BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law

Subject: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 11:43 AM

Just an idle thought... not saying anyone ever intends to do so...
or how they could possibly be caught if they did..

but how does UK law stand on flushing a relative's ashes down the lav, or bin bagging them in the wheelie bin....????

I think, although, scattering over open fields and sea shores are regarded as legal fair game..
the bog and the bin do look more convenient in lousy British inclement weather.... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 12:10 PM

I think you can do pretty well what you like with the ashes, Human ashes have the same status in law as any other kind of ash.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM

They don't present any health risk. If one put them in the wheelie bin, no-one would even know what they actually were.
I wouldn't flush any ashes down the toilet though, simply because it might block the pipes.
I personally have no interest at all in what people do with my ashes, so if they plonk them in the bin I shan't mind. (because I shall be extremely dead!)

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: gnu
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 12:51 PM

In New Brunswick, Canada, ashes must be interred... greedy bastards. First time I knew someone personally that had chosen cremation was my brother. We both loved being in the woods. It was July and it was hot. Whilst Bro was being buried near the edge a large tract of woods with mostly spruce trees nearby (read "rather boggy"), I couldn't help but think, "At least you won't have to put up with these ******* mosquitoes." Rather difficult to mourn, show respect, and swat skeeters in a three piece suit in the blazing sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:00 PM

A dear elderly friend of mine was choosing a small plot at the local Crem in which to place her husband's ashes. The idea was that hers would join them when the time came. I went with her, and the gentleman showed us a very nice spot next to a large fountain. She said, "Oooh, I don't think so dear. Not there. Listening to that fountain all the time would make my husband and I want a wee."
Luckily it was wintertime, so I could cover my mouth with my scarf.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:13 PM

Punkfolkrocker, no use trying to con us; it's obvious you really are stuck with some old relative's ashes and are trying to decide if you can dispose of them with minimal bother.

(The thought did want to stick in my head while I r'doflmao.)

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:48 PM

On the compost heap would be an honourable compromise. Dig that compost into your veg plot and you'd think fondly about your deceased loved one every time you scoffed a spud or a parsnip.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:38 PM

Ah no Steve. Human ashes have a very high pH, and actually kill plants off.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM

Steve & all, were you aware of the request Lee Hayes of the Weavers left regarding his ashes? During the documentary "Wasn't that a time", Lee made what sounded like an off-hand remark about being part of his compost heap soon. The film ends with script noting that at least some of his ashes were stirred into the pile according to his wish. I've always remembered that as a stunning statement on mortality.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:20 PM

Several peoples in South America have a ritual practice of eating the ashes of their relatives mixed into food.

This might well be an improvement on what you generally get served at funerals in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:35 PM

I read that one can have them made into a 'jewel' by intense heat, then set into a brooch or a bracelet etc. Yuk!

Which rhyme is it that has the words, "...grind his bones to make my bread..."? (Probably one of those 'Fee Fie Fo Fum' type of a thing)

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:42 PM

Many years ago there was an urban folk tale (I assume!) doing the rounds about the relatives in - somewhere warm and sunny - who in November always sent a pre-Christmas box of dried fruits, jars of honey, preserves etc to the folks back home in the old country (Scotland); these were then used to make Christmas cake, mince pies, dumplings and other seasonal items.
One particular year there was a container of what appeared to be ground almonds included, so these were duly used for the baking bonanza, and were enjoyed by all during the festive season.
Rather belatedly the Christmas card from abroad arrived in January, with sad news of the death of an old uncle, and the request that his ashes be sprinkled on the local golf course..........

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:56 PM

I direct your attention to the Samuel Beckett novel, Murphy. The hero winds up cremated and his ashes are mixed in the contents of an Irish bar fight. The bag of ashes was used to hit someone in the fight and eventually swept out in the street with the pee and vomit. The instructions from Murphy was to take he ashes to the theater and have them flushed whatever stall (been awhile since I read the novel) for his eternal rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:09 PM

I disagree, Senoufou, and beware of my scientific credentials on this one. I routinely sweeten my compost heap with wood ash (not too much and never ash from coal). It's by far the best place for wood ash, which washes away and acts far too quickly when directly applied to crops. Great source of potash. I'm guessing that the potash and, especially, the phosphorus in human ash would be just as good. Mine would be especially useful as they would also be a very good source of iron, which I ensure is never deficient in my diet. Could be the vin rouge...

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:15 PM

It's the giant in Jack the giant killer, Senoufou
Fi fo fi fum
I smell the blood of an English man.
Be he alive or be he dead
I'll grind his bones to make my bread.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:37 PM

We had a log fire for years in our last house, and I used the wood-ash as an excellent fertiliser on our vegetable patch and the rose garden.
But human ashes are not the same. Their high pH and high sodium content are toxic to plants.
The high levels of other elements also cause an imbalance in the plants' systems. Calcium for example causes the leaves to yellow and drop off.
You may be a superb scientist Steve, but I am a Gardener Extraordinaire!

Of course McGrath, I remember it now! Thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 07:46 PM

Now now, Senoufou, I am also a gardener sans pareil. The ashes from a single human, mixed into a good-sized compost heap, would do very little to raise the pH as there is all sorts of buffering going on therein. All things in moderation, of course, by which I mean that, in order to not ruin your pH balance, you should not compost more then one spouse every two years...

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 08:01 PM

Many crematoria have a special flowerbed for people to scatter ashes in. I presume they use alkali-tolerant plants? Asparagus seems to be one.

Meanwhile ash scattering is getting political in New Zealand:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/298461/iwi-want-more-say-on-scattered-ashes

Maori and Hindu cultures dictate diametrically opposed practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 10:22 PM

Can't read this thread without remembering the late, much-loved 'Catter katlaughing. Sniff. Hand me a tissue, someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 01:22 AM

Here in NZ we have, or once had, a commercial fisherman who scattered human ashes at sea as a service.
Not a lot of ceremony. He trickled them off the stern as he motored out to the grounds. A helicopter filmed it, and it was on the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:07 AM

Human ashes have the same status in law as any other kind of ash.
Is that true? Certainly not entirely true in NZ, which has a similar legal system.

My brother-in-law had to obtain an export licence to post my some of sister's ashes to the UK. They are still classified as human remains.

Here's a trick which I sadly didn't think of when mother died. We sprinkled some of sister's ashes on the grave of our father.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:16 AM

You are not allowed to scatter on some popular peaks, because it has been overdone and changes the soil that supports the specialised flora there.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:17 AM

I do not understand how they make diamond from the ashes when all the carbon has gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM

Keith, I don't think it's a diamond they make, just a sort of small shiny lump which is then polished. They may even add, say, resin or some such. I think it's gross, but each to his own.

My husband got his Annual Pension Statement this morning and it gave the sum of payout to his widow. I might just do away with him, claim the money, get a wheelbarrow to convey him to the Crem, then have a 'jewel' made with some of him, and mix the rest with lots of other compost, thus diluting the high levels of sodium and calcium, then sprinkle him on our vegetable patch. (There you are Steve, I bow to your superior knowledge - I do love a gardener 'sans pareil' :)
I too have Life Insurance, and my husband has often said he's actually 'L'Etrangleur d'Abidjan'. Its a toss-up which one of us murders the other first.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 04:26 AM

My wife is selfish and stubborn, a fairly efficient & affordable civic cremation doesn't appeal to her,
she wants all the expense and fuss of being buried...

What a right pain in the arse that'll be...
.. we live in a town centre terraced house
which only has a small back yard that's concreted over..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM

I have been told that my ashes may be buried in the Fleet Air Arm Church at Yeovilton , in Somerset , where I will be in illustrious (no pun intended ) company, including Lt.Cdr. Simon Scott-Thomas , father of the famous actress.Being of a lower caste,so to speak,a memorial tablet is not permitted in this instance,but my Service details will be entered in the log in the church.There again,Nicola may well keep my residue in the same box as her favourite cat , called Broccoli for some reason ; who knows ??

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 05:26 AM

There again,Nicola may well keep my residue in the same box as her favourite cat , called Broccoli for some reason ; who knows ??

That would be the box she empties every week?...

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 05:29 AM

I don't care what happens to my remains, as long as the family spend as little money as legally possible
with profiteering funeral business parasites..

Though, it just occurred to me that being scattered at the roots of a fine old cider apple tree
might be a good laugh,
as long as it's not too harmful for the tree..

At least that way I'd have no more excuse for missing wassail every year.... 🍎

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 06:15 AM

punkfolkrocker, do you by any chance live in Brookside??

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 06:22 AM

A number of years ago now I read somewhere that the total monetary value of the chemical constituents of an average human body was seven shillings and sixpence.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 06:26 AM

I have toyed with the idea of engaging the services of a local Funeral Director. Pay him now and instruct my executors to use him.

His name? Well you would not expect anything less from me:

Ernest Cocks

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 06:33 AM

Any relation to Ed Balls?

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: CupOfTea
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 10:03 AM

I admire those who have the intestinal fortitude to do something themselves with the ashes of a loved one. On our honeymoon, my husband and I decided whoever was left widowed would scatter the ashes of the other off the back of the Put-in-Bay ferry. We knew a ferry boat captain who'd done that for folks (he got buried)

When the time came, my husband was the first of our circle of family, friends and acquaintances to be cremated. As a very young widow, I could not deal with the ashes, let alone dispose of them. My pastor was the one to retrieve the ashes and place them in our columbarium.

Re: ashes & plants - a neighbor asked Anita if she could "plant" her husband's ashes in Anita's garden, because he'd always loved being there. "Sure, as long as I don't know where they are" was the reply. When Anita was out of town, the ashes were planted,and the neighbor died without ever revealing where she'd put her husband. Anita thinks she knows, though - her cherry tree had been hovering between life and firewood, and suddenly revived, & proceeded to thrive after that trip.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 11:37 AM

Joanne, I'm very sorry to hear you lost your husband so young. I do hope our macabre humour on here hasn't upset you?

My sister too was widowed suddenly one winter, when very young with two babies. She decided to have her husband buried. She also bravely allowed many of his organs to be donated for transplant. At the funeral, she asked the choir to sing 'In the bleak midwinter' which ends with the words '...give my heart...' We were all distraught, it was unendurably sad.

My husband is a Muslim, and they don't cremate. They also should be buried the same day. This can cause problems if a post-mortem is required, or there's a delay with issuing a death certificate.

I shall be cremated at absolute minimum expense. I think funerals are Big Business, and make money out of grief. The bereaved feel their loved one 'would have wanted' this and that, and it always costs a huge amount.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:05 PM

I would think that if you wanted to send a pack of any kind of organic ashes internationally you'd have to get permission. The fact that they were human wouldn't be the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

Given proper incineration there would be nothing organic about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: BobL
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:53 AM

Being a bit of a canal freak (albeit passively), I have suggested that my remains - cremated or otherwise - be disposed of in the Grand Union Canal, using the form of service for burial at sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 04:07 AM

I'm always intrigued by people wishing their ashes to be scattered in various places they have loved to frequent in life. Do they feel their remains will still be sentient, able to enjoy forever the spot they have chosen? (Like my elderly friend who feared the fountain at the Crem would make her ashes need a wee!) Any consciousness in a human expires at death surely?
I've seen bottles of beer left at ash-interment plots. As if the person can still enjoy a drink. And those stuffed toys etc left, sadly, at the graves of children/babies. I have thought about this quite a bit, and I suppose it helps the bereaved imagine sometimes that the lost one is still around.
I have a faith, so I shall be up in heaven enjoying buttered crumpets and Old Speckled Hen beer. My 'remains' can be shoved any old where, I shan't mind. Dustbin, refuse tip, hole in the ground, feel free.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 04:57 AM

I'm always intrigued by people wishing their ashes to be scattered in various places they have loved to frequent in life

I guess it is more about the person now, knowing teir wishes will be honoured. And then those remembering them have an easier time doing one last favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: banjoman
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:46 AM

I intend to be buried at sea, then all those who have slighted me can dance on my grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 06:30 AM

I think that's true Mr Red. The bereaved want to honour their lost one's wishes. I think the whole funeral culture is a good way for the sad family left behind to express their grief formally in a structured way. I just wouldn't personally want to burden my friends and family with doing special things on my behalf while they're coping with their loss and all the documentation, Probate of the Will and so on that it entails.

In Africa it's an absolutely huge thing. The entire extended family arrives from far and near, plus neighbours, numbering in their hundreds, and they all expect to be fed. Griots come and sing the praises of the dead for hours on end, and they too demand payment. The women scream and wail at the tops of their voices. It's very distressing for a Western-culture person, but I tend to think it's cathartic. They wouldn't dream of cremation. The body is washed and prepared by the women and the men bury it. No funeral directors there!

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 09:25 AM

If you leave your body via HM Inspector of Anatomy for research, teaching or transplant, anything left over will be cremated at the Government's expense. That's what I've done. I like to think the ashes would go into my carefully nurtured 3-bin compost system but I suspect my wife would ignore my wishes if I go first and no-one else would bother. I notice that the grass and privet on the local church plot for the inhumation of ashes looks very healthy.
BTW It's only in the last couple of years that cremation has been legal in Greece,non-Orthodox families had to take the body abroad for cremation before that. In Orthodoxy remains are usually disinterred after a number of years, the bones washed by relatives (usually the women) and put in ossuaries. Thus frees up often scarce land for reburials. Orthodoxy has complex rituals at certain intervals after death,usually involving food and drink.
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 09:31 AM

"...The law on scattering ashes in the UK is fairly relaxed. You can even scatter or bury ashes in your garden if you wish. There is nothing explicit in the legislation to restrict people in disposing of cremated ashes. "
http://www.scattering-ashes.co.uk/help-advice/law/

 
"Many organisations state that they do not allow scattering for environmental reasons. Cremated ashes are rich in calcium and phosphorus that can affect alkalinity and act as a fertiliser. It depends upon the frequency of the scattering and the sensitivity of the environment as large amounts of ashes scattered in a sensitive environment will, in time, have an impact. However, we have found no evidence to suggest that occasional scattering in ordinary environments, such as a field or beach, is likely to cause any demonstrable negative impact."
http://coffincompany.co.uk/wheretoscat 

Watch which way the wind is blowing.
Maccoll's line always makes me wonder what he had in mind:
"...Take me to some high place
of heather, rock and ling;
Scatter my dust and ashes,
feed me to the wind.
... I'll be riding the gentle wind
that blows through your hair,..."

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 09:46 AM

'phosphorus'...?????

Does that mean my ashes could be turned into explosives...!!!???

Now that's giving me some better ideas for how optimally my remains could be put to use..... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 10:20 AM

Back in 2010, there was a website that could have been a great help for burial at sea. It was called Track My Flush and was created for World Toilet Day. You could follow your flush from point of origin to its final destination using a Google Maps overlay showing your local sewerage system (from where I live in Midlothian it toook about three hours and went by a surprising route). Unfortunately Domestos stopped sponsoring it.

I prefer the idea of being used as cat litter though.

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 10:26 AM

punkfolkrocker, you could really go out with a bang!

Jack, I used to take my Norfolk classes to the local sewage treatment site, where they were instructed all about it. One funny little lad told me, "Moi Dad said he were gorn ter drop one this arternoon, soo oi cud troi 'n spot it paaaarsing throo!"

Subject: RE: BS: Human Ashes - Disposal - UK Law
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:54 PM

When I was looking into laws in France so we could scatter mom's ashes there I found out you can legally put cremains in fireworks...