Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)

Subject: Obit: Muhammad Ali
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 12:38 AM

I was born the year of the famous Foreman fight. I grew up hearing how brilliant Ali was, and now he is gone floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee where ever he is now. Fuck this year has been rough on legends.

Muhammad Ali Dead at 74

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:06 AM

He seemed so cocky and egotistic at first - like a boxing Donald Trump. But as time went on, his likeable nature came out loud and strong. He was an interesting man, and a good one.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:36 AM

Without a shadow of a doubt the best Heavyweight the world has known.

Sincere condolences to his family and friends

R.I.P.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: fat B****rd
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:01 AM

A fascinating man and an incredible boxer.
RIP Ali

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: JHW
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 05:51 AM

Well I never thought punching someone was anything to be proud about but he did sing a version of Stand By Me

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:46 AM

He was not without his flaws but he was magnificent.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:39 AM

Muhammad Ali: Rumble in heaven as you did on Earth
He is the most famous Muslim American ever, and indeed, a black man whose commitment to anti-racism led him to Islam.

"Khaled A Beydoun is an assistant professor of law at the Barry University Dwayne O Andreas School of Law."

The kind of obit/think piece we'll probably be seeing more of.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Ali/ Chevulo 

Ali was a boxer, whose career vastly transcended the sport. He was once noted as being the Worlds most recognized person.


From a boxing perspective, which is where his initial fame originated, (though it is a less favoured sport now, versus at his career peaks), my favourite match was his last one with Canadian boxer George Chevulo. Above is a summary of that fight.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 08:16 AM

Ed... Chuvalo. I watched it on TV. What a scrap! After only three weeks to train... "In the ring, Mr. Chuvalo was widely expected to succumb quickly to Mr. Ali. Instead, Mr. Ali for the first time was pushed to a full 15 rounds – even as he easily won the decision. "This was my toughest fight," Mr. Ali, dressed in what was described as a flamboyant brocade tuxedo, said afterward in the steaming Gardens press room." Toronto Globe And Mail.

"George Chuvalo is one of Canada's most famous boxers, partly because he was never knocked off his feet in 93 professional fights between 1956 and 1978. Considering that he fought some of the all-time greats — Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, George Foreman — his record of perfect verticality is one of the more remarkable feats in modern athletic history." National Post.

72-19-2

Few people speak of one of the toughest boxers ever. I remember, after the ref stopped his fight with Foreman in the third round because Chuvalo's nose was broken and bleeding, Chuvalo said, "What are you, nuts?!" I think he was...

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Tunesmith
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 08:45 AM

Greatest of all time?

I remember reading an article saying that he wasn't even the greatest of his time!

You would have to say that on a win/loss and nature of win/loss, George Foreman comes out top every time.

Ali won a stupid, Pyrrhic victory over George but - courageous as Ali was - he would not have braved a re-match with George.

Ali lost to Frazier and Norton. George smashed them to pieces.

George Foreman also smashed George Chuvalo to pieces, but Ali - see above - could hardly dent George.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM

"George Foreman also smashed George Chuvalo to pieces..." Yup. He did. But, come on now, 31 years old to 21 years old. 3 inches shorter and far less reach. You get wrapped and punched (Foreman got warned) and get punched in the back of the head on a break and get head butted (my old man went nuts when he saw that; he was a boxer of note back in the day*) and get pushed in the forehead at arms length and... I think Chuvalo did well that night too given what he was up against. But, thank Dog the ref stopped the fight because, well, Chevalo is still alive. The ref didn't even see Chuvalo's manager in the ring trying to stop the fight.

As far as heavyweights, Foreman was simply a big guy and VERY strong. Never thought much of his boxing skills. Ali, Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis and the like... those were the guys I liked to watch before I gave up watching boxing. And, of course, Teófilo Stevenson... man, he was a joy to watch. That's heavyweights. Pound for pound, Roberto Duran.

In any case, years ago, I became "adverse" to the fine art of pugilism. And, now, even the thought that UFC exists sickens me.

* Billy The Kid Owens Takes On All Comers. Three weight belts in one night.**

** There was a snowstorm and two guys couldn't get to the fights. >;-)

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Tunesmith
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 02:09 PM

gnu said "As far as heavyweights, Foreman was simply a big guy and VERY strong. Never thought much of his boxing skills"

Yeh, "simply a big guy" who demolished Frazier twice, who destroyed Ken Norton in two rounds, and who gave Ali the worst beating of his life!

Wow! And all that without much boxing skills!

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 02:38 PM

Foreman was 25 Ali was 32, Ali still took him in 8. If they'd fought when Ali was in his prime I would have given Foreman even less of a chance. Having said that, Ali was much more than just a boxer to an awful lot of people the world over.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Tunesmith
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 04:00 PM

I'm fed up with this Ali prime business.

Ali appeared great before his lay off because of the opposition.

He fought only one great fighter, Sonny Liston, in his so-called prime period.

And, if he did lose the ability to "dance" after his comeback he has only himself to blame, after all, when he got defeated by Joe Frazier, Ali was only 29!

The general consensus is that a heavyweight boxer reaches his prime after 30.

No it wasn't until his comeback that he had to face a series of really great fighters.

And, talking about comebacks, what about George Foreman.
Now that was a comeback! He was ten years out of the ring!

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 04:22 PM

I'm old enough to recall when he went by Cassius Clay, his birth-name. And I can't remember too well, but there was a little poem he broadcast on a talk show before a scheduled fight, about "the first launching of a black satellite," boasting how he was going to send his opponent flying through the air "somewhere over the Atlantic."

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:09 PM

I was in the house on my own in 1960, nine years old I was, telly on, watching him win his gold.   A little while later, he couldn't be served in a restaurant because he was a negro. This wonderful human being played a massive part in dragging the US out of the Stone Age (still some way to go), he showed how threadbare the alleged morality of the Vietnam war was, and, eventually, he showed how we can all be brothers and sisters regardless of colour and creed. Not bad for a black lad from a racist town. I'm not going to hear any criticism or demurring right now. Not the time, and certainly not from anyone who is nowhere near as good a human being as he was.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:59 PM

Agreed, on the "not the time".

Thinking about Ali, I remember what my parents told me and how much I should appreciate how they did it. When I asked why people didn't like him, and why he went to jail, they just told me the basic, un-spun facts. He refused to go to Vietnam. He was cocky. I got to make up my own mind about what I thought of it. So even then, I found many reasons to respect him while understanding why he rubbed some folks the wrong way. I loved that smart-ass glee he exuded.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Tunesmith
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:15 AM

NOW IS THE TIME!!!!

Now, when the whole media are discussing his legacy!
If they keep calling him the greatest...without reply, how can that be right!

A big criticism I have of Ali is the amount of holding/grabbing that he was allowed to get away with.

If the refs had jumped on that more then he would have:

A) Been disqualified on lots of occasions
or/and
B) Lost a lot more fights.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 04:50 PM

Actually I agree with Jeri and Steve Shaw. A separate thread for analysis of the man's career, and a thread for eulogizing the man regardless of how he did or did not conduct himself in the boxing ring.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:18 PM

Well my dad, who's 92, got me to send a letter to The Guardian today (Dad doesn't do email or Internet). It could be in tomorrow, but I very much doubt it. My dad agreed with the Guardian supplement that Ali was a great man, a great sportsman and a great spokesman for his people, but he did not agree that Ali was the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano had 49 fights and won every one of them, 43 by knockouts. I sent the letter but didn't quite agree. Ali was disqualified from fighting for three years when he was in his absolute prime. He went on fighting for far too long, which tarnished his record. But he beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman, three of the mightiest fighters ever, and he did it by guile and consummate skill. I don't think Rocky was really ever up against that kind of opposition. Marciano was a legend, but Ali was a legend and a lot more.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:39 AM

Ali changed me, my family, my neighborhood, my nation and beyond.

On the night of the big fight all the dads on our street got together.
They never assembled for anything before and never did since.
Unfortunately everyone but my dad bet against Clay and the fight was over in minutes.

During the Viet Nam war I followed Ali's lead politically.
While I did not follow the religious path even his strategy of rope a dope had its meaning in a larger world.

His humorous accusations were priceless. His career reformed boxing as a sport, racism, politics and war.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:54 AM

Somehow I'd missed this story about the Champ.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 01:24 PM

Years ago, when I still watched television, I saw more than one episode of "Touched By An Angel." Muhammad Ali turned up as a guest on one such episode; they put him in the story narrative somehow or other. But the man could not SPEAK. Literally could not speak. He stood there in front of the camera with the other actors, and one of the angels, Della Reese no less, would listen to his non-verbal, unintelligible murmurings, very soft and low; then she would go through the motions of "interpretation" with his "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" verses. It was all supposed to be very reverential or something. I remember wondering sadly if he had remembered to take his medications. That memory is creepy.

---

YouTube clip here -Mod This is an obituary thread. If you want a debate, please start a different one.

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 01:01 PM

If anyone here reads the Guardian, that's my 92-year-old dad's letter in there! He made it after all. I did check his facts...😉

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 07:21 PM

Billy Crystal gave a wonderful tribute to Ali toward the end of the 3-hour memorial service. I can't find his tribute from today, but here's a tribute called "15 Rounds" that Crystal did on Ali's retirement in 1979:

https://vimeo.com/169300354

Found it: Here's a link to the memorial service tribute from Crystal later. It was very funny, and very moving. Take the time to watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go2kSgiuR3c

Here's a tribute Crystal wrote for USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/boxing/2016/06/04/muhammad-ali-billy-crystal-essay/85373424/

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 02:49 AM

Greatly regret didn't see your father's letter, Steve. I used to take both Times & Guardian, but had to draw in horns to an extent and Gdn was, with regret, the one which went. Any chance of your copying it here, as should love to read it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 03:54 AM

I don't think Ali really became "The Greatest" until the second half of his life, after he was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease in 1984. He continued to live his life with dignity and courage, courage that surpassed that of all other boxers who might be contenders for "The Greatest." At the memorial service, Bill Clinton gave a moving description of how Ali had to struggle to light the cauldron at the beginning of the 1996 Olympics:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/bill-clinton-recalls-muhammad-alis-final-steps-light/story?id=39764535

Subject: RE: Obit: Muhammad Ali (1942-2016)
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 12:06 PM

Serving others is the rent you pay for your room on Earth.
M.A.