BS: It's time Bernie

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:47 PM

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run...

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:39 PM

In the game of politics, people get despised for being realistic. And yes, I think there are a good number of Bernie supporters who despise him right now. Ralph Nader stuck to his guns, and so we got eight years of George W. Bush. To my mind, Bernie played the game right, and showed real wisdom in his decisions. He held on until the end, gaining important concessions in the platform and in convention rules. And he bowed out graciously, still holding firm to the ideals he supported through his campaign. As a result, I think Bernie will have a strong, positive, and long-lasting effect on the Clinton presidency.

Bernie did it right.

What did Ralph Nader accomplish?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 10:03 AM

Hillary's legacy will be:
She did everything she needed to do.


Yes indeed Airymouse, the time for third party options is over.

In 4 years Bernie will have more insight into how to maneuver in ways that helped Hillary this time around.

Bernie Sanders / Robert Reich 2020.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 09:40 AM

It's unfair to blame Sanders for selling out. Suppose he had accepted Jill Stein's offer to make him the nominee of the Green Party. He would have had no way to get on the ballot in nearly 3/4 of the states, so he couldn't have won. If there were no winner, the Republicans, who control congress, would pick Trump. But I'm hoping Sanders supporters will rid the party of Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the other cheaters. That is a campaign they can win. (If they can tolerate the abbreviation DWS, they can get a free "BYE DWS" sticker by contributing to her opponent, Tim Canova, in next month's primary.)

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 01:07 PM

Why does a discussion on abbreviations have any relevance to this thread?

Because the thread itself is no longer relevant, so why not have a friendly conversation? Bernie endorsed Hillary on July 12, and gave a very good endorsement speech at the Democratic National Convention on July 25. The convention thread is the relevant one right now.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:15 AM

The gratis a is pronounced both ways as in the a in ignoramus .
Which is correct I don't know.


The power of Bernie's example will grow.

I am upset by npr calling Hillary's legacy as scandalous.
Exactly what was she guilty of except being scandalized by people like Britebart and Trent Lott?

Travel gate - she hired a new travel agency.
gate gate
white water gate
beef gate
email
Bengazi

Nixon crimes today would be considered small potatos compared to W and Trump if given the chance..

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 09:39 AM

I agree with the last post by McGrath. ( I am hoping the "Mc" is not an abbreviation.) My view is that the upcoming election is possibly a choice between good and evil, and it is certainly a choice between something better than evil and evil. I think that some members of the Democratic National Committee, including its chairman, have behaved badly,that this bad behavior has been damaging, and that it would be a mistake for the nominee of the party to connive at this bad behavior. AS for the distractions, I hated civics class and so haven't a clue about the relationship between the Democratic Party and its committee. I liked English though and was pretty careful to check up on the pronunciations of words I encountered for the first time. The language changes, but mostly my strange pronunciations were at one time correct. I don't think I have ever spoken "gratia" (GRAY shi uh) but I have said "incognito" (in COG ni toe) and "caveat" (CAVE E ot), and I have found that hardly anyone is happy with my way of saying these words.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:44 AM

Gratia can be either long A like Joe has it, or short A, depending where you come from. But never the other long A.

Bernie's nomination of Hillary was very neatly done.

Hillary will be as good as she's allowed to be, and made to be. FDR made a remark to that effect about his presidency, asking voters to strengthen him by forcing him.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:54 AM

Why does a discussion on abbreviations have any relevance to this thread? I think it is simply a device to derail a proper discussion which has been promoted by Airymouse.
lets get back to the nitty gritty, apparently there are thousands of protesters outside the conference venue who have been written out of the media coverage......and any opposition by Democrats inside has been virtually silenced.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 11:44 PM

C'mon, Airymouse! Put me out of my misery?

If it ain't "grah-tsi-ah," what is it?

And, for that matter, what is the difference between the Democratic National Committee and the Democratic Party? Seems to me, that the Committee is the executive body of the party.

Am I wrong?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 10:20 PM

I always used DNC to stand for Democratic National Committee. I will try to spell out my meanings from now on. Part of the confusion derives from the Democratic National Committee's way of asking for contributions in a way that makes it seem that the contribution is to be to the Democratic Party.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:02 PM

I tend to use those abbreviations here because I've no idea what the proper terms are. I agree with Joe, it's better to use the proper words.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:30 PM

BTW, Airymouse, if it isn't "grah-tsi-ah," how do you say it?

Gray-tea-eh?

My objection, BTW, is to abbreviations that are not in common usage and are easily confused. You used RNC and DNC in reference to the party sometimes, and sometimes maybe to the National Committee, and sometimes to the National Convention. And thus, I was horribly confused, well nigh to the point of tears, or something.

-José-
SWAK

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 02:52 PM

I ain't - oh sorry, amn't- sure what Mike is talking about. As for "gratia," I was just working in "BTW," because I figured if you were bothered by "DWS" you wouldn't cotton ""BTW" either. In my book, The NBC Handbook of Pronunciation, it's fifty shades of gratia.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: mkebenn
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 01:36 PM

It ain't you, airymouse. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 01:36 PM

Long "a" as in "grate"? Or as in "Aaaaaah"?

"Gratia" has the latter, in my book: "grah-tsi-ah."

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 12:43 PM

I admit I was just being lazy and hoping that the meanings of my abbreviations would be clear from context.Anyway abbreviations are embedded in our language. Take "e.g." for example.



Who among us would ever write "exempli gratia?"
BTW, I would pronounce "gratia" with a long A.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 12:27 PM

I hate all these abbreviations. DNC, RNC, DWS, HTC. Makes it impossible to read European newspapers. Is the RNC the Republican National Committee, or the Republican National Convention? GOP (grand old party - Republicans) is a widely accepted name, but the others are gobbledygook.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

There was an honorable way for a member of the DNC to support Sanders or Clinton. For example, Tulsi Gabbard (Rep. from Hawaii) resigned from the DNC and then endorsed Sanders and campaigned for him. And there may have been members of the DNC who wished to support Clinton and resigned from the DNC to do so. I can't name one. Can anybody? Surely, both the DNC and RNC set up the rules to provide what they perceive as stability: closed primaries, winner-take-all states, super delegates. I think that when Florida's RNC primary was made winner-take-all, the party thought that Jeb! could take his own state. But please, there is a distinction between making the rules and breaking them. I am not a lawyer, but I like to think that the rules become a legally binding contract between the DNC, the RNC, and their donors.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: mkebenn
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 10:23 AM

gillymor(any relation to gillyweed?). Trump had no rules at all, and the GOP could not deal with that. Not sure that that looks bad on them thou. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM

Quite right McG, the GOP had more or less anointed Jeb Bush it's candidate and the RNC was working desperately to undercut Trump not so long ago. They just didn't get hacked as far as we know. Political parties are not government entities and basically make their own rules and have always attempted to install candidates whom they think have the best chance of winning and/or implementing the party platform. That said, as a Democrat I didn't care for the way the DNC conducted themselves regarding the Sanders campaign but it's time to move on. As Joe pointed out, several times, HRC won the popular vote by a substantial margin and the threat of a profoundly unqualified racist vulgarian becoming "Leader of the Free World" is just too much to stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM

Isn't it pretty certain that the Republican party elite wasn't doing all it could to scupper Trump? Unfortunately for the party, it didn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 02:40 AM

I agree with that analysis. Corruption is intrinsic to US politics? Well start electing candidates who have an interest in fairness.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 08:55 PM

Here is your argument (I think):If the process had been fair, the outcome would have been the same. Therefore, the process was fair or at least it doesn't make any difference if the process was unfair. But it does make a difference: the DNC has helped nominate Trump and has made his election more likely than it would have been had the DNC met its obligation to be impartial.
Did I expect DWS to be impartial? No.
Do I think Bush would have won a recount in Florida? No. I'm just giving you an outline of an argument the late Justice Scalia made. But take Scalia's hypothesis as given; the conclusion is still false because the argument is wrong. Whether or not the outcome was correct, it did make a difference that the court was unfair. As Justice Stevens put it," Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law."
Am I going to vote for Clinton? Yes. But I still believe that the DNC and its chairman, DWS, wronged, not just Sanders, but the Democratic Party and its nominee. Indeed, their dishonesty may yet have terrible consequences for us all.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 07:24 PM

Yup, Donuel -

Heck, I'm even still waiting for somebody to officially declare Gore the winner. It's the right thing to do.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:58 PM

Joe you are a patient man.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:27 PM

Doesn't fly, airymouse. Football is a game. If a team violates the rules of the game, it gets a penalty - maybe even loss of the game.

An election is a vote by the people. If there are violations of the rules, the violators should be penalized - but the winner should still be the one who got the most votes.

And if all the votes in Florida had been counted, Gore would have won. In fact, he had half a million votes more than Bush without the contested Florida votes, so I still can't see how it was fair that the victory was awarded to "W."


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:25 PM

Did anyone think for a moment that the DNC wouldn't be doing whatever it could to promote the establishment candidate and disadvantage the outsider?

I'd find it absolutely astonishing if that hadn't been happening. That kind of thing is surely intrinsic to party politics, in all countries.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Airymouse
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 06:06 PM

Hillary won the nomination with a majority of the popular votes, and Trump did not. That makes me think that the Democratic primary was fair.
Joe, let's try your logic on a couple of other events:
The New-England Patriots won the Super Bowl by a wide margin, so deflating the ball was fair.
If all the votes in Florida had been counted, Bush would have won, so it doesn't matter how the Supreme Court reached its 5-4 decision in Bush v. Gore.
The e-mails demonstrate that the DNC did not conduct a fair race. Those who contributed to the DNC were defrauded, because the DNC had a contractual obligation to be impartial. There is no way to know if Hillary Clinton would have won an honestly run race, but I think one thing is clear. The former chairman of the DNC, Debbie W. Schultz had only 6 debates, which were scheduled on weekends or at the same time as major sporting events. This deprived Sanders of the exposure he needed, but it also left a lot of dead air time, which the Republicans filled with debate upon debate and which Donald Trump artfully used for free publicity. DWS may or may not have got the nomination for HRC, but at least she gets part credit (or blame) for Trump's nomination, and possibly for his election.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 05:59 PM

I think we'll have to disagree on that, Ake. For the most part, the Democratic Primary was fair, but it had its faults.

To my mind, the problem with the Republican Primary was that it had too many candidates, which allowed a ludicrous candidate with a small plurality to come out ahead in a slate that had a number of reasonably credible candidates. There's an inherent unfairness in awarding the nomination to a candidate who had only a plurality. There has to be a better way to handle a large slate of candidates fairly.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 04:43 PM

It was a joke Joe, but the point is that the process was corrupt.
The Party is supposed to be neutral in the process, but these e mails prove beyond doubt that The Democratic Party wanted Clinton as Presidential candidate even though polls showed Mr Sanders figures against Mr Trump were better than Mrs Clinton's.
Why do you think that was the case?.....I can only presume that it was because Mrs Clinton was "of the establishment", the no change candidate.
If the process had been conducted in an even handed manner the result may have been completely different.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 04:09 PM

Ake, somebody's going to be able to find fault with every human endeavor. And yes, there were things about the Democratic primary that could have been improved. But Hillary got the clear majority of the vote, and she won the nomination.

In the Republican Primary, there were 31.1 million votes cast, and Donald Trump won 14.1 million. Not a majority, but he did win the nomination.

You can argue all sorts of fine points, but one fact remains: Hillary won the nomination with a majority of the popular votes, and Trump did not. That makes me think that the Democratic primary was fair. Can you say the same about the Republican primary?

The Democratic runner-up gave Hillary an honest endorsement. Ted Cruz wasn't able to do that for Trump, and with good reason.

So, WHICH primary was the curate's egg?

You're trolling, ake, and I suppose people could find fault with that. I think it gives the rest of us the opportunity to point out the truth. Thanks for the opportunity.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:54 PM

"For the most part the election was fair"

Just like the Curate's egg, eh Joe?    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:42 PM

I suppose one could question the "superdelegates" and other aspects of the primary process, but the primary election results still show that Hillary won the majority of votes and the majority of contests.
Votes: 16.8 million for Hillary, 13.1 million for Bernie. Contests won: 34 for Hillary and 23 for Bernie. (There were contests in Guam, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and the District of Columbia and a few odd groups, which is why there were more than 50 contests.)

Although some changes may have helped Bernie, it's clear that Hillary won the primary election. For the most part, the election was fair - and the shortcomings would not have made a difference. So, I'm with Sarah Silverman:

To the "Bernie or Bust" people: You're being ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

It may not be so dire.
A Bernie supporter who would vote for Trump would have to be a racist who misunderstood all of Bernie's platform.

Regarding Trump;
He smiles more and better than Hitler.
Trump's Mussolini smug smirk is less repulsive.
(if you can't say something nice...)

In the New Yorker magazine the article 'Trump's Boswell' is an interview of the ghost writer of The Art of the Deal.
He claims that Trump actually believes he himself wrote the book. "Nothing could be further rom the truth".

Gnu, very funny but I like Ventura's conspiracy TV show.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 03:21 PM

Stand by for Hillary to zag back to the right.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 09:45 AM

Senate Leader? If our friends to the south get it right.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 02:57 AM

Joe says that Bernie was a "good loser"...... but he was not a fair loser Joe. The process was corrupt and Bernie's followers have every right to be enraged.

First the Super Delegates fiasco, then the rigging by the Party....you couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 16 - 01:35 AM

I found myself misty-eyed at the end of Bernie's speech this evening, He ran a good campaign and brought a number of important issues to the national attention. And he brought his campaign to a good end and showed himself to be a good loser.

We haven't heard the end of him. I'm sure he'll play an important role in the next eight years, as will Elizabeth Warren. Progressive Democrats were well heard this year, and I think that will make a big difference.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM

The penny has finally dropped!
Bernies speech

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:54 PM

Apparently Bernie was booed by some of his own people when he addressed them on the importance of defeating Trump by voting Hillary.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 06:35 PM

"Jesse Ventura is even more of a joke than Trump." I disagree. He is an eloquent man of and for the people. He didn't get where he is by being a "dummy". Has he any chance? Not even a snowball's chance in hell. But he could shake things up... just like Bernie did and, hopefully, Bernie will continue to do so.

"Sanders and Warren are doing important work right where they are - and they can do the math regarding the possibility of winning back the senate. They need to stay put." Agreed. Either would make great Senate leaders. Sanders more so because of his long and prestigious record... touch and go on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 06:52 PM

"It's time Bernie"........stood as an Independent!

How can a man of principle support
These crooks

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:21 AM

Jesse Ventura is even more of a joke than Trump. He'd probably choose Hulk Hogan as his running mate.

Sanders and Warren are doing important work right where they are - and they can do the math regarding the possibility of winning back the senate. They need to stay put.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 01:59 AM

Thanks gnu, that's interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 05:30 PM

BTW... I have been saying this for near a year. If Sanders doesn't pull off the bait and switch at the DNC, Ventura will run on an independent ticket announced in August unless Sanders convinces him otherwise. 50/50 to me. Ventura is a force to be reckoned with.

But. Given the present, it looks like a done deal. Only hope could alter it. But, Bernie has accomplished an amazing amount so far. The coming days will be interesting... for the world. This ain't small potatoes.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 05:24 PM

Sanders and Warren are far too valuable in the Senate to be named a VP running mate. Neither would accept... nor be even considered by HRC.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, Boo - obviously an attack by rabid antisemites !!

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 02:58 PM

More dirty tricks from the DNC against Bernie.

From WikiLeaks:

One email from May shows CFO Brad Marshall suggesting that they use religion against a certain possible atheist with a Jewish heritage:

    From:[e-mail] To: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail] Date: 2016-05-05 03:31 Subject: No shit

    It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: It's time Bernie
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 02:29 PM

Does anyone think that Kaine was a good choice electorally?

Seems to me that either Mr Sanders or Mrs Warren would have garnered in more votes......perhaps they were to much of a threat to the Clinton agenda?