BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?

Subject: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:18 PM

Obama, and it seems Clinton. both think we should vote to stay in the undemocratic, inefficient and incompetent European Union. What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:19 PM

It's up to you folks, but the UK isn't a democracy any more than the US or the EU is.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:35 PM

Correct. And there's nothing more undemocratic than the scaremongering debate that we're enduring. Most people who vote on this incredibly vital issue in June will be voting from a position of pig-ignorance. You might call that democracy. I don't. In comparison, the EU is a paragon.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 02:33 AM

I don't buy cockamamie opinions from anyone, I have a brain, I form my own opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: BobL
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:11 AM

It's the arguments being put forward for leaving that tempt me to vote "Stay".
And vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:15 AM

What happened to the "special relationship" we were supposed to have when we were required to join in foreign war debacles?

Mr Obama now says that he is more interested in promoting the idiotic and dangerous EU than giving his special friends (the UK)a new trade deal.
Get to the back of the queue for ten years you bastards!!

What blinding hypocrisy. The US would never cede sovereignty to any political union, or allow UNREGULATED immigration from any quarter.

This concerted effort to frighten and bully the British people from global business interests, should be fiercely resisted.

Everybody out!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:32 AM

Do you buy the Brexit bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:03 AM

'The US would never cede sovereignty to any political union, or allow UNREGULATED immigration from any quarter'


Totally agree, akenaton.

I think Obama has a blooming cheek. Imagine the Americans calmly accepting our pompous 'advice' on any of their major political decisions!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:12 AM

Sorry, ake, but that doesn't follow. Obama (and Hilary) are saying which UK vote is most suited to US interests. And understandably so: it is their job to do that. So the hypocrisy charge doesn't arise, since they are not claiming that they would say the same with respect to their own borders.

And Obama was quite right in the 'back of the queue' remark. It is not just the US as a government: every individual business wants to make investments and growth plans which give the maximum return for the lowest cost and effort and, generally speaking, a few big deals are more effective than lots of little deals. So big businesses will do exactly the same, whether US based or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:34 AM

My ❤ sez 'OUT' (never wanted to join in 1st place, & veted against in that thoroughly dishonest '75 referendum when they assured us on stax of bibles that we were voting on a purely economic q

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:53 AM

My ❤ sez 'OUT'

(never wanted to join in 1st place, & voted against in that thoroughly dishonest '75 referendum when they assured us on stacks of bibles that we were voting on a purely economic question with no political implications whatever, the lying heaps of pigshit! instead of recognising that the one thing the Grenouilles & the Krautz agree on is hatred of us -- & as I never tire of saying: just coz I'm paranoid doesn't men they are not out to GET me)

while my 〠 sez 'STAY'

if only becoz it's where we happen to be, & 4-score·+-years' experience tend me to believe that, as whoever it was said, all change tends to be for the worse...

&, purely selfishly, I'm unlikely at my time of life to be left holding the resultant baby for much longer anyhow...

So put me down as

fence·sitting·outcopping·pusillanimous·FLOATING·VOTER·or·even·potential·abstainer
if that's OK

or even if it isn't...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 05:45 AM

My brain says "Calm down dear, its only a neverendum"

And my funny bone says that Matt got it right

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:08 AM

Ah-ha, gasp!gasp! but didn't my late sort·of·cousin & Cambridge friend, M Winner, ever add a phrase to the language!...

Calm down dear...............

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:21 AM

Mr Red...

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None of which I am willing to do.

As far as "trade agreements" go, screw that. Here in the Great White Frozen, we have the NAFTA and are "thinking about" the CETA and the TPP. All relinquish sovereignty through ISDS clauses and are thereby treasonous. Canada is the most sued country in the world under "trade agreements" (read NAFTA) and the girls I goes wit' don't like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:59 AM

People who want the UK out of the EU want the British government (you know, the people who signed the TATP, allow unchallenged extradition to the US, have been keeping Asssnge locked up in internal exile for years, act as an entrepot for the CIA's torture industry and routinely send refugees back "home" to certain death) to be the sole arbiter of human rights.

There may well be people in Essex who that prospect appeals to, but Scotland would certainly vote to stay in if the referendum was conducted on a national basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:52 AM

Methinx we are beginning to see the usual syndrome proleptically in operation:

♫♫Oh we all luv Democracy
Democracy
Democracy
Oh we all luv Democracy
The best thing there is

Just so long as the δεμος votes
The way we think it ought♫♫

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: meself
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 01:31 PM

Did Boris actually dismiss Obama as 'half-Kenyan', or did I just imagine that?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 01:35 PM

Dead right M!!

It isn't about bloody Assange.......There are lots of things I don't like about the Westminster govt......but the EU I dislike even more.
"Free Movement of Labour" will finish us, wreck our infrastructure and leave our young people without training or purpose.

I vote SNP for independence.....and I want real independence, not to be ruled by an undemocratic cartel.
The SNP are wrong on this issue, but I will still support them in the hope of future independence.

Obama is usually very cautious about interfering in UK affairs (other than the Scottish Independence referendum)......so I reckon US interests must be badly affected if the UK withdraw and the European Project collapses.......its all about global power and economics.

President Obama and Mrs Clinton should hang their heads in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:25 PM

The self-aggrandisement of reference to the "demos" in Greek lettering is unhelpful.

BobL puts his finger on another part of the problem.

Akenaton demonstrates, as usual, ignorance and prejudice. The USA is a federation of individual states that accept to a very large extent the sovereignty of the federal government over state rights, whatever Cliven Bundy (or should I say Cloven Bundy, snigger?) may think, and of course all US citizens are entitled to migrate freely among those individual states. Also we desperately need EU and other immigrants to staff the NHS.

There is much in what gnu and Jack Campin say. It seems to me that the arguments hinge on two big issues. First, the TUC and others are quite right that given the present UK government, the EU is a valuable bastion of equality and workers's rights. I find that more important than the arguments of accountants and Ferengi about whether Brexit or Bremain is more profitable. On the other hand TTIP is very dangerous. It is much wiser for capitalism to be under the control of democratic governments than vice versa, and TTIP and Art 106 TFEU are both very dangerous to the prospect of renationalisation (which I would wholly support) if we can get rid of the con-servatives (by any means necessary please).

So since, alas, the UK electorate is so stupid gullible and misled that we are unlikely soon the get shot of the bloody con-servatives who would go on bended knee to subject us to US capitalism, Bremaining is the wiser choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:20 PM

gnu
That Farcebook link asked if I was being too political.
funny bone images on mister.red ie not on Farcebook this time. I think they translate well into Canadian &/or Americana.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 02:28 AM

To all "soft left" UK Mudcatters.

Mr Corbyn has steadfastly opposed the EU and all its works for the whole of his political life. He is forced to support it now, to hold together a party filled with pirates and self motivated "Blairites".

If Mr Corbyn led a socialist party in any form he would be strongly opposed to our continued contribution to this dangerous gravy train.

Surprised to see "real socialists" like "Sir Richard" lining up with the 1%.

There are moves afoot to allow membership for Albania and Turkey.....millions more with the right to move to the UK....The turkeys are already here, and they are all voting "In"

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 03:52 AM

I agree with Richard in many ways. The EU has always been two projects: an essentially economic one (which is what Corbyn opposed, by the way) and a social one concerned with things like maximum working times, human rights and such forth (and I don't recall Corbyn opposing those)

The Tories tend to call all of the social side red tape, burdens on businesses and all of the rest, which is why the Tory remain camp never mentions those and why Labour remainers can't fully co-operate with many other remain supporters.

The biggest hurdle I have to voting remain - which I will almost certainly do - is the knowledge of how the EU responded to Greece's democratic decision. Certainly Greece could not continue as it was but stripping it of every asset that could help the country long term is not a real solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 05:57 AM

I think both sides of the debate need to put forward more positive arguments for their case rather than attacking the others views. We seem to have become a society that is voting against the biggest bogey man rather than voting for what we believe is best. The title of this thread is a prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM

"The self-aggrandisement of reference to the "demos" in Greek lettering is unhelpful."
.,,.

To quote the great Dr Johnson, Bridgy, in response to some nonentity's denigration of a work he had praised:

"Sir, you may be sure 'twas writ with little thought of pleasing you."

Regards
≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 08:28 AM

But unless it was simply a wank, Myer, it must have been intended to influence or please somebody other than your very smug and self-satisfied self.

I would also point out that "it is better for workers's rights and equality" is a positive case.

However IMHO expansion to include the recently joined members was a mistake, and allowing Albania and Turkey would be a bigger one. The EU depends on some similarities between member states. I am baffled by the thought that Turkey might be persuaded to acknowledge the political rights and freedoms that the core EU states enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 09:41 AM

Bridge --

This standard-form reply, held in my word-processor memory, is the only response I propose to make to your recent post:—

It is my principle to make no further answer than this to merely abusive posts addressed to me, as I take your last one to be..

No further correspondence will be entered into.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 03:39 PM

The organized business interests have an old ambition that has been called the New world Order. It is a system that insures underclass wage slave markets to an Empire without the interference of stragglers, juntas, and outsider megalomaniac regimes.

You do know that remainiac is a loaded word?
Lets look at the big picture and nor just Greece.

With the US ironically screwing up the Middle East democracy and China financially colonizing Africa , the plans for the World Bank and new World Order are in disorder.

In a nuclear world, blind Nationalism is a clear and present danger. but so is a centralized New World Order that may pay more attention to widget production than runaway global warming. Who can say foe sure?

Simply put the new world order does not have a chance as long as continual conventional wars remain highly profitable and exceedingly volatile, capable of going out of control.

The idea that our current power structures of BRIC will be factored down into one order is absurd. China is wiling to play our game but only with their rules. Think of a Risk game; financially speaking China now has over half of Asia and most of Africa, The Panama Canal and Walmart.

If I were a Brit I would not automatically follow the American Wall Street or EU but instead wait and see if China has a better trade deal. They seem to be most exploitative of labor in the world.

Or you can sacrifice to maintain free trade and livable wages.

Like that will ever happen.





In the end the threats of the big banks will carry the day and the decisions will be made by billionaires.

As usual the incisive will be left behind while the decisive will win this cinder EARTH.


In the end the vultures get the goods. However...if vultures taste good, you know what we have to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 08:09 PM

A tribute to Dave Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you buy the Remainiac mantra?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:09 AM

It is indeed a positive case, Richard, but I was thinking more of the people getting better media attention than those on Mudcat :-)