BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

Way to troll the Mudcat Wrecking Crew, McGrath.
Just another thread for them to get their OCD on in. (Yeah, I'm gone)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:36 AM

"None of the antisemitism identified within Labour have just been criticism of Israel."
No antisemitism has been "identified" in the Labour party - it has been alluded to.
Until it is described and apportioned, it will remain the unsubstantiated accusation it is at present.
"Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?"
Because it is the crux of this argument
Will is quite right.
The Israelis have described all questioning of its political policies in regard to expansionism and Gaza as Antsemitism - it has even applied this to Israeli citizens and Jews living outside Israel

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

As I said, each case is unique. But that doesn't affect the issue - even believing that it would be better if a particular state did not exist as a state does not translate into being assumed to be hostile to people from that state, either inside it or scattered round the world.

Accusations of antisemitism are in fact frequently made purely on the basis of criticism of Israel, whether of policies and actions of its government or of its legitimacy as a state founded on ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

What a nasty bit of bile Greg.
Better out than in as your mum probably said.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM

Why, in the name of intelligence, do you people have to repeatedly and continuously enable the rancid bullshit of Bubo, The Professor and T-Bird?

Sheer Perversity? Masochism?

Do you REALLY want or need to see more of their shit smeared on the wall???

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:16 AM

Kevin,
The central point at dispute is that how far it is possible to criticise the State of Israel without this feeding into hostility towards the Jewish people and their culture and religion, amounting to antisemitism.

You keep making this point as if anyone disagrees with it.
They do not.
Of course it is OK to criticise any state, and Israel with its free media and opposition parties welcomes criticism.

None of the antisemitism identified within Labour have just been criticism of Israel. That would not be antisemitism and no-one would claim it was.

Will,
To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate.

Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?

kevin,
As for the suggestion that Israel is the only country where its legitimacy as a state is questioned, this doesn't bear close examination.

It is the only such country that is surrounded by enemies who have made frequent attempts to wipe it out.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:11 AM

"As for this thread. Years ago when I was hitching in Morocco I remember that wasps zooming around after sweet mint tea were a nuisance in outdoor restaurants - and I saw that how Moroccans dealt with that was not to try to swat the waspes, but instead to give them a glass of their own at the end of the table, full of sweetened tea and mint leaves." - MGOH

Which is precisely what the League of Nations did with the Mandated Territory of Palestine in 1923, the Arabs of the regions got 77% of it as "their Mint Tea" and all others, the "wasps" got the remaining 23%. Unfortunately the Arabs wanted it all - they still do.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:04 AM

Bringing in the Nazis as analogies or comparison is liable to happen in any heated discussion - that's why people talk of Godwin's Law - "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazism or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—​​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

It doesn't just happen with Israel, it happened with South Africa, it happens in relation to Putin's Russia, Iran, the Vietnam War, and in all kinds of contexts, even relatively trivial contexts - people talk about "feminazis" or "the folk Gestapo.".

As for double standards, precisely the same criticism was made in the context of South Africa. The common factor is that in both case they were states which claimed to be part of the democratic world, and which were essentially colonial regimes.

As for the suggestion that Israel is the only country where its legitimacy as a state is questioned, this doesn't bear close examination. The legitimacy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and North Ireland to continue to exist is challenged by those who favour Scottish Independence or Irish reunification. The legitimacy of the USSR was challenged by those who favoured its break up into successor state, and the legitimacy of the successor states is challenged by those who favour the reconstitution of a version of the USSR. There are other examples, all different
, all unique, as Israel is, but sharing the common element that there are those who believe those countries, as legal entities, ideally should not exist, and the inhabitants should have a different citizenship. In none of those cases would it be suggested that people holding such views were automatically hostile to emigrants from those countries, even where they did not share these views, or should be accused of such hostility even when they denied it.
..........
As for this thread. Years ago when I was hitching in Morocco I remember that wasps zooming around after sweet mint tea were a nuisance in outdoor restaurants - and I saw that how Moroccans dealt with that was not to try to swat the waspes, but instead to give them a glass of their own at the end of the table, full of sweetened tea and mint leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

McGrath I have watch it grow there

Bobad, Excellent resource you have there


Will, Tribal blowback is ugly. No one wins.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

"There is a clear distinction, in my view, between the actions of the government of a country, and the individuals within or without that country. The one is not the other, and there may be many thousands of people who form part of the nationals of that country who disagree to a greater or lesser extent with their government's policies. To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate."

The opinions of individuals without the country, unless of course they still maintain and use voting rights in that country's elections are totally irrelevant - living as they do in peace and security elsewhere they have absolutely no stake in the matter.

The opinions of those who live in the country itself, provided that country is run on democratic lines, get the opportunity to vote and change their governments at regular intervals (Something that has been denied Palestinian voters for some time now). The electorate of Israel (Who on the other hand have never missed a single election since the country was founded) have democratically elected their current Government, so they therefore cannot distance themselves from the policies of the Government that they themselves elected.

The 15,000+ missiles that have been fired into Israel since they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, indiscriminately targeting the civilian population have not been fired at the Government of Israel, they have been fired with the express intention of killing the people of Israel and strange though it may seem to some on this forum it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to ensure that that sort of behaviour is discouraged in the strongest possible manner.

The case of Israel and the Jewish people is unique. Anybody can make threats of annihilation against any other race or creed in this world and it would be laughed off as a sick joke. That can never be true of any such threat made to a Jew, because history shows there has been a precedent, and quite rightly the Jews take it very seriously, make a threat about annihilating the Jews - as all Israel's Arab neighbours have done repeatedly since 1948 - you bet they are not going to laugh that off or dismiss it - they will act on it and behave in such a manner as to make sure that it never has even the remotest chance of success. And guess what? They are acting and behaving completely and perfectly within their rights to do so.

I take it Will that your Jewish friend of 50 years lives here in the UK? He can opine whatever he wishes because should things go pear shaped he knows that he and his family will not have to pick up the tab. Israel is a sovereign state recognised by the United Nations - NO-ONE on this earth has the right to threaten it, or attack it. And those who do, or allow such attacks to mounted from their territory should fully accept the responsibility for any retaliatory action that results from those attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:21 AM

Yes, I read some of the stupidities on the Labour Party thread - and couldn't be arsed to participate.

I'm not going to participate further in this one - because I've no doubt it will eventually be as rancid as the other - but I'll make this one plain comment.

There is a clear distinction, in my view, between the actions of the government of a country, and the individuals within or without that country. The one is not the other, and there may be many thousands of people who form part of the nationals of that country who disagree to a greater or lesser extent with their government's policies. To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate.

My best friend of nearly 50 years standing - a fellow musician and our family solicitor - has been with us over the weekend. He regards the government of Israel as operating in a disgusting manner with regard to Palestine. He is Jewish; he is not an antisemite or a "self-hating Jew" - which is an equally disgusting term in my view and his.

End of my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

Natan Sharansky: Recognizing the "New Anti-Semitism"

Moreover, the so-called "new anti-Semitism" poses a unique challenge. Whereas classical anti-Semitism is aimed at the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, "new anti-Semitism" is aimed at the Jewish state. Since this anti-Semitism can hide behind the veneer of legitimate criticism of Israel, it is more difficult to expose. Making the task even harder is that this hatred is advanced in the name of values most of us would consider unimpeachable, such as human rights.

Nevertheless, we must be clear and outspoken in exposing the new anti-Semitism. I believe that we can apply a simple test - I call it the "3D" test - to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism.

The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.

The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.

The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.


Jewish Political Studies Review 16:3-4 (Fall 2004)

Subject: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 09:57 AM

I'm starting this thread because arguments, very occasionally rising to the level of discussions, are currently overwhelming another thread about the British Labour Party. I am hoping that some at least of those busily exchanging opinions (and insults) relating to this might choose to carry them on here rather than in that thread.

The central point at dispute is that how far it is possible to criticise the State of Israel without this feeding into hostility towards the Jewish people and their culture and religion, amounting to antisemitism.

At present there is a wave of accusations directed at people within the Labour tradition who are stringly critical of Israel that this amounts to antisemitism, and that they should be purged from Labour. The basis for this is that Jews generally, wherever they live, feel a strong sense of solidarity with Israel, and therefore attacks on Israel are experienced as attacks on them. (Jews who do not react in this way are liable to be desribed as a special variety of antisemite, "self-hating Jews").

The question arises, since there are many diasporas where people with ethnic connections scattered around the world feel strong attachments to a far away country, how is it that it is only in the case of Members of the Jewish diaspora that it is felt that criticism of the far away country is rightly interpreted as hostility to its sons and daughters elsewhere?