BS: Fear WITH Guns

Subject: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 02:16 AM

Reading another of the seemingly endless accounts of police shooting an unarmed citizen with police then commonly stating in their defence that they feared for their lives or safety, it occurs to me to wonder at the contradiction.

Regular people (American) buy/carry/stash guns because they fear that they will be accosted/assaulted/invaded, right?

So *why* do police - given all the equipment/training/experience they have - feel so much fear that they shoot? Rather than threaten? If *police* cannot control their fear, given that they have a weapon on their bodies, how can the citizenry hope for self discipline?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 09:57 AM

I don't know.

Here in the civilised first world, people aren't allowed to carry guns. We have far less gun crime. Our police, who don't carry guns normally have armed response units who do. Each and every time a shot is made, there is a full investigation.

Still, they do cock up just like your police do. This makes our reaction to the idea of members of the public carrying guns being something that should never happen and never can in civilised countries.

The Foreign Office advice for UK travellers to The USA warns us of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 10:02 AM

The bad guy has to shoot first, Ebbie. But the cops should give a warning before shooting (unless the bullets are already coming).

And there's also "suicide by cop." No cop that I know wants to shoot and/or kill someone who wants to die; the burden is very, very heavy. I suppose that the person is afraid that they won't "do the job" and so they have a cop do it -- like the person who jumps in front of a train and puts the onus for their death on the engineer and the train crew.

In the event of an accident, whether or not personal injury or death was involved, the Union Pacific Railroad changes the entire train crew and if necessary provides counseling. Cops are usually giving administrative leave, with counseling.

I'm not including cases where the cop shoots someone sixteen times after the person is "down" and anything similar. "Adrenaline rush" is no excuse; cops should be trained to deal with that.

The average citizen is not trained in "concealed carry" training to deal with the adrenaline, fear, pressure, and other emotions that come in a true life-or-death situation. "Freezing" is the most common reaction, followed by an evacuation of the bladder and/or bowels -- as any soldier whose been in combat. These are natural reactions to such a situation.

There are three possible reaction to an active and immediate threat: fight, posturing, or flight. "Posturing" is Tarzan beating his chest or a guy in a bar telling someone how badly he's going to beat them up. The problem is telling posturing from an true threat and you might only get one chance.

And that's why I support less-than-lethal weapons. Yes, people have died from Taser shots, but more have died from bullets. Someone armed with a machete is no match for a cop with a Glock, but if the machete is being used to cut people than the cop uses a Glock and not a Taser.

Cops are, slowly, getting better training about dealing with combat pressure. There are rounds -- NOT paintball! -- that sting but are not lethal which are available to police to give them an idea of what it's like to face someone who might kill you. Trainees are run a mile, orally harassed like a recruit in the Marines, and then run through such a course of fire without being told what's going on. The alternative is to have someone actively try to shoot a trainee and that's not really acceptable on many levels.

No matter how much I wish this wasn't so, that's what is. And it doesn't matter if the threat is in Anchorage, Pocatello, Paris, Juneau, Moscow, or London, sometimes force must be met with force.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 10:30 AM

I often wonder why anyone would want to be a policeman or woman, especially in America. It seems a thankless job and a very dangerous one indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 11:15 AM

"The bad guy has to shoot first, Ebbie."

But, Rap, many of these 'incidents' involve someone *without* a weapon. Evidently the officer is so instantly, viscerally, afraid that she/he perceives a camera, a toy gun or a cane as a threat to himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 11:19 AM

I was driving a rental car through the streets of Phoenix, Arizona about a month ago. Drove past a bus stop; bus stops have shade, protection from that Arizona sun, so these little shelters have advertising space going from the little roof down to the sidewalk.

In big capital letters on one bus-stop advert board:

G U N S    S A V E   L I V E S   


L E A R N   H O W   T O   S H O O T   S T R A I G H T

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 12:07 PM

So, how long should an officer take to determine that is a cane or a toy gun. I would certainly be very afraid under those circumstances, I am sure anyone would be. It is not an easy question for sure .

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 12:17 PM

Let me try to answer, in small measure, Ebbie's question.

Years ago I saw a newspaper article in the Washington Post about an interview with a convicted kid from the inner city who had shot someone. He was asked why (he had an argument with the victim) he had used a gun instead of just a fight.
He replied (paraphrased) "Well, when someone disrespects you, you got to do something, and fighting just means he'll be back at you. A gun just settles it fast."

Bad logic, but it illustrates a mindset... and cops often have a similar attitude from a different perspective. They spend much time dealing with crime and kids like the one quoted.... who 'may' have weapons. Even when 'problem people' don't have weapons, they often defy and dare police and are uncooperative. Cops, by virtue of their job expect to be obeyed and can lose patience with those who not only make them work harder, but 'disrespect' the very job the police have! (yes... sometimes for good reason). Then, because there are so many guns among the people the cops have to deal with, they are constantly aware & on guard..... *SOME* cops have shorter fuses than others... and some probably should not BE cops, even though it may not be obvious when they are hired. It's like wartime... you just can't always tell who will be a good soldier and who will fail in combat.
   So... in many urban settings, with guns 'available' and attitudes on both sides often heated, "things happen", and cops.. as well as citizens... can use a gun to end a confrontation quickly.... and cops have, until recently, known that their version of an incident usually prevails... "I was in fear for my life". If the victim already has a police record, that explanation is easy to sell... even IF no gun is found.
   In the last few years, with so many cameras, both carried by people and mounted on buildings, recording stuff, the situation has changed... but not the attitudes that cause confrontations. We now SEE obviously stupid behavior.. on both sides.
Hiring and training good police officers is never easy-- you have to find people who are capable and brave enough to do the job, while weeding out those who just like to be 'in control' and hassle others (and often with pre-existing bias toward certain groups). It does little good to note that many police go an entire career without ever drawing their gun seriously, and that most police do NOT allow their emotions to override their training... there are just too many people, too many guns and too many situations in a rising population!

What we have now is guns, stress, opportunity... and media of several types to report on it all. ... and the media not only reports incidents, it feeds the fear and fuels 'defensive behavior'.

It is all of the above that the phrase "a vicious circle" was coined to explain.... and the common factor is guns. We KNOW that they are part of the problem, yet like in wartime, they are also viewed as part of the solution... no matter how absurd that sounds in the abstract.... and thus we see bus stop ads telling us that "Guns Save Lives". It has become a slogan... and simple slogans don't always make sense except in theory, but being simple, they are often the easiest to adopt... and the firearms industry will do little to dispel the idea.

What more can I say? It is what it is....

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 12:41 PM

In American just join an upscale urban firing range/gun club with a training simulator and it will keep score of how many innocents you would kill if confronted with a similar set of circumstances AND reaction time. No guessing required.

I have yet to meet the first-timer who doesn't come out of it guilty... guilty... guilty or dead twice. Either way there's plenty cold sweat to go with.

Music Trivia: Did you know modern 'training simulators' are a direct outgrowth of the reproducing (aka 'player') piano industry? See: Edwin Albert Link; Link Piano and Organ Company; the Link Trainer and today's:

https://www.link.com/Pages/default.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 01:29 PM

Which all came from the Jacquard loom...along with many other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 04:55 PM

"...the Jacquard loom..."

1960's Singer industrial textile looms and DeLaval centrifuges both got their media from QRS (Music.) NASA's Space Shuttle flight simulator was subbed by Singer-Link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnb7EqfykF4

The headbobs and that "How ya like me now?" grin at 04:23m:s … priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 09:59 PM

I don't need to walk around with a gun because I hire people to do that for me. I'm a taxpayer. The people I hire are called cops. Isn't that the way it works in the US of A?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 10:40 PM

Of course. But there are always a few in every country who feel that, given the chance, they could do it better.

True story:

After the theater shootings in Colorado I happened to be in a gun store and overheard two young men each stating flatly that "if I had been there things would have been different." After ten or so repetitions of this I inquired about their training the handle such a situation and was told that no, neither was police trained or had been in the military. Speaking from personal experience I told them that they had no way of knowing how they would react to what would essentially be combat and being untrained they would most likely freeze and/or poop their pants.

This was not well received. They told me that they "had played plenty of paintball" and knew how to handle themselves. I calmly replied that paintball was a game and they weren't likely to die doing it. I was told that "paintball really stings when you get hit." I asked them if they knew of anyone who had been killed by a paintball, and pointed out that an active shooter is active, trying to kill you, and panic would rule them and everyone else.

I think I made my point.

Police and military have to make nanosecond decisions and they have to be the right decision. Is it a gun? Is it a REAL gun? Is there actually a threat here? Do I have a clear field of fire if I must fire? What is behind me, to the sides, up above that I might hit if I miss the bad guy? What will my family do if I'm shot? Maybe...is that just a stick? Okay, he's armed with a knife, not a gun, and now what do I do? He's breaking car windows and he's thrown that old man to the sidewalk -- should I shoot or not?

I have no sympathy for cops who gun down the unarmed or empty their pistols into a suspect who's down. I have no sympathy for a cop or anyone else who uses more force than is necessary. I wish shooting was confined to targets at shooting ranges. I wish that the US had rational gun control laws, made with thought during calm instead of in reaction to another "incident." I wish that the gun culture of the US wasn't so embedded in the national pysche that a gun is looked at as the tool it is.

Mostly, I wish there wasn't evil and greed and such things in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 04:41 AM

"The bad guy has to shoot first, Ebbie."

Arrant tosh. Tell that to the family of Tamir Rice, a boy playing with a toy gun. We all had toy guns when we were kids, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 05:03 AM

Stu: "...a boy playing with a toy gun. We all had toy guns when we were kids, right?"

No. Pellet guns were considered weapons when I was young (50-60s.)
http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width620/img/open_impact/photo/17244430-mmmain.jpg

Wave that around in an inner city public park setting and just plan on getting shot by someone, gang member, gun nut or police.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 05:10 AM

I never had one, nor did I know anyone who did.the"toy" in question was a near exact replica of a real gun. How does the officer know if it is real ?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 08:13 AM

" Pellet guns were considered weapons when I was young (50-60s.)"

So shooting someone with an airgun is the same as shooting someone with a pistol? A twelve year old boy?


"I never had one, nor did I know anyone who did"

Really? No plastic guns for playing war with your mates? Hmmm.

" How does the officer know if it is real ?"

Good point. Blast his brains out, just in case. HE WAS TWELVE.

The police were scared and this impairs their judgement. They see a threat where there is none and innocent people die. Face it, guns mean many live in fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 09:33 AM

Damned straight the cops were scared! That the dispatcher didn't pass on the information that the kid might have had a toy gun is totally wrong and might have saved the kid's life.

That picture, if of the object that the child was holding, looks remarkably like a .45 caliber M1911A1 pistol. I wish the magazine was turned over to show a CO₂ cylinder slot if there is one. There is nothing to distinguish it from a real pistol even from the distance from which it is photographed -- no orange barrel, for instance. There might be -- probably is -- information stamped into the side of weapon, but reading it means have the weapon in your hand.

Now, if a grown man who is trained in police work can't overcome a 12 year old the training and the self-control of the officer is seriously questionable.

But then, I knew a military policeman (a non-combat veteran) who drove around with a box of unissued ammunition when on patrol. It was so he'd have "enough ammo for a shootout and I hope I have one before I get out of the Army!" I and others thought he was slightly off but he was one of the darlings of the CO and....

If carrying a gun makes you feel eight feet tall and covered with hair, I don't want to be around you because you'll get us both killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 09:57 AM

"That picture, if of the object that the child was holding, looks remarkably like a .45 caliber M1911A1 pistol."

It looks to YOU and the coppers like a M1911A1 (whatever the heck that is) because you have become habituated to identifying the weapons that are sloshing around in the society you live. This isn't meant as a criticism or insult, just the fact you see a deadly weapon where I see a child with a toy gun, because where I'm from we can go years at a time without ever seeing a gun; they are not part of our culture.

So it's part of the social conditioning of some societies that folk expect anything that looks like a gun to be a deadly weapon whether it is or not. This means people live in state of permanent low-level fear and when confronted with what they perceive to be a threat react accordingly as the limbic system kicks in, and bang! another one bites the dust.

It's not protecting society, it's not justice, it's not serving anyone. It's part of the slaughter deemed a part of daily life in some countries. That is pretty sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 10:25 AM

No one here... or in the media... seems to have made the relevant point about the shooting of Tamir Rice. Finally last night a lawyer for his family said it.

It is not whether the kid's gun was real or not, or whether the cops were 'scared' or not.... it was that, given what they knew, driving right up in front of him was totally stupid and NOT in line with standard procedure! The investigation took over a YEAR as they scoured the country looking for 'experts' who would testify that the shooting was justified. Then the defense ridiculed the prosecution experts in front of the Grand Jury!

IF they had stopped 20-40 yards away and assessed the situation and called out to him, they could soon have determined what was going on! People seem to have also lost the point that both of those cops had previous bad employment reviews, and the one who did the shooting had been fired by another town with a note that he should not be in law enforcement.


That is my take on that particular incident... what I wonder is why no one except me seems to be addressing Ebbie's original question. Did anyone actually read my longish post attempting to put some perspective on the idea of "fear WITH guns" by police?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

". . . what I wonder is why no one except me seems to be addressing Ebbie's original question."

Here is Ebbie's original question: "So *why* do police - given all the equipment/training/experience they have - feel so much fear that they shoot?"

The answer is fairly basic, fundamental. The cops watch the same news media the population watches.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:10 PM

The city of Long Beach CA has a population of 500,000.

The Xs on the map are the shootings of civilians by civilians for 364 days of 2015.

www.lbreport.com/news/dec15/245wrig.htm

Sincerely,

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM

"Face it, guns mean many live in fear." Stu

Right. My point, exactly.

And yes, the police watch the same news that the citizenry do- but why then the training? If the police react the same way that a panicked householder may, of what use is the training?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:16 PM

Los Angeles county 623 homicides this year.

Another nice map.

www.homicide.latimes.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:47 PM

When I was a first aid instructor I always told trainees that learning in the safe environment of a classroom is very different to out in the field. You do not know how you will react regardless how much training you have until you are faced with the situation for real. One of my greatest firstaiders for competitions I could not be used in event as he fainted at the sight of blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 02:55 PM

Basic training for US cops.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 04:13 PM

"The answer is fairly basic, fundamental. The cops watch the same news media the population watches. "

Oh, c'mon now.... that is way oversimplifying it. Even if 'most' cops watch the media (and we don't know how many do), many of them have widely different backgrounds and experiences.... and serve in diverse communities. You can't generalize THAT much about shooting causes and psychological tendencies among many thousands of cops.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 04:22 PM

OK then. It's got nothing to do with media. If so, explain it. Or it has your view which places it where?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 09:57 PM

Stu, Ebbie, et al: "So *why* do police - given all the equipment/training/experience they have - feel so much fear that they shoot? "

Police are trained to assess the risk of serious bodily injury or death the subject poses to the people around them, the general public, fellow officers and self. Assuming "so much fear" = irrationality here, how did you conclude this as opposed to what a rational person would have concluded given the same set of facts and required reaction time? fwiw: In urban America the meme of premediated genocide is at least as popular as random or systemic cowardice.

Stu: "the fact you see a deadly weapon where I see a child with a toy gun, because where I'm from we can go years at a time without ever seeing a gun; they are not part of our culture."

If Rice (5'7"- #195) pulled his stunt at Heathrow today I'd give him 50-50 on survival. Even so I'm not sure how useful any one human lifespan (or three) is in comparing the evolution of whole nations and societies. And one may find plenty German Glocks; Italian Berettas; Chinese Norincos; ad naseum in "Chi-raq" these days. "Not part of our 'domestic' culture." Perhaps?


"It's part of the slaughter deemed a part of daily life in some countries. That is pretty sad."

A huge slice of American society worships thuggery, the badder the better, and would agree a "snitch" needs killing. They don't see themselves as sad, cheesed off yes, but not sad. It's the exact opposite of what they and the mainstream(?) and you demand of the police. The world tuts about the status quo while their arms industries merrily shift millions of units/annum into the U.S. markets. I am shocked—shocked—to find that gun violence is going on in America!

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 10:15 PM

#... I didn't EXCLUDE the media. I merely doubt it as the sole...or major cause.

I explained my view in pretty great detail above.

----------------------------

"If Rice (5'7"- #195) pulled his stunt at Heathrow today ..."

he didn't "pull a stunt" he was a kid pretending with his pellet gun.He never aimed AT anyone or fired it. For most of the time, there was no one near him. Even the guy who reported him said it was 'probably' not a real gun. The cops could have discovered that if they had just stopped back aways and yelled at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 10:48 PM

A huge slice of American society worships thuggery, the badder the better, and would agree a "snitch" needs killing." Sounds like you may have watched the Sopranos a bit much. (On the other hand, I never did see even one episode of them so it may be some other show.) For your edification, I don't know one single person who "worships thuggery, the badder the better, and would agree a snitch needs killing" and I'm 80 years old and have lived my entire life so far in the United States. Where do you get your information?

As for Tamir Rice, if the cops in question really feared for their lives, and were competent officers, why in the world did they pull up broadside to the kid and within 50 feet? Why didn't they pull up a distance away to assess the situation? Nah.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 11:25 PM

Ebbie: "Where do you get your information?"

Front stoop. How many of those eighty in the projects or prison? I'm past seventy and know plenty of third gen gangbangers. More than one is doing time with the father. Trust and believe a snitch is on par with a child molester, open season.

fyi "Sopranos" may I suggest: "Grape Street Crips" on youtube and remember there were no union screenwriters involved.

I've also spent years in Maine and Texas and never saw anything worse than a parking ticket tiff. Florida somewhere in between. It's a big country and parts of it are truly effed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 02:17 AM

"Stopped back always and yelled at him". Great idea in a potentially dangerous situation. Honestly ! Like I said earlier, I would not want to be a police officer in America!,

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Megan L
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 02:30 AM

Pellet guns are not toys, ask this childs mother

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 10:05 AM

Air guns are NOT toys. They have been and are used for hunting small game, and larger ones have been used to take down deer.

That is why the manufacturers refuse to allow orange "toy marking" on the weapons.

Airsoft is similar, but with less muzzle velocity and a far lighter projectile.

Either can harm or kill.

A spring operated "BB gun" produces from 250 to 350 fps to a 5 grain .174 steel ball ("BB"). Ten pumps on a Daisy Powerline 880 will get 560 to 670 fps with the same steel ball. A Beeman R-1 moves it up to as much as 1100 fps, and some newer models are faster. For some perspective, a standard 9mm round or a .45 ACP move at about 650 fps and a standard .22 at 1025. Of course, these last rounds are more deadly because the bullets have more mass (230 grains for a military-grade .45 ACP, 40 grains for a .22).

Air guns are NOT toys.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 05:39 PM

Air guns are NOT toys.

Nor are they, 99.9% of the time,lethal. And holding one should not engender a death sentance.

GF- hunter, target shooter & responsible firearm owner.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 05:47 PM

One thing we can't train is common sense. The reason navy seals are such a small group is their training and their psychological testing. They don't rattle under fire but stay cool. Their awareness of when to shoot to rescue hostages. Police need to go through that testing I think. Too many get rattled and shoot first. Sadly this is the result. More training more stress and psychological training may make a big difference

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 05:51 PM

By the way most swat teams members of the police are ex special forces. They don't rattle. Our patrol officers need their psychological testing and training and not just target skills

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 06:04 PM

Fear. That's exactly it, in spades.

The U.S culture of fear, hyped by Republican assholes and others of limited intelligence.

Same bullshit as when Richard Hofstadter published The Paranoid Style in American Politics   in 1964. Someone is always out to getcha getcha getcha - Mexican immigrant criminal rapists, the Federal Government, minorities, residents of urban slums, the poor, the disadvantaged, Muslims, "Liberals", humanists, Syran refugees, Planned Parenthood, the whole pantheon of they're out to getcha terrorist shibboleths.

Pat Sky ( god love him!) had this down in 1968 and we haven't learned shit since:

Queen of Fools turn around, life will be your folly
Wave your wand at those who will waste away and worry
Play them for the fools they are and make their steps up for them
A clock that's shaken hard enough, it cannot stay in rhythm.

(c)Rabelaisian Music, Inc.

Ditto Tom Paxton in 1965:

Buy a gun for your son right away, Sir
Shake his hand like a man and let him play, Sir.
Let his little mind expand, Place a weapon in his hand,
For the skills he learns today will someday pay, Sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WphNO24h9nA

The U.S. hasn't learned a fucking thing in half a century.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 07:34 PM

Between you last three posters you've pretty much nailed it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 10:02 PM

I quite agree, GF. I've said so earlier on. I'm just saying that they are not toys. I have both an air rifle and a CO2 pistol. Like any weapon they should be used safely. And I fault the cop for not assessing the situation further before firing.

olddude, some cop shops require psychological testing. Some training facilities actually will do "practical firing" after a mile run and before a BIG test while instructors scream at the students. More departments should do testing, most police academies should try to weed out the students with psychological problems. No chief (or fellow officer) in their right mind wants to deal with what Cleveland, Chicago, and other cities are dealing with right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 10:57 PM

I know many do rap, you know my background and guys like you and I know it is all about the mindset and less about shooting skills. Many depts do havetthe psychological training but many only for the swat teams. I think more focus on psychological training and testing is needed

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 11:01 PM

I can totally agree/admit that pellet guns & BB guns are not toys, and should not be considered as such... and at the same time agree with Greg F. for a change. No matter WHAT the gun was, the response by those officers was careless stupid.
IF that kid had pointed that pellet gun at someone, or at the cops, after being told from a distance to put it down, THEN there might be a justification for firing at him, depending on who and where. They claimed that he was 'drawing' it, and fired at him within 2 seconds. The police car was still rocking from its sudden stop when that cop decided in the 1st second that there was a threat and fired in the 2nd second. Tamir Rice died not even having a chance to obey a command.

I am totally angered and bewildered that the issue of a kid having a 'dangerous' pellet gun is getting more static than the issue of cops shooting first and asking questions later.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 11:09 PM

Bill, it could be also not fear, just some bad people who just want to kill someone and pretend to do it legally. Ebbie is correct that a highly trained officer would not pull the car right up to a person who has been reported as having a gun. That action makes no sense unless the mindset was pull up and I will drop him. It is very sad and very questionable in my eyes

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 04:02 AM

And it's almost unimaginable and impossible in the UK. A police officer (who, of course, would be unarmed, as they are here), on seeing an individual with what appeared to be a firearm, would call in a specialist Armed Response Unit - armed officers who have had the psychological testing and training which oldude and rap mention.

Mistakes have happened here, but it's rare - considerably rarer than seems to be the case in the US.

But, as has been said on so many of these 'gun' threads, guns are VERY rarely seen here, and there is a completely different attitude to guns in the UK than in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 05:18 AM

In Paris and Brussels there are armed troops needed on the streets, and they still dare not have New Year's Eve fireworks.
It is reported that every armed officer will be on duty in London tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 07:53 AM

"If Rice (5'7"- #195) pulled his stunt at Heathrow today I'd give him 50-50 on survival<"

He was a TWELVE YEAR OLD BOY for fuck's sake; he like Bill D says, he wasn't "pulling a stunt". An even if he had a toy gun at Heathrow (which would be stupid of those who let him take to an airport) I'd bet a pound to a penny he wouldn't have been gunned down without warning.

And though airguns are dangerous for sure, owning one or shooting someone with one is not a reason to kill them. Get some perspective for crying out loud. These are PEOPLE.

The people who know about guns, swat teams, navy seals and all the associated violent and belligerent attitudes that invariably seem to go hand-in-hand with gun ownership are certainly NOT the ones who should be deciding whether our societies should be awash with devices that make it so easy to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 08:12 AM

What I mean by my last comment is the mindset of those associated with guns is currently a dominating force in society; we need to change this by recognising the only way to stop the slaughter is allow those who don't want guns and reject violence to formulate policy.

Our societies are way too violent, and it's time for the people of violence to move over; they don't keep the peace and they are not serving our society effectively and with compassion.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 09:48 AM

In Paris and Brussels there are armed troops needed on the streets, and they still dare not have New Year's Eve fireworks.


DEC. 30, 2015 - PARIS — Officials are investigating accounts of an alcohol-fueled "orgy" at a police station one night last month while Brussels, the Belgian capital, was nearly shut down over fears of a copycat terrorist attack.

According to an article in La Dernière Heure, a local newspaper, the orgy occurred sometime between Nov. 21 — when the federal government's crisis center raised the alert level for the Brussels region to 4, the highest — and Nov. 26, when the alert level was reduced to 3. According to the newspaper, after the police station closed for the night at 10 p.m., two policewomen were invited upstairs to the floor where the soldiers were sleeping and had sex with eight of them.

A spokeswoman for the Brussels-West police agency, one of six police departments that patrol the city, confirmed on Wednesday that it had begun an internal investigation.

American officials reacted cautiously to the reports that Belgian officials had disrupted a New Year's Eve plot. Some said the arrests this week in Belgium and Turkey, as well as the Paris attacks themselves, had stirred a broader debate about Europe's ability to address terrorist threats now and in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 11:27 AM

Cnn is reporting that Obama isusing eexecutive order to fix the gun show loophole.. Thank you God. About time

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 11:35 AM

1. I own and shoot firearms.
2. They are stored, unloaded and with a trigger lock, in a locked steel cabinet.
3. Whatever ammunition I have is similarly stored elsewhere.
4. There are no children in my house and they rarely, if ever, visit.
5. I do not brag about having them and consider them tools for an Olympic-sanctioned sport that I enjoy -- target shooting.
6. I would fully support a system of gun control that was well considered and well thought out instead of a mish-mash cobbled together in reaction to events.
7. I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the National Rifle Association, although I do support their work in firearms safety.

Please read this. It is well considered.

As for Ebbie's original question: cops get frightened too, but they are supposedly trained to cope with that and other things.Training is imperative, but there must also be a psychological makeup that rejects the immediate use of force.

British police started unarmed, but with armed backup, because the people were afraid of police in the "French style." Robert Peel did arm them, very briefly, in the beginning, but it was found that the general level of cop was very low. Although it was required, many could not read or write. Over a couple of centuries this evolved into a very good police force indeed.

A better example might be the German police force -- you might want to check out the training that this armed police force goes through.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 12:13 PM

I read the article.... it says essentially what I have been saying in posts here for several years.

It says that 'only reduction in the number of guns would seriously reduce the number of deaths'... then it says that although there IS a legal, constitutional way to make a reduction, there's little chance of actually doing it because of the mind-set of too many people.

That mind-set is pushed by those who have a financial interest to go along with their personal mind-set, and who essentially BUY a large enough % of congress to keep reform from happening. (This situation, as I have said before, is made possible by the "states rights" configuration of our basic political system.)

Short version... it's a vicious circle.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 12:46 PM

Yep, that's how it seems to me, Bill.
It will take a lot of education and a revolution in the mindset of many - perhaps the vast majority - of Americans before anything will change.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world looks on with chins on chests in utter disbelief that a nation that prides itself on being the home of the brave and the land of the free is apparently happy to accept such stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 02:17 PM

CNN is reporting that Obama issuing eexecutive order to fix the gun show loophole.

Dan, I'm sure the Repubs will mount a campaign to override it.

I would fully support a system of gun control that was well considered and well thought out instead of a mish-mash cobbled together in reaction to events.

Rap, exactly why a single FEDERAL nationwide statute is needed to supercede & override the mish-mash of ineffective State legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 03:06 PM

Nail on the head Greg exactly

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,TS
Date: 01 Jan 16 - 03:52 PM

A question: Does not the large number of handgun visuals (often dark in color and close up) often seen in US TV dramas not seem similar
to cigarette smoking in days gone by that was actively promoted by tobacco companies? Or would it not seem reasonable to just back off with those visuals for the sake of human lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 16 - 04:24 PM

I doubt that those scenes, GUEST TS, has the same impact of playing a "shooter" video game over and over. I won't discount it, as a very large number of factors are in play. I very much wish that the gun (and violence in general) wasn't viewed as the sole means to solve problems. Yes, explosions and gunshots and car chases are exciting (to young minds anyway), but what is shown in the movies and videos are not what nearly always happens in real life. Unfortunately, a disconnect between reality and fantasy seems to be missing -- as do quite a number of other things.

But when a country's leadership views violence as a sole solution....

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 04:34 AM

Interesting article in The Guardian about open-carry laws in Texas:

Open carry of handguns in Texas: fear for some but 'everybody else is packing'

I have to say I would view someone openly carrying a gun very dimly. It's an act of aggression and designed to intimidate others, pure and simple. I guess it's designed to stop you arguing with the ape carrying the gun in case he/she looses his/hers temper and pops a cap in yo ass. Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Tradsinger
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 04:52 AM

Does this mean that there are a lot of "well-regulated militia" in Texas?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 09:20 AM

No, it means there are a lot of deluded jackasses in Texas who think it's still 1882.

And the delusion is spreading.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM

But don't be TOO hard on the Texas morons; 11 states permit open carry without requiring the citizen to apply for any permit or license and 13 States permit open carry with some restrictions.

Welcome to Tombstone, Arizona ca. 1876.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 09:46 AM

Open carry hadn't been permitted since the late 1800s in Texas. It was a law put in place for a reason that these Yahoos (think Swift) no longer remember. Probably never learned about in school before they dropped out in the ninth grade.

I plan to leave any establishment in which people come in with their personal firearms in view, and let the management know why I'm leaving, and the extent of their sales loss because of my departure. And I plan to ask in my regular places if they allow open carry, so I can find new regular places to shop, eat, etc, if necessary. It's about the only thing I can do now, since I don't think these folks are remotely qualified to "protect" me with their ill-conceived good intentions. I predict that a lot of innocent by-standers are going to be killed or maimed before the legislature reconsiders this permission to go native with handguns.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 12:06 PM

I quite agree!

If you want to carry a gun openly, join the military or the police (if they'll have you).

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 02:49 PM

Most states require it to be fully concealed. Open carry except in a state like alaska where you are not the top of the food chain and is a common practice is a terrible idea. It scares people and is stupid

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 03:30 PM

Most states require it to be fully concealed.

Unfortunately not these days, Dan. Do a web search - there's like 40 states out of 50 where you can pretend you're Bat Masterson or Whm Bonnie no - or few - questions asked.

Scary, and stupid, but there it is!!

Send a thank-you card to the National Rifle Assassination and all the Republican asshole congressmen when you get a spare minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 10:34 PM

And some states are getting pushed for "Constitutional Carry" -- or no concealed carry permit to carry concealed.

Unfortunately, Idaho is among them

Of course, this is the same Legislature that allowed guns on campus a year or so ago; a chemistry instructor at Idaho State University (here, in the town where I live) promptly shot himself in the foot during class.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 04:24 AM

" It's about the only thing I can do now, since I don't think these folks are remotely qualified to "protect" me with their ill-conceived good intentions. I predict that a lot of innocent by-standers are going to be killed or maimed before the legislature reconsiders this permission to go native with handguns."

Surely that counts whether the guns are openly carried or concealed though?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:55 AM

We so need a federal permit and take this awayffrom the states. They lost their minds. Greg is so right, only four states require concealed. We are going back to dodge city and doc holiday. God help us

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 10:18 AM

I predict there will be a morbid list now, of the open carry folks who shoot innocent by-standers for various reasons.

NPR story.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 11:02 AM

Speaking of people with guns, HERE'S some domestic terrorists people actually SHOULD be afraid of.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 03:19 PM

Calling the invasion of the wildlife refuge building a "peaceful" protest is somewhat disingenuous, in that that the participants are quoted as saying they will use their weapons "if needs be". The only reason it is currently "peaceful" is that no one has yet challenged them.

I have been at the Refuge several times and the question I have is as to how the 'militia' got in. If no workers were there when they arrived, it appears they are guilty of breaking and entering.

My suggestion: Have a couple of uniformed and badged - but UNARMED - law officers enter the premises and order the 'patriots' to disperse or face arrest. If they are disregarded or held hostage, the perpetrators can then be charged with interfering with the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 03:39 PM

Most federal sites, like post offices and national parks have policies about no guns on the premises. USFW is a federal site, so there may be more law that can be thrown at them (though the BLM is also federal - whatever happened to the Bundy's at that location?) It's a slow-moving train wreck, watching these fools act out their drama that clearly demonstrates they have no understanding of the law or the Constitution (that they claim to be defending).

"What shall we watch tonight, dear? Downton Abbey?"

"No, let's turn on the news and see what goes on at the Oregon Wildlife Refuge. It's less predictable."

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 06:02 PM

Blimey O'Reilly yet again! Don't you luvverly lot over there ever tie yourselves in a load of complex untiable knots just becoz of your grotty out-of-control self-contradictory uninterpretable gun-laws. Now if you'd only started from the off with some sensible ones like ours:- like, say, you can't have the buggaz without some genuinely convincing reason + a decent level of control...

Oh, wotza use...
Think I'll go back to bed.....

luvyazall justasame mind... & your great country... It's just that

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:06 AM

Without going into a lengthy analysis of why they were ok when we were kids and not so much now, toy guns need to be banned. They look too much like the real thing. After all, we don't have candy cigarettes any more either. Simulating lethal activities is just a bad idea in 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 05:52 AM

The US army was used to end the Whisky tax rebellion. It should be used now with orders to shoot on sight and shoot to kill against this bunch of murderous Bundyite retards. It might raise the average IQ slightly, much like the successful extermination of fundagelical murderers at Waco (pronounced "Whacko") where over 80 menaces to society were removed for the loss of only 6 pest controllers.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 07:01 AM

"…toy guns need to be banned."

Not here they don't. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 10:46 AM

' (pronounced "Whacko") '

No. It is pronounced WAKE-o.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 11:58 AM

They have occupied a federal compound while armed with the intent of overthrowing the government and instituting what they feel is a better one. Granted, that's in the Declaration of Independence as a reason for the American Revolution, but then, if the Rebels had lost they would have been hanged as traitors.

So, these people are traitors and are waging war against the United States. Wage war against the US and you lose your US citizenship (if you have it).

Turn off the electricity, the water, cancel their phone service, and the rest. No one (especially the press) allowed in or out of a restricted area; armored vehicles tow away their vehicles. 100 people inside an unheated building, no toilet facilities, no food, no escape, no contact with the outside world -- how long before they surrender? And if they come out shooting, well, they only have so many bullets and the cops, etc. have bullet-proof vehicles in which to stay. The Refuge is 30 miles from town so there is little danger to others.

Then the courts take over.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM

No. It is pronounced WAKE-o.

True enough - but the Branch Davidians are pronounced WHACK-o and David Koresh is pronounced MUR-der-er.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:47 PM

It is being reported that they are now bringing children to the refuge presumably to be used as human shields - a tactic no doubt learned from the Hamas terrorists in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:49 PM

Or Waco

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:52 PM

I agree with Rap. Cut off ingress and egress, their services, and leave them the hell alone. There's no real need to DO anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 05:56 PM

They only want their 15 minutes, I commend law enforcement for their patience. They got jobs and work to do, they will tire of it and go peacefully

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:11 PM

I doubt whether any of them have the ability to hold down a job. But they will probably want to go home soon to fuck their mothers, sisters, or children.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:23 PM

Arrest the whole bunch of 'em, patience be damned. If this was a "Black Lives Matter" demonstration, they'd all of 'em been in jail yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:27 PM

No Greg. They'd have been dead. And they should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 07:35 PM

The rural community they claim to be "protecting" is not amused by these outsiders coming into the area and supposedly speaking up for them. The locals want these idiots to go away. (via NPR interviews this evening)

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 09:01 PM

On Twitter, there's a "#yallqueda". Seriously, they're looking for attention. I'm happy ignoring them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

Today, Obama is to make an announcement about 'some' restrictions on gun sales.. like at gun shows, etc.

Watch for the shit to hit the fan as the "slippery slope" fallacy gets a full workout by the 2nd amendment freaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 01:39 PM

Wait bill, one can support the 2nd admendment
And ststill support closing the gun show loophole. Sensible gun laws make sense

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 03:07 PM

Just listened, it doesn't shut them down as I hoped but even a little is better than nothing. I love the back door approach of making them dealers hence requiring full bg checks

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 03:11 PM

Sensible gun laws make sense

Unfortunately, Dan, not to any of the Republican presidential hopefuls or the voters that support 'em.

They'd elect Cliven Bundy (is he related to Ted, by the way?)president in a New York minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 04:05 PM

Rapparee original presented a very cogent explanation but woefully left out the racial component.

Endless experiments prove white and black cops shoot the black suspect and overestimate the age of a black suspect more often than white suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jan 16 - 04:28 PM

Say whut???

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:02 AM

I get a kick out of all these posts by people who have never been a cop, and have no clue what it is like to be confronted by someone who has a gun.Survival is the prime consideration. I was issued a .38 S&W when I went into law enforcement, but they didn't give me any bullets! At least Barney Fife had ONE bullet! No one was afraid of me, because I didn't carry it unless I was working at night, or dealing with a known bad guy. I had their respect, not their fear or contempt.

Modern pellet guns ARE deadly weapons. I have one that can put a pellet right through a phone book, and could easily kill a person. Such lethal weapons are not new; the Lewis&Clark expedition had a rifle that was charged with compressed air.

When someone is stupid enough to remove the orange strip at the muzzle of an exact replica of a 1915 Colt automatic pistol, it is a tragedy going somewhere to happen.
Then, there is also the fact that too many towns simply don't worry about the qualifications of their cops.If you are warm and breathing, and can recite the 4th amendment, you are in.(I'll bet, most can't)

I remember in the US Treasury school of law enforcement and criminal investigation, that part where we had to walk down a street and decide in a split second to shoot or not, it was VERY stressful for fear of shooting an old woman with a cane, or getting shot by a thug with a shotgun. You can imagine what the real scene is like.
Anyway, it's fun to speculate, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:25 AM

We don't look on it as any sort of 'fun' from over this side, K. We just continue to gaze in constant amazement at how a great nation like yours can bear to go on'n'on'n'on making such a complete cockup of this one particular aspect [gun-carry laws] of modern life. But I know from experience that all I shall get in reply is that the situation has grown to the point beyond which anyone can control it and if we were there we'd know what was what and anyhow butt out of what is your own sacred biznis and fuckall to do with us ·······ad·∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞·in·♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠

& I STILL luvyazall justersame

bugger·it

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:26 AM

In my not so humble opinion, you don't have to be a Yank to express your opinion here.

The whole bloody thing is madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:13 AM

"When someone is stupid enough to remove the orange strip at the muzzle of an exact replica of a 1915 Colt automatic pistol, it is a tragedy going somewhere to happen"

What's to stop someone putting an orange strip on the muzzle of an actual 1915 Colt automatic pistol and fooling folk into thinking it's an exact replica?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 11:46 AM

"... amazement at how a great nation like yours can bear to go on'n'on'n'on making such a complete cockup of this one particular aspect [gun-carry laws] of modern life. "

And the alternative is? NOT going on? This where we are, and some of us who CANNOT "bear it" are trying to do what we can. That is what President Obama just did.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 11:51 AM

Talk, talk......after Obama's speech there was a huge run on gun purchases with Smith and Wesson shares surging up by 12%. Gun dealers are saying that Obama is their best salesman.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:14 PM

Having been, in another and much younger incarnation, a cop, I can agree with Kendall. I knew another cop, a Black guy, who went unarmed into bars to talk with gangbangers. They knew he was cop, and he had RESPECT because he was fair, nonjudgemental, and was doing his job as best he knew how. Once he had to arrest one of them and he did it without fuss. He was one of the best and bravest men I've ever met.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 10:15 AM

Now, lets move on to some REAL IDIOTS in the pantheon of National Rifle Assassination crazies...

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 12:29 PM

Kendall is right and normally is. But the sportman channel did have a nice segment on the Remington 870 by the nra last night. Great shotgun, bagged a lot of grouse with one

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:32 PM

Rem 870? Piece of junk. The Ithaca Model 37 Featherlight is what ya want, Dan.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM

Ithaca all the way!!! Featherweight in 20 gauge (I'm getting too old for the 12).

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:05 PM

Oh I say. Don't you chaps have Purdeys? Or Woodwards? Nowhere nearly as dear but quite nice are the Army and Navy spirals.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:59 PM

Naw the old 870 wingmaster best shotgunever
But your feather weigh is outstanding

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:50 PM

Yes, RB, but we can't afford them. I myself have two "two pipe" shotguns one in 12 and the other in 20 bore.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:09 PM

Wanna sell one rap. I need it for the zombies

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:12 PM

My dad had a double barrel Fox, all engraved. Beautiful. Damascus barrel so black power only. I think my mom gave it away. What a collector piece

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:21 PM

Nuthin' beats a Daisy Red Ryder.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:27 PM

I saw a double barrel daisy bb gun on the road Show. Richard those a beautiful collector guns

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:24 PM

Of course, if you wish to give me a Purdey or a Woodward I wouldn't refuse it.... Drake is selling one that would be quite acceptable:

Woodward, London. Superb pair of light weight 20ga. O/U sidelock game guns made for King Carol II of Romania in 1937. Weight: 6 Lbs. Stock Dimensions: 15"x 1 3/8"x 2 ¾"x ¼" cast-off. Fine 27" Vickers Steel barrels with original 2 ¾" chambers have mint bores (both barrels of both guns all measure .615"). Gun #1 is choked .018"/.008" with minimum wall thickness .027"/.029" and Gun #2 is choked .023"/.016"with minimum wall thickness .027"/.028". Both sets of barrels retain most of the original black finish. Both actions and locks retain much of the original hardening color and are mechanically perfect with barrels tight and on-the-face. All engraving crisp and showing no signs of wear. Original, nicely figured, semi-pistol grip stocks and splinter forends have slight wear but no major flaws. Pistol grip caps are of horn. Originally supplied from Woodward with double triggers they were later converted to Purdey single triggers. During the years shortly after the turn of the century, Boss and Woodward were turning out what were considered the finest O/U shotguns in the world. There was always some disagreement among sportmen as to which was the better design and the consensus seems to have been pretty evenly split. Purdey purchased the Woodward firm in September, 1948, and since that date all Purdey O/U guns, even to this day, have been built on the Woodward O/U action which is a further testament to the excellence of the original design. Overall this is a superb pair of vintage guns built when the quality of Woodward guns was at its zenith just prior to WWII.

They are asking only USD 165,000.00

I'll be happy to provide FFL information for shipping.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:35 PM

Sorry rap just bought it, you missed the boat

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:37 PM

Now I want a British double barrel rifle like the elephant hunters used on safari.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:48 PM

My brother has a Baikal double rifle in .45-70, but I don't think he's willing to part with it just yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:51 PM

Oh boy love it

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 06:53 PM

Nicer ones here.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 07:01 PM

Get yourself a Holland & Holland .500 Nitro Express, Dan. Guaranteed bloody nose with every shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 08:22 PM

And cheap guy's only 45k wow I on it, yes the 500 nitro double

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 08:31 PM

I've been reading about the newly - and widespread - made legal ablity to 'open carry'. have a couple of thoughts that segue from this thread topic a bit:

Remember in the old movies when the bar sign advised armed men to 'Park your sidearm here', or something of that nature? What makes today's gun packers think that our society is more peaceable than it used to be?

Second thought:

If we must allow open carry at our grocer's, our theaters, our sports arenas,et al, why not allow it in our legislatures, our police stations, and other regulated places. Surely it is not because our legislators and police officers are afraid of people with guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 08:56 PM

Got it, I put it on your credit card is that ok rap

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 08:59 PM

Ebbie since open carry will be an option, forget the handguns, lets all lug shotguns.. Forget those pea shooters and go wells Fargo stagecoach on em

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 01:30 AM

Ebbie, most towns in the Olde Weste -- including Tombstone, Dodge City, Ellsworth, and El Paso -- forbade the carrying of firearms. You were to check them somewhere when you came into town and pick them up when you left.   By the way, the towns included Juneau.

Old dude, check out the .950 SJS.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 03:03 PM

Shotguns? Youse don't know shotguns fer shite. 870? Ithica? Pfffft! Baikal man here. O/U full over modified 12 with double triggers. Them Ruskies know how to build a shotgun. Light and accurate and chambered/barreled for close cover for small game. Slugs? Knock a hole in a hole at 100m with the full. My Bro, a European champion skeet shooter had a Browning that now costs over $30k Canuck (just to start with the plain Jane) couldn't keep up with me in the bush with my second hand Baikal that I paid $300 for, second hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:42 PM

I can smell the vodka from here gnu. Only shotgun is the Remington 870, all others are well not Remington 870 s

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:44 PM

I bagged more grouse, pheasant and Woodcock than sand in the Sahara with my 870.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jan 16 - 06:48 PM

Next ya will tell me the Remington 700 is the best rifle ever made, and I will have to agree :)

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Woodcock
Date: 22 Jan 16 - 04:41 PM

These people behaved like savages
{click} 

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 09:44 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/18/woman-kills-self-adjusting-bra-holster/23640143/

It's an old story (a year old), but there's a lesson for many in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:26 AM

Has Ms. Bond been nominated as a Darwin Award contender?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 11:35 AM

One can but hope, Greg.