BS: Triage, or 'where am I'

Subject: what wysiwyg said
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:05 PM

Did you know there isn't/wasn't a "where am I" thread on here before? Maybe that's because I'm the only one asking....and the rest of you know where you are.

Credit where credit is due: Wysiwyg spoke of "triage" on another thread which is what inspired me to use it here. She was speaking of the community experience, the word "ministry" was used too I recall. And the part of her post that woke me up, was when she spoke of people to whom she had given verbal advice, who "aren't read to listen." She went on to speak of how, years later, people who had consulted with her and who had not responded to her counsel at the time, would contact her again and say, okay, after all this time, NOW I hear you."

So, enough about Wysiwyg. What about me?

I am still smarting from the hostilities that resulted in the recent policy change at the Mudcat Café. And I wasn't even a direct target of those hostilities. I had to stop and ask myself why it smarts if it wasn't directed at me.

What smarts is, of course, old scar tissue, from long before encountering the community of Mudcatters. Old memories still hurt enough to change the way I draw breath. I have many memories growing up in a household in which almost everyone raised their voices, and nobody listened. This was a routine thing, happening several times a day. In fact, on some day when the vocalizing failed to happen, it was not a relief, but a warning signal that something much more dangerous might be happening.

Interestingly enough, the subjects about which voices were raised were not the subjects that have been getting forum threads closed of late. The vocalizers in my past, were not carrying on about religion or science, or debate versus verbal abuse, for example.

Oh, and in the interest of honesty, from childhood I was schooled when to raise my voice and when to shut up, which is to say that I too contributed to the vocalizing in my day. It is a fact that I did some yelling and hollering myself, and called people names, and so on. The others who were present will vouch for that, I would be lying if I said otherwise.

Examining the problem here and now, I observe two things about what I experienced as a routine occurrence. One, is that mentally speaking, the people who raised their voices were already decided. Nobody actually changed their minds at the end of the day. There was much verbal pressure to admit, you know, that my way is the right way, and if you don't think my way, you're wrong. But in fact the vocalizing decided nothing and changed nothing, and everybody ended up repeating what they had yelled and hollered on previous occasions, too many times to count.

The other thing, is all that emotion. A verbal or mental spark would ignite volatile emotion, and: ignition! Off we go! The words might not be all that emotional, even the topic might not be all that emotional, but there was definitely emotion fuelling the engine of the verbal carryings-on. And no words on anyone's part were of avail to check the emotion.

I'm going to pause here because it's really embarrassing to open up about this, and I have little alarms going off in my mind about it. Wysiwyg spoke of ministry, well, I am nothing like a minister nor am I in the helping profession. I ask for help more than I give it. Maybe somebody else here understands how I feel. I could go on but this post is long enough. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:45 PM

Well I'll put my cards on the table and say that, however Max might see it as a defeat, the policy change is a thoroughly good one. It is of course, early days, but we currently have a thread about religion (the Easter one) that is just as impassioned as previous threads but which survives very well because we have been spared trollish interventions by anonymous cowards. Not to say that it will last, of course. ;-)

As for people not changing their minds, don't rush to judgement. I learn a lot from debating on forums, though the manly stubbornness in me might not always let me show it. I'm a bit slow-witted when I debate face to face, often wishing hours afterwards that I'd said something I hadn't thought of at the time. On here I can have a good think before I post and keep my cool (I see others failing to be as measured, and sometimes feel sorry for them). Personally, I haven't decided about anything in advance. I simply can't conduct myself in that fashion.

The most important thing to remember is that contributors to online forums are, at best, a bit wacky, otherwise they wouldn't do it. That isn't to say that forums aren't of value. Obviously, I think they are, but, as I'm here, I'm clearly biased, and a post like this one does take me ages to produce (being a one-finger typist). The main thing is to realise that this is good on its own terms, but it's not real life. Keep it in proportion and never, never let it make you lose sleep!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:54 PM

Do you know this book?

Deborah Tannen: The Argument Culture

Subject: 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:59 PM

So where am I?

My awareness today allows me to examine myself quietly and calmly. A simple thing to say, but it took decades of counseling and practice to accomplish this much. I have practiced thinking, stopping to think, before I speak, and today I can do this practice with some success. Said another way, I can listen to myself and be aware of my own feelings and thoughts, and I can do so without spouting and projecting towards some other person. It's embarrassing to admit how many years of practice were required before that discipline became routine for me.

Today I can question what is/was decided in my mind. I can investigate my thinking for decisions, then question the decisions I find already in place.

You notice I don't say much about my perceptions of the emotions or thoughts of others, the things that others experience. If this sounds cautious or defensive, or conflict-averse, all that is true of my behavior. In truth, it has been a life-long problem for me that I merge with the thoughts and emotions of others, without even trying to, and that I have all I can do to keep myself to myself and not get lost.

Gosh, I never talk about these things. Exhale. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

You're doing all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 09:24 PM

There are many things we don't talk about. Some of them are so very much a part of us that talking about them would be like ripping a part of yourself off. Others become less painful, more of an excrescence which will, when the time is ripe, permit the healing of words and talking and understanding. Both make us what we were, are, and will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 01:54 AM

What's the policy change, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 02:05 AM

I agree, We are complex critters and all sorts of things add up to make us who we are. It does take effort - and sometimes pain - to reflect on how we got to here, but as Socrates said "The unconsidered life is not worth living". And yes, in some cases shouting about something can be because that we have formed a settled opinion about it after a long struggle and we don't want that wound opened again. Though silence can be driven by exactly the same reluctance to revisit things that we would rather not think about.

As a personal example, more than forty years ago I was asked to warn a university friend that a third party was not to be trusted and I didn't do so, essentially because I thought it would break our friendship. As a result when some years later my friend got badly treated by them, I have always felt I've had an some indirect responsibility for it. Last year while speaking to my friend we discussed it for the first time. The feeling is still there, of course, but is healed a little by my friend's understanding, and I think we each have a more mature view of what actually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 02:43 AM

Thompson, the policy change was to make the BS section for logged-in members only. Anyone not logged-in can read the threads, but only logged-in bona-fide members can post to them.

As Steve said earlier, Max allowed the change but was very sniffy and ungracious about it (even though anyone with more than one working brain cell could see that it's the right thing to do, and would be good for the forum). But the evidence is here that, certainly at the moment, it's a change for the better, and I personally welcome it.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:23 AM

keberoxu, this is very interesting. I know exactly what you mean about people 'shouting' and getting aggressive on a forum, (and in real life) I agree that mostly, their ideas are firmly fixed, and they are reacting with strops rather than considering other viewpoints. That type will probably never adjust their opinions or learn very much at all about other people.
What upsets me a lot is the disgraceful name-calling and outright insulting comments that some posters here have slung around. Some threads have degenerated into a shameful slanging match of rudeness and childishness. However, I did notice that many of the offenders were actually members, so I can't see how the new rules will stop them.
I'm truly sorry you grew up in a noisy, shouty household. I've been a teacher all my working life, and have met several families where everyone bellows at everyone else, and no-one is heard. It has a marked effect on the personalities of the children. They either become aggressive bullies themselves, or retreat into a timid, subdued silence. It isn't healthy either way.
I often look at the Mumsnet site, and I notice there that over-aggressive posts or insulting, unacceptable comments are immediately withdrawn. Posters can 'report' a nasty post, and it seems to be monitored very assiduously. It's a huge money-making venture of course, with a large staff. But you don't see any vicious nastiness on there. It's censorship, I see that, but in any community one has to have a modicum of good manners, or the whole thing descends into some gruesome and bitter slanging match.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:50 AM

Eliza, I think that there will still be bad behaviour from the bunch of 'Usual Suspects' (and before any of them start moaning on about 'naming names', we all know who they are and, more importantly, they know who they are, so naming them or not is an irrelevance), but everyone will know who they are, and that every post by member x is actually the same person.

There will always be bad behaviour, some people just can't help themselves, but removing the pernicious effect of 'GUEST' rabble-rousing must surely be for the better?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM

Perhaps I don't take the BS section to be serious. Above the line it can be, and often is, interesting and informative (I'm still after the words of a parody by the way)

Below the line it's just a bit of silliness for the most part, don't take it so seriously would be my advice.

The parody by the way is the story of a sailor who is seduced by a woman, he ends up lamenting "Mother I am quite undone"

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:02 AM

as keberoxu has effectively pointed out: shouting is not communicating. Though it is sort of therapy, it is temporary and the listeners (those that are listening) don't necessarily enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:04 AM

I know for a fact that some members log out and post as guests, I don't think that was acceptable behaviour and the guest ban will put an end to that.

In saying that there were guests who simply did not want to become full members for their own private reasons and they often contributed a different perspective to the threads without being abusive. I will be sorry to see them go.
I think the reason these people did not register is that they were unwilling to subject themselves to the personal abuse which has been rampant here for the last few years. Hopefully they will now register and we can benefit from their obvious wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:19 AM

"I think the reason these people did not register is that they were unwilling to subject themselves to the personal abuse which has been rampant here for the last few years. Hopefully they will now register and we can benefit from their obvious wisdom."

You have a point, Ake. However, some of the worst behaviour has come from logged-in members, and it remains to be seen if their behaviour will improve. At the moment things look **better** but will it last? Time will tell.

And it's good to see Eliza registered as a member - as someone who doesn't post a lot but who lurks and reads a very great deal, I regard her worth-while, and often sagely, opinions as being very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:31 AM

I'm glad the anonymous guest posting in this section has gone as well - not that I'm a great contributor to this section these days. When posters can actually refrain from coming up with the same, insulting parodic nicknames they use for posters they constantly argue with, it might get even better.

I'm a mod on another forum, and I've never had to use my moderator powers to censor, delete or edit any post, or had to caution or ban any member - ever. That's because the members, to a person, are polite and generous to each other. This other forum, by the way, is dedicated to the art and science of repairing mechanical watches, so there's a great deal of practical advice and help offered and given from oldies to newbies. Even the "Off-topic" section - the equivalent of our BS section here - is polite and helpful.

And the forum members also have musos as members1

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:14 AM

"However, I did notice that many of the offenders were actually members, so I can't see how the new rules will stop them. "

The new rules don't affect logged-in members at all, except in one way: the ethos of the place should be much improved now that it's free of anonymous cowardly snipers, and that should rub off. As I've said before, it was a bit like the Wild West. I'm optimistic, but if I'm wrong the place is just a basket case. We can only try.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:15 AM

I'm a member of another music-related forum, Will, and I'd pass similar comments about that forum - member-only posting, members behave with decorum, and are very generous with one another. That's not to say that they never criticise, they do, but in a reasonable and civil manner.

On the very rare occasions where members start to flare up and matters become vitriolic, Moderation is pretty much immediate, the Moderator identifies him/her self, and gives a warning and reasons for that warning. In other words, the Moderator behaves like an adult and treats the offenders like adults.

And it's a nice place to be as a result. Not something we can say about this place very often?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:21 AM

"The new rules don't affect logged-in members at all, except in one way: the ethos of the place should be much improved now that it's free of anonymous cowardly snipers, and that should rub off. As I've said before, it was a bit like the Wild West. I'm optimistic, but if I'm wrong the place is just a basket case. We can only try."

Yep, my sentiments exactly, Steve. We live in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:48 AM

As a retired teacher of mainly 8yr olds, I've been much struck by the behaviour of the rude, cruel and silly posters on Mudcat as being extremely similar to that of my pupils in the playground. One can try to ignore it, but eventually one has to intervene.

I imagine that, since everyone is now 'traceable' the Moderators can send a message privately to give a warning of some sort.

How kind of you Backwoodsman - and thank you for your generous comment.
I'm smiling, because I was advised there is another member called Eliza, and had to choose another username. Senoufou is the name of my husband's tribe. I'm a Senoufou toubabou! (a white Senoufou) but people here still call me Eliza, which is touching.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:52 AM

I suppose that there is one (legitimate?) reason for a member wishing to log out and post anon.
Sometimes threads here discuss personal problems and we might have an experience to share, but not under a mudcat name since we tend to know each other in real life too.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:24 AM

Have I been blind
Have I been lost
Have I been wrong
Have I been wise
Have I been strong
Have I been
Hypnotized
Mesmerized?

Of course
but knowing that
now you can choose.
Your experience is
the only honest thing
you can ever share and
they are not all
polite or fair.

EVEN THE snipers
and late bloomers
deserves time to mature


Natalie&Don

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 11:22 AM

well, there is a recent post here that members tend to know each other in real life. Me, I don't know a single one of you. The forum came to my attention because search engines like Google pull up song lyrics which are posted on forum threads, so I came here hunting for words to a song.

This thread is drawing a diverse variety of responses which is a healthy thing. My gratitude to those posters whose comments convey that, regardless of where they are at the moment, they have been where I am and they know where to find me. All the persuasive argument in the world is of little comfort to somebody who feels alone and lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 11:39 AM

I've only ever met two people from here, Raggytash (salt of the earth he is) and a member from Bude who doesn't post much, and never down below to my knowledge. And, apart from staving off moderators* on occasion, I think I've only ever bantered offlist with four or five people, none of them to any great extent. It's a funny, alternative sort of world.

*Not fair. They're actually quite nice to me in PMs!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 11:58 AM

I know several members personally, at least one of them being one that many others here complain bitterly about (he's a very nice, likeable guy in The Real World, a nice guitar-player and singer, and extremely dry and witty).

I've also revealed my true identity to several who I haven't met, but with whom I feel safe to 'open up'.

I don't care about true identities, I'm happy so simply 'know' someone as they present themselves here. All I need to know is that, when I'm interacting repeatedly with "x', it's 'x' I'm speaking and listening to every time.

Eliza - my pleasure! Just glad to have you around again. 👍😄

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:23 PM

I have a sort of scoring system, in which anything above 5 is a pass:

Logged in, real name, consistent: 10

Logged in, consistent pseudonym: 8

Logged in, changed name: 6

Not logged in by accident (lost cookie, immediate apology): 9.5

Not logged in by accident, as above but no apology, 5.01

Member but not logged in on purpose, real name used: 8

As above but with pseudonym: 5.00001

Non-member, real name, music only: 9

Non-member, pseudonym, music only: 5.01

Non-member, no pseudonym: 0

Multiple identities under any circumstances: 0

(Note that a moderator posting as "mudelf" who is bollocking someone, deleting posts, closing threads and having last words falls into that last category. Mudelfs doing useful things such as combining threads, making helpful corrections or deleting duplicate posts are exempted)

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:29 PM

Keeping score does no harm.
Neither does it help.
Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:13 PM

My tongue was firmly in my cheek. And I do cheek!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:08 PM

keberoxu, while it is true that some of us know each other in real life, this is a site with a lot of members, and most of us have not met one another in real life, much less know each other well.

I have met many people who used to post regularly on Mudcat from my side of the pond (USA) via the FSGW Getaway. In fact, I joined Mudcat only after a close friend who was already a Mudcatter persuaded me to attend a Getaway, and met some of the folks there, which then lead to me joining Mudcat.

Having said that, there was a time when a majority of people on Mudcat experienced it, and therefore treated it, as a real community, albeit a virtual one. There was no divide between how they behaved in 3-D and how they behaved on-line. Even then, there were people who I had met in 3-D who were very likable and behaved very well in 3-D who had very different on-line personas, and did not regard the forum on Mudcat as a 'real' social community.

As the internet and social media evolved, it was inevitable that this place would also. Those whose perspective is that Mudcat is simply an internet forum and not a real community eventually prevailed. Some folks still come back to the BS section and read certain threads, but very rarely, if ever, post. I know this because of occasional pm's or phone calls I get from Mudcatters who haven't posted in a very long time, or who will post on the increasing occasions when a long time member dies and an Obit thread is started. Also from conversations at the annual Getaway when I may see people who haven't posted on Mudcat for a very long time.

I'm not a big "behind the scenes" communicator and don't mean that I am busy on the phone or that my pm exchanges are frequent. Two of the best communicators, both on the threads and in terms of reaching out via phone calls or pm's just to chat are gone now. Katlaughing and Catspaw.

I never met either of them in 3-D, but both would call me and others fairly often, just to chat or talk about shared personal concerns or life experiences that usually had little to do with whatever was going on in the forum. I never thought it possible, because of distance, that Kat and I would ever meet face-to-face, but 'Spaw and I had made tentative plans to really meet in 3D within a few months of when he died. Both of them did have visits over the years from a number of Mudcatters who were traveling through their locales.

Given that there are only remnants of a virtual community below the line, and the BS section is now dominated by debate, and has become predominantly just another internet forum, I completely understand Max's decision.

Nothing is static. All things change, including Mudcat. More and more it is evolving toward the more exclusive use it for which it was originally intended. A music resource.

I think, but do not know, that Mudcat was one of the earliest of social media forums/communities. Some sociologist or anthropologist may one day find this long-lasting site rich material to mine re evolution of social media - because I'm pretty sure that except for some stuff lost during a couple of spectacular crashes Max designed the site such that everything posted from inception is archived and accessible to a researcher.

I live in an area of the south of small communities and participate in several facebook groups with local focus. There are always those who are acrimonious about the changes that have occurred over time in their communities. It is possible to miss the past but to accept the present and to anticipate the future. Eventually, most communities dissipate. Sometime new communities arise, and some of those from the old community will be left standing in the dust.

I think there is a new community arising below the line on Mudcat. Not one where I am welcomed or comfortable, but that isn't out of malice on the part of those who are forming that new community. They just have different values and mores than do I, and distinguish between virtual interaction and 3-D interaction.

Some have commented this is a cultural difference between the UK and North America, but I don't buy that. At least not below the line. As many of the 'old guard' from the UK no longer post as from North America.

The exclusion of guest postings is a new twist but is consistent with the direction the forum has been going for quite some time.

I can't tell you where you are, keberoxu, but from what you posted, where ever you are appears to be centered and self-aware. Don't mistake this forum for your family of origin but kudos for recognizing the ways in which it may resemble your family of origin.

Whether on-line or 3D, humans act like humans, eh?

All the best to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 07:01 PM

Well, Janie, I buy nearly all that. Nearly. I'm not sure that you know that the people you see as forming a new community (not a word I enjoy using apropos of internet matters, but hey ho) have such different values. Speaking for myself, I'm acutely aware that I am associated most with that fringe group of mostly Brits who possess the knack of getting up people's noses. I wouldn't have it any other way, either, though at that point I should like to dissociate myself vehemently from two or three of them who I see as bigots (not now). But, on the whole, my values are strongly defined and are not at odds with most decent people who post here, which means nearly everybody. And that includes some of the most abrasive and sweary people here. They may not have the tactics but they are almost invariably on the right side of things, if you can just see through the insults and the bluster. OK, babies and bath water, but be careful that you're not the one pulling the plug. I'm not trying to defend the indefensible here (I don't hold back in criticising Musket for his multiple identities, for example, and I don't like the worst kinds of sweariness, and I've said so. I've tried to stop calling people names even!), but if it's a community you desire then all I can say is that it takes all sorts, and the strength of any community is defined by how well it can embrace the diversity within it. Trying to achieve a community that you've pre-defined on very narrow, cosy lines won't work when the topics up for debate are as wide-ranging as they are here. Fine if it's a forum dedicated to just knitting or pussycats.

One other thing. This discussion forum is very old-fashioned now (I'm not complaining, by the way). You can't post photos and you can't edit your posts, and it can be grindingly slow at times, it's hard to post links compared to most other forums, and there's a lot of competition from the cut-and-thrust, all-singing, all-dancing social media sites (I hate them and have nothing to do with them). Most other forums of this sort are in decline. Two music forums I'm on are virtually dead and two others are going downhill fast. To some extent, this one almost bucks the trend. But if we fall out over religion/abortion/Israel, let it ride. Bad threads generally burn out fast, and so what if they degenerate into an interminable squabble between two idiots. Leave 'em be. The new Guest-free ethos here will dictate that they will be ignored by almost everybody, and the protagonists will end up looking like fools. All communities contain fools. Best let them make fools of themselves rather than try to do the job for them, I reckon!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 07:55 PM

I'd also like to point out that there was a good deal of bad blood on this forum many years before the likes of me joined in. Someone recently reproduced Max's post from around fifteen years ago which pleaded for civility. There's never really been a golden age below the line, has there? Plus ça change, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:19 PM

Hi Steve. I'm not trying to sell anything, so nothing to buy or not buy.

I think most people share many common values, including the diverse group of people who belong to Mudcat.

I enjoy and learn from your posts to threads regarding birding, plants, and the natural world.

Beyond that, it is clear that somehow we talk past each other. I'm not a debater. I understand you value getting up peoples noses. I don't. We are just different in that respect. Not to say I don't value the role of the gadfly. But a community or forum that is dominated by the gadflies is not a community in which I want to spend much time or energy.

You may be correct that there is not a different community forming on Mudcat. I really don't know. From the perspective of my training and work, however, I think you are naive to think that internet forums do not possess attributes of social community.

I also think you are way too modest in seeing yourself and other cohorts as fringe elements on the current Mudcat forum, irrespective of whether you think internet forums do not have characteristics of a social community.

I often enjoy your observations on the increasingly rare threads that relate to nature - birds, gardening, seasons, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:21 PM

Me? Redundant? :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:42 PM

Hello? I value being able to express my views in a measured way. You seem to be implying that my priority is to get up people's noses. Not at all. That is a side-effect, and it's a function of the fact that my views are left-wing, atheistic and liberal, which don't chime well with a good number of people's here, mainly Americans. I can't help that. I'm an honest broker who's been here a long time who says what he thinks under his real full name, and you may also note that my longer posts are carefully constructed and painstakingly edited (whether you like them or not), hardly the work of a gadfly. You should be careful to have good reasons for denigrating people, and merely disagreeing may not in itself be sufficient. There is a definite pejorative tone in one of your paragraphs above. I've tried to explain why I think you're out of order, but I'll confine my retaliation to saying that you need to ditch your underlying bitterness. I'm a big, cuddly bunny in real life, and I'm not joking. I never see people here in two dimensions, not Joe, not Teribus, not Keith. They all have their complicated sides that I don't understand and there are good reasons for the way they are that I also don't understand. Me too. And you. In a real community, you don't talk past people. You try to find out what makes them tick. You've kept me up rather late. And so to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 09:17 PM

No, Steve, wasn't implying anything. Perhaps I misunderstood your statement re getting up people's noses and not wishing to have it any other way. Regardless, I am not pointing fingers. Just trying to communicate, and apparently not very effectively.

My Alma Mater, UNC, is at half-time in the semi-final game for the National collegiate basketball championship - so a little distracted. We are ahead so far - Go Tarheels!

I note your post re previous bad blood. Free speech is always wild and woolly, and it would be a mistake for anyone to think that there was ever a time of Peace, Love, Respect for Everyone on Mudcat.

Also a mistake to think that the changes on the Mudcat forum and people moving away can be entirely, or even mostly attributed to "the usual suspects". Funny thing, that "usual suspects" term. When people use it, they assume all are in agreement as to who the 'usual suspects' may be, but I doubt that is the case.

But "the usual suspects" whoever one may include in that group, are made scapegoats to a certain extent. Fact is, dynamic communities change. People move in and move out, life circumstances change, interests change, friendships solidify and develop more outlets for expression than the venue where folks first connected, we get older, or the excitement becomes habituated = familiarity may breed not necessarily breed contempt, but may lead to not stimulating so many creative juices with familiarity.

I miss the neighborhood where I grew up and I miss the Mudcat of 10 years ago. But I can't say that if the Mudcat of 10 years ago was the Mudcat of today, that at this time in my life it would stimulate my own creative juices or amuse me as it did then.

I may experience some nostalgia for times in the past, not only on Mudcat but in 3D, and that is ok. May we all remember sweet memories more than sour memories. But I also know that going backwards rarely is very satisfying.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 09:40 PM

What is surprising is that so many folks from different countries, continents, cultures, life, family and community experiences, with diverse professions, genders and ages can get together and discuss a wide range of (and, at times, potentially divisive) topics in a "mostly" civil manner- to share perspectives and learn from each other.

What is also surprising is how some folks get so "worked up" when they learn that such a diverse group of strangers ,from all over, merely see things differently than they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 10:30 PM

Sorry for the thread drift, keberoxu.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 05:02 AM

The thread drift served a purpose. We were beginning to not talk past each other!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

Not a drift at all from wherever I am at the moment.

Funny how people can casually say "Oh GROW UP" but when you actually do some growing up, you recall the phrase "growing pains."

Many thanks, one and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 01:05 PM

I saw what you did on that other thread, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:35 AM

I guess I'm confused, keberoxu.

Gnu has not posted in this thread, so far at least.

And "that other thread", not specified, doesn't help
either.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:23 AM

"Where aboust you at?" gnu asked me, on the What's The Weather Like thread. I had second thoughts after I replied, thinking, Now gnu can pounce on me on the "where am I" thread. Does gnus pounce?

(I must be feeling better now)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:33 PM

Gnu is Gnu. I've seen worse. That's what it's like around here. He's been prowling around me for years, not realising what a cuddly bunny I am (ask Raggytash - he'll tell you!) I'm a prophet without honour, etc. (if you believe that you'll believe anything). You're a star, so take no notice of the begrudgers!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Andrez
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:02 AM

Hi folks, thanks for giving and sharing of yourselves in this thread. I wasnt aware of the new 'policy' but if the civil discussion here is any indication of change then thats just fantastic! Here's hoping that the BS will lessen and we will see more real talking and intelligent discussion of events, issues, ideas and various states of being in threads below the line.

I like to hear different points of view regardless of whether they coincide with my own beliefs and values and will happily engage around these but I simply have no time for mindless dogma and ideological rigidity in thinking nor the abuse and rants seen in the BS threads in the past and so mostly skim thru or simply stay away from the forum for longish periods.

For me its all about the quality of discussion and learning about each other, our commonalities and who we are as people who contribute to the Mudcat community wherever we are located around this planet (Australia in my case).

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 05:59 PM

Ah, someone saying "Maybe it's safe to come out in the open now"....

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

It's safer, but not safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:13 PM

Hi Steve, does this mean we'll be able to talk about evolution and the nature of science without you resorting to comments about slime trails?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:21 PM

We may be able to. But in science nothing is certain... 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 03:02 AM

A bit like religion, eh? 😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 07:45 AM

We may be able to. But in science nothing is certain...

Progress already.