BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 16 - 01:16 PM

I thought a pooter was a gizmo for sucking up spiders

And then of course, there's your COM-Pooter.....

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: robomatic
Date: 20 May 16 - 01:07 PM

China has a history of catastrophic death due to civil war. Check out the Taiping Rebellion.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:04 PM

I thought a pooter was a gizmo for sucking up spiders without getting them in your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Ed T
Date: 19 May 16 - 02:48 PM

Bear sense 

well, now that the Mao(naise) thing has been certified true, maybe we could discuss this topic?

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 16 - 12:11 PM

the issue is whether,Mao was a mass murderer,

There isn't, and there wasn't an issue. What there is, is a fact.

See 18 May 16 - 08:21 AM

As was Andy Jackson a mass murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:59 AM

My case rests.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 16 - 11:55 AM

the issue is whether,Mao was a mass murderer,the issue is not cutting and pasting and using italics. Pooters of this world take note

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Lighter
Date: 19 May 16 - 07:24 AM

The issue is accurate quotation.

One can't just make up stuff that somebody might have said if he'd thought of saying it.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 May 16 - 05:19 PM

Does seem a non argument, charmion, and the arguments seem to be peripheral, the current being, was he a true communist. The fact is , I believe, that is how he self identified. Of course, this line of reasoning is applicable to other belief systems , and hopefully we can see that when someone does anything that is contrary to the beliefs they claim to follow , they are being inconsistent with whatever it is they self identify with.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 16 - 05:09 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Lighter - PM
Date: 18 May 16 - 07:38 AM

>"The Communist party must control the guns."   This appears to be a reconstruction of "Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party."

Thanks, Rap. I've been doing this for fifty years. And yes, it can be annoying.

This is the quote I suspected of being bogus. And it turns out it is.

Mao's actual words are about military power, not individual gun ownership. (There's a big difference between "the gun" and "the guns.")

The "reconstruction" (i.e., distortion), easy to find on right-wing sites, implies that he was talking about what he'd do to the Second Amendment after the Commie/liberal takeover of the U.S.

Undoubtedly he would have done it. But the distorted version is misleading about what he meant and when he meant it.

I doubt Mao spent much time plotting against the Second Amendment.

A perfect ex. of why we need to see the sources of controversial statements."
quote lighter.
controversial statement or not, it happens that this american conservative is right that Mao was a mass killer. much less important but typical of mudcat is the quote
(There's a big difference between "the gun" and "the guns.")
can you not see the wood from the trees.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Charmion
Date: 18 May 16 - 08:21 AM

"Chairman Mao mass murder is it true"

Of course it's true. Queen Anne is dead, and the sun rises in the east.

Try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 16 - 07:39 AM

I could make some polite suggestions to a number of people particularly joe offer

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Lighter
Date: 18 May 16 - 07:38 AM

>"The Communist party must control the guns."   This appears to be a reconstruction of "Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party."

Thanks, Rap. I've been doing this for fifty years. And yes, it can be annoying.

This is the quote I suspected of being bogus. And it turns out it is.

Mao's actual words are about military power, not individual gun ownership. (There's a big difference between "the gun" and "the guns.")

The "reconstruction" (i.e., distortion), easy to find on right-wing sites, implies that he was talking about what he'd do to the Second Amendment after the Commie/liberal takeover of the U.S.

Undoubtedly he would have done it. But the distorted version is misleading about what he meant and when he meant it.

I doubt Mao spent much time plotting against the Second Amendment.

A perfect ex. of why we need to see the sources of controversial statements.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:57 AM

A polite suggestion Dick - why not italicise quotes, and enclose them in inverted commas? That way, the reader can easily see which parts are the quotes and which are your own words.

I believe that would negate the criticisms that have been directed towards you elsewhere on this thread, and others, with regard to your writing style.

In the post above, and in your earlier posts, it's difficult to see where your quotes begin and end, and which parts are your own contribution. It's very frustrating for the reader to try to understand which is which.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:33 AM

meself here is the dictionary definition of communism
a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.
Maos political policies did not do that, therefore he was not a true communist
here is a quote from wiki which show a couple of his policies and their results
In 1957, he launched the Great Leap Forward campaign that aimed to rapidly transform China's economy from an agrarian economy to an industrial one. The campaign led to a widespread famine, whose death toll is estimated at between 18 and 45 million. In 1966, he initiated the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, a program to remove "counter-revolutionary" elements of Chinese society that lasted 10 years and which was marked by violent class struggle.
the great leap forward did not result in property being owned by the community and people receiving unto their needs, it resulted in famine.
Mao was an egomaniacal imbecile

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:33 AM

meself here is the dictionary definition of communism
a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.
Maos political policies did not do that, therefore he was not a true communist
here is a quote from wiki which show a couple of his policies and their results
In 1957, he launched the Great Leap Forward campaign that aimed to rapidly transform China's economy from an agrarian economy to an industrial one. The campaign led to a widespread famine, whose death toll is estimated at between 18 and 45 million. In 1966, he initiated the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, a program to remove "counter-revolutionary" elements of Chinese society that lasted 10 years and which was marked by violent class struggle.
the great leap forward did not result in property being owned by the community and people receiving unto their needs, it resulted in famine.
Mao was an egomaniacal imbecile

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:17 PM

"There is a serious tendency towards capitalism among the well-to-do peasants. This tendency will become rampant if we in the slightest way neglect political work among the peasants during the co-operative movement and for a very long period after."

Introductory note to "A Resolute Struggle Must Be Waged Against the Tendency Towards Capitalism" (1955), The Socialist Upsurge in China's Countryside, Chinese ed., Vol. I.

"Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy."   --Mao Zedong, On Practice and Contradiction.

"The Communist party must control the guns."   This appears to be a reconstruction of "Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party."
--"Problems of War and Strategy" (November 6, 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 224.

"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery. It cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."
                --"Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan" (March 1927), Selected Works, Vol. I, p. 28.

Please look them up yourself from now on if I do not supply a source. I did that for 40+ years and I'm tired of it.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 08:21 PM

Well, it's truth for some, Greg.

So, I suppose, is the spew that Trump comes up with & so is "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" Joe.

But that's stretching the definition of "truth", methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: meself
Date: 17 May 16 - 06:09 PM

Private Schweik - You've said several times that Mao was not a 'true' communist, and I've heard the same said of almost every prominent nominally-communist leader. So, for the sake of discussion, would you care to explain why, in your view, Mao was not a 'true communist'? Only if you feel like it; no pressure!

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 16 - 05:07 PM

its quite clear who the author was it is mentioned at the bottom of the post. in my second post i made it clear he was an american conservative. none of which alters the fact that Mao was not a true communist, that he invaded and occupied tibet and that thousands of chines people have dissappeared or are unaccounted for;.
if you do not agree with that joe, you are walking around with closed eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:17 PM

Well, it's truth for some, Greg. Can't say I agree with them...

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 02:41 PM

Ah, the Heritage Foundation! That fount of truth!

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 16 - 02:20 PM

Since Dick failed to do so (as is his habit), I gave a link to the source of the text of the first message in the second message of this thread.

It is an article titled The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder, By Lee Edwards, Ph.D., published in February 2010 on the Website of the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank based in Washington, DC.

On the same day he started this thread, Dick reopened a 2003 thread about Neil Sharpley. He reopened the other thread by copying the text of somebody's 2003 message from earlier in the thread, and pasting it in as if it were his own message - giving no indication that this was a message written by another person in 2003.

This practice makes it difficult for the rest of us to carry on a discussion. If you post text that comes from somebody else, please do the rest of us the courtesy of telling us where you got the text from.

In addition, in both of these instances, Did did not post one word of his own. This is my personal opinion, but I think it is rude to post the work of somebody else without any explanation. If you wish to start or reopen a thread, don't just post a link or a copy-paste. Give at least a sentence or two telling us what you want to talk about, and what your own thinking is on the matter. These are not rules for Mudcat. These are my own observations of the principles of human communication. If you communicate only in copy-pastes and links, that's not really communication.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Lighter
Date: 17 May 16 - 01:32 PM

I think you'll see that it was.

The real problem is the lack of quotation marks to indicate direct quotation.

If there was also a mediating source, that too should have been indicated.

Common cut-&-paste problems.

The quotes from Mao should be sourced as well.

Websites often misquote and attribute fake quotes to famous people, esp. famous (or infamous) historical figures.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: meself
Date: 17 May 16 - 01:12 PM

Yes - but the point of the criticism is, of course, not that the source is or isn't authoritative, but that no source was given in the opening cut-and-paste.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Lighter
Date: 17 May 16 - 12:44 PM

Eight authors and editors of various nationalities, 858 pages, Harvard University Press, 1999.

Books don't get much more authoritative than that.

From N.Y. Times review by Alan Ryan, Professor of Politics at Oxford: "This is the body count of a colossal, wholly failed, social, economic, political, and psychological experiment. It is a criminal indictment, and it rightly reads like one."

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 May 16 - 12:39 PM

" According to the authoritative "Black Book of Communism,"

These are not the words of the opening poster, just a part of the unattributed copy and paste. The original author's name and details do appear towards the end of the post but I suspect that this was fortuitous, rather than a deliberate acknowledgement, as the copy and paste spilt over past the end of the original article , ending rather strangely in mid-sentence.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 16 - 07:10 AM

Bill,

" According to the authoritative "Black Book of Communism," "

Named source



See OP.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Ed T
Date: 16 May 16 - 07:57 PM

"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished - unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
Voltaire

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:47 PM

It was not the truth of the OP that concerned Joe originally...or me, who just now saw this thread. It was the total LACK of quotation marks or named sources. If I was still teaching beginning college students, such an omission would be grounds for failing the students' paper.

It is always proper to make clear the difference between one's own opinion and the opinion of someone elses article.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:46 PM

I trust that the same criteria will be used of other isms...

You thinking of Creation-ISM, pete? Whose leaders do, indeed, behave VERY badly.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: meself
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:32 PM

We'll get an argument going here yet - don't give up!

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:36 PM

According to the good soldier , it was Maoism that Mao practised not communism. I trust that the same criteria will be used of other isms , particularly when the leaders of those isms did not behave badly.    But I wonder whether the same reasoning wil be used as regards other leaders and states that identify as communist.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 16 - 02:09 PM

Certainly their relatives care. The people of the country care. And rightly so, and we should care about the victims, direct and indirect.

Which is precisely why I do not wish to give any of these leaders "pride of place" as the one who killed most. All reached such depths that they are to be condemned utterly, irrespective of numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 16 - 12:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 15 May 16 - 02:51 PM

Reputedly by Stalin: one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.


I have no interest is whether Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and the other contenders killed most. Each killed enough to be condemned unreservedly and dwelling on the precise number aggrandises them In a way I am not prepared to. When people reach this level of monstrosity, the numbers reflect opportunity more than anything else.
      you may have no interest, but the relatives of those killed probaly feel differently, and anybody believes in justice would surely want to expose and let people know about the chines occupation of a peaceful nation tibet and the murderous behaiviour of chines governments from 1950 until 1992, most of which was down to maoand which his predecessors appear to have inherited. china must leave Tibet now.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: leeneia
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:05 AM

I had a friend (RIP) who visited China more than twenty years ago. Sorry, I don't remember the year. She showed us a picture of her guide, and said the guide told her group that he had had a little sister. One day, during the so-called Cultural Revolution, an armed youth showed up and took the little girl away. They never saw her again.

There was nowhere to protest, and for years they were afraid to speak of it.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 May 16 - 07:56 AM

There is a serious tendency toward capitalism among the well-to-do peasants.

Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy.

The Communist party must control the guns.

A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery. It cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.

                                          -- Mao Zedong

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Lighter
Date: 16 May 16 - 07:50 AM

According to The Yale Book of Quotations (edited by the estimable Fred Shapiro), Lord Acton wrote the following to Mandell Creighton on April 3, 1887:

"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:27 AM

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Winston S Curchill.

At the risk of thread drift - quotes attributed to Churchill are like songs that become Irish, no matter what their origin.

According to multiple sources on the Internet, including this one, the quote most often used is from a letter written by Lord Acton in 1887. Even then, the idea wasn't original. Something similar had been used several times before then, most notably by William Pitt the Elder in 1770.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 May 16 - 03:24 AM

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Winston S Curchill.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:09 PM

Yep, I realised that Megan, but your post piqued my interest so I checked and posted my findings. You were absolutely correct.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Megan L
Date: 15 May 16 - 03:33 PM

I was checking my dates after what MGM said

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 16 - 03:28 PM

"backwoodsman, i never connected MAO with Tiananmen Square protests, did I?"

You might not have done, but MeganL did in her post of 15 May 16 - 10:44 AM. It was her comment I was responding to.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 02:51 PM

Reputedly by Stalin: one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.


I have no interest is whether Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and the other contenders killed most. Each killed enough to be condemned unreservedly and dwelling on the precise number aggrandises them In a way I am not prepared to. When people reach this level of monstrosity, the numbers reflect opportunity more than anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 16 - 02:12 PM

backwoodsman, i never connected MAO with Tiananmen Square protests, did I?
However,Chinese governments following Mao, clearly inherited his murderous nature, none of which alters the fact that Mao as a dictator murdered more people than hitler or stalin, what he practised was not Communism but maoism ,the cult of mao

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 16 - 01:44 PM

Date of death of Mao Tse Tung: 9/9/76
Dates of Tiananmen Square protests:15/4/89 - 4/6/89

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 16 - 01:37 PM

So now it appears i have to explain why I have posted, do I?
That is rather reminiscent of the Spanish inquisition,or an inquisition by any authoritarian regime.
I am very sorry , how dare I question the integrity of a mass murderer, when western capitalists are desperate to trade with China, and do nothing to free tibet from chinese imperialist occupation, and who would like to quietly hush up chinas recent past.
I must write out one thousand times that I must not start a thread without giving reference to why i started it at this particular time AND THAT I MUST GIVE AN OPINION.
it is my experience on this forum, that it is better.when one is asking for the truth or opinions on a subject, to just present facts and then ask people for their opinions on whether they think it may be biased, that is what i did and that is what i will continue to do.
if others do not like it they can start their own posts on the subject, have a nice day

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 16 - 01:20 PM

Megan, I understood Joes comments. To which i have already replied,
I have strong opinions on Mao, I also take into consideration that the article was written by an American Conservative, however certain things are indisputable,
1 The chinese imperialist occupation of Tibet.
2.The terrible behaviour of the red guards who were obeying Maos orders.
3, The fact that what Mao practised was not communism even though he called it communism.

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 May 16 - 01:19 PM

....with no reference to why it was posted at this particular time....

Presumably, the significance at this particular time is that the Cultural Revolution started 50 years ago this month. It's a pity that the opening post didn't make this clear.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: chairman Mao mass murder is it true
From: meself
Date: 15 May 16 - 10:49 AM

So ... who are we arguing with, here?