BS: Triage, or 'where am I'

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 05:08 PM

...you mean, very trying ?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 04:51 PM

Some of us are actually trying

Very!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:32 PM

Just posted, quoting another thread, and a post from Wysiwyg. I don't know Wysiwyg but I don't believe she is in the military; sounds as though she is a pastor's spouse. So her point of reference must be the helping professions in general, and the ministry in particular; it is she I was quoting when I chose the word "triage."

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: mg
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:16 PM

I am not sure what you mean by triage. To me it has a military meaning which is very dismal and has four groupings, not three.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Just did some forum research on what's new with Wysiwyg, until this moment I had not realized -- being rather new here -- how much upheaval and crisis there has recently been in her life.

No wonder her participation here is limited at the moment. Sending her positive thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:51 PM

Speak kindly to Snail, frogprince. Some of us are actually trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:49 PM

My first post mentioned Wysiwyg and a post of theirs from a thread sometime back. My conscience is nagging me to quote that post on this thread, so anyone can see why I put the word "triage" in the thread title.   The date was 4 Oct 2008.

[quote]
The secret of surviving in the ministry -- to always keep yourself healthy enough to remain a step ahead of the crowd so you can help them when they need it...because one of our favorite sayings is, "They know who to call." But another one is, "They prefer the hope to the reality." Eventually, as we get older, if we survive, we learn to take both the hope AND the reality.

A case in point. I have twice now offered some seriously-reality-based thoughts to an individual I am thinking of today, who prefers not to listen at the moment. That tells me that this individual is not yet at the place where their own "smarts" have gotten them into enough trouble that they can tell the difference between their hopes and a real, solid upward path. And that's fine -- because the day that person realizes that they need to listen up, they will recall what I said and/or my phone will ring. Till then I have my hands full of the last one who needed to call. And so it goes, around and around. (And of course sometimes I'm the one calling others when my "smarts" wear thin.)

Several times a year I get e-mails, calls, or in-person indications that whatever I said years ago finally kicked in, and usually an apology for not listening. The acknowledgement is nice because it updates me on what their next level of of help/need may be, but the apologetic mindset helps them, not me; after I hear them process their thoughts about this, I just tell them to pay out that line, that kind of slack, to someone else when they get the chance. My mom taught me this pattern: we laugh and laugh when I call to tell her what lesson from her parenting kicked in "yesterday."

Community. It has its own triage built in, because not everybody can listen and accept at the same time. Good thing, too, or we'd all be overwhelmed and panicked at the same time!
[endquote]

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:36 PM

Just a thought, guys:
This thread started with Keberoxu sharing some very personal feelings; that led to a period of very gentle and thoughtful exchange. I won't say that the thread is a total loss yet, but we've somehow got back to a go-round, much as in, what, a year or more ago, about the exact terminology that's appropriate for expressing the understanding that there is very solid evidence for the reality of evolution. Can some of the parties here see themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 05:35 PM

A couple of years ago I might have said that about Snailie, Greg. But now that I'm the new, milder me, I just sympathise with his rather sorry lack of warmth. Maybe he'll grow out of it, just like you and me!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM

How's about what makes people pricks there?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 01:49 PM

Not much probing or trying to find out what makes other people tick there.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 12:18 PM

No I don't! And not "things," just evolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 08:34 AM

Steve Shaw
But I'm probing all the time and trying to find out what makes other people tick

Not in my experience you aren't. You state things to be categorically true then hurl insults at anyone who dares to question you.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 02:59 PM

growing up is hard to do sometimes. Had another sleepless night of it. Good to wake up and find you all here. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 06:18 PM

Mudcat has been offline Keberoxu, seems to be working again.

I thought perhaps someone had self detonated in admin, but all is well. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 11:47 AM

As to where am i, for one day I was on the outside and could not even look in. Whenever I logged into a public computer (the only kind I have access to) it refused to bring up Mudcat even with the URL in place. Now the computer brings it up as though nothing had happened.
Um, nothing else to report.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 04:24 PM

Steve won't care he and I use to always argue and pick on each other, but he knows he is my buddy.. Pick away

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 03:44 PM

That's kind of you, Steve, not directed at you or at one individual though. In the end, my fear is that I will start mouthing off and saying something I wish I could take back.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:09 PM

Was that directed at me? As a matter of interest, I find that you're very listenable to!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 12:27 PM

Why do we have to be prophets, with or without honor? Look, if you have a prophet's vocation, I will leave you to it. I don't find it easy to listen, as stated earlier, but I have also learned the hard way that if I do not listen, I am likely not to be listened to.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 05:22 PM

What you may see as fixed positions being stated along with hands clasped over ears may not be quite as clear-cut as you think. It could be that you are, in a way, doing the same thing yourself by not looking a little deeper. I admit freely to having a settled position on God and religion. Not so much so on politics, a moveable feast if ever there was one, and history, on which my knowledge is shaky. I'm way too slow on the uptake face-to-face in argument, but I'm in my element here because I can express myself in a measured manner and revise my posts before sending, which can be hours after someone or other has got my gander up. But I'm probing all the time and trying to find out what makes other people tick (in one or two cases, it pushes patience to the limit). There's more to everything here than meets the eye. Sticking around here is seriously nerdish, but it's intriguing nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 02:06 PM

Thankfully there are several "Breeze Shooting" threads where members are thoroughly enjoying their ongoing disagreements, and I can stay out of their way and let them do so without me.

It's just that too often, any "ongoing disagreement" reminds me of the old pattern of fixed [I said "decided"] positions being repeated and nobody listening. Said another way:
there is "listening to," and there is "listening for." I am certain Wysiwyg is well acquainted with the distinction, judging from her posts.
It is very convenient and expedient to "listen for." There, one listens for words from others as a cue to launch into one's fixed statements, and to repeat them emphatically.
"Listening to" can be a real inconvenience because one cannot "listen to" without making oneself receptive. In my experience, receptivity is NOT passive, however quiet it appears: I find it is really hard work to accept and receive from a place of tranquillity. For me, to let somebody else in, to allow them time and space, to pay attention to them and to stay vigilant and alert to what they communicate, and to stay tranquil and calm, takes concentrated, sustained effort and it is a lot more difficult than it looks.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:49 AM

I was fervently hoping that you wouldn't reopen the debate but I felt the need to be fearless in putting our exchanges in this thread on an honest footing. 😉

Suffice to say that my declaration of truth in the matter to hand was not intended to be made in a scientific context. I regard it as a truth irrespective and independent of science, an irrefutable natural phenomenon. Now had I said that the theory was true, or any aspect of it, you could justifiably have had me on the ropes. Theories try to get us closer to the truth, but at the end of the day they're just our attempts to explain nature.

OMG, "only a theory..." Aargh! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:46 AM

In the bad old days, when I worked for a living, I never gave anyone a maximum score in appraisals - even someone who was excellent in every way 'only' got, e.g. 4/5 or 'very good' rather than 'excellent'.

My boss for seventeen years, a man I held in very high regard, always said that you should never give full marks, no matter how good someone is because, by giving the top mark, you remove the employee's motivation to try even harder, and that everyone, no matter how good they might be at their job, is capable of doing 'better'.

Makes sense to me - obviously! 👍

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:31 AM

I quite agree, Janie. Declarations of Truth make me uncomfortable, especially in a scientific context. Finding that when you challenge such statements you just find them repeated over and over again without further justification doesn't help.

Steve Shaw
Of course, there is one area of human thought that routinely misuses the word, We call it religion.

Just so.

I'm not sure that I've got the energy to reopen that debate. If I have, I'll start a new thread. My main intention was to draw attention to the new softer, kinder, gentler Steve Shaw compared with the one I'm used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:46 AM

We had a history teacher at school who never gave anyone more than 8 out of 10 for a piece of work, no matter how good. It made a mockery of the ten-point scale. Likewise in language, having words we're wary of using is a shame. I like "true" and use it a lot. Anyway, I know what's underlying this, of course, so let me say without fear or favour that evolution is real. It's a true phenomenon! We also have a theory for it which is very good at trying to get closer to the truths therein. That's what science is all about, trying to look for what is really true. Of course, there is one area of human thought that routinely misuses the word, We call it religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 11:35 PM

Always a little wary when I or anyone thinks we know what is 'true.'

Loaded words, 'true' and 'truth.'

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 07:28 PM

But in science nothing is certain..

What's true is true.

Still work to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:42 PM

Most of the time I forget where I am

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:37 PM

"Progress already."

I wouldn't bank on it. What's true is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:06 PM

Glad you're here.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 10:23 AM

Here there and everywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 07:45 AM

We may be able to. But in science nothing is certain...

Progress already.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 03:02 AM

A bit like religion, eh? 😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:21 PM

We may be able to. But in science nothing is certain... 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:13 PM

Hi Steve, does this mean we'll be able to talk about evolution and the nature of science without you resorting to comments about slime trails?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

It's safer, but not safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 05:59 PM

Ah, someone saying "Maybe it's safe to come out in the open now"....

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Andrez
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:02 AM

Hi folks, thanks for giving and sharing of yourselves in this thread. I wasnt aware of the new 'policy' but if the civil discussion here is any indication of change then thats just fantastic! Here's hoping that the BS will lessen and we will see more real talking and intelligent discussion of events, issues, ideas and various states of being in threads below the line.

I like to hear different points of view regardless of whether they coincide with my own beliefs and values and will happily engage around these but I simply have no time for mindless dogma and ideological rigidity in thinking nor the abuse and rants seen in the BS threads in the past and so mostly skim thru or simply stay away from the forum for longish periods.

For me its all about the quality of discussion and learning about each other, our commonalities and who we are as people who contribute to the Mudcat community wherever we are located around this planet (Australia in my case).

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:33 PM

Gnu is Gnu. I've seen worse. That's what it's like around here. He's been prowling around me for years, not realising what a cuddly bunny I am (ask Raggytash - he'll tell you!) I'm a prophet without honour, etc. (if you believe that you'll believe anything). You're a star, so take no notice of the begrudgers!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:23 AM

"Where aboust you at?" gnu asked me, on the What's The Weather Like thread. I had second thoughts after I replied, thinking, Now gnu can pounce on me on the "where am I" thread. Does gnus pounce?

(I must be feeling better now)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:35 AM

I guess I'm confused, keberoxu.

Gnu has not posted in this thread, so far at least.

And "that other thread", not specified, doesn't help
either.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 01:05 PM

I saw what you did on that other thread, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

Not a drift at all from wherever I am at the moment.

Funny how people can casually say "Oh GROW UP" but when you actually do some growing up, you recall the phrase "growing pains."

Many thanks, one and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 05:02 AM

The thread drift served a purpose. We were beginning to not talk past each other!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 10:30 PM

Sorry for the thread drift, keberoxu.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 09:40 PM

What is surprising is that so many folks from different countries, continents, cultures, life, family and community experiences, with diverse professions, genders and ages can get together and discuss a wide range of (and, at times, potentially divisive) topics in a "mostly" civil manner- to share perspectives and learn from each other.

What is also surprising is how some folks get so "worked up" when they learn that such a diverse group of strangers ,from all over, merely see things differently than they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 09:17 PM

No, Steve, wasn't implying anything. Perhaps I misunderstood your statement re getting up people's noses and not wishing to have it any other way. Regardless, I am not pointing fingers. Just trying to communicate, and apparently not very effectively.

My Alma Mater, UNC, is at half-time in the semi-final game for the National collegiate basketball championship - so a little distracted. We are ahead so far - Go Tarheels!

I note your post re previous bad blood. Free speech is always wild and woolly, and it would be a mistake for anyone to think that there was ever a time of Peace, Love, Respect for Everyone on Mudcat.

Also a mistake to think that the changes on the Mudcat forum and people moving away can be entirely, or even mostly attributed to "the usual suspects". Funny thing, that "usual suspects" term. When people use it, they assume all are in agreement as to who the 'usual suspects' may be, but I doubt that is the case.

But "the usual suspects" whoever one may include in that group, are made scapegoats to a certain extent. Fact is, dynamic communities change. People move in and move out, life circumstances change, interests change, friendships solidify and develop more outlets for expression than the venue where folks first connected, we get older, or the excitement becomes habituated = familiarity may breed not necessarily breed contempt, but may lead to not stimulating so many creative juices with familiarity.

I miss the neighborhood where I grew up and I miss the Mudcat of 10 years ago. But I can't say that if the Mudcat of 10 years ago was the Mudcat of today, that at this time in my life it would stimulate my own creative juices or amuse me as it did then.

I may experience some nostalgia for times in the past, not only on Mudcat but in 3D, and that is ok. May we all remember sweet memories more than sour memories. But I also know that going backwards rarely is very satisfying.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:42 PM

Hello? I value being able to express my views in a measured way. You seem to be implying that my priority is to get up people's noses. Not at all. That is a side-effect, and it's a function of the fact that my views are left-wing, atheistic and liberal, which don't chime well with a good number of people's here, mainly Americans. I can't help that. I'm an honest broker who's been here a long time who says what he thinks under his real full name, and you may also note that my longer posts are carefully constructed and painstakingly edited (whether you like them or not), hardly the work of a gadfly. You should be careful to have good reasons for denigrating people, and merely disagreeing may not in itself be sufficient. There is a definite pejorative tone in one of your paragraphs above. I've tried to explain why I think you're out of order, but I'll confine my retaliation to saying that you need to ditch your underlying bitterness. I'm a big, cuddly bunny in real life, and I'm not joking. I never see people here in two dimensions, not Joe, not Teribus, not Keith. They all have their complicated sides that I don't understand and there are good reasons for the way they are that I also don't understand. Me too. And you. In a real community, you don't talk past people. You try to find out what makes them tick. You've kept me up rather late. And so to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:21 PM

Me? Redundant? :>)