BS: UK teachers emigrating

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Tucker
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 12:59 AM

The Cat Who Walked By Himself has lost his way? Oh Dear! be careful of the hurtling bus!

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 07:40 AM

"The Cat Who Walked By Himself, that's me!"
No wonder you lost your way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 01:38 AM

I have a half-sister, Jim, but no brothers, real or metaphorical. Nor no band neither - haven't been in a band since the much-lamented(!) Easy Riders Skiffle Group broke up in 1956, after precisely one gig: I only sing solo — see my youtube channel. The Cat Who Walked By Himself, that's me!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:56 PM

Jesus wasn't a Thatcherite Steve. Sadly, Th*tcher actually existed unfortunately. He is just an excuse for people's actions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:06 PM

""Name-calling doesn't hack it either Mike" --- Jim 0902"
Not a complaint Mike, nor amnesia; a statement that you are avoiding the question
"It's only objectionable when it comes with nothing else."as far as I'm concerned - to makes my point for me - can't complain about that.
Still no response to what I put up - I'm afraid you've become as predictable as your little band of brothers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 12:37 PM

Don't you, Steve? He denies at 1116 having written what he did at 0902, and you 'see no inconsistency'?

Specsavers?

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 12:07 PM

I see no inconsistency in those two quotes, Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:26 AM

"I never complained of name calling" --- Jim 1116

======

"Name-calling doesn't hack it either Mike" --- Jim 0902

======

Are you seeing anybody about this short-term amnesia you appear to be suffering from, Jim?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:16 AM

By the way - I never complained of name calling (greed wasn't aimed at you anyway)
I couldn't be arsed one way or the other what people call me as long as they respond honestly to what I say.
It's only objectionable when it comes with nothing else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:16 AM

By the way - I never complained of name calling (greed wasn't aimed at you anyway)
I couldn't be arsed one way or the other what people call me as long as they respond honestly to what I say.
It's only objectionable when it comes with nothing else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:12 AM

"No -- 'envy politics' never a usage of mine"
I'm pretty sure it was Mike - and not too long ago
I might be wrong, if so - I apologies, of course.
Regarding abuse - I find it somewhat ludicrous that you should claim it after having just indulged in it yourself "
platitudinous self-righteous left·wingery"
Still find it strange that you righties should respond to complaints of inequality with "leftie" abuse - maybe I should go and join something.
Now - how about responding to the five links I put up earlier - untrue, unimportant or just uninteresting - or what.
Stop hiding behind waffle and show us your willie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:52 AM

No -- 'envy politics' never a usage of mine, Jim; not a phrase you will find me using anywhere above or previously, I don't think. Get your abuses rightly aimed. It is, too, a response to what you choose to call (self-flatteringly imo) your 'points'. Pretty blunt points I'd call them, which won't ever impale my postulates!

So accusations of 'greed' do not constitute name-calling, but 'platitudinous self-righteousness' does? Pray expound...

You're back in your 'higher-confusion' mode, I fear.

Thompson -- re your post 2 back, 0848: name one society that conforms to your unctuous description, with accruement of those benefits you enumerate.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:02 AM

"Neither does platitudinous self-righteous left·wingery, for that matter..."
Name-calling doesn't hack it either Mike
Try responding to the points rather than resorting to the old usial schoolyard taunts
You are one of those who believes striving for equality of opportunity is "envy politics" if my memory served me right.
How about justifying that accusation - it would be a refreshing change from hit-and-run sniping.
What else is new, indeed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 08:48 AM

Maybe because equal societies - where people earn a relatively equal amount of money for relatively equal work - are better societies to live in - fewer crimes, lower infant and maternal mortality, better health, longer life expectancy, better education, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 08:43 AM

I can do no better than quote Mark 4:25:

"For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath."

Jesus was a Thatcherite!

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 07:44 AM

"They've got something let's take it away from them - Not know as the politics of envy for nothing."

Sounds very much like a summary of the policies of the current Conservative government to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 07:35 AM

Neither does platitudinous self-righteous left·wingery, for that matter...
So what else is new...

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 07:23 AM

Course he isn't - greed never does
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 05:38 AM

He isn't listening, Jim. He's repeating this nonsense over two threads now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 05:37 AM

Correction
"Nobody wants it to be "mine" - except you, apparently
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 05:34 AM

"OMG!!!! THEY are rich, some of that should be mine - WHY?"
A typical Tory response to worldwide poverty, mass suffering and death
Nobody wants it to be "mine" - the mass of the people of this planet create the wealth and produce the means of life - those who actually own ithe wealth and benefit from the work of those who produce it actually produce nothing.
The fact that this doesn't matter to you and your type makes you what you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 05:05 AM

OMG!!!! THEY are rich, some of that should be mine - WHY?

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 04:45 AM

Ironic that the piece about the UK's yawning gulf between the pay of the richest and the rest was published in the Huffington Post, which famously makes its writers work for free.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 04:10 AM

"Who are the "THEY" you are wittering on about?"
These people:
WORLDWIDE
FASTEST IN BRITAIN
RETURN TO VICTORIAN TIMES
EFFECTS
THE US
This is what you and yours excuse with propaganda slogans like "politics of envy"
Don't think for one minute you will respond to any of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 02:13 AM

A very good article in today's Guardian about teachers emigrating. Balanced and informative.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 08:13 PM

The same "they" as you referred to in your 3.57 post.

Yes,I know how important the stock market is. And how we are all at the mercy of its mindless ups and downs. In the same way that Musket tells me that I can't avoid private medicine, we can't avoid the stock market running our lives in the background. Look where it gets us. Booms, busts, crisis after crisis, cheats, crashes, mad panics. But it's all we've got so no use castigating the poor buggers who have no option but to be a part of the system that's predicated on it. Miners need pensions, in case you haven't noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 07:53 PM

Forgot to comment about this from Shaw:

"speculating in stocks and shares"

For quite some time Shaw one of the biggest players on the UK Stock Exchange was the National Union of Miners. Speculating in stocks and shares is how most pensions are funded and insurances are paid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 07:46 PM

"They've got something that they acquired improperly, by exploiting people to whom they paid low wages, by charging extortionate rents, by speculating in stocks and shares, by cheating in an unscrutinised banking system, by inheriting fortunes that they didn't do one scrap of work for or by hiring armies of accountants to help them avoid paying tax."

Who are the "THEY" you are wittering on about?

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 07:39 PM

They've got something that they acquired improperly, by exploiting people to whom they paid low wages, by charging extortionate rents, by speculating in stocks and shares, by cheating in an unscrutinised banking system, by inheriting fortunes that they didn't do one scrap of work for or by hiring armies of accountants to help them avoid paying tax. Let's work out a way of making the distribution of wealth much fairer to the people who have created that wealth via their blood, sweat, tears, job insecurity and low pay. That's the accurate version, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 07:27 PM

"Not know as the politics of envy for nothing."
Only by right wing extremists
Equality of opportunity = "envy"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 03:57 PM

" sorry to those wanting to discuss teachers. I'd rather do that too. The rest of the world seems to be talking doctors..."

I guess it got onto "greedy" doctors because GUEST,JTT didn't have any examples of Irish teachers converted to "greedy teachers" by Thatcher.
After all he did not have the example of Judith and Fergus Wilson, two teachers who between 1986 and 2009 acquired a "buy to let" property empire of somewhere between 700 and 900 houses worth an estimated £180 billion - Are they "greedy" or just astute?

Greed has always been a feature of the human race and at no time at all has it ever been considered as being anything other than a vice.

Coveting on the other hand is the backbone of "socialism" - They've got something let's take it away from them - Not know as the politics of envy for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 09:21 AM

Bang on. Many junior doctors are more qualified and experienced than staff grade doctors and GPs. I'm quite used to nurses comforting patients and relatives saying they are being operated on by a registrar or senior house officer. Both sound good, both experienced qualified doctors, both junior doctors even though in many hospitals the registrars are often the senior resident doctors at night for many specialities. (Consultants are available by phone or being called in, but not always there at the time and to be fair aren't needed for most work. Consultants are however the named responsible person for a patient's care and have to be comfortable with the scope of devolved responsibilities, including by nurse practitioners, prescribing nurses and pharmacists etc)

Bizarrely, despite BMA noting the problems of the term "junior" the bloody government and HEE came up with new titles for house officers and senior house officers. House officers are called foundation doctors and senior house officers are called core trainees. All qualified doctors, all working within their competence. The teaching is for the next level up, not the level they make patient decisions at. It doesn't instil confidence though in members of the public. I qualified as a doctor aged 24, I was a junior doctor till I was 35. Many in certain specialties, especially surgery, take even longer.

Anyway, sorry to those wanting to discuss teachers. I'd rather do that too. The rest of the world seems to be talking doctors...

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 08:48 AM

I wish we could get rid of the label "junior doctors", which suggests fresh-faced youths, rather than qualified doctors.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 07:10 AM

Doctors are people, not an economical outlook. I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find amongst our ranks socialists, communists, fascists, liberals, religious nuts, floating voters and all points in between.

You'll find those struggling with student debt, professional fees, mortgage, childcare and divorce, those doing well personally and those who piss it up the wall.

Come to think of it, teachers too...

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 05:57 AM

Oh, heavens, I'm not characterising all doctors as greedy - my own doc is part of a wonderful practice where the GPs treat private and public patients some days of the week and run a service in a grindingly poor part of the city on others.

As for the election, I wonder will it make a difference. It looks as if Enda Kenny will be standing on the podium as Taoiseach during the 1916 commemorations, surrounded by a whirling cloud of fury as the ghosts of the dead attempt to curse the values of Fine Gael; the master of arrogance Alan Kelly, who scraped in as the mud on the voters' shoes on the multipleth count, is looking to unseat Tánaiste Joan Burton, who also scraped in, to 'remake' the Labour Party…

As for the left – well, the votes voted in large numbers for independents; not all of those were left. Though the pro-life element was certainly rejected across the spectrum.

For those of yeez out foreign, like, next time there's an Irish election try and tune in to the two- to three-day counting of the votes. Because we use Proportional Representation, this can be deeply entertaining; for instance, Chris Andrews appeared to be topping the poll in the first count, then slid down and down as the transfers were redistributed. The count is always a joyous experience of hubris punished and a feast of schadenfreude.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 05:43 AM

""Greedy" Doctors in Ireland was due to Thatcher "
Not sure I agree about the doctors (a local doctor, Michael Harty, here in Clare, has just been elected to the Dail on a 'protest at what's happening to the health service' ticket) but the general downturn in living standards is entirely due to our politicians having accepted the "me-me-me" values respectablised by Thatcher and her cronies.
Thankfully, the outcome of this election has been a huge kick in the arse for the right, a swing to the left and the virtual annihilation of a Parliamentary Labour Party which sold its soul by cohabiting with the right wing by entering into coalition with the rightest of rights - serve them ***** right, in every sense.
About time it happened across the pond
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 05:37 AM

The view of greed changed markedly in the 1980s, until then greed was seen as a vice. Thomas Aquinas described greed as a sin against God. And indeed greed is very close to covetousness, and there is a Commandment against that. But in the 1980s, Ivan Boesky, and of course Gordon Gekko (I know he wasn't real, but he was a caricature of a very real type), and Harry Enfield's loadsamoney (which was again a caricature of a real attitude) made greed respectable. So although it was not Thatcher alone, it was the Anglo-Saxon world of the Reagan-Thatcher years, and the attitudes that this engendered, which made respectable something which had been regarded, correctly in my view, as a serious vice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 05:21 AM

What were the ponies?

Yes, I do blame Thatcher, and Reagan, for popularising an attitude where money is seen as the most important thing. It's an attitude where people who don't make a lot of money are called losers. People are expected to want large amounts of money for their work, to recognise their 'talent'.

The Thatcher-Reagan-AynRand way of thinking replaced a previously popular idea that money was not central. As de Valera once put it,

The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living…

Frugal comfort would be seen as loserdom post-Thatcher et al.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 04:48 AM

Jim is right when he talks of schools needing to provide an all-round education. The problem is what goes into it and how it should be delivered, and which bits at what age. All-round means preparing you for the world, not preparing you for the world of work. Nothing to it, is there? What we don't really need is big knobs in the CBI, etc., setting the agenda. I'd also politely suggest that small samples of assignments in a narrow field of endeavour may not be the best guide to overall standards.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 04:01 AM

I agree, Steve, but wonder how clear you were with the students. Did you tell them all of this culture and consideration of.the environment is really vital stuff and can improve yourlife no end, but be clear that the chances of it helping to get a job are minimal. You, students, need to be clear that is not its purpose

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 03:58 AM

Teribus, greed may have been around for thousands of years, but in the UK it was pushed into the mainstream in 1979.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 03:56 AM

Sure, lets provide more handouts to our own bankers rather than protecting our heritage with schemes like this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 03:38 AM

" I disagree with Jim, schools are not meant to be simply places for job training."
Didn't say that I believe that is what they are "meant for" - but in my experience, that is what they were and still are, certainly among those of us who underwent State education.
I was actually told by a teacher that all I needed when I left school was the ability to tot up my pay-packet at the end of the week.
He was reprimanding me for being late for his maths class - I had been kept behind by a music teacher at a previous class who wanted to explain something I was having problems with.
The maths teacher angrily demanded of me; "what do you expect to do when you leave school - sing in the streets?"
Tings improved with my twin sisters a few years later who began were part of the Comprehensive Education System.
Of course it is the responsibility of an Education System to provide an all-round education, but it should not be a case of an either-or, the arts, ecology or the humanities or the practical subjects.
At the present time in Britain, none are being given the attention they merit - unless you are prepared to pay for it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 03:37 AM

You can't force anything. In reality, and I can only speak of comparisons in medics, people returning with a different perspective and experience are gold and are in demand.

I don't know about teachers but doctors pay their own way and the hospitals where junior doctors are placed get service delivery during that time so nobody owes anybody anything. In any event, many come here for training from other countries and of course return to their country of origin at the end as per their visa requirement. Next month, a post here in Glasgow is being advertised. A final year registrar from Nigeria who is a front runner to get the post has to return home in a few weeks in order to apply for it. Madness and what's more, The Scottish government are as bad as their mates in Westminster in confusing immigration with requirement.

Out of interest, I usually have a laugh at Terribulus's shorter posts whilst not bothering reading his longer communiques. I thought I was bad drifting this teacher thread into medics but Th*tcher? Pit ponies??   Has he been eating cheese before being put down for the night?

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 03:23 AM

GUEST,JTT I think "greed" has been around for quite some time and was not introduced to the world all of a sudden by a middle-aged woman in the United Kingdom in 1979 - but apparently she was somehow responsible for driving into extinction a breed of ponies between 1979 and 1990 when to all intent and purpose they had been cross-bred out of existence almost 100 years previously.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 02:38 AM

How does the British government propose to force teachers to teach there for five years? How would it work physically? Or would they refuse to allow teachers to come back to Britain without paying the price of their State teacher training plus interest?
It seems an odd kind of idea. In Ireland, where we have had haemorrhaging emigration since 2007, the attitude is that if a teacher teaches abroad for a few years s/he will come back with experience gained abroad and a broader worldview.
We have the same problem with greedy doctors; a matter of our attitude to money having been warped and infected by Thatcherism, in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 02:35 AM

Your NHS dentist is private too.

DMcG. Yes, the management consultants provide lazy literature, but many inject private sector terms along with private sector methodology. Another Musket tells of when he got Unipart to help him improve throughput of patients in a large hospital. They know about logistics whilst clinical teams know about patients. At no point did either side refer to patients as replacement headlight bulbs. (His paper he published on their experience was quite interesting. But I'm sure he'll tell you about it if you ask him.)

Back to teaching, I'm sure I'm not the only one shocked at the low standard of written English by younger people these days. I am involved with teaching medical students, whose grades at A Level do tend to be the pick of the crop but whilst I don't confess to excellent use of language myself, (the sciences were my strong point) even I struggle to see merit in some of the written assignments I assess.

When I get dragged (kicking and screaming) onto interview panels for staff members, especially administrative, I might be getting older but I find myself ranting at the quality of the outcome of some schools these days. If the better teachers are emigrating?? (So are many UK younger doctors for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 16 - 09:21 PM

Well, the real world is not just about going to work. The real world is about culture, tolerance of others, looking after the environment, etc. Anyone who thinks that preparing children for the real world is about showing them how to weld plates together, or how to peel and fry potatoes, or how to carry a hod, isn't living in the same real world as I am. Being able to do all those things is wonderful. But it is not the job of schools to show children how to do them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Feb 16 - 09:08 PM

I agree totally with What Steve Shaw posted at 5:22. I disagree with Jim, schools are not meant to be simply places for job training. As for "real life" , that is another of those nebulous phrases , like "the real world"! What does it mean and who has a version of it that suits all ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK teachers emigrating
From: meself
Date: 28 Feb 16 - 09:07 PM

I have a niece who went to England from Canada to take a teaching job last year. It was, apparently, a school of tough kids in a tough neighbourhood - however, I never heard any complaints about the kids; it was all about never-ending bureaucratic harassment and interference. A friend who had come with her quit at Christmas; my niece stuck it out (barely) and quit at the end of the year. However, she went back in September - but will work only as a substitute, so as not to have to deal with all the administrative BS.