BS: Where Is The Outpouring?

Subject: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:27 AM

A valid question Indeed:


After Attacks on Muslims, Many Ask: Where Is the Outpouring?

By Anne Barnard, NY TIMES,    5 JULY, 2016

PARIS — In recent days, jihadists killed 41 people at Istanbul's bustling, shiny airport; 22 at a cafe in Bangladesh; and at least 250 celebrating the final days of Ramadan in Baghdad. Then the Islamic State attacked, again, with bombings in three cities in Saudi Arabia.

By Tuesday, Michel Kilo, a Syrian dissident, was leaning wearily over his coffee at a Left Bank cafe, wondering: Where was the global outrage? Where was the outpouring that came after the same terrorist groups unleashed horror in Brussels and here in Paris? In a supposedly globalized world, do nonwhites, non-Christians and non-Westerners count as fully human?

This is not the first time that the West seems to have shrugged off massacres in predominantly Muslim countries. But the relative indifference after so many deaths caused by the very groups that have plagued the West is more than a matter of hurt feelings.



Complete Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

I thought so too Greg. It's as you say, as if firstly, these people don't matter because they're 'only more of those Muslims' and secondly they live in countries where 'people are always being blown up.' I suppose it's ignorance and prejudice. It usually is.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 11:35 AM

The deadliest of the Saudi bombs killed four people.
The others just killed the bomber.

There has been much coverage of the Baghdad bombing, which targeted Shia Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM

Go peddle your crap somewhere else, Professor. Do you have to pollute EVERY thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 03:06 PM

What crap Greg?

Please tell us all how many were killed by the bombs in Saudi Arabia?

I have heard coverage of the bombings in Bangladesh and in Baghdad in western press and television. Seems as though in Bangladesh the Government is in denial of any external terrorist involvement and are using the bombings as a means of cracking down on opposition parties (Some 14,000 arrests in the last few months). The Baghdad bombing was reported as though it was unusual in terms of scale of attack - about 18 months ago ISIS were supposed to be about to march in to take over the entire country.

I think western media are a bit wary of commenting on the fact that most Muslims killed in terrorist attacks are killed by Muslims - something that has always been the case. In Muslim countries themselves if there is any sort of religious aspect then their press, not often free, cannot criticise such criticism being forbidden.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 04:05 PM

I can't see any legitimacy in what you have to say above, Keith. While it may be true that the number of deaths in Saudi Arabia was small,
What about all those other deaths listed in the first post? Your mention of only the Saudi deaths, is callous disregard of all the others who died.

I think there is no outpouring of sympathy because people don't know to blame. The Conventional Wisdom is that Islam is responsible for all the terrorism happening currently in the world. When the victims are Muslim, people don't know whom to blame. We need to learn how to form our language to express such things.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:31 PM

The Conventional Wisdom

I think you meant to say the conventional stupidity or the conventional Islamophobia, didn't you Joe?

"Wisdom" it sure as hell ain't.

I think there is no outpouring of sympathy because people don't know [who] to blame.

The one is hardly contingent upon the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:02 PM

No, Greg, I think that people can't possibly know what's going on in our world these days and why, so they don't know how to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:13 PM

No, Greg, I think that people can't possibly know what's going on in our world these days....

They can't possibly know what happened in Baghdad and Istanbul and Bangladesh???

Joe, are you feeling all right? I think you'd better see a doctor right away. Or possibly an alienist.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:49 AM

I read the article today in the New York Times and felt that it was headlined a little off-topic. I think there have been plenty of outpourings of sympathy, fear, and searching for origins.

There was a horrible example of what is purported to be ISIS terrorism in Bangladesh, hostages executed and some held and then freed by counter-terrorists. And retrospective analysis of those who could be coopted into the terrorism from upper/ middle class families in Bangladesh.
As for the mass explosions and killings in Iraq there has been an outpouring of fear and sympathy, not to mention hate for the Iraqi government which can't protect its people (which is the motivation of the terror in the first place) but I'm not aware of someone taking responsibility for it as yet.

What is going on is terror of the extremist on the non-extremist regardless of religion except that there is the additional wrinkle of sunni shia hate which harkens back to the kind of thing Europe experienced in the Thirty Years war.

I still remember the Taliban targetting kids in school in a systematic mass execution.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:59 AM

robomatic has found an admirable way of describing these events '...the terror of the extremist on the non-extremist regardless of religion...'
I think that sums it up beautifully.

While it's kind to illuminate public buildings with the national flag of the country concerned, light candles at street shrines and go about wearing placards such as 'I am Paris' or whatever, these are gestures not action. Expressing solidarity is encouraging to the beleaguered, but governments should be taking more trouble to get involved and finding a strong solution once and for all. The solutions available aren't pretty, but this just can't go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:59 AM

Joe,
What about all those other deaths listed in the first post?

The 4 incidents mentioned were Baghdad, Bangladesh, Istanbul and Saudi.

In UK all except Saudi had extensive coverage in the media, each being the lead story for a time.
The reporting was continued, with individual tributes to some victims of Baghdad presented.

Perhaps it was different in US.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:13 AM

In Bangladesh, most of the twenty murdered hostages were not Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:15 AM

there is a phenomenon of viewer fatigue. The well of outpour runs dry.

The reality of the need to earn a living and the baby's colic rather intrude and consume our time.

And the government are doing something, selectively, albeit the biggest targets, motivated by the refugee crisis.

The Muslim world have a problem on their hands. The terrorists (and their simpathisers) have hijacked their brand. Whatever is done with the problem has to involve some internal effective politics inside the brand.

And in the UK we have other agitators who need dealing with. Wear your safety pin at least!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM

The Muslim world have a problem on their hands. The terrorists (and their simpathisers) have hijacked their brand.

You raise an interesting point. Why is it that crazy people who happen to be Muslim are styled "Muslim Extremists" and/or "Muslim Terrorists"while crazy people who happen to be Christians ( and who can match or exceed their Muslim counterpartsatrocity for atrocity) are not styled "Christian Extremists"?

The terorists haven't "hijacked" the Muslim's "brand"; rather Muslims as a whole have had the "terrorist" brand thrust upon them, and the problem is more with the "Christian"[sic] West who have done the thrusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:22 AM

In UK we refer to them as Islamists rather than Muslim extremists, so we would have to say "christianists" for all those others.
I can see no objection to either.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:30 AM

I suppose "buddhistist" would sound silly.
How strange that no-one has considered names for other religious terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:47 AM

Professor, see 06 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM above.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 11:41 AM

Oddly enough I cannot think of any "Christian" terrorist group in the world who have a stated aim of creating their own empire were everyone living in it must convert to one particular brand of Christianity and agree to live under "Old Testament" religious courts as the only form of law.

Can't think of any other "religious" terrorist groups either apart from the various Islamic ones, who have been plaguing the world for the last 45 years.

Other terrorist organisations do exist of course but their aims and motives tend to be political and/or secular.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 11:58 AM

yeah, we minded when the moslem victims were white, that's why we went into Kosovo.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:41 PM

You got that right, Mr. T - you can't think.

Moving right along......

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:40 PM

Not even the Dominicans?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:15 PM

Last year almost to the day Saudi Arabia suffered a crane collapse and stampede killing over three hundred pilgrims who came to orbit the sacred meteor in Mecca.
Forgot?

C'est a'vie c'est l'mort.

Does the Saudi Kingdom deserve empathy? Is empathy earned?

It appears that mass deaths by intention or accident is met with a callous hand and forgetful conscience, particularly when it is reported in the middle east.

Numbers, lives, money, which is more meaningful?

Names like Bho-Pol, WTC, Dresden all have versions of villains and victims. I believe our collective feeling of empathy is sickened by exhaustion.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:54 PM

An article in the Atlantic offers a great overview of the philosophy and theology that drives ISIS. In brief, ISIS is based on the belief that Muslims must establish a caliphate, a pure Islamic state where Sharia is fully implemented. The group declared themselves a worldwide caliphate, with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the caliph.

What ISIS Really Wants: The Atlantic

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:55 PM

Damned sight better than you Greg F - damned sight better than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:41 PM

That article was extremely informative bobad. Thank you for posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:00 PM

Boo- what the fuck has an ISIS manifesto got to do with sympathy for the Muslim victims of terrorism? You really are an ugly piece of work.

And it also has nothing to do with 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM , above.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:13 PM

Now, now, there T-Bird - getting a tad tetchy, are we? "Can dish it out but can't take it" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:30 PM

If by 'Boo' you mean bobad Greg F, his article was interesting in that it explains the different factions among the jihadis, and isn't merely about an ISIS manifesto. It's relevant because Muslims are being attacked by Muslims, and we need to understand the mindset of each group in order to come to an informed conclusion. This is important for those who lump all Muslims together and condemn the lot. If people realised this, that innocent non-extremist Muslims are dying in terrorist actions, they might 'outpour' rather more feelingly.

And may I say that I find your posts very unpleasant. Do you need to be quite so vehement?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:34 PM

Thank you Senoufou. Too many people blow their horns from a position of ideology without bothering to inform themselves of the facts as witnessed by some of the posts on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 06:57 PM

And it also has nothing to do with 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM , above.

As much as your head is buried deep in the sand of denial it has everything to with 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM , above. Read it and educate yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 07:59 AM

while crazy people who happen to be Christians ( and who can match or exceed their Muslim counterpartsatrocity for atrocity) are not styled "Christian Extremists"?

How soon we forget the sectarian dived that still lingers in Northern Ireland. The divide is along religious lines, and you can't say the agitators aren't using it as an excuse.

IS most definitely uses religion and enforces is wherever they are in ascendency. The clue is in the name IS. And what is the definition of a caliphate?

If claiming to be a religious movement and impressing it on anyone who they meet by means of force is not a highjack then please publish your dictionary.

BTW extremes (dracaonian if not violent) of religion are called fundamentalist and the word has been used on Hebredian Protestant communities, and even gun toting individuals of the Jewish community in Israel. Mind you I can't imagine a fundamentalist Buddhist..........

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:41 AM

If claiming to be a religious movement and impressing it on anyone who they meet by means of force

Rather like the "Christians"[sic] who bomb abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who perform abortions, all in the name of Jesus, perhaps???

If people realised this, that innocent non-extremist Muslims are dying in terrorist actions

Anyone who doesn't realize this in the face recent events which have been extensively reported (recourse to explainations of the different factions among the jihadis being beside entirely the point) is an absolute idiot.

Do you need to be quite so vehement?

In the case of BooIslamaphobeBad, absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:03 AM

Anything actively 'extremist' is dangerous and toxic to society. There are many extreme types of religion, and some of them are determined to impose their ways on the rest of us. I often wonder why people can't just believe in their God and get on with it peaceably (many do of course)
Greg, you may be surprised to discover just how many ignorant (and yes, possibly stupid) people lump all Muslims together and don't see the differences between terrorists and a myriad of other less extreme groups of Muslims. My husband feels he has to be very careful not to disclose he is a Muslim in some circles, and has even shortened his first name to something not obviously Islamic.
Perhaps it's where we live, but I don't think many folk around here have a clue about who is who in the Muslim world. I have been approached in Tesco's of all places, by a very fundamentalist Muslim couple who actually told me that as a Christian I was contaminating my husband by being his wife and should take the veil immediately and join the gang. (The husband had met mine at the gym) My neighbour thought this was 'normal' and 'what could you expect from the lot of 'em?' This is probably why there is scant 'outpouring' for the massacred victims of Muslim extremist terrorists in Nigeria, Istanbul, Baghdad etc etc.
I don't personally think being vehement, no matter towards whom, will help anyone to understand one's point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 10:02 AM

Greg, must you pollute every thread with your displays of ignorance?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:21 AM

the sectarian dived that still lingers in Northern Ireland. The divide is along religious lines

No it is not. That is just convenient labels.
The dispute is political, one side wanting union with the Republic and the other union with UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 09:51 AM

Greg, you may be surprised to discover just how many ignorant (and yes, possibly stupid) people lump all Muslims together and don't see the differences between terrorists and a myriad of other less extreme groups of Muslims.

I'm not surprised at all at the level of ignorance: horrified, disgusted, appalled, annoyed perhaps, but hardly surprised, especially when there are folks like Boo and The Trumpshit and Farage et.al. mindlessly whipping up Islamophobia.

However, this still doesn't explain why "Christian"[sic] terrorism hasn't tarred all Christians as terrorists.



You're likely correct - but in Boo's case absolutely nothing will budge him from his point of view, least of all facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:08 PM

It makes sense to me Keith.

bobad, I think you see more blatant anti-Semitism than there is.
Of course it is real, I'm suggesting it may be bigger in your eyes.

Lets hope we all contaminate each other with cultural differences and enjoy what commonalities we can and ignore all that does not help solve problems, even if we have to swallow hard sometimes.

In any conflict a pathology probably exists on both sides, otherwise the conflict would expire.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 03:51 PM

the divide along religious lines

According to the daughter of a Northern Ireland MP before the "troubles" the sections of the community mixed amicably. Once the politicians fomented trouble it revealed itself as a religious divide. She lived it.

You only have to hear the news to this week it happened between Sunni & Shiite in Iraq, Saddam Hussein only kept it bottled up with fear and killing.

And football tribalism hasn't gone away entirely. It is human nature, the price of freedom.

It is just that it seems far more prevalent these days. Social media hasn't reduced it, as we thought it would, it has deepened divides.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:42 PM

Social media, isn't. Puts me in mind of Voltaire on the Holy Roman Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 04:11 AM

Neither the GFA nor any previous negotiations dealt with religious issues.
It was all about governance.

None of the stated aims and objectives of PIRA or any other paramilitaries were religious.
It was all about governance.

Religion is just a convenient way to label the two communities, which are distinct for more fundamental reasons than religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:24 PM

Joe Offer is a

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 11:55 AM

"there are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings. I am not aware of any Christian suicide bombers. I am not aware of any major Christian organisation that believes the penalty for apostasy is death. I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might e a bulwark against something far worse".       Richard Dawkins.    The times 2:4:10 .

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:07 PM

there are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings.

I guess Dawkins never heard of the numerous "Christians"[sic] who have blown up abortion clinics.

I am not aware of any major Christian organisation that believes the penalty for apostasy is death

Guess he's never heard of the numerous "Christian" anti-abortion organizations and/or the "Christian"[sic] members thereof who have murdered abortion providers.

Christianity might be a bulwark against something far worse.

And that "something" would be...?

Nice try, pete. Guess again.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:08 PM

Oh, and pete- you quoting Dawkins is absoluteky hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:47 PM

Well, Pete, Dawkins is well known for regarding Christianity as a more benign form of idiocy than Islam, but he still regards it as a form of idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 08:11 AM

Want to fight ISIS? You've got to start by recognizing what it really is: part of a worldwide campaign to impose a religion by gunpoint.

Maajid Nawaz is not afraid to call radical Islam what it is: A toxic culture that puts the entire world at risk—peaceful Muslims included. And Nawaz would know. He spent 15 years recruiting people to radical Islam, and five years in an Egyptian prison. After discovering secular liberalism, Nawaz wants to help bring down ISIS. But first, he has to convince the leading countries in the war against terror that they're doing almost everything wrong.

The best speech you will ever hear from a former Islamic terrorist recruiter

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 11:43 AM

Your Israeli video won't play, Boo. Ya got this written out somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUra13sGqk4

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 05:06 PM

Thanks, Boo.

Now check THIS out.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:52 PM

If you're going to Google for opponents of Maajid Nawaz you can surely do better that Nathan Lean, a Saudi funded, unhinged apologist for Islamism who sees Islamophobes under every bed (sound familiar?)

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:58 PM

Nawaz is a dishonest opportunist. It's hardly surprising that you of all people should find yourself in his camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 08:15 PM

Not "opponents" of your man, Boo - just the rest of the story. I'm not willing to embrace him him uncritically, as you are.

By the way:

There is a tendency to jump to the “terrorism label” when a Muslim commits an act of violence, an assumption that Muslims are “only motivated by some twisted interpretation of Islam rather than a host of personal and social factors,” according to Patel.

“Because Muslim violence is described as part of a broader ideological frame, it both heightens the perception of the threat ‘Islam is waging a war against the West’ and makes it easier to place blame on all Muslims. In contrast, non-Muslim shooters are more often described as individuals with mental or social problems not part of some broader movement, although their beliefs too are often explored in the press,” she said.

“I am afraid that a Muslim name makes it much easier for Americans to apply the label ‘terrorism’ to violent actions. But needless to say, Muslims are just like everyone else. They have all kinds of reasons for what they do. Terrorism is one; but we should try to remember that terrorism was not invented by Muslims,” Lakoff said. “We are much too likely to think of Muslims as prototypical ‘terrorists’ while homegrown Christian types who misbehave in analogous ways are just individuals not acting out of political motives. Wrong, of course.”

“In my view, the solution isn't to call more things terrorism, but to get away from the politics of that label. We should evaluate, and respond to threats based on actual attacks, capacity and seriousness of intent,” Patel said. “Not on perceptions about a particular religion or racial or ethnic group.”

Continues at
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=40488653

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 07:47 AM

Nawaz is a dishonest opportunist. It's hardly surprising that you of all people should find yourself in his camp.

He's a fierce opponent of Islamist extremism and the one who coined the apt descriptive "regressive Left". It's hardly surprising that you would be critical of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:22 AM

Boo- re-read the article @ 12 Jul 16 - 05:06 PM, this time for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:24 PM

Glad quoting Dawkins gives you a laugh. I found it strangely funny too. But quoting hostile witnesses is sometimes more apt . And of course , if I quoted a Christian you would say it was biased. Being a uk resident I don't get to hear about all these Christian terrorist organisations strapping bombs to themselves and shouting Jesus words as they blow themselves up in abortion business places. In fact, I think we are rather lacking in them. How many times , say , every year, does it happen over there? You must be continually in fear of your life , being infidels, being as there are so many Christians over there ...some of them might be terrorists eh !

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 05:49 AM

Comparing how many terrorists the perverted factions of religions can throw up is hardly a reflection of the mainstream. What could be a little more disturbing is that the people who harass women at abortion clinics (it's CLINICS, Pete) see themselves as mainstream and are seen by many Christians as mainstream. I think the difference between a typical Muslim and an Islamic terrorist is a little sharper. However, if I were absolutely forced to be religious by some decree, I'd choose Christianity (not martyrdom) any day. I think Richard Dawkins would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 07:13 AM

I'm rather drawn to Wicca myself. All that appreciation of wildlife, Mother Nature, the trees and plants, a bit like Animism. You don't often hear of Wiccan terrorists do you? And imagine dancing about naked on Midsummer's Eve. Er, wait....perhaps not....

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 03:18 PM

see themselves as mainstream and are seen by many Christians as mainstream.

Can you substantiate your latest wild assertion Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 04:55 PM

Just prove me wrong, Keith, if you can. You know I don't play your stupid games.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:50 AM

A Christian myself, I am aware of no evidence at all that they "see themselves as mainstream and are seen by many Christians as mainstream."

Clearly you are not either or you would have mentioned it.
It is just your latest wild and baseless assertion Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 06:09 AM

Not an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 06:44 AM

They must be fundamentalist Christians then, who'd have thought it that the Christian church could be so represented eh tut tut

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 08:50 AM

A Christian myself, I am aware of no evidence

Ah, but then as a "Christian"[sic] you NEED no evidence, Professor, as you have amply demonstrated.

Educate yourself about the Anti-Abortion "Christians"[sic] in the U.S. before making a fool of yourself yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 09:31 AM

I know about them Greg.
Steve claimed that they " are seen by many Christians as mainstream" but they are not.
He made that up.
Nor can they possibly imagine that their views are mainstream when so few follow them.
He made that up too.

as a "Christian"[sic] you NEED no evidence, Professor, as you have amply demonstrated.

How could I demonstrate anything so nonsensical Greg?
You made that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 10:27 AM

they " are seen by many Christians as mainstream" but they are not.

As I said, Educate yourself, Profesor. If you can state the above nonsense, you're obviously ignorant of the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 10:35 AM

Duh .............. you believe in a God but you have no evidence.

Belief perhaps .............. Evidence ............... er No.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 10:42 AM

Greg,
As I said, Educate yourself, Profesor. If you can state the above nonsense,...

It is not nonsense. They are not seen by many Christians as mainsteam. I would know if it was true, but it is not.
That is why neither you nor Steve can support that ridiculous assertion.
It is made up bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 10:44 AM

Rag,
Duh!
We are not talking about belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

I should like to point out to Keith that I did not refer to the murderous types who kill doctors, assault women or damage the clinics. I said the people who harass women at abortion clinics. That's the aggressive shouters and the placard-wavers and the faux-prayerful hectorers. I don't think they have the moral right to do any of that, whatever the law says. They are seen as mainstream by many Christians, as doing the right thing in opposing abortion in that manner. They are actually out to intimidate, if not terrorise, vulnerable women. I think that people who oppose abortion are utterly misguided, but that they are entitled to express themselves in peaceful and non-confrontational ways that don't attack or intimidate individual women or doctors. That's what I would call mainstream. What would you call mainstream, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 11:10 AM


I should like to point out to Keith that I did not refer to the murderous types who kill doctors, assault women or damage the clinics.
The rest of us, including Greg, were talking about terrorists.

Do you have anything to support your wild assertion that "the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians as mainstream."

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 11:47 AM

Prove I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:25 PM

A Christian myself, I am aware of no evidence at all that they "are seen by many Christians as mainstream."

Clearly you are not either, or you would have mentioned it.
It is just your latest wild and baseless assertion Steve.

You have made an assertion without being able to offer anything in support of it, because it is just made up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:54 PM

I am aware of no evidence at all

Of course you're not, as you haven't looked! I suppose you think that the Roman Catholic Church and the members thereof aren't "mainstream"?

Gimmie shelter.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 06:24 PM

"I am aware of no evidence at all" is weasel words. Your assertion that my "assertion" is wildly "made up shit" (one of your many silly expressions) either requires evidence or requires dumping. You see, Keith? I'm so much kinder about your nonsense than you are about my nonsense! It's the kind of guy I am...??

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:36 AM

Steve Shaw - 15 Jul 16 - 11:47 AM

Prove I'm wrong.

Numbers give a good indication.

The fact that in a country that at the time described it's State religion as being Christian abortion laws were passed is another good indication.

Having never witnessed masses of these "mainstream" Christians yelling and obstructing pavements and hindering innocent passers-by in the vicinity of any hospital or clinic providing these services is yet another good indication.

Never ever knew you had to be a Christian, or indeed religious in any sense, to voice an opinion on the value of human life.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:38 AM

It would be difficult to determine what a mainstream Christian is these days. But I am sure Christians generally are opposed to abortion , but non violently. Educating the public though, as to what abortion actually is , and how it is performed is not in my opinion harassment .

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM

Steve,
Your assertion that my "assertion" is wildly "made up shit" (one of your many silly expressions) either requires evidence or requires dumping
The evidence is in your posts, and your inability to substantiate what you claim.

Your assertion that "the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians as mainstream." either requires evidence or requires dumping.

A personal, bigoted and prejudiced opinion based on no actual knowledge whatsoever, is worthless and has no place in serious discussion.
In this case it is an unwarranted slur against Christians and reveals your prejudice and Christianophobia.

Greg,
Of course you're not, as you haven't looked!

I have, but I hardly need to as I am an active member of a large Christian community and I would know if Steve's slur against Christians was true.
I note that you also provide nothing whatsoever that supports his claim.
How could you? It is just made up shit.
Will you provide something Greg?
No. Just more personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 04:49 AM

Hmmmmmm Some people seem to be able NOT to see whatever they wish not to see.


Abortion Clinic Protests

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:14 AM

Rag, your link is just pictures of anti-abortion demonstrators.
What point is that supposed to make, and what is it that "some people seem be able NOT to see?"

Do you have any evidence to support Steve's false claim?
No.
Neither does he and neither does Greg because it is just made up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM

Are you and Teribus suggesting that most of the people who harass women at abortion clinics are not Christians? Including the ones who are dressing up as joke penguins, carrying crucifix placards or dangling pairs of rosary beads? Teribus, kindly refrain from distorting what I said. I didn't say masses of Christians in the streets, did I. I said that many Christians regard these protesters as mainstream Christians (as opposed to extremists). If I'm wrong, prove it by showing me that mainstream Christianity firmly rejects these horrid people. Show me the Christian outrage, please. I haven't seen much of it. I propose that very large numbers of Catholics in particular are sympathetic to these aggressive people even though they wouldn't necessarily join them outside the clinics. If I'm wrong, show me the Church distancing itself. It's perfectly possible to protest against abortion, wrong-headed though that is, without intimidating individual vulnerable women (behaviour that is as unchristian as could be imagined). I'm open to persuasion, given the evidence rather than your Christian indignation.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:52 AM

My post was in response to Teribus's assertion that he didn't know of masses of "mainstream" Christians yelling and blocking pavements etc etc.

Unless of course these people are not mainstream Christians and are in fact Radical Fundamentalist Christians.

As for Steve and Greg I'm quite sure they don't need my help.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM

It's always welcome, Raggytash!

"Educating the public though, as to what abortion actually is , and how it is performed is not in my opinion harassment ."

Of course. But standing outside a clinic picketing individual women when they at their most vulnerable with posters showing scenes of violence, chanting slogans and having to be held back from carrying out physical intimidation has nothing to do with education. I'm absolutely in favour of everyone knowing what abortion involves and how it's done. It's a good bet that the women going into the clinic already know it and that a baying mob will do nothing at all to improve their education.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:55 AM

Steve Shaw - 16 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM

Are you and Teribus suggesting that most of the people who harass women at abortion clinics are not Christians?"

Don't know, couldn't say, I've never seen any, so I have never talked to any, Have you? If you haven't then you can make no claims about them on behalf of others.

"I said that many Christians regard these protesters as mainstream Christians (as opposed to extremists)."

When did you commission and conduct this survey? How many Christians of what different persuasions were included in your sample group? Or did you just ask every Christian in the country? Of course you did none of these things, Keith A is perfectly correct you just made it up. As you made the statement it is up to you to substantiate your claim - You won't of course, because...... it's made-up-shit.

"It's perfectly possible to protest against abortion, wrong-headed though that is, without intimidating individual vulnerable women."

Of course it is perfectly possible and I would suspect a lot more common than the aggressive form of demonstrations and actions you are describing, or we would hear about them being reported in local, regional and national news. Off hand I cannot remember ever reading about any violent protests concerning any NHS BPAS Clinic. Many of these Clinics been blown up in the UK? No? Thought not.

If you think it is "wrong headed" that is your opinion not a fact, you are perfectly entitled to it but you have no right whatsoever to impose your opinions on anyone else.

"I'm open to persuasion, given the evidence rather than your Christian indignation."

No you are not, a man less likely to be open to persuasion I could not imagine. My Christian indignation?? How do you know that I am a Christian? Practicing, lapsed or otherwise - fact is you don't.

As far as evidence goes as previously stated:

1) No survey carried out to back up your claims
2) No coverage in the media related to all these violent protests you claim occur on a regular if not a daily basis
3) The NHS provides a perfectly legal Abortion Service available to all - if Christians generally regarded abortion to be against their beliefs then the law would never have been passed. In the Republic of Ireland (A Catholic Country I've heard tell) you even have the The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 which came into force on the 1st January 2014 as a direct result of a visitor to the country dying because Doctors there would not abort the woman's baby which was miscarrying in order to save her life.

"Savita Halappanavar, 31, was 17 weeks pregnant when she developed back pain and tests revealed that she would lose her baby.


But despite her repeated pleas over three days, doctors refused to perform a termination as they could still hear the foetus's heartbeat, reportedly telling her: "This is a Catholic country."


Mrs Halappanavar's condition rapidly deteriorated and she died after developing septicaemia four days after the death of her baby."

Five things contributed to the death of this lady:

1: Stupidity
2: Total negligence and failure to follow the Hippocratic Oath supposedly sworn by ALL QUALIFIED DOCTORS
3: Cowardice
4: Total failure of application of common sense
5: Religion used as an excuse to cover the four above.


Raggytash - 16 Jul 16 - 07:52 AM

My post was in response to Teribus's assertion that he didn't know of masses of "mainstream" Christians yelling and blocking pavements etc etc.

So in an attempt to disprove what I said, which was perfectly true by the way, you supply a link to Anti-Abortion Protesters in the USA????

Care to enlighten me as to how and when I must have naturally come across such scenes Raggy and felt I had to lie about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 10:35 AM

Having never witnessed masses of these "mainstream" Christians yelling and obstructing pavements and hindering innocent passers-by

So if you haint seed it personally, it don't exist eh, T-Bird?

Idiot.

Professor: "Is Too!" "Is Not!" "Is Too!" "Is Not!" "Is Too!" "Is Not!" "Is Too!" "Is Not!"

I've no intention to playing your schoolyard five-year-old game.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM

FORTUNATELY, no one is going to follow Newt Gingrich’s unconstitutional and un-American plan for an inquisition to “test every person here who is of a Muslim background” and deport the ones who “believe in Shariah.”

Muslims have a wide range of different beliefs about what Shariah requires in practice. And all agree that humans are imperfect interpreters of God’s will. But to ask a faithful Muslim if he or she “believes in” Shariah is essentially to ask if he or she accepts God’s word. In effect, Mr. Gingrich was proposing to deport all Muslims who consider themselves religious believers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/17/opinion/sunday/a-lesson-for-newt-gingrich-what-shariah-is-and-isnt.html

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 11:57 AM

" Care to enlighten me as to how and when I must have naturally come across such scenes Raggy and felt I had to lie about it?"

Quite amazing really, a man who professes to know so much about Scandinavian housing, France during WW1, Ireland in the early 20th century, modern politics etcetera, etcetera has somehow missed the numerous occasions when these protestors have been reported on national television in the UK.

It's even been commented on frequently enough on this web site.

None so blind as those who will not see. In answer to your last phrase, yes I think you are lying and in order not to show you're lying make the claim you have never seen these things.

For the future, anyone with an ounce of intelligence (I know you are touchy about your lack of education) would try and find out more information before making such crass remarks as you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM

If every assertion you made, Teribus, had to be subjected to a "survey," you'd have surveys coming out of your earholes. All too often you regale us with not so much with unsupported "information" but with your tortuous twisted take on things. Now where did I mention the NHS or BPAS clinics, or, indeed, the UK at all? Where did I mention hordes of Christians on the streets? Where did I accuse you of being a Christian? Where did I mention violent protests? I confined my remarks to people harassing women with crucifix placards and rosary beads and penguin suits (by the way, do I really need to "survey" such people to check that they're really Christians and not dressed-up Buddhists?) Where did I say that anti-abortionists aren't entitled to their opinions (I've actually said the opposite of that twice in this thread!)

And the irony bypass you must have gone through, you, of all people, to be able to say this:

"a man less likely to be open to persuasion [meaning yours truly] I could not imagine."

Stunning!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 02:18 PM

A with too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 02:42 PM

"somehow missed the numerous occasions when these protestors have been reported on national television in the UK."

Yet somehow numbnuts you fail to provide us with an example of the "numerous" and had they been so self-evident then I would have assumed that you would have supplied a link of Anti-Abortion Protesters in the UK - BUT YOU DIDN'T DID YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:01 PM

Steve,
Your assertion that "the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians as mainstream." either requires evidence or requires dumping.

Do you have any knowledge at all that supports that claim, or is it just a whim based on prejudice against Christians and ignorance?
How about you Rag and Greg?


A personal, bigoted and prejudiced opinion based on no actual knowledge whatsoever, is worthless and has no place in serious discussion.
In this case it is an unwarranted slur against Christians and reveals your prejudice and Christianophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:09 PM

Steve,
Are you and Teribus suggesting that most of the people who harass women at abortion clinics are not Christians?

No question that the ones in America do mostly call themselves Christians, albeit they are a tiny fraction of one percent of American Christians.

Your claim that "the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians as mainstream" is based on what Steve, or did you just make it up??

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:41 PM

I asked you to show me the Christian outrage at these people who you claim are not seen by other Christians as mainstream. You can't, because there is no Christian outrage. Just like there's no Christian outrage at centuries of Christian antisemitism and Islamophobia and witch-hunts and oppression of scientists and misogyny and child abuse...the odd half-hearted self-interested apology, of course...

Christianophobia? Too bloody right! Christiano Ronaldo was a jumped-up twat at Man U and Real Madrid haven't improved him much either!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:43 PM

And excuse the poetic spelling licence. All in the name of fun. By Christ, a bit of fun around here wouldn't come amiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:45 PM

He did just make it up Keith or he would have been back like a rocket.

Union activists and stalwarts always have to check back with whoever it is that tells them who to think whenever question by independent thinkers and people who really do challenge anything told them.

Steve Shaw - 16 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM

1: Most assertions I make are based on fact - you have stated in the past that you don't believe a word I say - so I give you enough information to check what I say out yourself - trouble is you never do.

2: I live on the Eastern side of the Atlantic, you know that full well. So whose Abortion clinics are these Christian fundamentalists or Christian mainstreamers harassing? Must be in the UK or in Europe - Guess what PRAT I haven't come across a single one. So come on Shaw, get in touch via PM with Raggy and with Carroll and come up with at least one fact to back up your preposerous contentions, because so far you have absolutely nothing except your own bigoted bias against religions in general.

3: "Where did I mention hordes of Christians on the streets?

Please correct me if I am wrong here but you said that those harassing vulnerable women entering Abortion clinics were considered as mainstream Christians by the rest of the Christian community. Now logic and reasoning would lead me to believe that if those mainstream Christians are indeed harassing people going into Abortion Clinics then the only f**kin' place they could do it would be on the street outside the bloody clinic.

4: Where did I accuse you of being a Christian?

Again correct me if I am wrong but you did refer to MY CHRISTIAN INDIGNATION - DUH????

5: Where did I mention violent protests? I confined my remarks to people harassing women with crucifix placards and rosary beads and penguin suits (by the way, do I really need to "survey" such people to check that they're really Christians and not dressed-up Buddhists?)

Perhaps Steve you should do some Prison visiting you would learn that "harassment" is violence - possibly a concept not really familiar to a Union Activist totally unused to anyone challenging the "party line". As rto conducting the survey? Yes you do before you haave the complete and utter gall to speak on their behalf in such a manner as you have.

6: Where did I say that anti-abortionists aren't entitled to their opinions (I've actually said the opposite of that twice in this thread!)

You have also declared omnipotently from your self-appointed position on high as fact that those who took such views were "wrong headed".

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

Or would that be "by Crist..."

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 04:15 PM

the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians as mainstream.

So you don't consider Roman Catholics "mainstream" Christians[sic], Professor?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 05:16 PM

And yet these hypocrites have no compunction at running around bellowing "Islamophobe" at people. I am thoroughly enjoying the spectacle of Keith and Teribus kicking their Jew hating, jihadi apologist asses - keep it up boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 05:22 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:03 PM

Enter the Boo, with the regular Spew. Suppose I should be grateful he hasn't vomited all over this thread in the last few days. Brief Boo hiatus.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:13 PM

No need Greg, your and your fellow travelers' spew leaves little room.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:37 PM

You OK with bobad, Teribus? The archetypal forum cheat is on your side! Woo-hoo! You must feel very proud!

As I said, you are the master of twist and spin. Your last post is a total misrepresentation of everything I've said and I'm getting fed up of putting you right. You're a waste of space, you've had your day, old chap, and you're simply not worth spending any more time on. Have another vat of whatever you have vats of. Nighty night!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:49 PM

Yep, Teribus has them slinking off with their tails between their legs. Facts trump ideology every day of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:08 PM

The main "fact" is that you are a charlatan who cheated everyone on this forum, including the moderators (I have PMs from them to prove it) by posting under multiple secret identities, pretending that you needed anonymity in order that we might address the issue, not the man. Now that you're sussed, I see you still can't resist calling people Jew haters, exactly what you did for years under your cowardly false identity. No-one else here, even the most bigoted, has ever stooped so low as you did. It is very important that anyone reading your posts knows this, and I won't stop reminding people here about your dishonesty, your cowardice and your lying nature as long as I'm allowed to carry on doing so. I really hope that Keith eand Teribus are proud of their association with you. They must be over the moon.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM

Still the deranged obsessive I see, at least you are consistent.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:35 PM

Yes I'm consistent. Unlike you, I always post under my own real name and have never cheated this forum by pretending to be someone else. I'm consistently not a lying cheat like you are. You are a total disgrace and Christ only knows why the powers that be here put up with scumbags like you. Now yowu've had a damn sight more than you deserve from me already tonight and that's your lot. So why don't you just crawl back under your stone and fester in your stinking pile of self-inflicted dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:40 PM

And you're the prototypical bully who can dish it out but can't take it and who runs crying to the mods (and I have PM's from mods to prove it).

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:48 PM

No you haven't, you bloody liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:56 PM

Ah, ha ha....sweating now are we Stevie boy?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 08:16 PM

Nope. You're a bloody liar because not once in all my years on this forum have I ever moaned to the mods about being insulted/called a name/been misrepresented, nothing. Yes I got my teeth into you and finally got Joe Offer to find you out and concede that you were the anonymous Guest who revelled in calling us Jew-haters. You are very fortunate to be allowed to remain on this forum, which you bring into disrepute every time you post. In every other forum I've ever been on you'd have been booted off for dishonesty and multiple identitiues years ago. You have lied about your identity and you are lying about me whingeing to the mods. I know it, they know it, and, perhaps, they'd care to confirm it. They do feel a bit sorry for you, so they may not go public on that, but they will not contradict what I've said. I do all my arguing in public on this forum under my real name, always. You're the one getting all sweaty and heady every time you call people Jew-haters, because that's how trolls live their lives. Jaysus, I broke my pledge there not to speak to you again tonight. How lucky you are. Don't go having wet dreams now.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 08:17 PM

Say good-night, Boo- take your bullshit elsewhere.

Leave this thread to the sentient beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 08:37 PM

Cheers Greg. We really do have the twat among twats here, don't we. It's 1.30 am this end and I'm not as sentient as I was a couple of hours ago! The sack calleth...

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 08:39 PM

You are very fortunate to be allowed to remain on this forum

Sez you you sick, obsessive fuck. Unlike you I have never been threatened with suspension. And, as a matter of fact, I would take suspension as a badge of honour now that the forum has been taken over by the likes of you and your fellow travelers and has seen the departure of many fair minded, progressive members.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:03 PM

Oh dear, he's finally lost it! Well past your bedtime, young man. When you're in bed, as you have two identities, you'll be able to f... y....... Oh, never mind! We know what I mean! Nighty night!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:14 PM

I would take suspension as a badge of honour

Well, Boo, we can all hope that the mods will comply with your wishes.

And not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:27 PM

Oh dear, he's finally lost it!

Actually haven't lost anything, the only thing that has been lost here is the participation of the many Jewish members who have left in disgust at the direction the forum has taken now that it has become dominated by you and your fellow travelers on the regressive left. The paucity of threads in the BS section pretty much says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:36 PM

Multiple fail!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:50 PM

Multiple fail!

Lol!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 04:09 AM

Steve,
I asked you to show me the Christian outrage at these people who you claim are not seen by other Christians as mainstream. You can't,

Or atheists, Buddhists etc.
Silly! Much of the outrage comes from Christians.

"When seeing someone who is clearly religious – whether they're wearing indicators of their faith such as a clerical collar, a crucifix, a kippah, or even a t-shirt with a religious message on it – you might assume that person does not believe a woman should have access to compassionate abortion care, or comprehensive sexuality education, or even contraception.
RCRC is proof that you would likely be mistaken."
http://rcrc.org/homepage/about/

Greg,
So you don't consider Roman Catholics "mainstream" Christians[sic], Professor?

Of course they are!
Do you have any evidence that ""the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians (RC or other) as mainstream."

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 04:19 AM

So I'll ask the question for the THIRD time. If the Christians who hassle women at the clinics are not mainstream what are they.

Radical Fundamentalist Christians perhaps. Do tell us.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:24 AM

Raggytash - 17 Jul 16 - 04:19 AM

Raggy as you seem to trip over these people on what seems to be a daily basis why don't you ask them?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:28 AM

Why don't you or the professor answer the question that has been posed three times.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 10:17 AM

In the sense of believing the traditional teaching of scripture as to the sanctity of human life, I would think the protesters are mainstream. Where they are not so mainstream , is that the rest of us who also believe in the sanctity of life , and therefore oppose abortion in general, are less proactive. Whether that is a good thing I am not so sure.                   I am surprised this had,nt been closed by now. Other threads have been closed for a lot less abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 10:33 AM

I have nothing against protesters. All I'm saying is that standing outside a clinic picketing women or medical staff is improper behaviour and should be condemned by Christians and non-Christians alike. I don't see much of that condemnation. There are more civilised and more effective ways of getting your message across than sloganising at vulnerable people. Whatever you may think of the women and the doctors, they are morally entitled to go about their legal business without being confronted with placards, chanting and shouted abuse. And, if I may say so, it isn't very Christian to condone such bad behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:17 PM

the many Jewish members who have left

Name'em, Boo! And you and BeardedBS don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:19 PM

Do you have any evidence that ""the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians (RC or other) as mainstream."

Open your farkin'eyes, Professor. Check the archives of any major newspaper or news service for the last 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:04 AM

Greg,

Open your farkin'eyes, Professor. Check the archives of any major newspaper or news service for the last 10 years.

I can find nothing to support the claim that "the people who harass women at abortion clinics.....are seen by many Christians (RC or other) as mainstream."

Why will none of you who support the claim produce the evidence?
Because you can't!!

Steve,
All I'm saying is that standing outside a clinic picketing women or medical staff is improper behaviour and should be condemned by Christians and non-Christians alike

Not true Steve.
Your claim was about "people who harass women at abortion clinics."
Such behaviour IS "condemned by Christians and non-Christians alike."

Rag,

So I'll ask the question for the THIRD time. If the Christians who hassle women at the clinics are not mainstream what are they.

In my opinion their behaviour is unacceptable to Christians.
I would regard them as fringe extremists if Christian at all, and certainly not "mainstream" Christians.
My experience is that all the many Christians I know or have met would share that view.
I have come across nothing that would justify Steve's claim, and none of your little pack of supporters can find anything either because the claim is based on nothing but prejudice.
Supporting that prejudice makes you all bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:31 AM

Steve your post of 17th July at 10-33am is spot on. I agree with every word. Peaceful protest is perfectly acceptable, but NOT outside a clinic and not directed at vulnerable people. The doctors and their patients, as you say, have every right to go about their business in peace.
As a practising Christian I would want to express my opinions about abortion in less aggressive and unkind ways. (I actually have very mixed feelings on the subject, and would find it hard to express anything coherent) However, I imagine a woman coping with a termination, for whatever reason, needs support, care and kindness. Those are qualities a true Christian should have tons of. And that should come before any fundamentalist holier-than-thou posturing, or nasty and savage attacks on our fellows.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:34 AM

Thanks for that. I didn't say that all Christians condone such behaviour but I did say that I don't see much of the outrage that you've just expressed. Not enough, I'd say. Silence speaks volumes at times. And I reiterate that I'm not talking about physical violence when I say harassment. That's a different ball game.

Keith, picketing outside clinics is clearly what I meant by harassment outside clinics. The entrance to an abortion clinic is an entirely inappropriate place to carry out any form of protest. I've described the behaviour I'm referring to several times. I shouldn't need to spell it out every time I mention it. You never do, after all, as with that Wheatcroft business. Unlike you, I don't go around changing the meaning every time I bring it up. And if that quote in speech marks in your post was supposed to be something I said, it's a misquote. Go back and check.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:55 AM

Those you speak of are about as "mainstream" as those who "protested" outside the Home of Boris Johnson yesterday are "mainstream" Labour or Remain supporters. One of them on being interviewed sated that had Boris Johnson arrived on the scene yesterday he would probably have been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:00 AM

Ah, Progress. You now acknowledge that these protestors do in fact exist. Only a couple of days ago you claimed complete ignorance of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:44 AM

Oh no Raggy just taking Shaw's claim at face value and making a comparison to protestors who did set out to deliberately harass and cause trouble and who did attract the attention of the media by their actions.

Are you still bumping into them right-left-and-centre? Have you asked them yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 11:01 AM

Steve,
I didn't say that all Christians condone such behaviour

No, and no-one has accused you of saying that.
The claim being challenged is that "many Christians" regard such behaviour as that of "mainstream Christians."
You can not justify that claim and neither can Rag or Greg because it is just your own bigoted and prejudiced opinion with no basis in fact.

but I did say that I don't see much of the outrage that you've just expressed.
Not in the post being challenged.
Your first use of the word "outrage came later, on 16 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM
"If I'm wrong, prove it by showing me that mainstream Christianity firmly rejects these horrid people.(Done that!) Show me the Christian outrage, please."

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 11:50 AM

You can not justify that claim and neither can Rag or Greg

Open your farkin' eyes, Professor. Check the archives of any major newspaper or news service for the last 10 years.

(HINT: check the U.S. of A.)

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 12:23 PM

The claim being challenged is that "many Christians" regard such behaviour as that of "mainstream Christians."

So show me where the Pope, the cardinals, the Archbishop of Canterbury and any other Christian leaders have instructed their priests, nuns and congregations to desist from picketing abortion clinics. Silence on the matter, as with child abuse, reeks of acquiescence. If there has been condemnation of the practice, it hasn't amounted to very much.

I don't agree with people picketing the homes of individuals, by the way. That includes the press pack. But at least Boris Johnson's disgraceful lying behaviour in recent weeks has affected everybody in the country. The anger is justified and the picketing is understandable but misguided. However, Daily Mailisms such as "he'd probably have been killed" are utterly ridiculous. Anyone can say stuff like that to justify their position. A woman having an abortion is an exceptionally private matter that impinges on no-one beyond her close family and friends and is a highly personal decision, and it's legal. Sanctimonious indignation from people unaffected by that, expressed loudly by demonstrators outside a clinic, is an outrage that should be universally condemned. Which it isn't, much to the disgrace of the organisations those people belong to.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 03:56 AM

Greg,
Open your farkin' eyes, Professor. Check the archives of any major newspaper or news service for the last 10 years.
(HINT: check the U.S. of A.)

I have searched and so have you.
You can't find a single thing either, or you would have posted it.

Steve,
The people who harass those poor young women and girls are extremists beyond the fringe.
No-one thinks they are "mainstream."
Your claim that "many Christians" do has no basis in reality. It is just your own bigoted and prejudiced opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM

Professor, Could you please show me where I have claimed that the protestors at the clinics were "mainstream Christians"

I merely asked if they were not, then were they radical fundamentalist Christians .................................... who we are told by you do not exist. You described them as "fringe extremists" whatever that is.

As for Teribus he is getting as bad as you for changing his argument he denied such people existed e.g "Guess what PRAT I haven't come across a single one" Then when presented with an array of photographs of the self same people he tried to change the discussion to the people outside Boris Johnsons house and now he is claiming he was responded to another poster. Deceitful and duplicitous.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM

Raggy you prat the truth still remains as far as my own personal experience goes - I haven't come across a single one.

Photographs in newspapers? Do YOU believe everything they write? Anybody can take a photograph and write a caption under it - doesn't necessarily mean anything or serve as a guarantee for truth - ask Piers Morgan, he knows all about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 05:16 AM

Teribus, I never met Beethoven but I can still recognise his music.

I do notice that yet again you (who is so vocal in your objections to such) resort to abuse calling me a prat and reverting to an abridged version of my pseudonym. Not exactly conducive to reasonable discussion, a problem I thought at least you recognised if not your running mate who clearly will never abide by the "rules" which the rest of us try to adhere to after various communications from Mudcat Central.

The photographs clearly show people protesting outside abortion clinics, many are carrying placards, some of those placards are overtly Christian. You figure it out for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM

But Raggy, I do honesty think that you are a prat so why should I say anything other than that. I tend to speak generally as I find and treat all others with the same respect they show me.

You are part of a little clique on this forum who for over two years now have targeted a specific individual and deliberately set out to misrepresent anything and everything he says and have attempted to bully him and cow him into submission or drive him from the forum - I am delighted to be able to say that you and your friends have been spectacularly unsuccessful in achieving your aim - long may that continue to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 08:23 AM

Begodbegod, Teribus, you've really lost it now, haven't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 09:33 AM

Once again avoiding the issue and once again espousing the abuse you say you object to so much.

Not that I'm surprised by either.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 03:39 AM

Lost what Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 07:59 AM

That's just his stock response to you having nailed it perfectly in your post of 19 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM. It's the written equivalent of someone furiously flapping his gums and saying absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 09:51 AM

That's just his stock response

As in your stock response that anyone criticizing the Government of Israel or Israeli atrocities is an "anti-semite", Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 10:10 AM

As in your stock response that anyone who speaks out about Islamist terrorism is an Islamophobe?

BTW look up the new anti-semitism - you might learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 10:41 AM

You must be chuffed to have such a wonderful bedfellow, Teribus! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 10:51 AM

Oh, and Greg, look up religious hate crimes statistics in the US, Canada and Europe and post them here......I dare you.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 11:47 AM

Oh, and Greg, look up religious hate crimes statistics in the US, Canada and Europe and post them here

Post 'em yourself, Boo - if they're so damn important to your spew.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:10 PM

Post 'em yourself

Lol.....I don't blame you for not wanting to, I wouldn't either if I held your views.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:36 PM

So I guess them statistics don't support your spew after all, eh Boo?

By the way, what have those "statistics" got to do with your stock response that anyone criticizing the Government of Israel or Israeli atrocities is an "anti-semite"?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 01:34 PM

Ha, ha....moving the goal posts now, are we?

Don't you just hate it when facts and numbers destroy your cherished ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 04:05 PM

We don't know your facts and numbers you've not shared them with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 05:33 PM

Come along now, forum cheat and serial liar, post those statistics that are going to embarrass us. Show us that you are not actually all talk and no trousers. Jesus, think of it. Bobad with no trousers. Get yer microscopes out, lads...

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 07:56 PM

I challenged big mouth Greg, who is the OP of this thread and bleats on about "Islamophobia", to post them but, as I said, he will never do that because that would shatter his (and Shaw's) delusional obsession with the myth of so-called "Islamophobia". Look them up yourselves boys......if you dare.

For the benefit of those who may be following this thread and are interested I will say that the statistics show that hate crimes committed against Muslims in the US, Canada and Europe are but a fraction of those committed against the main victim of religious based hate crimes overall. In the Middle East the primary victims of religious hate crimes are Christians if you discount sectarian Muslim slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 08:19 PM

Bullshit. Come along now. You were the first to bring this up. Piss or get off the pot. If you can actually find your tiny pisser, that is. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 08:19 PM

I will say that the statistics show that hate crimes committed against Muslims in the US, Canada and Europe are but a fraction of those committed against the main victim of religious based hate crimes overall.

You can say whatever you wish, be it bullshit or not. Post your "evidence", or shut the fuck up.

Again:what have those "statistics" got to do with your stock response that anyone criticizing the Government of Israel or Israeli atrocities is an "anti-semite"?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 08:23 PM

Jaysus, don't ask him stuff, Greg. He's a serial liar and a cheat. You'd get a more honest response if you asked Trump why he loves Mexicans so.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:14 AM

Religious based hate crimes in the USA according to those reported to the FBI:

- 62.4 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias.
- 11.6 percent were victims of an anti-Islamic bias.
- 7.5 percent were victims of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).
- 6.4 percent were victims of an anti-Catholic bias.
- 2.6 percent were victims of an anti-Protestant bias.
- 0.9 percent were victims of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
- 8.6 percent were victims of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion).

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:36 AM

Right, I'm listening. So what are the overall numbers of these religious hate crimes? How many convictions have ensued? What's the difference between a religious hate crime and a racism-based crime? Has any account been taken of the possibility that minorities are intrinsically more sensitive to this kind of abuse and more likely to report, or that not all minorities are the same in this regard?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:46 AM

You would also need to factor in the percentage of any particular group as a proportion of the total number in any given state or country.

Mean, Mode, Median.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:46 AM

When I were a little lad oop north, us lot from the Catholic primary school jeered the kids from the CofE junior school just up the street, called them proddydogs and started fights. Was that a religious-based hate crime?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

Shaw, Raggy, I took the trouble to look them up - rouse yourselves and do likewise - I am not here to spoon feed idiots like you pair on a "Fisking" expedition.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:58 AM

Fine. Do what you always do, feed us with half-baked, unsupported "information." Just have another read of your 04.14 post and try, just try, to figure out why it arouses suspicion, why it looks agenda-laden. Go on, have a go.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:00 AM

Incidentally, you pompous ass, you're not here for any other reason but to blow your own trumpet. You're certainly not here to educate us.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM

Dare say it would be considered so now Shaw with special attention and focus paid to whoever it was put you up to it. Explains a great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:08 AM

There is a very good reason for me to ask Bobad to provide a link to his "figures" and that is there is a good number of people who do not trust him.

If his "figures" are to be believed we need know what they are, we need to be able to see them in context and be able to see the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:14 AM

That last post of Teribus's doesn't make sense. Nobody around here puts me up to anything. Take your conspiracy theories and stick 'em where the sun don't shine, if there's any room left.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:24 PM

Ah so Shaw it was entirely of your own bat that you picked fights and called people names as a young un oop North was it? Have you always been a physical bully Shaw? Union activist, or was it agitator must have come very easy to you. The way you describe yourself is almost as unwholesome as that other left wing-activist, who used to contribute to this forum, who boasted about how he used to go out to demonstrations with knitting needles stuck through tennis balls that were then dipped in human excreta to stick into the flanks of police horses.

Raggytash - 21 Jul 16 - 06:08 AM

Naw, Raggy that's not it at all - you're just too bone idle and scared to find out what might come up. IF the reason was that you don't trust him that is all the more reason why you should check it independently. You aren't going to do it but I thought that anyone reading this thread should know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

You've never experienced more of an unphysical unbully than me in your little life, Teribus, and it speaks volumes about your distemper that you have the nerve to come out with such arrant nonsense. I was quite proud to be a union activist, but I don't even know what "agitators" do. I expect they agitate easily agitated and irascible old buggers like you. Keep taking the tablets, old son. I've never agitated a police horse but I did get run over by a mobility scooter at a charity do last week but one. By the way, which end gets dipped in excreta, the knitting needle end or the tennis ball end?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:46 PM

Hey, Boo- where's that list of Jewish members that have been driven out of the Mudcat??

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:42 PM

" Naw, Raggy that's not it at all - you're just too bone idle and scared to find out what might come up. IF the reason was that you don't trust him that is all the more reason why you should check it independently. You aren't going to do it but I thought that anyone reading this thread should know why"

I know you are not very intelligent Teribus but how on earth can I check independently for myself figures that Bobad hasn't actually provided.


Sheesh !!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:05 PM

No Jews have been driven out of Mudcat by antisemitic attacks. That is arrant nonsense presented to us by a brainless cheating twerp who thinks that mindless lashing out is a valid method of debate. I don't know of one person here who would tolerate the abuse of Jewish people simply because they are Jewish. The criticism levelled by bobad is spiteful, hateful and a pack of lies, perfectly in keeping with his thoroughly dishonest and bigoted persona. He may be thinking that time will somehow diminish the criticism of his deceitful behaviour here. He is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:47 AM

Raggytash - 21 Jul 16 - 04:42 PM

"but how on earth can I check independently for myself figures that Bobad hasn't actually provided." - Bleats Raggytash with a "Sheesh !! thrown in for effect.

Same way as the allegedly unintelligent Teribus did you dull prat.

But just in case you are one of those who cannot chew gum and walk at the same time. Here's the step by step:

1: Bobad drew attention to "Hate Crime" figures for the USA, Canada and Europe challenging the reader to look them up saying that those who did so would be in for a surprise.

2: Google USA Hate Crime Statistics" for the data for the USA.

3: Repeat Google for Canada and then for European countries.

4: Study the data, be surprised, then tell us all about it.

Tell me Raggy when you were in gainful employment were you subject to any restriction on coffee or tea breaks, on the basis that if they let you have any it would waste too much time retraining you?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM

Hello, Anyone home ?

Seeing as most of Bobads figures are likely to come from obscure and often extreme right wing sites the figures found on other websites will almost certainly not correlate. It is only by looking at HIS sources and understanding HIS sources can an objective comparison be made.

Did you not learn that at University ?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:20 AM

I doubt whether he learned much there. I suppose that all the tutors and lecturers hid under the tables in terror as soon as he walked in.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:16 PM

I should have thought that if you think someone's sources are right wing, that you could provide your own indisputably unbiased sources. Interesting that of the religious hate crimes the atheist victims were in the minority. Maybe that statistic puts it squarely in the right wing bracket !

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:51 PM

Interesting that of the religious hate crimes the atheist victims were in the minority.

Probably because there's less about athiests to hate than there is about god-botherers, pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:31 AM

Well I'm still waiting to hear about the precise nature of these alleged crimes. Of course, the easiest thing to do is to throw out a bit of lazy, incomplete information then castigate everyone else for not looking it up. What were they - hate speech, cyber-bullying, physical attacks? How many led to convictions? Wouldn't you have thought that the people who present us with these stunning facts would actually know?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:09 AM

Steve,
Well I'm still waiting to hear about the precise nature of these alleged crimes

There are thousands silly!
All we know is that the FBI recorded them all as "hate crimes."
Why is that not enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:16 AM

Some more info. on the stats.

"A significant number of the anti-Jewish hate crimes – 451 – consisted of vandalism or some other type of property damage. The numbers for more serious offenses against Jews were roughly the same as for more serious offenses against Muslims. There were more aggravated assaults and robberies committed against Muslims, and more simple assaults, intimidations, burglaries, thefts, and arson offenses against Jews. There were no reported hate crime murders of Muslims last year.

If you take the FBI statistics at face value, there were also no murders targeting Jews last year. But in fact, the report omitted three shocking anti-Jewish murders during this period."
http://forward.com/news/325988/jews-are-still-the-biggest-target-of-hate-crimes/

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:23 AM

Excuse me. This is supposed to be about religion-based hate crimes, not ethnicity-based hate crimes. Which is why I was extremely sceptical about the rather scanty information so far provided by our resident right-wing cabal. As for the FBI, who can forget that it was once run by the hardly-unimpeachable J. Edgar Hoover?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:08 AM

Why is that not enough?

Because it destroys the ideological position of those who deny the extent of anti-semitism and exaggerate that of "Islamophobia" to support the false narrative of Israel and "the West" being the cause of terrorism and unrest in the world today.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:31 AM

Well I don't know whose ideology that is but it's miles away from mine. You do make things up as you go along, don't you. Secret identities, for example. Lies about how you prefer to attack the issue, not the man. Now this.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:44 AM

the false narrative of Israel and "the West" being the cause of terrorism and unrest

False Narrative?

Well, Boo, the American Friends Service Committee wants Israel out of the Occupied Territories and opposes the atrocities perpetrated by the government of Israel against the Palestinians.

If its true enough for The Quakers, its true enough for me.

Or is The Society of Friends another bunch of antisemites?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM

Or is The Society of Friends another bunch of antisemites?

I don't know, are they?

I would say that using the term "occupied territories" is buying into the false narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 09:18 AM

You're absolutely correct; you DON'T knowmuch of anything as this:

using the term "occupied territories" is buying into the false narrative

amply demonstrates.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 09:52 AM

A quick Google of Quakers and anti-semitism pretty well exposes their position on Israel and Jews. This from an article in the Wall Street Journal:

"The Quakers began to take a fervently pro-Palestinian stance in later decades. In 1973 the AFSC called for a U.S. embargo on arms and other aid to Israel, and in 1975 adopted "a formal decision to make the Middle East its major issue." It opened an office in Israel, installed specialized staff members at offices in the U.S., and began advocating for Palestinians in Israeli and international courts. The AFSC treads dangerously close to outright anti-Semitism and "replacement theology," the idea that Palestinians were the "new Jews," displaced and downtrodden."

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 10:41 AM

It's a long time since I read such a load of old bollocks. Taking a political stance against Israel has nothing to do with antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 12:01 PM

For your edification Greg, this article by Professor Eugene Kontorovich explains the legal status in international law of the so-called "occupied territories" in terms even you will be able to understand: Crimea, International Law, and the West Bank

I'll post his bio to help you out for when you attack him:

Professor Kontorovich's research spans the fields of constitutional law, international law, and law and economics. He has authored a series of papers that extend "transaction cost" analysis from private law to constitutional law. Prof. Kontorovich is also a leading expert on maritime piracy, universal jurisdiction and international criminal law. His scholarship has been relied on in important foreign relations cases in the federal courts, and historic piracy cases in the U.S. and abroad. He is working on a book, Justice at Sea: Piracy and the Limits of International Criminal Law, under contract with Harvard University Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 12:58 PM

Bobad, re your post of the 20th. Still waiting for your figures. I am not quite sure you`re so sure of them especially as we don,t know what they are or where they came from.

Care to enlighten us .....................

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM

In this case the friends of your enemies are not your friends, they are fiends. You may get new best fiends you may not want.

Before Mudcat is listed as an anti Semitic website, weigh your words and intentions carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 01:43 PM

Raggy, see post from Teribus on 22 Jul 16 - 02:47 AM .

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 03:56 PM

Bobad, I can only conclude from your response that you do not want this forum to know where you obtain your information.

Are the sites so extreme you do not want to share them.





Don't answer if you don't feel comfortable with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:33 PM

We have a parrot in our midst. Actually, that's a disservice to the average parrot. Parrots are rather fine birds which, whilst having no great intellect, go about their business with straightforwardness and honesty. There is nothing fine about bobad/anonymous guest-coward, and he is a total stranger to honesty and integrity. But the "no great intellect" bit applies in spades. A totally disreputable thicko if ever I met one.