BS: Are we all bigots?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 06:46 PM

Oh goodness me keberoxu! I'm pretty sure it's actually the same cast that I watched at the theatre all those years ago! I've also just watched most of the Youtube full-length production (1974) from which your clip is taken. It amazed me to see it actually available on film. The song where the posh chap and lady pull out automatic rifles (she's wearing a red tartan Edwardian dress with a bustle) convinces me it IS the same cast. I even remember her dress!
I'm afraid I have tears in my eyes, as it was so long ago, and I was very ardent and naive. I had a Scottish boyfriend at the time (from Fife) and was very torn in loyalty between being enamoured of Scotland but born and bred in England. It was he who took me to the show, and I did feel he half-despised me for being from London!
Thank you so much for finding this link and posting it for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:49 AM

McGrath makes a good point. Others will have more knowledge about Ireland than I would so is a different case from Scotland. It is going down the wrong route though to blame "the English" for the Highland Clearances in Scotland though. There were of course some of the landlords who were English. Most notably the Duke of Sutherland but remember he was only in that position because he married the Duchess who was a native Scot. It was a class issue and the vast bulk of the people who carried it out were themselves Scottish landowners. There was not an alien English landed class in Scotland - only an anglicised one. Often if not blaming the English then the Lowlanders will be blamed but again though there were a more Lowlanders involved than English the facts are that many of the clearers were the native Highland Lairds themselves. If a Highland chief becomes anglicised and remote from his people it doesn't mean that the English are to blame for his actions.

The Scottish Gaelic poet Sorley MacLean writes about this in his book "Ris A Bhruthaich" which is a critique of earlier Gaelic poetry "It is only too common a feature of Gaelic poetry to blame Englishmen and Lowlanders for the crimes of Highland chiefs. This tendency gets an absurd expression in Mairi Mhor's wish to drive the Sasunnaich from Skye, where nearly all the principle Clearers had names at least as Gaelic as her own"

I've not got it to hand either (so can't remember which chief it is) but there is an interesting bit from James Hogg's diary. The Borders Shepherd is invited up to the Highlands to the estate of a chief and whilst walking is asked how many sheep he thought could be kept on the estate and what kind of profit could be made. Hogg gives an estimate of kinds. Then the company come to a burn (ie small stream) where Hogg crosses. The laird however sends one of his men back quite a distance to fetch another man - and they then lift the chief up and carry him across the burn. Hogg is amazed and says to the chief "do what you will but don't expect to be treated so by a Borders shepherd should you bring one here" He remarks in his writings that the landowner was "like an emperor with as much power as Napoleon in his own domain".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM

I always felt there was a much more complex scenario behind the 'wicked English exploiters' depiction, Allen. Having studied, lived and worked in Scotland as a teacher for many years, in both Glasgow and Edinburgh, it soon became apparent to me that Scotland isn't a cohesive land, but made up of many fierce factions. The wealthy investors and financiers, the left-wing workers, the Gaelic communities in the Isles and the Highlands, and the educated elite etc. Each one of these harbours a grudge against the others (probably justifiably, I can't say...)

I knew many Skye and Lewis people in Glasgow who had no love of the non-Gaelic speakers around them. I knew a few English who despised the parochial Scots. I knew Edinburgh urbane 'snobs' who felt far superior to the ordinary folk at work around them. I took the position of a mere neutral observer, kept my head down and watched and learned!

My sister has lived 'up there' for fifty years and is far better-informed than I, and she too feels that Scotland is an interestingly complicated place. She tells me that in her opinion, independence won't do much for anyone in the long run. It will isolate it from the rest of the world, and drive out the 'immigrants' (mostly English like her!) who contribute an enormous amount to the economy and quality of life. In the hospital where she is a consultant, many of the staff at all levels are from outside Scotland.

I find all this tremendously fascinating!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:58 AM

Bigotry, as I receive it, can depend on the tribe I identify with.

I lived in Malvern for quite a while. Consequently any satirical radio programme that made fun of the town was not funny. They played on the assumption that the town was a magnet for retirees (which was barely true). It had the foremost military research establishemnt in the country, cutting edge stuff staffed with PhD's and wives to match. And a host of clever industry around run by ex-employees thereof. Plus the Morgan Car Company.

Not quite bigotry in the normal sense but on that spectrum, (and easier to use as illustration).

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:35 AM

We get the same in Harlow. Outsiders knocking the town in the press from time to time, and that's not liked. I think it,s general, whether town or country, or football club or religion, or family. You're happy to criticise your own, but it's different when outsiders join in.

Is there a term for reverse bigotry? Where you are prejudiced in favour of some group, maybe your own, maybe another one. I mentioned the fear you might feel with a group of strangers met at night - if I heard them talking in Polish or with Irish accents, I'd be likely to feel more at ease. And I know that doesn't make much sense in practical terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:35 AM

It is interesting but I could't disagree more re the impact of potential independence. There may be some who would think about leaving simply because of independence (regardless of the effects) but I imagine the vast bulk would simply see how it goes. And of course almost a third of English born living in Scotland voted for independence anyway which is a similar percentage to Scottish born pensioners. Likewise more EU citizens voted No than Yes but one of the major factors in that was they were told by Better Together that the only way to secure right of abode in Scotland as EU citizens was by staying in the UK. That has been laid to rest now! So I don't think it could or should be turned into a them and us within the Scottish population thing. Though some unionists might like to suggest it is that the SNP were clear from the start before the Scottish referendum that everyone legally living in Scotland would be guaranteed the right of abode after independence which is much more than the Tory gvt had done before and after the Brexit vote. So yes whether another vote ever happens, or whether it would be won or not, are things for the birds and folk have opinions - but what is clear is that the SNP are one of the more welcoming parties as far as incomers go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFgHQOHqKRg

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:17 AM

As I've been away from Scotland for 40 years now and live in Norfolk, I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Independence. I only get my sister's opinions. But I do wish the land well, as I have many lovely memories of the place.

I know what is meant by being on the receiving end of bigotry towards one's region or town. People often think Norfolk is a joke, and the people inbred and parochial. But I've found it to be a wonderful place to live. The environment alone is blissful (I do like rural peace!) and, as in every place on Earth, there are good and bad among the inhabitants.

I bristle with rage at racism. There are (naturally) good and bad among every race on the planet. Generalisations and mass-condemnation destroy any hope of respect and mutual friendliness. One can't hate ALL black people, or ALL Germans (or ALL Norfolk folk!) One may as well say one hates everybody and have done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM

There is no reverse racism, there is only racism.
In a Woody Allen world there is such a thing as being a bigot, but for the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:19 AM

I totally agree with you that there is no place for racism. Nor is there for generalisations hence I just commented on the association with the idea that Scottish independence and the SNP have anything to do with driving out non Scots from Scotland. It is in fact exactly the opposite. The SNP are in favour of immigration into Scotland and believe it is in general of benefit to the country. Of course not everyone within the Yes movement would agree with that but it is the general consensus. In fact just today the First Minister is holding a meeting with hundreds of EU citizens to take their questions and to try and explain to them how she hopes to secure their rights of permanent abode. Quite frankly as far as I can see it puts the UK PM to shame as she sees the EU residents as bargaining chips in Brexit negotiations.

My wife comes from Norfolk too. From Old Costessey just on the outskirts of Norwich. So yes we know the "Normal For Norfolk" jokes etc and of course anywhere you are it can be much worse than that type of leg pulling. The week I met my wife I was with a group of Scottish lads in Great Yarmouth and as we left a pub, one by one, we were set upon by a large group of lads. Most of us weren't too badly hurt apart from some black eyes and bruises but one of my mates did get a bottle driven into his face which caused a fair injury. There was no prior arguments; not even any contact between us and them; the ringleaders (three of whom received jail sentences) freely admitted we were attacked for no reason other than we had Scottish accents. Likwise my brother-in-law who now lives in Woodbridge got quite an unprovoked kicking in Scarborough because he was southern!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:31 AM

That's just a wee bit sleekit Allan, The reason Scots "general consensus"(who he) is not anti immigration is simply that we have yet to see the huge rates of immigration which have afflicted England....
Ask the general if he's ever visited the towns of North East England or South Wales?

Free movement and its associated social ills is on the way out and as an SNP voter I am pleased to see it going.......I want to see our country truly independent and an economy which gives our young people a purpose......not one built on the back of cheap immigrant labour.

They should be encouraged to build up their own infrastructure, their countries need them more than we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:09 AM

Harold: You sure have a way with people.
Maude: They're my species!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:04 PM

There is plenty of evidence that places with low numbers of immigrants tend to be more hostile than places with higher numbers, and vice versa.

Sunderland, which voted 61% for Brexit has very few people from other EU countries. Thee highest proportion of immigrants in Sunderland are in fact Chinese. And it's also one of the places under biggest risk from Brexit, with its massive Nissan assembly plant only too liable to be moved when it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM

Good heavens Allan! What a terrible and vicious attack on you and your friends in Great Yarmouth! Good thing the Police acted and the men involved went to prison.

I know Old Costessey well. My father lived in Taverham (not far) after retirement and leaving W London.

I wonder what our farmers here in Norfolk and also in Lincolnshire will do if immigrant labour is no longer available. It isn't so much that it's cheap (I don't know if they're paid the minimum wage - they jolly well should be!) but that the local people just don't want to work in the fields. It's the same in those dreadful battery hen units and the turkey-slaughtering, meat- and vegetable-processing factories. Nobody wants to do that kind of work except migrants. I met two Portuguese-speaking Africans from Guinea-Bissau in the supermarket and we managed to chat a bit. Their jobs were awful, in the turkey sheds and slaughterhouse. But they were glad to have jobs, and were content with the pay. I should imagine very few 'Norfolk-born-and-bred' youngsters would be seen dead doing such grim toil.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:24 PM

Actually there are for instance a higher proportion of Poles her head of population in Scotland than there is in the UK as a whole - so it is simply wrong to suggest we haven't got the numbers. What might be correct is that EU citizens are spread pretty evenly throughout Scotland and there perhaps isn't the very high percentages in certain towns as there 'appears' to be in some parts of the south - but as McGrath states that isn't in itself always a factor anyway.

The case is still though that Sturgeon called for everyone to be guaranteed residency very early and I'm pretty sure before other major political figures did. She has reiterated that today.

Whatever anyone thinks on the rights or wrongs of either independence or immigration - my only point was that the suggestion that Scottish independence goes in any way with wanting to kick incomers out of Scotland is way, way off the mark.

On a personal note I have a lot of Polish clients and a good few I'd regard as friends too. The difference between the two referendums I felt was quite stark. In the Scottish indi referendum they had a vote and many seemed at ease asking what you thought about it. In the Brexit vote they did not have a vote and personally I found they were very wary about broaching the subject. The uncertainty re their status is causing problems too. I know of three house purchases just in the Kelso area that didn't go ahead because EU citizens pulled out not knowing for definite what their future status is to be. That can't be unique!!!   

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14688068.Theresa_May_urged_to__do_the_humane_thing__and_allow_EU_nationals_to_remain/

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:26 PM

Senoufou sorry that last post was in response to Ake's comment re the numbers not your new comment :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM

I think that excluding EU citizens ( papart from those of us who were British or Irish) from the referendum on EU membership was a disgrace.