BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?

Subject: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 05:24 PM

Too early to tell, but it sure looks like it:

At least 4 officers, multiple civilians injured in ongoing active shooter situation at Planned Parenthood

Colorado Springs police spokeswoman says, "We still have a gunman that is out there."

By Jesse Paul, Jordan Steffen and John Ingold, The Denver Post


Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:34 PM

What has this to do with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:43 PM

We shall see. Greg has reported this without making any assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:55 PM

Greg is making an assertion simply by his posting and the assertion is (as usual) that there is equivalence with Christian and Islamist terrorism. Here is a list of Islamist terrorism attacks since 1982. Now show us a list of Christian terrorist attacks from the same period.


    Lebanon November 11, 1982 – Tyre headquarters bombings. 91 dead. 55 injured.[citation needed]....

---

Quotation deleted - it was an unattributed list of Islamist terrorist attacks from Wikipedia, that covers several screens. The entire text can be found here (click) -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:59 PM

I don't suppose it has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus, Ebor. I did not see anything in the article that said the assailant identified as Christian either.   But Greg did put a ? Mark on the end, so we cannot assume this is an anti Christian OP can we........

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:01 PM

No, we can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:03 PM

I guess you haven't been paying much attention to Greg F's posts then.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:28 PM

A bit premature to say anything about this. In a statement, Planned Parenthood said it was not yet clear "if Planned Parenthood was in fact the target of this attack". (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:57 PM

Greg is making an assertion simply by his posting and the assertion is (as usual) that there is equivalence with Christian and Islamist terrorism.

Horseshit. I never asserted - and do not assert- any such "equivalence".

You could have saved all the time spent with that cut-n-paste garbage. But I suppose it was cathartic for you, Beardie or Beardie-Clone, even though it recapitulates your usual assertion that the Israeli government is totally blameless, whatever it may get up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:07 PM



(CNN)[Breaking news alert, posted at 8:30 p.m. ET Friday]
A police officer shot during Friday's siege at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs has died, the Colorado Fraternal Order of Police said on Twitter.

Updated at 8:34 p.m.:
At least 11 people, including five police officers, were injured when a gunman attacked a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado on Friday. Officials noted the number could rise as they secure and process the crime scene, while the Colorado Attorney General's office tweeted that there was a "tragic loss of life." Police captured the suspected gunman at 4:52 p.m. local time; his identity remains unknown.

The Colorado Springs clinic is not the first Planned Parenthood facility to come under attack this year. On October 1, an unknown arsonist threw an ignited container of gasoline inside one of the organization's centers in Southern California. The Southern Poverty Law Center identified three similar incidents at Planned Parenthood facilities in Illinois, Louisiana, and Washington in recent months. In September, the FBI warned law-enforcement agencies throughout the country about "lone offenders using tactics of arsons and threats all of which are typical of the pro-life extremist movement."

NB: The "pro-life extremest movement" is overwhelmingly comprised of those who claim to be Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:31 PM

Oh Guest, I pay plenty of attention to Greg's posts. At times I feel humbled. He can say in one line something that takes me twenty lines. Apart from Dave the Gnome, who lives uncomfortably close to my place of origin so I have to be nice to him( ;-)), Greg is the man I would buy a pint or six for any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 10:19 PM

The leaders of Planned Parenthood are wisely withholding judgment. They have nothing to gain by making a premature statement. Most likely, the assailant is an anti-abortion, right-wing, Christian extremist - but we don't know that for sure. Still, the right-wing Christians, even the non-violent ones, have targeted Planned Parenthood unfairly for decades. They completely ignore all the good that Planned Parenthood does for women in need in the United States. I frequently speak out in Catholic circles in support of the good work done by Planned Parenthood, but I know I'm taking a risk every time I say something favorable about Planned Parenthood.

Please note that there are also Christians who have a very favorable opinion of Planned Parenthood. I'm one of them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 10:39 PM

your usual assertion that the Israeli government is totally blameless,

Ha, ha, ha.....bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:03 AM

I'm sure Greg is making the point that Islamist is removed from Islam too, but try telling that to people who are gullible enough to mistrust people based on their heritage. The words purposely sound similar.

Mind you, these US terrorists get their justification from distorting religious views on when a chemical reaction becomes one of Jesus's sunbeams.

Terrorists all the same.

A pity because away from criminals, debate on the important topic of abortion can never be had whilst ever idiots think their invisible friend has a valid point to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:43 AM

This incident has about as much to do with Jesus as Islamist terrorism has to do with Allah - nothing whatsoever - both are cases of extremists using religion as an excuse for their extremism, and crass arguments like "your terrorism is nastier than my terrorism" doesn't hack it.
All religions, by their very nature, are open to abuse, and all the major religions have a track record of terrorism, abuse and persecution going back centuries - Christianity is one of the front runners in the Abuse Stakes historically.
The fact that some religious fanatics are less abusive than others at the present time is immaterial - they all hang there like a Sword of Damocles waiting to be misused by one bunch of nutters or another - don't turn your back on any of them!
One thing is certain - religion and politics is a toxic mix, as what is happening today is proving every time we open a newspaper or switch on the news.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Bobby
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:36 AM

Should ISIS execute all those Christian bigots?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 07:02 AM

any 'christians' around who are urging western powere to drop yet more bombs on possibly the most distressed and desperate innocent people on the planet , in the hope of killing a few terrorists, should really have a think about what their religion means. if they are prepared to tolerate the killing of syrian people are they any better than those (falsely) doing it in the name of another religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:38 AM

what?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:55 AM

Jim said
"All religions, by their very nature, are open to abuse, and all the major religions have a track record of terrorism, abuse and persecution going back centuries - Christianity is one of the front runners in the Abuse Stakes historically."

Some religions certainly. But Buddhism?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:59 AM

Look at what Buddhist governments have been doing to the Rohingya lately. Or the full-on genocide conducted by the Buddhist regime in Sri Lanka against the Tamil minority.

This was entirely in character with what Buddhism has done any time it was in power. Ashoka was as bloodthirsty as any other Indian king.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:00 AM

Still, the right-wing Christians, even the non-violent ones, have targeted Planned Parenthood unfairly for decades.

More than that, Carly Fiorina and the rest of the Republican presidential hopefuls (and their fellow-reptiles in Congress) most assuredly have blood on their hands for whipping up hatred by inventing and supporting the current "de-fund Planned Parenthood" campaign based on bogus videos, lies and bullshit, to gain the political support of right-wing lunatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:37 AM

"Some religions certainly. But Buddhism?"
I have had the same regard for Buddhists as I have for Quakers (without accepting their religious beliefs) up to the Myanmar anti-Muslim riots 2013
Since then, I came to the opinion that most religions are capable of intolerance when in the wrong hands.
"Should ISIS execute all those Christian bigots?"
Wonder what promoted this extraordinary suggestion!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM

Colorado Springs : a playground for pro-life, pro-gun, evangelical christians

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:29 AM

Attorneys and barristers are for ever "asserting" and they are only allowed to ask questions. & they will plead rights. Yea right!

Whatever the motive, the effect is to ally "terrorist" with "christian".

"Planned Parenthood" sounds like there is religion hovering around but who knows? Here in the UK we marvel at the "killing to preserve life" scenario, but we have our cranks and bigots on many issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:07 PM

The Guardian report is shocking in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM

...but we have our cranks and bigots on many issues.

But at least they don't have firearms...

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:06 PM

I still haven't seen any information on the shooter. I wonder who he was.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:10 PM

'Nothing with him was very cognitive': Details emerge on suspect in Colorado Planned Parenthood killing.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:58 PM

Best to wait.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 05:57 PM

Wait for what? For his reasoning? The guy is obviously a nut case. Here's some stuff on him from the NY Times

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:10 PM

NBC News
Nov 28 2015, 5:33 pm ET

In one statement, made after the suspect was taken in for questioning, Dear said "no more baby parts" in reference to Planned Parenthood, according to two law enforcement sources with knowledge of the case.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:51 PM

Well, maybe he was just mental or maybe he was a manic anti-abortionist. Time may tell. But there are broader issues, at least two. First, that Colorado seems like bandit country apropos of your gun laws. Second, an abortion clinic has had to turn itself into a fortress. Where's the outrage, yanks, please?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:58 PM

There's nothing in the minor incidents in the Times article "Guest" linked to to indicate he's a "nut case" or "mental", any more than a good segment of the population is. I've had neighbors like him & I suspect most people have as well.

What IS apparent is that he was inspired by the lies perpetrated by Carly Fiorina and the rest of the Republican Pcs Of S.

Hope thay're happy

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:47 PM

My money is with GregF on this one-I find it a bit annoying that people are trying to discourage the obvious conclusion. The FBI recently sent out warnings that Planned Parenthood Clinics were in danger of terrorist attack, and This is the fifth in assaults on PP clinics since the fraudulent "Baby Parts" video was released this Summer--and it is more likely than not connected--it would be perilous to ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:31 PM

"Planned Parenthood Shooting Wasn't the First — And It Won't Be the Last.
The GOP's odious anti-Planned Parenthood rhetoric, done solely for political points, has real-world consequences."

Interesting article Here

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:42 PM

Steve, I'm not sure that outrage is the game to play in this one, despite the fact that there certainly is good cause for outrage. The gun promoters and the anti-abortion people and other right-wingers play that game all the time here in the U.S., to the point where "outrage" has lost its credibility. We get outrage all the time from FoxNews. We have no room for more.

Quiet, steady, rational wisdom - expressed consistently - would seem to be a more effective response. And we do that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:16 PM

He is quoted as stating that the [unproven] videos about baby parts [aka fetal tissue] motivated his acts. So far there are two dead [including one peace officer who responded to the call out of an active shooting incident] in this attack.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:03 AM

Steve is right in his comment about 'Best to Wait'. There's a lot we don't know. For example, none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian. Maybe he is, maybe not. But making the link in the headline until we know is presumptuous. Equally, bringing in the GOP (who I don't support at all, by the way), when he seems not to be affliated with any party is too early.

Let's wait for the hearings.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:26 AM

none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian

It's irrelevant whether he is or not. The ideology he's fighting for is one created and promoted by a Christian faction. He's one of their soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:34 AM

I don't think we know he's fighting for anything. The threadbare reports we have have say he had shown no interest in the topic beforehand and that he is not coherent now.

Now if the claim was that there were Christian groups that support this sort o action I'd agree, but point out that many Christian s oppose it and many more condemn such violence whatever their other views

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM

"Steve, I'm not sure that outrage is the game to play in this one, despite the fact that there certainly is good cause for outrage. The gun promoters and the anti-abortion people and other right-wingers play that game all the time here in the U.S., to the point where "outrage" has lost its credibility. We get outrage all the time from FoxNews. We have no room for more.

Quiet, steady, rational wisdom - expressed consistently - would seem to be a more effective response. And we do that."

Well yes, but have you got any evidence that this works? Have you read the Guardian piece? The approach isn't working at all well in Colorado by the looks of it. I'm afraid that, from here, it looks like your nation takes a rather weak-kneed approach to powerful lobby groups, whether they be evangelists, gun fanciers, anti-abortionists, big corporations or Israel supporters. The upshot is almost half the country not believing in evolution, gun crime and mass killings out of control, vulnerable women and medical staff under siege in clinics, the most polluting nation on earth per capita and a constant running sore in the Middle East. Not saying that similar issues don't pop up elsewhere.   They do. But from here it's hard to see exactly who's running your country.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:40 AM

none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian

You miss this report?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/us/robert-dear-suspect-in-colorado-killings-preferred-to-be-left-alone.html

The younger Mr. Dear was raised as a Baptist, Ms. Ross[his former wife] said in an interview in Goose Creek, S.C., where she now lives. He was religious but not a regular churchgoer, a believer but not one to harp on religion. "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover."

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:49 AM

You miss this report?
Yes. Or maybe it hadn't been published when I looked, but either way I hadn't seen it.

I would expect more information on background to come out over time like this. As I said above Maybe he is, maybe not. But making the link in the headline until we know is presumptuous.

We now have some anecdotal evidence he is and no doubt more will arrive. Even so, I still hold it was presumptuous, though there now is accumulating evidence the guess was right.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:32 AM

It's all fine to be beating around the bush and taking care being seen as not jumping to conclusions but I think Jack above is pretty much on the mark: it would seem obvious which parties created an atmosphere in which such an attack would seem justified to some.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:39 AM

It is the danger of 'it would seem obvious' that concerns me. Too many miscarriages of justice and outbreaks of violence arise because of what seems obvious. Evidence first, then action in my book. Once you have the evidence, it is a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:58 AM

Too many miscarriages of justice and outbreaks of violence arise because of what seems obvious.

What's obvious is that there are dead and wonded people, the attack was in fact directed at a Planned Parenthood office and the perp. said "no more body parts".

The perp's. ex wife's statement that "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover." would seem pretty conclusive to me - and she a reliable witness.

What sort of evidence would you have?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:11 AM


What's obvious is that there are dead and wounded people, the attack was in fact directed at a Planned Parenthood office and the perp. said "no more body parts".

Agreed. He is a criminal and he is opposed to abortion. Not enough in that say he is a Christian ...


The perp's. ex wife's statement that "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover." would seem pretty conclusive to me - and she a reliable witness.

Now we have some evidence he is a Christian. As I said a post or two above, that was not in the articles I read when I made the post we are talking about, I accepted I hadn't read it and now have and that affects my opinion.

What sort of evidence would you have?
The sort of evidence we have now. Which was not around, as far as I can tell, when the thread was titled.

BUT I am still opposed to leaping to conclusions until such evidence - which we now have - is available.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:20 AM

"When the thread was titled", there was a penultimate question mark. You apparently missed that as well.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:32 AM

No, I didn't miss the question mark. But as a few of the opening posts point out, that's not really a get-out, because you have made the association.

We could go through the same thing on the word 'terrorist' as well (and did the question mark qualify 'Christian' or 'terrorist'? Who can tell?) I don't think it helpful to call every shooter a terrorist, and although this guy seems to have swallowed the anti-abortion stuff, I have yet to see - and it may come, I can't read everything! - anything to suggest he was more than an individual acting alone.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:45 AM

So if you're acting alone to commit an act of terrorism, you're not a terrorist.

Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.

that's not really a get-out, because you have made the association.

I'm not looking for a "get-out". Anyone with a modicum of knowledge of the past history of these kinds of terrorist attacks on Planned Parenthood and assassinations of physicians who perform abortions & eyc. by self-styled "Christians" PLUS the recent flood of vicious hate speech by Republican presidential candidates and their fellow GOP reptiles would find it impossible NOT to "make the association".

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:47 AM

Let me go further. There are people who picket these centres and harangue the women who go to them with the express intentions of making other women fearful to go to them. I have no qualms about saying that is terrorism, even if no actual violence takes place. And, if organised by a Christian group, then I'd willing call that Christian terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:48 AM

Correction:

Make that "...Republican presidential candidates and their fellow GOP reptiles WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS AND BRAG ABOUT SAME.."

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:50 AM

And, if organised by a Christian group

What in Clapton's name has "a group" got to do with it?

Again, So if you're acting alone to commit an act of terrorism, you're not a terrorist?

Ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:55 AM

So if you're acting alone to commit an act of terrorism, you're not a terrorist.

Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.

I will explain. In my view, which may not be everyone's I admit, an act of violence in isolation is not terrorism. The terrorism arises from the implication it can happen again. The Paris attack moves from a vicious act of violence by a few guys to terrorism because there is a group saying whatever you do to the guys doesn't matter: understand that every capital city, every small town, every isolated villages is also under threat. It is creating that dread that is the terrorism. And one guy acting alone who gets caught or killed can't do that.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:16 AM

Times have changed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman . Whitman wasn't once called a terrorist back then. He was called a killer. I think sometimes that our thoughts are formed based on the vocabularies we choose from.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Grammar
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:18 AM

Penultimate: check a dictionary Greg

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:16 PM

But at least they don't have firearms...

Hmmmm sort of! Cranks I might agree with you, except for the fact that it is not impossible to obtain various firearms legally, notably members of shooting clubs and shotguns. I was shocked to see a shop in Barton St Gloucester displaying guns for sail, including (automatic ?) pistols for about 150GBP, in the window. Hardly going to be dummies, might be air pistols but it didn't say so. There were air rifles too.
Barton St has a reputation!

Anyway there are those shockingly young kids guilty of killing, rare but far more shocking because of their lack of responsibility & indiscriminate shooting.

We may feel a bit safer, but there is no room for being smug.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:38 PM

Terrorist, n. Person with a gun solely distinguishable from another with a gun based on the intended use of the implement. A term popularized by President GW Bush to focus the gaze and attention of the electorate who then willingly funded a vague war on same, much to Richard 'Dick' Cheney's surprise.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:20 PM

Religious terrorist, compound n. Individual who ascribes his motives to an invisible entity, one to whom he often refers but never introduces in person.

Synonym, see the monograph entitled Recombinant DNA, Gene Splicing and the Social Fallout from Experiments Gone Wrong.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:47 PM

An interesting article worth reading.

http://reverbpress.com/religion/abortion-rates-highest-among-christians-according-stunning-survey-results/

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:10 PM

Well that's hardly surprising, as just about every Catholic edict supports unwanted pregnancy. Ignorance, mysogyny, abstinence (ha bloody ha), no birth control, not even the withdrawal method. The Catholic Church is the champion of abortion, and their greatest flag-flyer, Mother Teresa, is about to be made a saint.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:30 PM

The survey took place in the US where most people declare themselves Christian anyway, so the simple raw percentages presented can be misleading. But my guess would be that there wouldn't be very much difference in the ratios across the various religions and none. because for most people the decisions are based on the circumstances they are in.

But please, can we avoid the same old arguments all over again? Let's stick to the Planned Parenthood crimes and it's implications without going over Mother Teresa and all that, having already done so more times than I care to remember.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:42 PM

OK, I half-promise not to mention her again. You can half-hold me to that. Unfortunately, what I say is true. Catholic teaching, which opposes good sex education, contraception and equality for women, and which, ridiculously, recommends abstinence, might just as well be saying that it positively encourages unwanted pregnancy. Thirty years ago, it was our club, yours and mine. I couldn't stomach that kind of illiberalism, etc., so I got out, but you're still in it. It's your club. Do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:03 PM

Your comments have been noted!

But earlier you will have noticed, I hope, that I consider even non-violent harassment of women attending these clinics to be terrorism. Violent harassment is a more severe form obviously, but as the intention is to induce fear of attending a clinic anywhere violent.or non-violent fit my definition.

Do.you agree, or do you think that is too strong a condemnation?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:18 PM

I think that protests of any kind outside abortion clinics should be illegal. Terrorism is a word whose meaning has become degraded. Harassment, threatening behaviour and violent attacks by deranged individuals is not what I see as terrorism. Terrorism is a bit more organised than that. And it isn't freedom fighting either. If attacks on women at clinics is organised and planned in advance, then that could be a form of terrorism if violence is intended. Let's just decide what's right and what's wrong. But let's also accept that this thread is about abortion, whether you and the mods like it or not. It was an attack on an abortion clinic. It can either be discussed or not. That's up to the Mudcat powers that be. But, if discussion is allowed, we must be free to discuss where the root of the issue may lie. Sorry to say this, but Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular have a lot to answer for. The only way to make them not answer is to close the thread.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:32 PM

I agree terrorism is in some sense organised, so one clinic doesn't meet the criteria, any more than one shooter. But if there is some organisation coordinating protests or bussing protesters from one site to another that crosses the line for me. In truth I would prefer a different term: inculcating fear, for example. But none of the obvious alternatives - harassment, bullying and so on - seem strong enough to me.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:52 PM

Oh, and I agree the thread is about abortion, or more specifically the right to it and those who would deny that right. That's a big enough topic without worrying what the Pope does or doesn't say about condoms.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:53 PM

Like I said, let's decide what's right and what's wrong. We can wrangle all day about labels. I'm beginning to feel slightly cross with myself for half-promising to not mention Mother Teresa. Depending on circumstances, I may retract. There comes a time when we have to ask ourselves in all honesty what foments these incidents. Well, it's religion. If you disagree, then tell me what else. And, in the US of A, it's your religion, mainly. I don't know where this fellow got his ideas from. I do wonder what M**th*r T****a might have said had she still been around. Judging from her infamous speech in Ireland, and what she said about the victims of Bhopal, not to speak of her friendly dealings with the Duvaliers, I can't help thinking that this saintly woman might not exactly have been on the side of the clinic. As I said, it's your club, and your club is a massive part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 07:01 PM

" That's a big enough topic without worrying what the Pope does or doesn't say about condoms."

Er, well, if the Pope were to enthusiastically recommend the use of condoms, etc. (as he should), not to speak of promoting good sex education (as he should), not to speak of promoting education on family planning (as he should), not to speak of promoting equality for women (as he should), not to speak of dropping the silly ideas about abstinence that militate against human nature (as he should), then this topic wouldn't be quite the big topic that it is now.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 07:11 PM

Greg, I thought you'd get a kick outta this article.

http://thegoodlordabove.com/articles/details/152

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 07:27 PM

That is totally brilliant, Guest#. It's almost not funny, if you see what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 07:42 PM

Going back a few posts, this thread is not about abortion. It IS about a person who may or may not be a Christian fundamentalist who decided to shoot up a medical clinic where some abortions are performed after having been incited by specious information from a Republican candidate for President of the US.

Wasn't it Oliver Wendell Holmes who said that freedom of speech does not include the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater? How does that differ from inciting violence as part of a political campaign? Perhaps Carly Fiorino and Donald Trump should be hauled in and charged for inciting their followers to commit violent acts. Wouldn't that make an interesting kettle of fish?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:20 PM

Er, it's about a man who shot up an abortion clinic for deranged ideological motives. Motives which may be explored properly only if religion is brought into consideration. I know it's uncomfortable. But it really is about abortion.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:22 PM

"It's almost not funny, if you see what I mean."

Oh, yeah. Steve, if you followed what Republicans say--trust me, it's not worth your time--you would despair for all of the USA. The Tea Party Republicans are certifiable. No kidding. As EBarnacle said, "Perhaps Carly Fiorino and Donald Trump should be hauled in and charged for inciting their followers to commit violent acts." Truer words . . .

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,John Scarlett
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:39 PM

I took a kettle large and new,
Fit for the deed I had to do.
My heart went hop, my heart went thump;
I filled the kettle at the pump.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:19 PM

IT's really all about the far right's insistence that bad guys should be identified as "Muslim Extremist Terrorists". Sauce for the goose...and equally unfair to non-extrwemists.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:04 AM

# says: Times have changed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman . Whitman wasn't once called a terrorist back then. He was called a killer. I think sometimes that our thoughts are formed based on the vocabularies we choose from.


Many people in this thread are working hard to put a label on this guy. And the deal with labels, is that then it's considered OK to blame the crime on anyone who can get pinned with the same label.

Seems to me that if a person is working alone, he can be called a "killer," nothing more. If he is working as a representative an organization that hopes to accomplish a political goal with the crime, then he can be called a "terrorist."

The word "terrorist" gets thrown around too easily nowadays. As somebody pointed out above, that practice apparently began with George W. Bush.

The trouble is, if this guy were Muslim, the entire world would be calling him a "Muslim terrorist."

But it seems to me that if it's an individual not working on behalf of an organization, the term "terrorist" doesn't fit.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:22 AM

What's this about?
Cruz countered, "It's also been reported that he was registered as an independent and a woman and transgendered leftist activist, if that's what he is."

Dear's voter registration, where he is listed as a woman, was uncovered by the Gateway Pundit, a self-described "right-of-center news website."

"We know that he was a man who was registered to vote as a woman," Cruz said. "

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:05 AM

He is what he is and his motives are what they are.

The problem with religions associating themselves with opposing what is legal and in the eyes of many a necessary service is that they give an amount of credence to people with fucked up minds. Inevitable when your recruitment drive is based on preying upon vulnerable fucked up minds in the first place.

This madman does not represent Christianity any more than ISIS represents Islam. But every time an employee of a church with a dog collar tells his flock that abortion is wrong coupled by telling them there is a higher authority than the laws your representatives make, well let's just say gullibility and believing what the employee tells you is part of the social conditioning.

Unfortunate consequences eh?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:16 AM

So, according to musket, if it is a law made by your "representative" it must be right, eh ! That's the trouble with atheists, they have no ultimate standard to make a call on moral standards , but equally they can make up or change prior standards as convenient. Of course, not every religious person is consistent either....anticipating that objection...but that is not the same as saying there is no standard.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:15 AM

"Is it wrong for to disobey that law?"
Absolutely not - if that law is an unjust one, especially when it involves something as intrinsically natural as sexuality.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:32 AM

I agree with you Jim, and reject Musket's view that "opposing what is legal" is always wrong.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:49 AM

So it is OK to reject a law you consider unjust, but only if you are an atheist?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 09:59 AM

Hi, Bruce & thanks for the thegoodlordabove.com article- nicely done!

Unfortunately (for me), its hard for me to chuckle at that sort of thing these days- the satire comes too damn painfully close to the truth & the thought that the Republican Party is now composed of dangerous mindless assholes - and dangerous mindless assholes with a groundswell of public support - is profoundly depressing.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 10:48 AM

Greg, the Republicans have no chance this election coming up. Trump's numbers are down to 12% right now btw. Seems he may have gone too far overboard for even Republican stomachs. The present dog and pony show is just that. Remember, all the official news agencies are talking about what sells 'papers', but that's beginning to backfire on the lot of them. The key in the US will be the same as the key we used in Canada: get younger people to vote. Other than a small lunatic fringe, most people are fair-minded and that fact alone sinks the GOP. The Democrats have to follow the Liberal strategy from our election on October 19: state your platform, be polite and get voters engaged. I knew they'd win although I was surprised by how much.

The Republicans are all wind. The rallying cries are beginning to sound pretty hollow even to their supporters. Their type of conservatism is failing badly because all it does is play to the hatreds and fears of their voters but offers no alternatives to those voters. The press agencies aligned with them are starting slowly to be laughing stocks. As much as we might want a self-declared lunatic as President just to see if we'd notice a change, people will vote wisely, provided we concentrate on the youth vote. If we do, the election is in the bag.

Generally, count on 45% of voters to go Rep, 45% to go Dem and all that needs be addressed is that floating 10% that is up for grabs. If the Dems have the brains god gave a turnip, you'll have Hillary most likely (although Bernie is the best candidate, imo). Want to win the election? Get out the vote.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:08 AM

Want to win the election? Get out the vote.

Workin' on it, Bruce. And I've got my fingers crossed.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:28 PM

Meanwhile, the high court in Belfast has called the church inspired abortion laws there an infringement of human rights. The Stormont government had said prior to the ruling that they have no plans to reform the law. Now it appears they will have to look again if they are to remain signatories to The International Convention on Human Rights. As they cannot opt out of that (Westminster decision) it looks like women who have been raped won't have to travel to England, Scotland or Wales any more to receive the care they need.

As Musket said, religious nonsense is not above real law.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 01:16 PM

WHOOOAAAH! Atheists, Pete7stars, are as capable of holding and maintaining notions moral and ethical as are theists or the card-carrying members of any "theistic" group. You are making a judgement:" they have no ultimate standard to make a call on moral standards , but equally they can make up or change prior standards".
Pete ~ you … [lack of appropriate term]. And we all know that no theists or card-carrying club members has|have EVER changed "prior standards".
[Lord's name in vain] Peter!
one does not need deity to have ethical standards
back 2 the mandolin, half hoping there's some glitch & this doesn't post. But I had a moral obligation to challenge this unsupported and unsupportable notion.
BS=BS I guess this is my contribution 2 the manurepile … dennis

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:50 PM

Whoooooah, yourself dr word. Did I say there were no atheists with moral standards ?!. But tell me what is your ultimate moral standard ? Or where does your moral obligation to challenge me come from ? My guess , is, it is subjective.. The nearest you got to a holy and authoritative text is Darwin and Dawkins and co. survival of the fittest anyone ! Certainly there are some very moral atheists....and there are Christians who are not,t they have a standard, but fail to live it.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:11 PM

Pete: no, you didn't. But go read what you DID say. Your self-righteousness is glowing even in your rebuttal. What has "holiness" to do with secular texts? I regard the "holy" books ~ of ALL religions ~ with the respect I accord to those who hold them sacred. I respect you also, Pete, despite my 'tone' in my post. Just, please, don't tell me what (or how) I think. Think it through a bit ~ slippery slope ahead ~ this sort of generalizing and stereotyping simply ain't very helpful … and your received "moral standards" are somehow 'objective'????? I take it you've got all the bases covered. Over and out. Peace. The truth _shall_ set you free.
keep on pickin'
dennis

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:47 PM

Think it through a bit

No chance.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 08:11 PM

Well if there's an ultimate authority on moral standards I think I'll stay paganistically immoral. For two thousand years the aficionados of the Bible's moral standards have downtrodden women so much that even today it's regarded as highly respectable to sanctimoniously deny the right of women to be priests, using disgusting, pseudo-profound arguments in oh-so-measured tones. Biblical moral standards haven't exactly done much for gay people either. And turning the other cheek can be terribly wrong, leaving people you may be responsible for protecting vulnerable to harm. And what kind of a world would it be if everybody gave all their stuff away? And how irresponsible to say that you shouldn't worry about providing for tomorrow. He obviously wasn't much of a family man. And, worst of all, you're blessed if you believe even though you haven't seen. That's about the most immoral advice in the whole book. But it's rubbed off very well on the Christian "educators" of children. That's what they still tell them!

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 01:58 AM

I think the best moral standards are rationally-based, imposed by an individual on himself, and not by some authority. Good morals should consider the welfare and well-being of the individual, his family and circle of friends, and his community - all in balance. I would think that by nature, morals should be something positive and beneficial.

I don't think it's necessarily bad for an external authority (especially parents of children) to impose standards of moral conduct when needed - but to my mind, a truly moral person is one who is self-directed, one who does moral things because they make sense to him.

But of course, we all know people whose moral compass is corrupted for one reason or another.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:27 AM

Fair comment, Dennis. You are quite right, I did,nt make it clear first time around that I was not claiming atheists cannot be moral.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:48 AM

First define terrorist.

Second, puzzle why things like Faux News call every killer who expresses himself to be Muslim a terrorist, but refuses to use the same term for killers who express themselves to be Xtian.

Third, where's that link to the Xtian cult leader who is actively saying that abortionists should fear for thier lives? I understand that in US law there may be a distinction between calling for an act of violence and merely encouraging it, a doctrine based on the judgments against the KKK some years ago.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:02 AM

Bad laws are bad and can and should be opposed.

Unfortunately, those who use their invisible friend on this thread as a guide twist what I put about there being no authority higher than government to say that I reckon government laws should never be opposed.

My previous two posts to clarify that have been deleted. Moderation is to not express a view.

My fault for questioning the God botherers. Their mate moves in mysterious ways.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:35 AM

Well I agree with all that, Joe. Speaking from my own experience, however (which was far from being the worst thing ever), along with my fellow Catholic classmates I had a brand of morality drummed into me that took me years to question then (at least for many aspects of it) shake off. The number of things I was told were sinful, which were not actually sinful at all, was legion (litany available on request), not to speak of the ways I was to see others different from me by virtue of their religion, sexuality and gender. Moral guidance for children is a very fine and necessary thing. Though note "guidance", not the imposed faux-morality that is primarily designed to keep you from straying from the flock. That kind of morality, ironically, is far more likely to make you end up doing immoral things. That's why we have ISIS, rabid evangelists and violent anti-abortionists.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:38 AM

"Islamic terrorism" in its current context is motivated by a wish to impose a particular form of Islam on others. It is aimed at beliefs rather than actions, and is aimed at other views of Islam as well as believers in other religions or in none. It is a journalistic shorthand which serves to condense a complex issue into a few words.

That seems to me to be very different from an attack on an abortion clinic, which is motivated by the perpetrator's views on abortion. These are probably likely to be derived from a religious point of view, but I think it would be misleading to call this "{insert religion of choice] terrorism". In the current context, it is something quite different, even if religion may be part of it.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:45 AM

Rubbish, Howard Jones. It seeks to impose certain forms of conduct, which are not required by Islam (as far as the consensus of Islamic scholarship goes).

And as for Xtian terrorism, a friend of mine has found the link I was looking for -

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/11/evangelist-calls-on-christians-to-assassinate-abortion-providers

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 10:10 AM

"Islamic terrorism" in its current context is motivated by a wish to impose a particular form of Islam on others.

Just as Christian terrorism is motivated by a wish to impose a particular form of Christianity on others, to whit:


Ted Cruz Lauds Anti-Abortion Extremist Eight Days Before Planned Parenthood Shooting

Presidential candidate and Texas Sen. Ted Cruz, who on Sunday suggested the shooter in a bloody Friday rampage on a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado, was a "transgender leftist activist," maintains ties to violent factions of the anti-abortion movement.

Right Wing Watch reports that just eight days before Robert L. Dear, 57, was arrested for killing three people and wounding nine others at the facility on Friday, Cruz bragged about an endorsement he received from the head of Christian pro-life organization Operation Rescue, Troy Newman.

In a statement on the senator's campaign website, Cruz said, "I am grateful to receive the endorsement of Troy Newman. He has served as a voice for the unborn for over 25 years, and works tirelessly every day for the pro-life cause. We need leaders like Troy Newman in this country who will stand up for those who do not have a voice."

But Newman has a history of openly endorsing violence against doctors and medical staff involved in providing abortion services. In his book, Their Blood Cries Out, Newman wrote that the United States government's responsibility to "properly deal with the blood-guilty ... rightly involves executing convicted murderers, including abortionists, for their crimes in order to expunge bloodguilt from the land and people."

After President Bill Clinton signed a law in 1994 banning protesters from physically preventing women from entering medical facilities that provide abortion, Newman responded by saying, "With the upsurge of legislation against peaceful and nonviolent free speech, some people, unfortunately, are being driven to different means."

In the wake of the shooting, many noted violence and threats against Planned Parenthood had increased sharply after prominent Republicans, including Cruz, again raised baseless allegations that the nonprofit was involved in illegal trafficking of fetal organs. Democratic presidential candidate and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders explicitly connected the attack to right-wing rhetoric on abortion in a statement on Twitter.

http://news.yahoo.com/ted-cruz-lauds-anti-abortion-210755532.html

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 10:15 AM

Here's a commentary from AlterNet on the issue of incitement:

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/how-extreme-christian-right-incited-assault-planned-parenthood-clinic-colorado?akid=13724.154686.OxvGw1&rd=1&src=newsletter1046576&t=4

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 11:14 AM

It's as much extremist religion based terrorism as the Muslem variety. It just comes down with some people telling other people how they should live and trying to enforce that with fear.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 12:59 PM

Following up on Richard's "Rubbish, Howard Jones" comment- This is indeed considered terrorism, and is often referenced as "single-issue terrorism". there have been at least 11 anti-abortion murders, the most visible have been the one resulting from Centennial Park Olympics bombing which also injured 111.

Obviously, before this incident, our UK friends had no awareness of the of the history--which, perhaps accounts for their slowness to accept that this crime was rooted in the religious-based anti-abortion movement.

From Wikipedia:

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded, 100 butyric acid attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats,and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers...property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid.The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 01:01 PM

That last was me.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 01:19 PM

We do know what goes on in foreign lands you know. We have a real news service called BBC that isn't funded by interest corporations.

We know all about the anti abortion crime. The sick puppies try to export it to civilised countries such as ours via the theocracy known as Northern Ireland.

Clean up and catch up with civilisation before comparing advanced countries with your interesting to visit in places but generally fucked up federation.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:19 PM

A civilized country? How novel.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:37 PM

Guest of 12.59 seems to have trouble understanding. Of course the things he cites are Xtian terrorism - but Da'esh seeks to impose conduct, and something that is not Islam. Get it now?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:07 PM

And the "Asshole Of The Month" award goes to:

DENVER (AP) — A Republican state lawmaker from Denver blamed Planned Parenthood for a deadly shootout last week at a clinic in Colorado Springs.

Rep. JoAnn Windholz wrote in a Facebook posting Monday that Planned Parenthood is "the real culprit" for violence.

"Violence is never the answer, but we must start pointing out who is the real culprit," Windholz wrote.
She called Planned Parenthood the "true instigator of this violence" because it provides abortions.

And the "Egregious Asshole of the Month" award goes to Ted Cruz:

Conservatives have been bristling for several days with the possibility that Robert Lewis Dear, the alleged Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooter, may be transgender because his voter registration identified him as female. Even Ted Cruz floated the idea at a campaign stop on Sunday. On Monday, the El Paso County Clerk and Recorder's Office confirmed there had been a clerical error.

Ryan Parsell, El Paso County's chief deputy clerk and recorder, told the Colorado Springs Gazette that his office was responsible for the mistake, calling it a data entry error. When he received a driver's license with the same error, Dear went to a different Department of Motor Vehicles office to request a corrected license, which he received.

Dear also apparently attempted to fix his voter registration form, which required submitting a "Change in Voter Registration Information" form to the Park County Clerk and Recorder's Office. His registration was not adjusted, however, because the dot in the "male" box — "a small dark spot" — was so faint that a deputy clerk concluded it was not an intentional mark:

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:42 PM

Da'esh seeks to impose conduct, and something that is not Islam.

There is not one Islam. Of the more than one billion followers of the religion there is a broad spectrum of belief and practice. This ranges from the radicals for whom the words of the Quran, Hadith and legal texts are to be taken literally to the liberals or moderates who take a more rationalistic approach to the writings. They accept the texts were relevant at a particular point in past history, but Islamic societies have moved on and so they are no longer relevant today. There is also a relatively recent but growing group who believe that traditional Islam is out of step with the modern world and is in need of reform. They refer to themselves as reformist and/or secular Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:05 PM

This thread is full of nonsense, the perpetrator was a solitary madman with a gun......his crime can in no way be compared to the atrocities of Fundamentalist Islam, which have been carefully planned and funded...9/11, 7/7 and numerous other attacks all over the world involved complicated organisation, by a jihadist faction, funding and training, often overseas.

The latest shooting was simply the symptoms of a deranged mind, it could have been any issue.......stop clutching at straws.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:01 PM

Hey,Pharoah: have you put your hat in the ring with the rest of the Republican fantasists an lunatics for the U.S. Presidential nomination?

You sure as shit sound like those assholes.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:08 PM

Not at all Greg, I have no brief for Republican politics or any who use these tragedies for political gain.

But the Jihad i's are a terrorist organisation, this guy was simply a nut.....you're not doing yourself much good pressing the point here.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:24 PM

Akenhateon, you once again display your Islamophobia. The point is whether this particular gunman was a terrorist, not a Jihadi.

Hundreds of Islamic scholars have co-signed a letter to IS setting out why (is I may put it this way) Da'esh is haram.

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:58 PM

you're not doing yourself much good pressing the point here.

Right back at ya, Pharoah - you're once again displaying your ignorance of what goes on and is going on in the U.S. We're talking about people angling for political gain who in the process enable and/or cause tragedies, not the other way 'round.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:41 AM

OK fair point Greg, you know more about the politics of you own country than I do, but from a distance the whole thing looks so polarised that any attempt to change things politically is almost impossible......you seem to have social/religious issues and political/economic issues packed into the same box.

Don't your fellow countrymen understand that many people of faith can have socialist or "left wing" views, and many hardened right wingers especially politicos have faith in nothing but their own enrichment.

Faith should not be an issue in politics, but that mindset cannot be imposed, it must be learned.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 06:17 AM

So, has the assailant been linked to some Christian terrorist organisation ?    Richard accuses Ake of islamophobia when his christophobia is far more evident. Even Dawkins has said that he has some misgivings about the removal of Christianity , as it may be a bulwark against something far worse.    I could probably find the exact quote if required...