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Today in Ireland's History
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Subject: Lyr Add: WHO DARES TO SAY FORGET THE PAST From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:14 AM As it is the anniversary of the murder of four of freedom's champions, Rory, Liam, Dick and Joe, I offer the following recitation I learned in Belfast, some time around 1977. I never learned to spell in any language, so feel free to correct spelling os Gaelige or os Berla. To our English comrades who don't understand, please accept that their are more things in heaven or earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy, and to all those comrades English and of any nation, that do understand, one day that understanding will bring together a mighty working class response to those leaders of industry and their political puppets, who seek to divide us and profit from our being divided by wars, for which we in the working class never derive the benefits. Who dares to say forget the past, to those of Irish birth? Who dares to say cease fighting, for our place upon this earth? Let remembrance be our watchword, and our dead we will never fail. Let their graves to be us as milestones, on that blood-soaked one-way trail. Remember how Owain Rowe fought, Port Lester mill beside. No man can say a coward fell when Hugh O'Donnell died. Remember Ruth and Starsfield and forget, whoever will, That glorious stand in Limerick, at Kilnacaden hill. How Emmitt's gallant handful, in historic Dublin Town, Rode forth to give their challenge, to the forces of the crown. And then for a time, 'twas silent. Was Ireland's struggle done? The answer is in the negative, thundered many a Fenian gun. And then when England thought she'd won, that we at last were meek, Roared forth the glorious challenge of the men of Easter week! Remember how our solders fought the scum of many lands, Fought the scum of Britain's prisons - Britain's "Black and Tans". And then by men we trusted, this land of ours was sold. They sold our friends to enemies, as Judas did, of old. Remember how in Kerry they butchered our lads like swine! God! Think of Ballyseedy, where they tied them to a mine. How Rory and Liam and Dick and Joe, to glut the Imperial beast, Were murdered, while in prison, on our Blessed Lady's feast. How, with overworked revolver as he dashed from that hotel, Roared a rebel's last defiance as Cathal Brugha fell. Hear we not the voice of Connelly, the worker-soldier's friend? Our conquered soul asserts itself, and WE SHALL RISE AGAIN! For Freedom, yes and not to starve, and not for rocks and clay, But for the lives of Ireland's working class, we fight and die today. And what, says Cathal Brugha, if the last man is on the ground, If he is lying, week and helpless, and his enemies ring him round? If he has fired his final bullet, and spent his final shot, And they say, Come into the Empire, he will answer, I WILL NOT! Then back, back to that one-way trail. Ni shiorchan go saorcha is the war cry of the Gael! While out country stands beside us with the blood of martyrs set, Wayside crosses to remind us, WHO DARES TO SAY FORGET? While Emmitt's tomb is uninscribed, until we our rights assert, Until our country takes her place among the nations of the earth. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:21 AM YES!YES!YES! Thank you Larry! I LOVE Nationalistic Irish poetry, in fact, I'm setting a good deal of it to music. I know all those great men the poem mentions, and I will never forget them! FAG AN BEALACH!!!!!! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 08 Dec 99 - 11:21 AM Good words and thoughts, but I thought the thread was going to be about what was actually happening there, this week, concerning peace. Had actually thought about starting a thread the other day about it; it seemed so momentous and something to celebrate with caution. kat |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GeorgeH Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:20 PM Thanks, Kat/Kat, for a welcome sense of perspective; I'll desist from mounting my high horse. And - as so often - I can't help wondering which side of the Atlantic has the pleasure of InObu and Mbo's residence. G. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:32 PM My dear Brother GeorgeH I live on the side of the Atlantic which does not have political censorship laws, though I have lived on the other as well. I realize that those who live behind the curtain of censorship often wonder at the political perspectives of those who do, however, on the day when you can read the Stalker Report, you will understand. In favor of peace and democracy Larry PS On this side we have ecconomic censorship of local political news, so to be a well informed citizen over here takes a bit of work as well, however from your other posts, I think you and I agree on the limits of freedom in the USA - As to why the US? My wife did not like living in Ireland, which had special challenges for women, in the seventies and eighties, though Ireland is changing in that reguard. Life is more than single issues. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:34 PM I live in North Carolina! You know, George, I'm really getting tired of you and your anti-Irish-patriotism. Maybe you think Cromwell should have eradicated the Irish, and had done with us! You think they're "nothing but a bunch of murderers" like Paul Brady says! Irish Nationalistic poetry and music has just as much right to be proclaimed as anyone elses! I don't hear anyone complaining about American & British nationalism! I here more songs ESPECIALLY from England about how they beat up the French (whom I ALSO like) than songs about peace. I'd rather read about Hugh O' Neill & O' Donnell's exploits and I'm sure so would a lot of Irish! MULLACH EIREANN ABU! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:42 PM To be fair to GeorgeH, Mbo, let us not paint him worse than he has been. He did ackowlege the wrongs of Cromwell, to a degree in Ireland, though his perspective is different from a difference in upbringing. Perhapes being Anglo Irish I have a degree more tolerance, though I have lost dear and close friends to Britains shoot to kill policies and other military tactics in Ireland. Let us listen to what George says, and not what we hear in his words. Best to both of you Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:46 PM Everyone talks about peace, but no one wants to remember what it took to achieve it. What about all those who believed in the cause of peace so much, they gave they lives to attain what others might enjoy? NEVER NEVER forget what those men and women with guns, swords, or words did for us. To forget the war and resistance that forged that peace is to invalidate the lives of those who died trying to make our lives better. Americans remember Nathan Hale, English remember Lord Nelson, so why can't the Irish remeber Eoghan Ruadh O' Neill or Wolfe Tone? Let peace reign over the land, and peace reign over the sleep of those we owe our comfortable modern lives to. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:50 PM PS I dropped a letter two posts back, that should read wonder at the political perspectives of those who DO NOT live in countries with political censorship. Mbo... we have an obligation to help break throgh a wall of lies and censorship and to do so, we have to acknowlege that people of good faith may dissagree and not have the knowlege we do. For GeorgeH, let me pass on a story of political censorship, of a kind. I had the pleasure of spending some time with Frank Holroid, when I was in law school. He was a defector from either MI 5 or 6, I get the two mixed up, I must admit. His job in Ireland was to put spin on Rueters news. An example was the reporting on the death of Patrick Campbell. Campbell was the head of the Shankill Butchers. They would take Catholics, indiscriminately chosen, and torture them in a back room of a pub refered to as the rumpus room. A Loyalist, who informed on them was publicly tortured to death by them. For decades no action was taken against him, so one day he was killed by Irish Republicans. The Rueters story ran as follows. Today in Belfast, Patrick Campbell, a Butcher, was killed in a sectarian murder. It is hard in such an invironment to know what is going on, and being done with the indorcement of your vote. Peace and understanding Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:57 PM Also, Mbo: Peace is not a simple absoult. I have known Burnadette McCaulisky for many years and as with most things, we agree on the present treaty, we are against it. However, we are both against continuing a war when the other side is involved in talking, even if that talk is without honest intentions. Violence must always be defensive. Many American Irish are not aware of the degree that the Repulican movement has stuck by this concept for generations. I never met a volunteer who did not pick up a gun without great reluctence. We, Repulicans, of all people, cannot see issues as black and white, there are mostly grey aries. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:01 PM I follow this thread with interest. GeorgeH, Mbo, and InOBU are relative newcomers to this forum, and I read your posts with interest. I would recommend you all read some of the earlier threads on the subject, such as "Back Home in Derry". George, when you talk music, you are very helpful and insightful. Your discussions of Irish matters always puzzle me though. You are quick to make horseshit snide comments like the one above ("I can't help but wonder which side of the Atlantic.........")which has absolutely no relevance whatever to the discussion at hand. It is cheap and of no value. Whatever gave an Englishman any more right to comment on Irish affairs than an American? You don't live in that country any more than we do. Your heritage, perhaps? I am only in this country because the policies of the British government made it impossible for people like my grandparents who were of Republican political leanings to live in their own country? A more intimate knowledge of what the true political situation is? I doubt it. Your media actively censors all information on the North of Ireland. Always has. Americans support the IRA with no knowledge of the misery they cause? How about Brits that support the actions of the RUC and the British Army, when even Amnesty International condemns the action of both. The point of my tirade is this. I tire of self righteous folks from that side of the Atlantic telling Yanks what they should or shouldn't have an opinion on. There is at least an argument that says the current and best hope of long term peace and disarmament would not have been possible without us Yanks. Let us leave this pious hypocritical bullshit behind and join with our cousins as they boldly march towards peace. We owe it to the children. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:11 PM Big Mick! Read the Mudcat Night before Christmas - St. Nick is bringing a harp for you as well, Brother! Slan go foil Is mise le meas Larry As to those who make ad hominum arguemnts on political topics, Bad Bobby and his sister Fiona ran down the stairs to see their stockings on Christmas day in the Morning. Och! Bobbie! Look! Ive a watch and it is running! Bobbie reached in to his stocking to find something vile with some hay, as is traditional for bad weens, Look! Fee! Ive got a Horse AND ITS GONE! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 02:30 PM Well said. Personally, I think the IRA and whoever the Ulster baddies are should just throw there weapons into the sea and let Manannan MacLir do his job. The've got freedom already--they shouldn't botch it up by trying too hard in the cause of freedom. I know the main problem is the Catholics in Northern Ireland don't like being under British rule. And the rebellion against that is whats causing the Protestants grief. My advice is--England, let it have it's freedom, with joint rule. Extremists must step down. Look, the Protestants are not going to reinstate The Penal Laws, and the Catholics aren't going to try to convert all the Protestants. If everyone could just get past those stereotypes, maybe we would see peace. "Star Trek" predicts peace WILL come in 2017. Let's all hope and pray that it comes true! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:34 PM A Lorcan na gCurach and Mbo, Below is a poem that I wrote one day during the war in Kosovo, after hearing a story on the radio about a woman who had been forced to leave her village with her newborn baby. The baby died on the way to the border and the woman had no choice but to bury the child on the side of the road in the snow. I reacted to this story as a woman and a mother, with no political theory or side or ideal. The sorrow I felt was a culmination of the historical misery of the women and children of Ireland and the knowledge that this kind of misery is still inflicted on women and children to this day. Before any of you fellas start slinging bad words and accusations at each other again, stop a moment and think of the ones that always suffer the most in war. Le meas agus gach dea-ghui, Áine
Ar Bhóthar i gCósovó |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:39 PM Let me try to put what should take a long book to tell, simply. This is the result of a number of court cases Ive worked on as well as first hand experience. GeorgeH was amused by my reading of the cold war NATO, part in the trobles. This is - in brief, how it goes. In the mid sixties, there was a trend to non-alinement begun with the withdrawl of Spain. Australia also, voting in a socialist PM, was indanger of not allowing NATO to use its ports for nuclear weapons, as New Zeland later chose not to do. The strange death of the Austrailian PM made some think that NATO would do anything to keep the trend of non-alinement from spreading. As you may know, Ireland has a constitutional garentee of nuetrality. Simple ecconomics do not explain England supporting the loyalist community, and the surpression of democracy gives lie to the statement that they support majority rule in the North, Derry for decades had an English supported gerymandered system whereby two thirds of the population were controled by the votes on one third. While all this was going on, there were losses, each year off the coast of the lower 26 counties, of fishing boats, that it was proven were draged under by British subs getting fouled in their nets, while placeing listening divices off the coast to monitor Soveit subs, useing Ireland as a sonic lea, to approach the coast of England. The only place for much of the latter part of the century, you could stage a defense of the Scappa Flow, was Ireland, and Ireland has been seen as necessary in flying large amounts of military materials to Europe, as a staging ground, the reason a totally unneeded airport was built in Mayo at Knock. Irelands nuetrality and airports were made use of by NATO, to bomb the mid east, and the door was opened a crack to a negotiated peace in Ireland, confirming the theories of a number of us, who said it was about NATO all along. Add to this that the three years of secret negotiations with the IRA began the year of the break up of the Soviet Union, and there is more evidence. This all gives credence to the Icaris plan, a NATO document, made public by Irish Republicans, who said it was authentic at the time, and I think it probubly was, that came to light in the late seventies or early eighties, that held that if Russian tanks moved into Germany, NATO would force Ireland to allow the US to use Irelands airports as staging grounds for NATOs responce. ANyone who thinks wars among supper powers are about small regional disputes, has not learned much about history Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 08 Dec 99 - 06:29 PM Very interesting postings, phoaks. Mick, thanks for jumping in; we've been here before, eh? My original comment in this post was not intended in any way to cast aspersions on either side. As a woman and a mother, I am appalled at the killing and destruction by both factions and wish only for peace. Some of my heritage comes from Northern Ireland to Nova Scotia; don't know much more than that, except that I've always had an affinity for the Isle and its traditional heritage. These days there is no reason to accuse others of not knowing the truth about things. We can get our news from around the world, from independent sources. Before writing an editorial, in 1998, on Portadown, I read many accounts from several sources for a better perspective. I quote from it: That the Orangemen want to flaunt a victory from 1690 by parading through the Catholic neighborhood of Portadown is obscene, deadly and childish. Written just sixteen years after that battle, how ironic that the following by Jonathan Swift is so applicable to our times: "We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another". Yes, we should honour those who have fallen in struggle and never forget them, but we should not glorify the wars that caused their deaths and use that as an excuse to continue hatred and violence. kat
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 06:35 PM Get Back Get Back, We re under fearce attack Haul down the flag, o William, the sargent saddly cried It was the bogside doodlebug, the poor man he had spied (smiling) Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 06:51 PM I think we should remember the wars, but not use them to continue violence. We remember the American Revolution, and are on good terms with England now. England and France hated each other for years, and we remember and honor things like the Hundred Years War or the Napoleonic Wars, and England & France now are best buds. I think Si Kahn had it right when he sang "It's not the fight you're dreaming of, but those you really fought." Let the wars & heroes & people be remebered, and let us have the kind of peace that will not need us repeat those wars to keep it. --Mbo(caoineadh) |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:05 PM I wouldn't say that England and France were best buds. I know this has nothing to do with independence in Northern Irlenad but you can't blame everything on the English. To a large extent, the Irish people were victims of their own aristocrats who betrayed them during the potato famine. It wasn't just the fault of the British but also greedy Irish lords who wouldn't help their tenants. The history of Scotland and Ireland is full of cruelty and betrayal, often at the hands of their own aristocracy who were more concerned about filling their own coffers than the welfare of their people. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:07 PM Sadly, you're right. "It's heart pierced by traitors and slaves." --Mbo |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE 12TH OF JULY^^ From: Big Mick Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:37 PM I am going to post a poem, written probably 150 years ago, and originally pointed out to me by Philippa (How are you, my friend?). Sean Tyrell set it to music, and I have now begun to perform it at every performance. In it the author uses the Orange Lily and its green stem as a metaphor for the parties, and the good soil is Ireland. This isn't about being Orange or Green, it is about being Irish. The poem is so relevant today.................... 12th of July Come pledge again your heart and your hand One grasp that will never sever Our password be our native land, our motto love forever And let the Orange Lily be, your badge my patriot brother. It's the everlasting green for me, and we.......for one another Behold how green that gallant stem, on which the flower is blooming How in one heavenly breeze and beam, both flower and stem are glowing The same good soil sustaining both makes both united flourish Yet cannot give the orange growth and cease the green to nourish The more the hand that plucks that flower Will vainly strive to cherish But in that hour the stem blooms on The flower it begins to perish Regard them then of equal worth While last their genial weather The time's at hand when deep in earth They will both sink together And even though it be in our country's cause Our party feelings blended 'Til lasting peace from equal laws On both will have descended 'Til then the Orange Lily be Your badge my patriot brother It's the everlasting green for me And we........for one another |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:40 PM Read everything by Dr. Kristeen Conealy about the famine, she proves it was English policy to clear the lands of peasent farmers, and the famine was the tool. Ill get back with titles and the proper spelling of her name, or she will give me a well deserved punch next time she is in New York. She teaches at the University of Liverpool, and is a truely fine scholar. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Ferret Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:40 PM Oh No not again |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: alison Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:53 PM Why do we have to keep dredging this up? The people of Ireland have made their choice.. they have chosen peace.... and it is going to be a long hard road with many hurdles before they get there..... but "more power to their elbows" for trying. We can't even discuss it here without people getting hostile or defensive, so think how hard it is for the people who live there. They have centuries of mistrust and suspicion to overcome...... let's help them instead of raking it all up over and over..... I can understand GeorgeH asking about backgrounds.... there are many "plastic shamrock Irish" who have seen riverdance and reckon they know all there is to know, without knowing any of the actual history.... no offense intended, I'm not suggesting this is the case here.... Let's try and concentrate on peace.... My background???? born and raised in Belfast lived there for 27 years right through "the troubles.".... now I'm in Oz.... I left in search of sunshine and jobs... not to escape. slainte alison |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WHITE SNOW OF THE SPRINGTIME From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:09 PM Now that's some poem, Aine. And is it a song as well? And that's a great song too Big Mick. What kind of tune is it? I find it hard to take happy triumphalist songs about war, or the thought of people cheering it on from a distance. And I think that's what George H is on about in his question about where people live. There's a different flavour to support for armed struggle when it's from thousands of miles away, or when it's from places where there've been bombings. That's something which the English and the Irish, both in Ireland and in England, have in common, whatever we think about the people who've been doing the bombing. It's something which neither of us share with the Americans, or the American born Irish for that matter. (And that's not saying that people in America haven't got a right to have a view and a role to play). The war's been an awful thing. No one is free from blame, though the main blame lies on a succession of English politicians, mostly on the right. Over the past century, they have used Ireland as an instrument for advancing their own domestic agenda, "playing the Orange card" whenever it suits them. Both sections of the Northern Irish community have been cheated and exploited, and trapped in a fratricidal civil war. And they have done awful things to each other. My father was 18 months in jail for fighting the Staters in the Civil War, and he was broken hearted by what was happening in the North during his last years before he died. He used to say they brought shame on the IRA. It's a pretty shoddy peace deal in many ways; most peace deals are like that. But if it provides a space within which the two parts of the Northern Irish community can learn to recognise that they have far more in common with each other than with England, it can mean an end to the longest war on the planet. God knows where it goes from here. Maybe when the Scots have broken away from England there'll be a confederation of Scotland and two Irish States within the European Union? Maybe King Charles will turn Catholic, and Ian Paisley will have to become a Republican... On a more domestic Mudcat note - "You know, George, I'm really getting tired of you and your anti-Irish patriotism." That's hardly fair, Mbo. The man thinks that, while Cromwell did terrible things in Ireland he did some good in England. I don't agree with him, but it's not "anti-Irish". I know people who have been active in opposing the British involvement in Ireland would share that view. Tony Benn for example. And as for "I don't hear anyone complaining about American & British nationalism!", well I'll be happy enough to do so anytime it gets out of hand and takes itself seriously. Here's a song I wrote for the peace process a couple of years ago: WHITE SNOW OF THE SPRINGTIME Well it came like some angel before you could know. Now the blossom is fallen, it's gone like the snow. The blossom is fallen, now the white tree is green - When the summer is over then the fruit will be seen. White snow of the springtime, new hope once again, Strength to us all, till we meet here as friends, With hearts joined together, for all that is done - Peace ever after, from here and now on, Peace ever after, from here and now on. Now it's time to remember the lessons we learn As we walk down this road, on which there's no return. Skies that are cloudy, the grass that is green, We carry them with us, those sights we have seen. White snow of the springtime, new hope once again, Strength to us all, till we meet here as friends, With hands joined together, for all that is done - Peace ever after, from here and now on, Peace ever after, from here and now on. No greater love could a man ever show Than to lay down his dreams for his friends and his foes. Now and for ever, to stretch out those hands, Peace to the people of these troubled lands White snow of the springtime, new hope once again, Strength to us all, till we meet here as friends, With hands joined together, for all that is gone - Peace ever after, from here and now on. Peace ever after, from here and now on. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:19 PM Thanks, Mick. I love that poem, and have read it many times myself. Well, here's one "plastic shamrock Paddy" who knows his stuff. I don't read anything else nowadays except books about Irish history and folklore. Though my actual Irish blood may only equal 10% of the whole, I feel I have this duty to destroy the stereotype of the Irish, and to achieve a greater understanding of the people. I try to teach people about St.Columcille & Brendan, and The Dagda and The Firbolgs, and Finn and Oisin and Caoilte, Grace O'Malley, Brian Boru, and O'Carolan, and Rafferty, and have them think of the richness of Irish history & culture, instead of shamrocks and leprechauns and getting drunk on green beer and Danny Boy and When Irish Eyes Are Smiling. I love to dispel these preconcieved notions about many cultural groups, Native Americans, French, Scots, Germans, Italian, and YES the Japanese. Don't let ol' George make you think I'm a racist or bigot who doesn't care about other country's and culture's pain & sorrow. I lived in Japan for 3 years, and came to understand their way of life and culture. My family used to do a monthly newsletter for folks back home, all about Japanese culture. If have a great respect for them, and destest any ridicule made against them. I don't give a dingo's kidney about WWII. To me, all that is over and done, they were forgiven long before I even moved to Japan. And there ARE great stories on either side, and I love them equally. I have no hatred for the Japanese whatsoever, but then again I was not in WWII, so maybe it's easier for us young folks to forgive and forget... --Mbo (Oyasumi Nasai) |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:48 PM Mick, Alison, McGrath, Aine, THIS is why I keep coming to the Mudcat. Your words, songs, poems you've posted, bring tears to my eyes, in a feeling of empathy, hope, poignancy. Reminds me, once again, of the thread, If M'Catters Ruled the World, 'twould be a far, far better place, IMHO. Thank you, kat |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:58 PM Mister McGrath, I bow to your wisdom. A marvelous post and a brilliant set of lyrics. Have you set it to a tune? I would, with your permission, love to perform it. I want to add a set of songs to the rebel repertoire that cause the Shamrock Irish here in the states to think about what it is they support. I am looking for songs that challenge perceptions about the troubles, challenge the Grandchildren of Ireland to think about something more than slogans and rebel music. I want them to think of the children and the families, in both communities, that must live with the madness. And I want them to quit dehumanizing the parties to all this. It is how the Generals keep the fight going. It is how the demagogues continue playing a religion card to keep Christians of different flavors at one anothers throat, and full of fear and loathing instead of peace and love. And, most of all, I want them to listen to all the people of Ireland, instead of only the voices that have something to gain by the sorrow continuing. We, the children of the Irish Diaspora, have a stake. But it must never be a stake through the heart of the peace process. Am I forsaking my Republican roots? Not in this life, boyo. But it seems to me the hour of victory is at hand. And all we have to do is support the wishes of the people of that blessed land. If we do that with the same vigor that we supported the armed struggle, the end is obvious. And no more children will have to grow with the shadow of the troubles over them. No more madness such as Omagh....No more hate in the name of Christ. And "Irelands wealth for Irelands people" (James Connolly) Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:58 PM Can we all join hands now and sing Sean Keane's "Songs of Healing"? Anyone? --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Gint Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:59 PM Mbo has a point, most religions purport forgiveness so let people sort out their problems. to be honest you can pontificate as much as you like but it is the people who have to live with Brits on the street and men in masks who you need to be thinking of it is for them to decide what to do.....not you it's looking good for peace, let them get on with it I'm not saying forget but do forgive
As an aside the only thing I'm biggoted about is mime artists... if you have something to say, say it, damn it |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:12 PM I found out that when Cromwell and the Puritans were eliminating theater, among other things, in England, they had a particular hatred of mimes, and a strong wish to execute them all. Perhaps he was not all bad after all? --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: _gargoyle Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:20 PM Very Nice!
May I suggest (sincerely and truly) a regular posting (weekly or monthly or even daily ((but something as methodical as "daily" becomes a drag upon the poster....and it also quickly looses its' audience)))
ANYTHING to counter the "thought for a day" that has currently been running.
Most of use in the STATES are facinated with Ireland and can use a little "education."
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:28 PM A Chaoimhin agus a Cait (McGrath and Kat), Go raibh mile maith agaibh (thank you both very much). Yes, McGrath, I do have a tune to that poem. Kat's heard it, even though I have a hard time singing it without breaking down. Hopefully, you'll be able to hear on the Mudcat Radio in a couple of weeks (if the lungs heal enough from the pneumonia). I'd truly love to hear your song, too. And yourself there, Big Mick, when do we get to hear you? This is how we will promote the healing, through the music. Like the little drummer boy, this is the only gift I have to give. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Gint Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:47 PM Áine get better so we can all hear it Music is a great healer, it makes you happy, sad, thoughtful and bad it always gets a reaction out of you and can pull you from the brink Healing through music both physical and emotional music is definately a mover Get well and kind thoughts |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 01:09 AM Aine, Fine poem, it is nice to see that classical Irish poetry is alive and well. As to the so called American facination with Ireland - My family have always been, first and foremost Otways - wheither in Wales Ireland England Austrailia or the US, and have a sence of our family where ever we are born. I grew up in a strong ballad tradition, and lived on both sides of the puddle. The same ones who object about our advocasy for Irish civil rights, would be the first, I believe, to be a comrad when we try to advocate for the rights of ethnic minorities in the third world or eastern Europe. As to the level of education, though my spelling is hampered by a learning disability, I have a Juris Doctorate, earned in the third best law school in the US, and got into that school before there was an Americans with Disabilities act, so earned on my own tallents and merits (not to say that thouse who get accomodations for their dissabilities did not make it on their merits.) My education about Irish politics happened on the streets of Belfast, and in most of Irelands western counties. Again, I fail to see how living exclusively in an environment of censorship gives one a better perspective than one who travels back and forth to that country and has access to facts that are suppressed in England and Ireland? But, there again, maybe to really understand the situation you need to have blinders on. I am reminded of the George Orwell book 1984, (yes I do read and respect English authors) What a wonderful Orwellian world where censorship opens your eyes to the truth... |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 09 Dec 99 - 03:26 AM Aine, sorry I didn't say something. It is a beautiful song, guys and she does a wonderful job of singing it, with or without tears, although there was no way I could stop mine from flowing when I heard her sing it. Thanks for the background, Larry, interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Alan of Australia Date: 09 Dec 99 - 06:50 AM G'day, Just to clear up a bit of Aussie history, InOBU, your sentence about our PMs reads as if the "socialist" PM was the one who died in strange circumstances. The PM who died in possibly strange circumstances was Harold Holt in 1967. He drowned while swimming at a beach near his home. The body was never recovered, leading to much speculation. He was Liberal, i.e. on the right of the political spectrum. (Tory clone). Our first left wing PM since 1949 was Gough Whitlam, elected in 1972. He is still alive & well as are our other recent Labor PMs.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:10 AM THanks for the corrections here Alan: The worry about the loss of your PM, and that in fact was the incident I refer to, is that it came during a time that the CIA had been exposed as having been responcible for several poliitcal assasinations of elected leaders, for example Patrice LaMumba, in the Congo, who CIA defector Phil Agee, published the details of his death. Although there is no evidence, the time of his death while swimming was very questionable, as he was, correct me if I am wrong, for Austrailia taking an isolationist possition re: NATO. HEY ALAN! I hope you are helping save the OTWAYS! as long as you are down under! I dont mean those of that name, but the endangered forrest region being cut down for kleenex, I believe... Thanks for the further information, Keep preserving Oz s other great resource, Eric Boggle! Chears back at you Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GeorgeH Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:21 AM Look, sorry, guys, I don't have the time to give this justice at the moment, and certainly won't have time to come back to it. And while Mudcatters would be sympathetic to the reasons why that is so, I don't have time to go into that either. Back there someone said: >Let's try and concentrate on peace.... and one of my original protagonists suggested a song of reconcilliation. I applaud both sentiments. So a couple of points - not to further the argument but in the hope of offering a touch of clarification. Firstly - why is the side of the atlantic significant? Well my experience is 25 years of US persons spouting simplisticly on the subject of Ireland from a position of relative ignorance - from both republican and orange sides of the division. Whether that applies to those contributing to these threads I suspend judgement on. Really, it's all too easy to trivialise complex issues - such as Ireland. InObo and Mbu both post articles after my original contribution here which suggest a more balanced perspective than other posts of theirs. Similarly, all sorts of wrong assumptions have been made about my views. All I've ever said here - on almost any political topic I've contributed to - is "things aren't as simple as that". There is more common ground between us than my critics imagine. AND I don't belive that, in reality, political censorship is much more of an issue in the UK (outside Ireland) than it is in the US - although your freedom of information legislation does offer some help in cutting through Government propagandist bullshit which is denied to us. At which point - reluctantly - I must close as I'm due to help at my daughter's school in 10 mins (she works there, rather than being a pupil). And when I come back to make up the time out I'd better get on with what I'm paid to do. Regards G. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:40 AM Have a good morning GeogreH Check the gift you got in the Mudcat night before christmas, I agree we probubly agree on much more than would come through in the single sentence jabs that happen on line. Trying to condence thrity years worth of conversations with everyone from Burnadette McCaulisky, to Sean McBride,into a few paragraphs, is not an easy task. I again repete to my fellow Republican posters, read what GeorgeH actually sais, and think of the totallity, this is an environment where missunderstandings are easy. For example, it is easy to see me as being much more hard line, as some put it, when I say I am against the treaty, as there was threat of force behind signing it, if it is ignored that I, as most others opposed to the treaty, say, we are 100% against continuation of violence while talking is possible, or more, while England is not instigating the violence. If any Repulican has a knee jerk reaction to through bricks at the English working class, I would advise taking the collected essays of James Connolly into the corner, set your chair to face the wall, and dont come to the dinner table until you understand what that great man was saying. It is an often stated native bit of wisdom, that we have one mouth but two ears, listen more than you talk, Brothers, All the best, and peaceful Christmas Larry
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:55 AM Yeah, I agree. The English people are a wonderful bunch with marvelous traditions and a well deserved reputation as a warm and hospitable group. My comments are directed at the administrations of governments that have been responsible for the troubles in the North of Ireland. I would also agree that GeorgeH's comments, in the main, are thought provoking and well informed. I always enjoy, and often disagree, his posts. As long term Mudcatter's know, the one way to provoke a nasty response from me is to paint "Yanks" with too broad a brush. It is true that there are those who are ill informed and unaware of the misery they cause by blindly contributing without real investigation. But most of the people I know, and of similar sentiment, are well informed and have studied the issue intensely. I believe that is what you see also in the comments of InOBU and Mbo. We may disagree, but the fact that we are Yanks has no bearing on the disagreement. Or at least no more than George being a Brit. Great thread........and George, the fact that you couldn't respond because of having to take the wee girl to school shows me you have great priorities...............Good man, you are!!!!!! Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: paddymac Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:02 AM This has been a great read - very informative. At slight risk of thread creep, and on the generic topic of censorship and governmental collusion, there is a great new work available fro ZRobt. Stinnett called "Day of Deceit". It deals with the Pearl harbor saga. Not fun reading, but I suggest it is very necessary reading. Slan! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: katlaughing Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:11 AM And then there's Veil by Bob Woodward of Watergate fame, in which he gives excruciating details of the "shadow" CIA under Reagan and all of the bullshit, etc. that went on with Nicaraugua, etc. Scary and in-depth, written just four years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Mbo Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:18 AM "We'll banish discord from our land, and in harmony like sisters stand." "Oh, oh, the heart's a wonder, stronger than the guns of thunder. Even when we're pulled asunder, love will find a way." --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 02:02 PM Ahh, the Shamrock Shore, a Paul Brady fan - Mbo, great song that, or didnt Delorus Keene also record it, But if those Squires would stay at home, and not to other counties roam , To build factories to employ the laboring core THen mbos, Bigmicks and Otways would be living in the old sod, eh?
All the best to all |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 99 - 02:34 PM Just come back to this and glad to see the mood of the thread hseems to have got more mellow and humane than it was tending towards.
I'd love it more than I can say, if you could sing my song, Big Mick, and Aine too. If you can read the dots, the tunes is there in my website. Clicky If my efforts weit that blue clicky thing doesn't work you can always find my website URL from the profile bbc has put in her archives for me, and it's easy to find the songs once your're there.
I think I included "White Snow" in a tape I sent to Mudcat Radio a few weeks back, along with Blue Clicky Thing and a few others. And I can send it as an email attachment too, if anyone wants it.
And InOBU - I knew Bernadette back when she was Devlin, and I feel uneasy disagreeing with her over anything to do with Ireland. If I'd had a vote in the referendum she'd have had me uneasy which way to vote. But now the votes been done, and the die is cast. What matters is to stick together.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 09 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM A Chaoimhin agus a Lorcan, I just went and reread the first verse of your song, Kevin. And then the references that you both made to Bernadette made a (non-blue) click in my head. I stood up and went to my bookcase and pulled down the copy of Bernadette's book, The Price of My Soul. I gave this book to my mother when I was teenager, and now that she has passed, it is back in my possession. Here is what I inscribed to her in the front of the book: 'To Mother: An angel of the morning (with guts). Merry Christmas! Dec. 25, 1969. Love, Áine' I don't know about you, but the hair on the back of my neck is tingling. Le gach dea-ghui, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 06:18 PM Ah McGrath and Aina A bit of concious thread drift. When remembering how long we have known, loved and been in wonder at Bernies quiet fire, and as today a court has ruled that the murder of Dr. King was indeed a conspiracy, I remember praying with such pain, upon hearing of the shooting of Bernie and her hsuband. I remember, as though it was yesterday, thinking, why am I praying again, as I did for Bobby Kennidy, for Dr. King, and knowing, with the reports, how futile those prayers felt. But, as we can never second guess either the works of God, or the British Army medic, who was meant to be their to declare her dead, but was bravely human and humain enough to do what was needed to save their lives, well it makes for a great feeling of thanks at this season of peace. One of these days, if there is an appropriate thread about travellers rights, I tell you about the only time I ever dissagreed with Bernie, two decendants of Roma, disscussing the right to travel! Seasons greetings to all, and Peace in our times Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Littlke Dorrit Date: 09 Dec 99 - 06:41 PM This has been a thought provoking thread and many valid points have been given on both sides. I do not believe as an englishwoman that I can deny the misdeeds of my forefathers and agree with inobu about the censorship of the past years. The Thatcher years destroyed this country and isolated from Europe and the rest of the world-She was a modern day imperialist no wonder the rest of the world thinks we are a cold and arrogant nation. We cannot change her legacy over night but thank god and pray hard that peace is on its way.I said in a previous thread that we do not care -that is not strictly true but was a prickly defense!. I do not associate Unionist bigotry with the kind of life that I lead in England. Irish Scottish and welsh live in the uk intermingle intermarry ad noone thinks anything of it. Hell, I even like the french!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 09 Dec 99 - 08:23 PM Áh little Dorritt! A story about harmony under she who once had to be obayed... The PM was walking down by Thames-side, when what should she see, but an out of work fellow, who said to her, Please, mum, may I have a few pence for a cup of tea? Out of my way, you filthy Bum, she responded walking on. Soon she came to another, down and out fellow, may i have a few pence for a crust of bread? Out of my way you filthy lay about. THen she spied a poor fellow, with no legs and a sign about his neck saying, Falklands War Vet. She pulled out a ten pound note and handed it to him, saying, here you are, have a good meal on me, you brave boy. Muchos Gracias, the fellow answered. |
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