BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Stu
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 04:32 AM

I disagree with Stu's comment that being self-controlled is harder on the Internet than in other circumstances."

That's not really what I meant, but I was typing in a rush so apologies. What I actually meant was that communication via the internet is imperfect for some discussions (especially of sensitive subjects) because our posts lack intonation as well as the expressions and body language we use to communicate non-verbally. Also, the turn-based nature of debate on forums is also less than ideal, and think it's easy to misconstrue comments or arguments.

I always like to think that if we were in a pub, most if us would have a right old time over a pint as we put the world to rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 04:42 AM

Downs people can be autistic too. My friend is part of a team that cares for a young man of twenty. He's severely autistic (and has the extra chromosome of Downs) His behaviour can be very challenging, as he has 'meltdowns' of agitation and frustration, triggered by noise, bright lights etc. He's a large individual, and there are always two carers with him. If restraint were needed (eg if Police were called, most unlikely!) they would probably use a light strap around the lower legs and handcuffs. One officer would always be in charge of the person's head, ensuring breathing isn't restricted and the neck is protected. (I've seen this method of restraint used twice, in Parkhurst Prison) For asphyxiation to occur, by fracture of the larynx or compression of the chest, it would mean an extremely poor, over-aggressive and negligent manner of dealing with the person.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 04:45 AM

Thank you Stu! I'll have a half of Adnams please!

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 07:14 AM

Yes Senofou
People are rarely one thing, category or diagnosis.
As a father of an autistic son the effort to teach skills of independence and self confidence in balance with caution and controlling fear is a daunting job whose goal is freedom.

It is not so unlike any parent's duties is it?

To hear other people's assumptions and prejudice regarding autism Is painful but typical. My son is not just one thing. He is also a hyperlexic genius, possibly from a severe blow to the left temporal lobe.
My efforts may have been instrumental or not, since he developed speech within hours of his fall from a bookcase.

Imagine my surprise as a tabula rasa dyslexic without assumptions or prejudice that Robert is smarter than me. That he is a better writer and

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 07:46 AM

Yes Senofou
People are rarely one thing, category or diagnosis.
As a father of an autistic son the effort to teach skills of independence and self confidence in balance with caution and controlling fear is a daunting job whose goal is freedom.

It is not so unlike any parent's duties is it?

To hear other people's assumptions and prejudice regarding autism Is painful but typical. My son is not just one thing. He is also a hyperlexic genius, possibly from a severe blow to the left temporal lobe.
My efforts may have been instrumental or not, since he developed speech within hours of his fall from a bookcase resulting in a 3 by 1 inch welt.

Imagine my surprise as a tabula rasa dyslexic without assumptions or prejudice that Robert is straight line smarter than me. That he is a better writer and all my years and efforts were incidental help at best.
We make our plans , then life happens.

I once wrote "I wonder what a fully 100% actualized Human being would be like". In response there was an insult that I was too retarded to know. It turns out the answer is no one imprimatur person, but instead all of us together each with our own blindness leading the other partially blind to a collective fully actualized Human Being.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 08:12 AM

You're right Donuel. It's so easy for us to make assumptions, judgements and over-reactions to other people, when in fact each one of us has strengths and weaknesses, gifts and drawbacks to our make-up.
All we can do, as you say, is to look on all human beings as worthwhile and offer whatever help we can, with humility, as we all march onwards together.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 08:39 AM

The right kind of training for people in jobs which involve dealing with the public can help, especially when it allows people to exercise their natural abilities. I am often impressed by the way some check-out workers in supermarkets deal with customers with communication problems and odd behaviours.

At times however I get the impression that some training makes things worse - I've observed people acting in a inflexible and clumsy way in these situations, as if they are applying some rules they have been given. When that applies in the case of police - and at times it does - that can be very dangerous. Especially of course in places where they carry deadly weapons - not just guns, but tasers.

Training can have other unlooked for consequences - I was reading of a case where evidently the police had been given sign language training. The consequence for one young deaf man was that he was arrested for using the sign for "pig" to refer to a policeman.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 10:15 AM

Some training makes things worse

Like the School for America

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 10:55 AM

Then there's the the excessive militarization of U.S. police forces.
Much to much info to post here, but for those interested, here are a few places to start.


https://www.aclu.org/report/war-comes-home-excessive-militarization-american-police

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/10/the-militarization-of-u-s-police-departments/

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/do-not-resist-and-the-crisis-of-police-militarization

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 10:56 AM

I've always tried to use firmness, common sense and kindness when dealing with problems involving other people. Being older helps, as one has more confidence than when young. But the Police are, as you say, in a difficult position. They have a duty to the public at large, and can't risk a situation getting dangerously out of hand.

My husband was completely amazed to see on TV crime documentaries that UK officers always ensure an arrested person doesn't bump their head when being put into a Police car. In his country of birth, they'd be more likely to bash him over the head with their batons, or kick him senseless!

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 11:07 AM

It is true the Credo of the police has gone from 'to protect and serve' to 'fight the war of dissent and terrorism on our streets'.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM

Crime documentaries are likely to show people being a bit more careful to behave the way they should. I wouldn't necessarily take that as proof our police consistently behave better than yours.

They kill a lot fewer people, but there are other factors involved, especially the plague of gun culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 01:56 PM

In my country we have the practical joke of being swatted.

That is reporting a crime from a remote location anywhere in the US that a violent crime is being committed at your exact address.
Within 30 minutes you will have heavily armed men break into your dwelling with a license to kill anyone or anything on the premises.

The domestic use of SWAT teams has grown by thousands of percent since their inception. SWAT history

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Aug 16 - 02:32 PM

You may be right McGrath. Being 'observed' brings out the best in people doing their jobs. (Memories of Ofsted Inspectors observing my lessons; I was 'Mrs Completely-Perfect' in front of them!) The prisoners I visited often told hair-raising tales about how Police Officers (and Prison Officers) had treated them. But of course, I had no way of knowing if they were exaggerating.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 04:25 AM

Senoufou says: My husband was completely amazed to see on TV crime documentaries that UK officers always ensure an arrested person doesn't bump their head when being put into a Police car.

The same is policy in the U.S., and I see it done as a matter of procedure. The population in the US is 318 million, while the UK population is 64 million. And we have guns. So, we're likely to have more bloodshed, despite the fact that most of our police are quite civilized. Civilized police officers don't make for good drama, so you're not likely to see them on television.

I think there's a need for questioning every time a police officer kills a person - and that's standard procedure in the U.S., too. Most officers are suspended (with pay) after a shooting incident, until the matter is resolved. But it is a serious problem. The Washington Post says that 990 people were shot dead by police in the U.S. in 2015. That's a number big enough to warrant serious scrutiny. There has to be a better way.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 02:42 PM

What gets people upset is the suspicion that suspension with pay means back on duty once the fuss has died down, even if the officer in question had screwed up.

I think that improving the video technology significantly, so that there would be hard evidence of what happened in any confrontation is there. Too often we hear that the camera wasn't pointing in the right direction, or the equipment went wrong, or had been turned off. Those things should never happen. And rather than objecting to observers making a record with their phones, or trying to stop the recording, that should be welcomed and encouraged.

As has been pointed out, being recorded encourages all of us to be more careful about behaving badly. It protects police against false accusations, and also protects them against themselves sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 03:04 PM

Well, Kevin - the idea of suspension with pay is to take the employee off the job immediately after a shooting, until all questions are resolved. I think that most police shootings are justified, even ones that may not look good from some perspectives. But it's unfair to remove an employee from the payroll until there's proof of misconduct.

And yes, people get upset at suspension with pay, but it's the right thing to do.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 03:43 AM

A suspended officer still has to feed his family and pay his bills. The very idea of suspension without pay smacks heavily of unfairness and an abandonment of a founding principle of law - English and American - that of being innocent until proven guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Deaf man shot dead by US cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 16 - 07:17 AM

The problem isn't suspension with pay, which is the right thing to do when an accusation has been made, the accusation has been challenged, and an investigation is under way.

The problem is when that investigation is thought to be used as a cover-up.

Police who kill very rarely get punished publicly. Even in the case where an unarmed man (Jean Charles de Menezes) who was competely innocent of any crime was held down in his seat on the London Tube while seven bullets were fired into his head, none of the police involved were ever tried - the police commissioner was found guilty of breach of care to rhe man in question, and the force was fined.