting out the left-wing rhetoric of a bankrupt and disproven political ideology that is tired, worn out, cliched and well past it's "sell by date":

" Thatcher was responsible for introducing the pernicious ideology of the neo-liberal free market to this country."

My giddy Aunt will you just read that out loud and listen to yourself FFS – Oh, hang on to do that you'd first have to remove your head from your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:34 AM

Fascinating.

History revision isn't even waiting the obligatory hundred years now. Th*tcher being rehabilitated by the Mudcat Conservative party. President -Terribulus. Gopher-Akenaton.

You'll never persuade people of bollocks whilst ever living memory knows otherwise. Why do you think the establishment waited till most of the soldiers died before rehabilitating disgraced incompetent leadership in WW1?

You can reduce the welfare bill by creating wealth or starving people. Th*tcher stripped our industrial base, as guided by the nasty buggers pulling her strings and never came up with an equivalent. Gordon Brown on the other hand led the world leaders in averting the worst of the 2008 global crash. I doubt any Little Britain Westminster attitude could or would have the vision to have done that. There again, nobody else would have flogged off the gold at below market price.

Yin and yang really.

We are the worlds fourth largest economy in just about every indicator. This shouldn't be about lowering it as sorting out the equitable distribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:47 AM

Come on then Musktwat tell us all how you would create wealth.

The UK's biggest problem long term is that Labour has taken what was supposed to be a system that provided help when needed on a temporary basis to tide people over into what is now a lifestyle to be demanded by right.

To create wealth first you have to work - there are plenty of jobs if you want to look for them - unfortunately our "native" population feel that such work is beneath them and besides they can "earn more" through our benefits system sitting on your backside at home so why bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:00 AM

It is a real problem.
Paying people to do nothing is one of the most expensive aspects of "welfare"......and it isn't really welfare at all, for without a purpose in life people become even more dispirited and self centred.

Like our monolithic industries of the sixties, people them selves are beginning to become obsolete, other than to be part of an even more monolithic and dispiriting "service sector", with little job satisfaction .....or even wealth generation.

As I have said many times, the culture of "self" has been encouraged, but only a tiny minority can ever achieve what they aspire to.
In place of achievement we are doled out personal social rights, completely meaningless in the real world, but designed to placate the intellectually challenged while the fabric of society crumbles around them,
Society is the only thing that can save us, but it must be a sane sustainable society which can give everyone a purpose and a reason to start giving, rather than forever taking.

The culture of "victimhood" should be banished.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:53 AM

" To create wealth first you have to work - there are plenty of jobs if you want to look for them"

Come on everybody, dig out your bicycle clips it's time to go for a ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 06:25 AM

So, Teribus, I suppose there's no alternative to trashing the planet and while we wait for the apocalypse reducing the population to serfdom. As a result of your harsh but wise tutelage, I see it all now!

Oh yes - and although it's none of your f**king business who I f**king vote for - I haven't voted Labour since Blair. I despise them as much as you do - but probably for different reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 06:43 AM

So Shimrod my assumption of your voting record was correct between 1997 and 2010 you did vote for Labour on three occasions - For Blair in 1997; for Blair 2001; for Blair again in 2005.

Reducing the population to serfdom - my arse. Don't know what age you are you prat, I tend towards you being either retired or very close to it. Take a bloody good look around you and at the world in general, by every metric going people in general are a damn sight better off today than they were 50 years ago.

But please do tell us all how far you personally are down the road to serfdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM

Comment 1. (Shimrod)- I haven't voted Labour since Blair. I despise them as much as you do - but probably for different reasons.

Comment 2. (Teribus)- So Shimrod my assumption of your voting record was correct between 1997 and 2010 you did vote for Labour on three occasions - For Blair in 1997; for Blair 2001; for Blair again in
2005.


Is it me?????

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

The "benefits lifestyle" has always been a myth and it's an even bigger one now. Housing benefit, probably easily the largest element of payments to recipients (many of whom are in work anyway), goes straight into the pockets of landlords who are already enjoying all manner of tax reliefs. Out of work benefits have always been meagre. And let's not forget that Thatcher started the culture of pushing perfectly fit people on to incapacity benefit (when she was closing down whole industries and destroying communities) so that they wouldn't show up in the unemployment figures. The biggest recipients of benefits in this country are the huge, obscenely profitable employers who not only employ armies of accountants to avoid tax but also pay so little that the rest of us have to subsidise the wages the pay via in-work benefits. Round here, a couple working full time on the average wage for Cornwall (which is pennies per hour above the legal minimum) can hardly afford to rent a bog-standard two-bed house on an estate. They got on their bikes and are "doing the right thing." Trouble is, Teribus, you read the right papers for you but the wrong ones for the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 09:51 AM

Glad to know, Steve, that it isn't just U.S. morons who rabbit on about "Welfare Cadillacs" ( got Reagan - Thatchers soul-mate elected!) and other shibboleths regarding the poor.

Or maybe "glad" isn't the right choice of words.....

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 10:20 AM

"Is it me?????"

No, Raggytash, it's an arrogant, patronising Tory tw*t.

All your bluster and bar-room, Daily Mail inspired 'economic theorising', Teribus can't hide the fact that you and your fellow Tory tw*ts are all gigantic snobs. What you really want to see is the people, who you regard as belonging to the 'lower orders', kept in their place. You do realise though, don't you, that the Old Etonians at the top regard you and your ilk as belonging to the lower orders - and they'll be coming for you next!

And you don't like the fact that I despise the neo-liberal, free market economic dogma that is currently wrecking our society and the planet? Well, I have listened to myself and I find myself in full agreement with the Canadian journalist and author, Naomi Klein who sums it up very nicely, I think, by calling neo-liberalism a "licence to steal".

Ms Klein used that phrase in her book, 'This Changes Everything' which is about climate change. And that should remind us that no politician - of whatever hue - has the faintest clue what to do about the appalling mess that our species (and our current economic systems)has made of our environment. Although our current crop of politicians probably think, in private, that the environment is irrelevant it still keeps rising relentlessly up the political agenda (which is why they're all in Paris this week). Just think, Teribus, in another couple of generations your pathetic 'poor bashing' will be irrelevant as the sterilised, de-nuded continents sink beneath the waves.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 10:53 AM

Actually Greg, not many people do begrudge the UK welfare system, but the present government thought up till last week that the loud but ignorant pigs represented a majority of views. Their climb down suggests they are waking up to the idea that they cannot rely on the likes of Teribus forever.

You don't educate pork. You laugh at it then get on with your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:06 AM

that the loud but ignorant pigs represented a majority of views.

Sounds remarkably like the spew that comes out of Republicans this side of the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:21 AM

"Housing benefit, probably easily the largest element of payments to recipients (many of whom are in work anyway), goes straight into the pockets of landlords"

Housing benefit does not get paid directly to the landlords, it would solve one hell of a lot of problems if it was.

Shimrod still trotting out the left-wing rhetoric of a bankrupt and disproven political ideology that is tired, worn out, cliched and well past it's "sell by date".

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:31 AM

Oh Shimrod you didn't tell us how far down the road you are in becoming a serf.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:32 AM

"Shimrod still trotting out the left-wing rhetoric of a bankrupt and disproven political ideology that is tired, worn out, cliched and well past it's "sell by date"."

You didn't read a word of what I wrote, did you Teribus? But what should I expect - you probably think that I belong to the 'lower orders' and should know my place!

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:35 PM

Teribus seems to proving his place with every bit of comedy he writes.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:41 PM

I'm afraid Teribus is right Shimrod, it is impossible to implement real socialism within a capitalist economic system.
So long as we continue to believe in the lottery, we are stuck with Capitalism, and by far the most efficient way of making it work is by electing a right wing government.....the circus on the "liberal" left gives a false prospective and is a huge aid to those who have vested interests in the retention of Capitalism.
There are millions without a purpose redundant, uneconomic, but hey ho! we have "gay marriage".....so that's alright then, the Tories are really liberal aren't they?   do you think the people who run this system really give a damn about minority "rights"

So long as the liberal left stick to their "belief" that equality can be achieved within a capitalist system, we are totally fucked.
The liberal left are without doubt the biggest impediment to the construction of a SANE, fair and sustainable society.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

Of course I didn't take any notice of what you wrote Shimrod - it was absolute nonsense. Now come on you obviously believe in all that claptrap so tell, say in the last few years since the last Labour Government was in power and completely fucked up the country's finances how much more of a serf do you feel now than say in March 2010. There must be some way of measuring YOUR descent into serfdom - I say "yours" because you see I feel and see no difference at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 01:44 PM

Teribus, you still haven't explained how you could equate the two comments I highlighted a few hours ago.


Comment 1. (Shimrod)- I haven't voted Labour since Blair. I despise them as much as you do - but probably for different reasons.

Comment 2. (Teribus)- So Shimrod my assumption of your voting record was correct between 1997 and 2010 you did vote for Labour on three occasions - For Blair in 1997; for Blair 2001; for Blair again in 2005.

Are you once again going to ignore you stupidity.

Just asking like !

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:22 PM

serfing here. i work supporting people disabled people in west cumbria. just a few changes in my life. myself and my colleagues work for slightly above the minimum wage. whereas there was an increase in spending on public services in the previous government, this never got through to the care sector and particularly the growing number of outsourced 'independent' providers. so pay, in real terms, has declined from a very low start.

while it has always been the case that people needing support have had to do with dwindling resources and little choice over the care they get - this has accelerated in recent years with more cuts on the way. it is never the case that a review asks 'what is the best possible care we can give mr X?' always 'what can we afford' and increasingly 'we can't afford anything'

last week i was trying to negotiate a proper sick pay system for workers doing often challenging work. sick pay is now not often part of a worker's pay and conditions in the private care system - even if i was injured in my job. i believe this is something that is a real change from a few years back when a sick pay system was part of every employers'responsibility.

i've been in hospital in cumbria and -10 years back -in aberdeen. the difference in staffing and resources is shocking and very worrying.

these are just a few major differences i've noticed. i've also read naomi klein 'the shock doctrine' so well understand that -since thatcher, reagan, pinochet and the 'chicago boys' that the free marketeers have been actively engaged in shrinking and privatising the state (all over the world) obviously, blair etc was complicit in this to some degree (PPI, privatisation, anti-trade union laws etc) but did at least try to fund services adequately. i don't think they should have used public funds to bail out the corrupt capitalist system - but it was quite good (if expensive) satire. and what thanks do they get?
these days, of course we will lose important parts of what makes our country a good place to live. i never thought i would miss those old tory wets - but i do. i see no prominent figure in the current government who sees the need to speak to 'one nation' britain, and no-one trying to put a break on their extremism. they have no interest in the result of their policies or how they effect those less fortunate than themselves.
those people can push for the right to drop bombs on our allies in syria in the hope of hitting an occasional enemy target. i don't think it will go that far with the poorer parts of this country but the contempt for people is not much different....

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:29 PM

Well, that clears up whose side Akenhateon is on - and it's not that of everyman.

Nice to see Terribilis getting universally shat on for his lies and hatred.

Nice to see Mither regretting his former Bliarism.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:04 PM

Achmelvich....who exactly are "our allies in Syria"? Are they the same allies we had in Libya?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:14 PM

Richard, I don't see the "game/war" as between Labour and Tory, that is for dim wits.

I suppose you have worked that out, but oh well cant pass up the chance for a bit of name calling, can we.

People like you are the problem, but I don't suppose you really want change either.....better add lawyers to my list.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:56 PM

Get real, Teribus. If you don't pay the private landlord the housing benefit money you receive, you get evicted. It may pass through your hands but the landlord will make damn sure he gets all of it off you. He knows what you get, he thinks it's rightfully his and there are no controls on him. By far the biggest beneficiaries of our having a welfare state are the landlords, the loan sharks and the big companies who don't pay decent wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 08:39 PM

That's a total straw man Akenhateon - throw your lot in with Terribilis and you are the enemy of everyman - nothing to do with (as our UKRAP friends would say) "LibLabCon".

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:44 AM

'our allies in syria' are ordinary people there who only want to live in peace in a functioning democracy. not david cameron's imaginary moderate army.
they have close links with hundreds of thousands of iraqis who we carpet bombed in order to liberate them from saddam hussein.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:11 AM

I have lots of regrets Bridge. Mainly when I foolishly took on legal advice on many occasions against my better judgement.

But with regard to Bliarism, I voted and hoped for a pragmatic government that realised the role of government includes looking after everybody but also realised where the funds to do so come from.

I wasn't wrong.

A bit like when you were a Tory. You saw the logic of one nation. Me? I would never ever sink as low as voting Tory though. Unlike you my weird friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:11 AM

No, Teribus, I'm not a serf - but then it's not just about me, me, me is it (like it probably is for you, you selfish Tory tw*t)? I got out of the work place 10 years ago - or rather I was pushed out through redundancy. Luckily, by that time, I had more or less paid off my mortgage and had accrued a decent pension. I was in the right place, at the right time, but I fear, for the generations that come after me, the world will become increasingly like the one depicted by achmelvich above.

And Akenaton, there HAS to be an alternative to evil Tory tw*tishness - people and the planet can't support rampant neo-liberalism for much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:13 AM

Bear in mind, Mither, that back when I was young and foolish, "one-nation" conservatives were in general further left than Tony B. Liar, who badly failed to reverse conservative rhetoric or to provide effectively for those at the bottom of the heap. You got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:24 AM

Shimrod, Of course there is an alternative, but the "liberals" hate it even more than they hate the Conservatives :0) Why??

There was this guy Cammpanela who lived six hundred years ago and he knew the answer

THE PEOPLE is a beast of muddy brain
That knows not its own strength, and therefore stands
Loaded with wood and stone; the powerless hands
Of a mere child guide it with bit and rein;
One kick would be enough to break the chain,         5
But the beast fears, and what the child demands
It does; nor its own terror understands,
Confused and stupefied by bugbears vain.
Most wonderful! With its own hand it ties
And gags itself—gives itself death and war         10
For pence doled out by kings from its own store.
Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:26 AM

"I haven't voted Labour since Blair."

Since Blair left office? Which would make it 2007 so old Shim would have voted Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005.

Or since Blair became leader of the party - Shimrod was somewhat less than clear - seems to be endemic and Shimrod hasn't seen fit to clarify.

Steve Shaw - 30 Nov 15 - 07:56 PM - Ehmmm NO Steve, any idea how long it takes to evict someone? Can take months. Cases of tenants arriving in one place, getting placed by the council then spending their "housing benefit" on anything but housing and not paying landlords. Eviction procedures then put in train, taking up to five months to effect eviction in which time not a penny is paid. The tenants then leave the property in such a state the landlord has to completely redecorate and the tenants move to another place and repeat the exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:36 AM

"I was young and foolish..,"

At least you're not young any more Bridge.

We can't all get it right. After all, what is right for you isn't right for most, what is right for Akenaton isn't acceptable and what is right for Terribulus can be seen by the vindictive, devisive, blinkered government we have now.

Getting it right isn't easy. Steve Shaw supports Liverpool, for Clapton's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:49 AM

(Shimrod)- "I haven't voted Labour since Blair. I despise them as much as you do - but probably for different reasons." (The full quote)

(Territowelling) "Since Blair left office? Which would make it 2007 so old Shim would have voted Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005"

Try again Teribums, if Shimrod hasn't voted labour since Blair he would NOT have voted labour in 1997, 2001, 2005 or even 2007 because Blair didn't resign until AFTER the election.

You are very much like your mate, twisting words to your own warped logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:24 AM

Hi Raggy, just for once in your life try to use a bit of reasoning and logic for a change. Are you really trying to tell us that Shimrod - ardent supporter of the left (According to his statements) after 18 years of Conservative Governments in 1997 with Blair leading the Labour Party Shimrod did not vote to do everything he could to ensure a Labour victory?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:36 AM

If Shimrod says he hasn't voted Labour since Blair why should I disbelieve him.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:43 AM

"Hasn't voted since Blair" WHAT?

That's your trouble Raggy you believe absolutely everything you want to and you question nothing. Reasoning, logic and commonsense do not ever enter the equation with you do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:49 AM

That is bloody rich coming from you Teribums, rich indeed. Go back to your Daily Mail it's about your level.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:57 AM

Ehmmm Raggy (Who is Raggytash on any thread other than any thread on the First World War because he made a complete and utter twat of himself there) unlike you any opinion I hold on any subject I can justify, and I am fully prepared to discuss with anybody the reasons I hold that opinion. Unlike you I DO tend to question things, I do employ reasoning, logic and commonsense before I form an opinion on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:36 AM

The important thing, Mither, is that you are still a traitor who supported Thatcher's own enemy within the NUM during the miners' strike, and still a foolish follower of B.Liar.

Terribilis, your views all seem to flow from your main apparent belief that the lower orders (and Johnny Foreigner) - and the ordinary soldier - should know their place. That is not acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:20 AM

"your views all seem to flow from your main apparent belief that the lower orders (and Johnny Foreigner) - and the ordinary soldier - should know their place."

Really Bridge - "seem to", "apparent" - Hate to bring it to your attention but your side of the political spectrum are the ONLY ones who witter on about "the lower orders" - to me no such category exists - you appear to be the only one banging on about people "knowing their place". Your post is an attempt to put me in mine.

You could of course confound us all on this forum by actually follow up your idiotic and baseless allegation by coming up with some substantiation - but I won't hold my breath. All in all that last post of yours is just yet another cowardly hit and run, which to me on this forum is water off a ducks back, all you are succeeding in doing is demeaning yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:58 AM

You see, there's the problem Bridge. Whilst you were at your public school, privilege and Law School, learning how to prey on misery as a solicitor whilst voting Tory, I actually was a striking miner. Like 97% of all NUM members, I went back when Scargill's criminality and exploiting us for his own narrow political gains became apparent to us all.

Funny how he dare not show his face in Barnsley these days. Most of us equate the crook with his stable mate Th*tcher. He delivered her agenda perfectly. His legal team kept his corruption quiet for him for years. Makes you proud to have your articles eh?

Supporting Th*tcher is something you did. I actually was "the enemy within" and some of us actually did the sacrifice (lost my home, bailiffs asking us to choose between keeping pram or pushchair) that you could only sit and dream of whilst quaffing Chateau Reynella at black tie Law Society dinners.

I had two bottles of champagne. One called Margaret that has now been drunk and before long, I can pop the cork on Arthur. Armchair socialists need not apply for a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 01:36 PM

"Are you really trying to tell us that Shimrod - ardent supporter of the left (According to his statements) after 18 years of Conservative Governments in 1997 with Blair leading the Labour Party Shimrod did not vote to do everything he could to ensure a Labour victory?"

If I remember correctly, Teribus, you nit-picking Tory toe-rag, I have not voted Labour since the end of Blair's first term. Happy now?

I certainly wouldn't describe myself as "an ardent supporter of the left". Your side of the political spectrum are the ONLY ones who witter on about "ardent supporters of the left" ...

Actually, I believe in social justice and equality of opportunity - but, above all, I'm an (ardent) environmentalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:14 PM

I don't suppose you are going to offer an apology are you Teribus.

I can live in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:01 PM

Well thank you very mush for that clarification Shimrod - now lets hear from the rest of the gang - apologies would be nice as they seem to be so much into them - If they are wondering what they apologising for - HEY GUYS SHIMROD VOTED FOR BLAIR - GOT THAT.

And my guess is that he voted for Labour after that more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:32 PM

Mither, you seem to know very little about lawyers. You also seem to have no current or recent affinity for socialism, and no historical understanding of Scargill. You persistently advocate for the miners who undermined the strike, whose views on the bitch Thatcher are now shown as justified as her political spawn demolish the welfare state, and you brag about your current wealth. Ignorant turncoat braggart. Not a pretty picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:50 PM

Oh, and PS - pram and pushchair? There's posh. Jacqui and I only ever had one pushchair, and that was second hand and patched up.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:51 PM

PPS - badly expressed above. It was the views of the strikers that are now shown as justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:24 PM

"Jacqui and I only ever had one pushchair, and that was second hand and patched up."

If it was early 80s you may have bought it off me. Was it a McClaren and did it have a dishonestly bodged-back-on front wheel?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Rhuddlan
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 01:43 AM

Cradled in a manger, meanly,
Laid the Son of Man His head;
Sleeping His first earthly slumber
Where the oxen had been fed.
Happy were those shepherds listening
To the holy angel's word;
Happy they within that stable
Worshipping their infant Lord.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 02:45 AM

"And my guess is that he voted for Labour after that more than once."

So desperate now that you're calling me a liar, eh, Teribus?

I can confidently assert that I've not voted Labour since the end of Blair's first term.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:27 AM

No. That's the one Musket's bailiffs refused to take. 😄

On the day "the miners went back" it was significant that in the Yorkshire region alone, there were less men at work than the previous weekday. (BBC documentary.) It appears that almost every man had decided to stop supporting Scargill and Thatcher in their combined plan to shut the industry.

Calling miners Thatcher supporters goes to show how disconnected men of privilege such as George Osborne and Richard Bridge really are. Both claim empathy with real people, both claim to have met real people but both let their extreme ideology get in the way of understanding real people.

I do get confused, I don't know which Musket that was above, but no matter because even if Richard Bridge posted anonymously, it had his confusion written all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:31 AM

Thanks for the clarification, pity that you weren't so candid when you first posted about it. Wonder which pin the usual suspects will select next to hold their masked ball on.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 09:23 AM

Wrong again, Mither and Blether and together (whichever ones you are). And wrong again Terribilis. Maybe the four of you should stick together, with Akenhateon, you seem to have as much grasp on reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM

11th Commandment:
"All good threads shall endeth up in a pissing match".

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 10:44 AM

" ... pity that you weren't so candid when you first posted about it."

Oh, sorry, Teribus! I hadn't realised that I was obliged to display candour by revealing the exact details of my voting record to you!

I suppose that, as a mere member of the lower orders, I've still got to learn where my place is ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 11:14 AM

Sol the 11th Commandent is:





Thou shalt not get caught

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:20 PM

Clarity in either speech or in writing isn't really all that difficult Shimrod - Personally I couldn't give two hoots who you vote for as long as the other party get in - now more or less a foregone conclusion with Corbyn leading the opposition.

"I suppose that, as a mere member of the lower orders, I've still got to learn where my place is ... ?" - yours words Shimrod so whatever turns you on - the only person on this forum I have ever heard call someone a "pleb" was Raggytash - typical of a Champagne/Islington Socialist is it Shimrod?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:54 PM

Plebs were free citizens who were not Patricians. I think most of us are Plebs.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:39 PM

Don't be so disingenuous Dave - you know as well as I do that the way the word was used by Raggy was as an insult. But I still maintain that it is only the left that go on about under-class, people "knowing their place" they do that as they have to keep class hatred alive to maintain their voter base.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 09:20 AM

Don't be daft, Terribilis, try listening to the Etonians in stead of kissing their arses.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:41 PM

You can reduce the queue for benefits by making them stand closer together!!

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:19 AM

Big difference between me and thee Bridge is that I do not believe a single word ANY politician says - next down the list comes lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:24 AM

Why would you believe any politician when you can record your own voice eh?

Ignorance is bliss Terribilus.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 04:05 AM

GUEST - 04 Dec 15 - 03:24 AM, what on earth are you wittering on about now GHOST? One thing you are doing thankfully is illustrating to everyone on this forum what a complete and utter waste of space you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:02 AM

Aye I'm with you there Teribus....on politicians and lawyers.

And on un-named guests who have nothing to say on the subject under discussion. Only inane insult and indecipherable "wit".

I don't agree with you about the best way to conduct the campaign against the Jihad i's.
Constructing a western coalition to oppose Russia and Assad's troops seems crazy.......the opportunity is there to form a United front against ISIS including a proper army of ground troops...and as I have said already co-operation over THIS issue could lead to further progress between West and East over trade, climate change and many other issues
Putin has already offered to join such a coalition under the UN banner

Regarding Assad, he has been battling these scum for years....and I don't suppose that someone with your knowledge would visualise a "liberal democratic government" surviving in Syria should he be forcibly removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:15 AM

Assad- a "liberal democratic government"? - Give me one of whatever he's drinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:42 AM

Greg, I never said that Assad leads a "liberal democratic government", if he did he would have been beheaded years ago and the Caliphate would include the whole of Syria.
What I did say, was that the West pretend that a "liberal democratic government" can survive.

It did not come to pass in Egypt, Libya, or Iraq, why should it be different in Syria?

On a more personal note, your posts on other subjects are getting you into trouble and you seem to be losing concentration on this one, take a couple of days off to collect your thoughts or you will end up like some of the sad GUESTS who are reduced to mindless insult.

I do respect your plain speaking here and you are not a bitter ideologist like some UKers......just friendly advice Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 10:58 AM

your posts on other subjects are getting you into trouble

I know, Ake - some folks seem to want me stop being "divisive" and adopt the same line as the howling mob of Muslim-baiting, racist, hysterical Islamophobes and the Republican pond scum vying for the Presidental nomination. Go figure.

By the way- when was the last time one of the media jackals, after a murderous rampage, bombing, or arson attack on a Planned Parenthood facility, shoved a microphone in the face of a Catholic priest or Protestant minister and asked if the murderer/bomber/etc was "radicalized" in the individual's church?

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:55 PM

No Greg, some could live without your nasty and divisive comments. No suggestion was made by me as the religion of the attackers in California. You opening post suggested, quite clearly, a religious component..ie Christian. You jumped to a conclusion and were taken to task for it by a number of people, including a moderator who felt, with some justification, that you had put a spin on something which you clearly had no information about. Disagreeing with you does not mean people are racist, republican or islamophobic..it just means they disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reducing the UK welfare bill
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:19 PM

Maybe you can answer this, Hi, in Ake's absence:

When was the last time one of the media jackals, after a murderous rampage, bombing, or arson attack on a Planned Parenthood facility, shoved a microphone in the face of a Catholic priest or Protestant minister and asked if the murderer/bomber/etc was "radicalized" in the individual's church?