BS: From my eyes Elections

Subject: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:23 PM

watching Hillary and Trump , from eyes I see two clown fight about some thing that does not matter for the people ,

I have not heard about , health service , education , work ,
economy only this fight about you are doing this to my and I will do this to you ? like when Trump said Hillary should be in jail ...is that going to help the people ? how many people have no home ? have no or little food , have no health service , no work or education ...

as a man watching this from the Atlantic ocean , I wish all the best to vote , in Iceland we will also go for election for new Alþingi as the last one got cracked out of Panama files ...

I hope some thing big will not happen to lead the eyes of the world to other directions , while the elections goes on in that big land of USA .

so all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:40 PM

Skarpi I hear people are worried about Clinton getting Europe into a war with Russia?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:45 PM

I have not heard anything about that , but remember the media is controlled by the elite , and they only print what they want , they could try to tell you any thing ...

don´t believe everything you read or hear ...

But the Syria problem is made by USA ( CIA ) and the elite ..
not Russia ...

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 05:23 PM

https://www.facebook.com/TruthInsideOfYou/videos/1134702833262383/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

can´t get it blue :) ...
but there is a truth in that ....

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 07:44 PM

When Election Day comes my vote will be cast, it won't feel good but it would feel worse not to vote. But aside from Election day:

you know how sometimes a person is embarrassed to leave the house and face people? Well, I would be embarrassed to travel outside the country right now. I think of people looking at me and going, There goes one of those Americans....

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 07:56 PM

well the Brits went out of EU , witch is bad thinking ....and USA is having two bad people running for president ..

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Janie
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 12:56 AM

Probably should not post here, but I will anyway. This is a weary, globally connected, overcrowded world we live in these days. The objective reality is that, at present, the USA is the most powerful among world governments and countries, but no country or power has the influence and control they had 70, 50 or even 30 years ago.

Any perspectives, domestic or foreign, that cling to the notion the USA can either save the world or will be the demise of the world are not realistic.

Also a mistake to overestimate the power of the Presidency in this post modern world. Not saying it is not still a powerful position.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: mg
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 01:55 AM

Skarpi.. Just sent you a pm about cod cd.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 07:17 AM

"well the Brits went out of EU , witch is bad thinking ..."

No, Skarpi, we didn't. An advisory (i.e. non-binding) referendum was held, which resulted in a very small majority in favour of leaving the EU. The UK is still a member of the EU, and will remain so until Article 50 is triggered, which the prime minister says will happen around the end of March, 2017, and up to two years is then permitted for the completion of exit negotiations, at the end of which we leave the EU - probably September, 2019. Until then, we remain members.

Hopefully, before that time, parliament will over-ride the demands of the Brexiteers, and take the decision to ignore the result of the referendum, and remain in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 08:03 AM

Parliament won't do that. Too many remain MPs are shrugging and saying that we must accept the "democratic wishes" (which were no such thing) of the people (just over 37% of them, but hey ho). It's going to take a bit of an upheaval to turn the thing around. You never know. We are already seeing the currency collapse and the big enchiladas in the EU telling us no back-door deals. A government with no exit plan. Confidence in the economy is plummeting. Even the crowing brexiteers in this forum have gone quiet. Deep down they know that we are coming out on the back of a big lie. Testing times to come. As I said, you never know.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:02 AM

Time will tell, Steve. I have a sneaking suspicion that May is working on lining up a rejection of Brexit in a way that doesn't leave her with egg on her face. I detest the woman, but I have to say that she's a canny bird who campaigned to remain in the EU. She's giving the impression that she's accepted the 'Leave' decision wholeheartedly, but I don't believe it for a minute.

Watch this space!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:07 AM

She'll have to dream up some kind of big vote that she's sure to lose! I do think that more people will turn as things go from bad to worse, which they will.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:13 AM

Not necessarily. While she has determinedly insisted Brexit means Brexit she has also insisted there will be no second referendum. Leavers see this as blocking remainders attempt at a rerun but it could also be seen as a determination not to repeat Cameron's mistake of putting the decision beyond his control. Any 'big vote' would be parliamentary I think.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:42 AM

Hi, Skarpi-
I don't think Hillary Clinton will be a bad President. When I listen to what she says in serious discussion, she makes sense. It's hard for one to explain things rationally when there's another person in the room twisting every word one says, and those are the conditions Hillary has had to campaign under. I think people will soon see that she is intelligent and rational, and that she has very good intentions.

Some of you may recall that for about five years, a certain Mudcatter was constantly posting messages about what a horrible person I was. I did my best to carry on, but it was difficult to be the person I really am. And sometimes I lost my cool and got defensive. It was an impossible situation.

So, I think I can understand what Hillary has been going through. She has been under constant attack for many years. I hope the attacks stop so she can do her job as President, but I'm afraid that might not happen.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:12 AM

Seems from over here she's the best of what you are stuck with
Was horrified to hear enthusiastic applause from Hartlepool for Trump on a political discussion programme last night
What have you done to our country?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: skarpi
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:18 AM

Well I heard about UK leaving at March ...next year ...misunderstanding ...sorry , Joe the media does not as I wrote always tell the whole thing about this campaign ..only what they want to let out .

they control ...sadly to say ..

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:18 AM

Assholes know no nation or international boundary.

Unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM

The Repuglicans in Congress will do what they did to Obama - they will de-rail everything she tries to do, no matter whether it be good for America or bad. It's what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:50 AM

All I ask is that you yanks pick an average president. Clinton will make a very average president. You've picked an average president since 2008 and you picked one through the 90s and one at the end of the 70s, though that poor sod didn't stand a chance. You are quite good at picking terrible presidents, which is what we're all scared of. You picked a terrible president at the end of the 60s, then all through the 80s, then again through most of the 2000s. Picking a terrible president can do a lot of harm. All we can hope for is that your two Houses clip the wings of any terrible president you pick. If you do pick a terrible president this time, I think that will happen and the silly bugger will have to behave himself. But that's no way to run even a fish and chip shop.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 02:52 PM

Janie, if there were a "like" button, I would "like" your post.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:19 PM

There are damnfools everywhere. But the Democrats stand a good chance of winning back control of the Senate and a reasonable chance of the House. Either one could break the deadlock and allow the government to govern once again.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

1: "But the Syria problem is made by USA ( CIA ) and the elite ..
not Russia ..."

Really? Since before 1967 the Soviets have backed the Syrian Government to the hilt to secure their Naval Base. US involvement in Syria since 1967 has been minimal. As part of the so-called "Arab Spring" the Syrian people wanted reform that the Assad regime just wasn't compared to grant - so the Assad regime started killing those demanding reform and the Russians still wanting their Naval Base did everything in their power to help them along with other allies in the region namely Iran and Hezbollah in the Lebanon. Love to hear where and how the Americans and the CIA are involved in this lot.

2: "well the Brits went out of EU , witch is bad thinking"

Surprised Skarpi that you think it such a bad idea that we want out of the EU - Your own Government came to the same conclusion, i.e. that they are better off out of the EU than be in it.

"Hopefully, before that time, parliament will over-ride the demands of the Brexiteers, and take the decision to ignore the result of the referendum, and remain in the EU." - Backwoodsman

Simply just not going to happen Backwoodsman. If it did happen however, look to the greatest shake up in British politics come the 2020 election. Love to see your commitment to democracy though - wishing for the elected representatives of the people completely ignore and go against the will and the wishes of the British people.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 10:30 AM

Apologies that British people should of course read British electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 10:47 AM

That should of course read 37% of the British electorate, an electorate whose wishes were seriously distorted by a disgraceful campaign from both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 11:09 AM

skarpi, why do you think clinton is a bad candidate?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM

Teribus, our democracy requires that issues of national interest are debated and voted upon by parliament. The referendum was not binding, it was advisory. The decision whether to leave or remain in the EU should be debated and voted upon by those elected to parliament.

The government has listened to the will of a comparatively small minority of the population and, on that questionable basis, is investigating the means by which the UK might leave the EU. At such time as a plan is devised, and the terms and conditions of exit are negotiated, our democratic process requires that the plan and Ts & CS are put before parliament to be debated and voted upon.

THAT is true democracy. Simply pandering to the wishes of a minority, especially one composed of feeble-minded fools, who fell for the lies of three spineless cowards who ran for the hills the moment the 'Leave' majority, and those three liars' bluff, was called, is not democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM

why do I think Clinton bad ....
Is she likely to end the stupid war in the middle east ??
CIA against the ( ISIS ) made by CIA tell me , I would see all the money you r Government is spending now and will spend in the coming future for the people instead for the US instead in the Army complex

Bernie was the man ....but that ´s me

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 01:26 PM

Bernie was the man ....but that ´s me"

Not just you, Skarpi. You're dead right, and I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 02:26 PM

Is she likely to end the stupid war in the middle east ??

Well, as she didn't START it - how is she all by herself supposed to stop it?

Bernie indeed WAS the man, but that was then & this is now.

And if Bernie says "vote for Clinton, and work from there" as he has REPEATEDLY done -I'm inclined to go along with him.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: olddude
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 09:32 PM

My front yard has I like ike in a home made sign next to a vote fdr. Hell we are all traditional people anyway

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 09:30 AM

Confidence in the economy is plummeting. Even the crowing brexiteers in this forum have gone quiet.

And the BBA is saying the banks are poised to leave for Europe. Even if not true, it is about making sure the Brexit arrangements goes the way the banks want, whether or not that corresponds with the referendum results.

Happy 4 month anniversary.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

Not gone quiet at all, its all done and dusted no "free movement" under any circumstances.
No more laws sent down from Brussels.

Farage for politician of the year.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 12:37 PM

Tell him, Greg...

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 01:05 PM

Greg knows even less about UK politics than he does about US , though a little more than you do about either.

Read and learn ....We are in the process of leaving the EU there is no other way, the referendum was won by the people who voted leave....end of story for everyone but those who believe in the "tooth fairy"....poor lambs   :0)

Not even "snake in the grass" Hillary can stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 01:14 PM

On the middle East, I also agree with scarpi......even OUR political leaders are not stupid enough to de-stabilise Iraq, Libya, and Syria....by accident!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 01:20 PM

Say goodnight to the folks, Gracie...

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 08:17 PM

I'm not a 'yuge' fan of Hillary, mainly because we've already had a Clinton in the White House, but probably 80% of her bad opinion rating is due to years of repetitive character assassination rather than actual misdeeds, maladminstration, or incompetence. John Boehner went a long way toward admitting this in public.
Donald, OTOH is genuinely malodorous, incompetent and nasty. I would not be astonished if he is into senescence due to his overuse of superlatives and underuse of standard English grade school vocabulary.

There is some argument to the fact that he is less likely to reach 'the button' on account of his tiny hands, but I think this is an exaggeration.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:57 AM

Backwoodsman - 22 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM

As I said Backwoodsman I like your take on democracy:

"The government has listened to the will of a comparatively small minority of the population and, on that questionable basis, is investigating the means by which the UK might leave the EU."

It was the largest voter turn out that the country has ever seen.

More voted for leaving in 2016 than voted to remain in 1975.

Your comparatively small minority voting to leave was larger than the even smaller comparative minority voting to remain. Live with it.

Fact of the matter is that there will be no negotiations on the UK leaving the EU until AFTER Article 50 has been officially triggered, after which the negotiations will be between the Government of the UK and the EU Commission. The UK Parliament will not even feature.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

34% of the electorate voted to leave. 66% didn't - even you should be able to do the maths.

It was a flawed referendum, the Boy Blunder Cameron cocked it up right royally - if the rule is that trades unions need a 60/40 majority to legally go on strike, the same rule should have applied to a referendum that will have infinitely greater consequences than industrial action by a union.

And, of course, the simple fact that people like you constantly ignore is that the terms of the referendum clearly state that it was advisory, not binding.

It's you who has a warped view of democracy if you are happy for parliament - the representatives of the whole of the U.K. population, not just those who voted Tory at the GE - to be denied a debate and vote on the terms and conditions of exit negotiated by the government.

Time will tell, of course, but I'm firmly convinced that May is presently paying lip-service to the Brexiteers, whilst she and her cohorts manoeuvre to reach a position where they can reject our leaving the EU. In the meantime, we are left looking on as the disaster the Three Lying Monkeys have wrought upon us unfolds.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:21 AM

Well, Teribus, let's now represent the numbers properly.

1975 referendum: registered voters 40,456,877
2016 referendum: registered voters 46,500,001 (over six million more)

1975 remain vote: 17,368,581
2016 leave vote:    17,410,742
Difference: 2016 leave "wins" (as you said) by 42,161.

But you see, Teribus, there were over SIX MILLION MORE ELECTORS this time round, which makes your 42,161 "lead" look very paltry indeed. In fact, had there been a level playing field for your comparison, I'm sorry to say that this year's leave would have been numerically trounced. In addition, the number of remainers in 1975 was more than double the number of leavers, which makes this year's far more marginal result look a little lean, n'est-ce pas? By the way, I didn't agree that we should have had that referendum either.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:03 AM


Not gone quiet at all, its all done and dusted no "free movement" under any circumstances

Whatever system is developed could be so lax that for all practical purposes there is still free movement, or so strict businesses are damaged and illegal immigration is high. Both technically ending "free movement".

No, it is not all done and dusted: it has barely started.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:22 AM

Anyone who thinks that immigration is going to nosedive any time soon is deluded. For a start, there is more migration from outside the EU than from in it, which will not be affected by any "deal" with the EU. Then there's the fact the overwhelming number of migrants from the EU come here to work. Not to live the benefits lifestyle, etc. That means that they are needed. As we don't train our own skilled workers, and as we Brits are reluctant to pick daffodils and sprouts, wipe bottoms in care homes and clean tourist toilets, they will continue to be needed and will continue to come in. It's a good bet that if the one big immigration lie we were peddled hadn't been deployed in the campaign, we wouldn't be coming out.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:57 AM

Hillary has spent her life witnessing and acquiring the keys to power through joining all the status quo world bankesque institutions.

Trump has spent his life gaming the system without knowing what the institutions are about. The one good idea Trump parroted was term limits.

Skarpi is right about individual needs being by passed.

The biggest issue is world wide environmental concerns.
shhh global heating ,floods, drinking water scarcity, is here and now.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:09 AM

Only after votes are counted can you really find out why people voted the way they did.
Comment :Some people would vote for Goldilocks and the 3 bears?

"Independant "View of why voters voted for Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:16 AM

Much is said about the pathology of Donald J Trump.

I only ask you to notice you have never seen or heard Donald actually laugh. Never.

In many ways Donald is stranger than Adolf.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 12:27 PM

It is nothing to do with numbers, "Free movement" means we have absolutely no control over migration into the UK from the EU.

That is what we voted for,
control of our own affairs, we CAN control migration from the Commonwealth and other countries outside the EU.

Control means that we get the sort of economic immigrants we require in numbers that we can cope with, without discriminating against our own people.   If the Westminster mafia think they can gerrymander this vote they have another think coming. Just look at the kind of people who are leading the Remoaners.....discredited Labour MPs and "liberal dinosaurs"

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 12:57 PM

"Was horrified to hear enthusiastic applause from Hartlepool for Trump."

What do you expect from monkey hangers?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:16 PM

Hillary = More of the same, slightly right of Obama = stability = market confidence.
Trump = Yuge uncertainty, no fixed ideology, no plan, no experience in cooperative solution building = probable recession immediately after election.

Its a pretty easy choice in my opinion, even if she incapable of stopping a war which nearly an inevitable result of Cheney/Bush destabilizing the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:18 PM

Nah, Jack, Hillary done made that thar war all by herself. Just ask Ake- he'll explain it to ya.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:00 PM

While he's at it, perhaps he can explain to us his extremely peculiar take on the word "jerrymander." 😂

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:57 PM

Gerrymander.


1812
1812, Americanism; after E. Gerry (governor of Massachusetts, whose party redistricted the state in 1812) + (sala)mander, from the fancied resemblance of the map of Essex County, Mass., to this animal, after the redistricting

Dictionary .com.

Always happy to assist the intellectually challenged....I'm too good for this world really!    :0(

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 04:41 PM

Regarding The war in Syria, the key is of course the removal of the Gadhafi regime and the subsequent political vacuum which was filled by Jihadists. The fall of Gadhafi, promoted against the better judgement of President Obama by his secretary of State Mrs Clinton led to the rise of Isis and the move into Iraq and Syria.

Had Mrs Clinton succeeded in having Assad removed from power in the same manner as Gadhafi, ISIS would now control most of Syria Libya, and Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:19 PM

Your "explanation" of jerrymander does not connect in the slightest with the way you misused the word in the post I picked you up on. You clearly didn't know what it means. Take your intellectual challenges elsewhere, preferaby to another planet since you think you're too good for this one. A mutually advantageous arrangement, I'd suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:23 PM

The kind of people who are leading the Remoaners

As opposed to the kind leading the Brexcreters - Trump-supporting Tory eejits and lying sacks of racist crap?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:24 PM

"Your "explanation" of jerrymander does not connect in the slightest with the way you misused the word in the post I picked you up on"

Well beside the fact that you are unable to spell the word correctly, the "Remoaners" are trying to carve up the result of the referendum in the same manner as Mr Gerry carved up Massachusetts..... no doubt in his political interests.

If you are still having trouble with interpretation.....ask Greg   ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:34 PM

I advise you not to pick me up on my spelling. It may just make me want to go for your jugular every time I see the slightest error in any post of yours, and I'll be looking out from now on. My spelling of jerrymander is a perfectly acceptable variant and the one I've always used. Do your homework if you would rather not make a complete bloody idiot of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:56 PM

I take it that you hadn't heard of the original? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:58 PM

You are a very sad person, this section of the discussion is at an end.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:34 PM

That comma after "person" is ungrammatical. I did warn you.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 09:03 PM

Ake, you have lately spoiled every political thread by changing the subject to your hatred of Hillary. Many posts reek of the vitriol you cast around because of your dislike of someone you know virtually nothing about. You need to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:01 AM

Acme, this is a thread about the US election, in such a discussion it is important that the policies of both candidates are examined. It is also important that the thread does not degenerate into a series of obscene insults directed at one of the candidates.

Mrs Clinton has voiced her support for a "no fly zone" over Syria if she is elected. A "no fly zone" is code for regime change, just as it was in Libya; this policy on its own would stop me from voting for Mrs Clinton as it would bring the US...and by extension the UK, into direct conflict with Russia.

The points I make are not "hatred" but simply an illustration of the extreme flaws in Mrs Clinton's foreign policy.
The US political system has thrown up two very bad candidates and the American people deserve very much better.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

Does anyone know what Trump's 'Foreign Policy' is? That's apart from building a 2,000-mile wall to keep Mexicans out (and, somehow, forcing Mexico to pay for it), banning Muslims from entering the US, and kicking out the ones already there?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:40 AM

"Had Mrs Clinton succeeded in having Assad"
Had Assad been removed when he was massacring his own people in Homs, Isis would still be the the bunch of cranks it always was and this war would not have been taking place.
The British Parliament voted not to get involved in a war with Assad, now the world is up to its arse in war in his defence.
"He may be a monster, but he's our monster", seems to be the order of the day
Britain supported both sides of the war in Libya with arms and ammunition - British armed rebels were fighting British armed government forces and the Qdaffi regime had been guaranteed a future because Britain had groomed his son to take over.
I wonder if your hatred of Clinton is because she's a woman - you seem to regard women the way you regard Gays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:47 AM

"Does anyone know what Trump's 'Foreign Policy' is? "
Trump has suggesred the use of nuclear weapons to solve international problems on nine occasions - thinking big seems to be his thing.
FOREIGN DIPLOMACY - TRUMP STYLE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 04:27 AM

Yes, that's kinda what I was hinting at, Jim - it seems that Mr. Trump's idea of 'foreign policy' is a kind of Gunboat-Diplomacy with no option to go back.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 04:29 AM

Oops, pulled the trigger too quick!

If the lunatics really have taken over the asylum that is the US, it really will be 'God Help America' (to paraphrase one of their favourite invocations).

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 04:47 AM

'foreign policy'
Policy ?
Who needs policy when you've got bombs?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:06 AM

They're nearly all here. Wait for the last one and then we can start another thread and get some chat in before they notice.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:26 AM

"They're nearly all here"
Yup That's democracy for you Stu
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:35 AM

Is it I, Lord?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:42 AM

Just no one mention Israel. Whoops.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:52 AM

Or God. I've just mentioned him in the Dylan thread but I think I got away with it...

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:43 AM

Backwoodsman - 24 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

34% of the electorate voted to leave. 66% didn't - even you should be able to do the maths.

Not quite the full story is it Backwoodsman

Number of local areas declared: 382/382
Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001
Turnout: 72.2%
Rejected Ballots: 25,359

If you want to take the total electorate into account

It was 34% of the electorate voted to REMAIN - 66% didn't

37.4% of the total electorate voted to leave
34.7% of the total electorate voted to remain
27.9% of the electorate could did not vote at all.

Of those who felt strongly enough to stir themselves off their backsides to vote 52% voted to leave and 48% voted to remain - live with it.

In the 1975 Referendum voter turn out was 64.03%
In the 2016 Referendum voter turn out was 72.2%

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:56 AM

House!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:03 AM

Just checking your bingo card, Stu .... yep, all correct.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:49 AM

"Number of local areas declared: "
How did the 'Brexit-to-Little-Britain-in-Three-Months Show' get here?
And they accuse us of "thread drift"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:22 AM

No idea Jim but at least the figures I have given are correct and prove that the majority of the electorate who voted voted for the UK to leave the EU.

Now I suppose that those who question that would if the US Presidential turned out a similar result in favour of Hilary Clinton would then advocate that her majority was insufficient and that Trump should really be given another chance. Or would 51.9% Clinton 48.1% Trump be good enough to make Hilary Clinton the next President of the United States of America?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:30 AM

The government announced today that they are to pursue their plan for a third runway at Heathrow, and stated that parliament will have the opportunity to debate and vote on their proposal.

If it's democratic for parliament to debate and vote on this issue, please explain why you believe it would be 'undemocratic' to debate and vote on the terms for Brexit - an issue of vastly greater importance to the whole of the population of the UK.

And your numbers prove precisely what I said - 34% voted to leave, 66% did not vote to leave. You must live in a very warped parallel universe if you genuinely believe that 34 is a greater number than 66.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:43 AM

"No idea Jim but at least the figures I have given are correct and prove that the majority of the electorate who voted voted for the UK to leave the EU."
Course they did - that's why the unemployed of Britain have no alternative to stay at home and by labeled as "scroungers" by 'patriots' like you.
I seem to remember a party that was 'democratically' elected in the early thirties - I can think of at least six million reasons to question that decision.
In the old days, you voted for who you thought was the best - nowadays, it seems the choice is between the least worse - as represented by Clinton and Trump.
Electoral Democracy eh - you can't whack it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:28 AM

My figures of yesterday were correct too, and they corrected a false impression of the two Europe referendums that you tried to present. And your comparison with a presidential election is false. First, you can change your president every four years. Not irrevocable. Second, our referendum was completely skewed. A vote to remain would not have been irrevocable. Future referendums to try to get us to leave would have been perfectly possible, quite likely in fact in the event of a tight result,. but the vote to leave, once Article 50 Is activated, is to, all intents and purposes, irrevocable. Even if we wanted to, it would take decades for us to get back in, and the EU almost certainly wouldn't want us back. That is why the threshold was set way too low. Whilst I vehemently oppose the holding of any referendums on this matter (or any other), if we are going to have one the threshold should have been no lower than 60% leave on a minimum 75% turnout. Comparisons with general elections are invidious and mischievous.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:31 AM

this is a thread about the US election, in such a discussion it is important that the policies of both candidates are examined. It is also important that the thread does not degenerate into a series of obscene insults directed at one of the candidates.

Rich, coming from you, Akenaton, who can only insult one candidate consistently and repeatedly. Johnny-One-Note steps in to comment on the U.S. election - from Scotland.

The opening post may have discussed the US elections but there are others in the world and the tread title doesn't exclude those others. Why don't you look at the mess in the UK after the poorly-considered support of UKIP policies were codified in the national election there, resulting in the bigotted and short-sighted move to leave the European Union. Dwell on that mess for a while, stop prognosticating on something you really don't understand and refuse to consider the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 11:19 AM

Can I just say that, in general, our Proportional Representation system in Ireland is infinitely more democratic than the first-post-the-post fir-up in Britain.
We're sill in the hands of the vulture capitalists and bankers, but at least we know that our politicians can't totally ride rough-shod over public opinion - and the fact that we don't really have a crusading right-wing media capable of being kingmakers at election time, we tend to vote on grass-roots issues rather than Murdoch-concocted ones.
Labour learned that the hard way when it sold out to a right wing party in order to hold office and self-destructed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 11:41 AM

🎼 So right, he said it twice...🎶 😄

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM

How do you add that musical notation??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:02 PM

This was skarpi's thread to start with.

Forgive them, skarpi, they know not what they do, nor do they care to what OP they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

Is it really beyond the scope of this topic to discuss the various aspects of democracy in a subject that is dealing with how an extremist, mysoginst, racist multi-billionaire might just might be awarded with a position that gives him access to the nuclear button?
I think I said this, but I was horrified to see a group of Liverpudlians clapping and cheering for Trump last week - and our own Boris the Bad does look awfully like Donald the Don - with a little less hair!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

Bloody hell Jim, I don't know! They're 'emojis' that became part of the iPad keyboard arrangement several versions of iOS ago. There's a button with a smiley face on it, near the 'numeric' button - hit that and the emojis are displayed, hit the emoji you want, and it pops into your text.

No idea if you can do it from a PC though, I'm almost always on my iPad.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:35 PM

Errrrrmmm, Keberoxu - be careful before you start pointing fingers. The OP himself brought up the subject of Brexit in the sixth post of the thread, 20 Oct 16 - 07:56 PM. That makes it a perfectly legitimate discussion point here, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:58 PM

Thanks BW
Will master this technology one day - still pining for the quill pen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:57 PM

I know that feeling well...!! 😄

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:36 PM

Will master this technology one day - still pining for the quill pen

Not to worry, Jim - I still USE a quill pen upon occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:06 PM

Well I used one of those ultra-modern flowing-bloody-ball ink thingies to write Mrs Steve's birthday card last night. After five minutes the ink still wasn't dry, but I didn't know that, did I, so when I picked it up to shove it in the envelope I smudged the whole bloody lot. Cost me five quid, that card. Luckily, once in pride of place you couldn't see the smudged kisses (nearest I get these days). Give me those nibs on wooden sticks and a bottle of Quink any time!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 01:57 AM

Backwoodsman:

1: "please explain why you believe it would be 'undemocratic' to debate and vote on the terms for Brexit"

It falls within the power of the British Government to set the terms and fully outline their plans for the proposed third runway after at least 12 months of consultation with those who will be responsible for doing the work. The terms and conditions for Brexit on the other hand is a negotiation between two parties and cannot be set by the British Government, and it would be both idiotic and irresponsible of either side in such a negotiation to lay out their stall in public before entering such a negotiation.

2: "your numbers prove precisely what I said - 34% voted to leave, 66% did not vote to leave. You must live in a very warped parallel universe if you genuinely believe that 34 is a greater number than 66. "

Nope it proves that your arithmetic skills are somewhat rusty

17,410,742 out of a total electorate of 46,500,001 works out at 37.44% of the total electorate not 34% as you claim.

If you wish to express things in the way you did then the following is also true:

34.7% of the population voted to remain in the EU - 65.3% did NOT - the actual vote taking the total electorate into account was as follows:

37.4% of the total electorate voted to leave
34.7% of the total electorate voted to remain
27.9% of the electorate could did not vote at all.

So of the 72.2% of the electorate who actually did vote 51.9% voted to leave and 48.1% voted to remain even with your diminished arithmetical skills even you will be able to tell us which is the greater.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:24 AM

Not a single response to the damage that has been done to Britain by this crass decision
Business (or lack of) as usual.
RACIST ATTACKS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:28 AM

ECHOES FROM ACROSS THE POND
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

The crass decision would have been to vote remain in order to allow our legislation to be dictated to us by Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:07 AM

It's not my mathematical skills that are in question, Teribus, I'd be willing to pit those against anyone around here - I pulled 34 and 66 from memory, and my 70-year-old brain does occasionally fail me nowadays. However, 34% or 37%, what's 3% between 'friends', especially when it indicates that a comparatively small minority of the electorate expressed a wish to change the status quo by leaving the EU. In those circumstances, it's perfectly reasonable and proper to take a view that the majority, including those who expressed no opinion, are satisfied with the status quo, and are happy to remain.

As Steve has said, the referendum was fatally flawed, it was simply a device introduced by a scared-shitless leader of the Tory party in an effort to ensure a victory at the 2015 GE, the terms were badly set and the whole thing was yet another Camoron Cock-Up.

Democracy demands that issues of significant national and international importance should be debated and voted upon by our elected representatives in parliament, who are certain to be far better informed on the minutiae of the issue than the general public, and whose responsibility it is to make decisions on behalf of all of us. The government has decided to follow the wishes of the minority of the electorate who were seduced by the sound-bites and slogans, and expressed the desire to leave the EU - that's fine - but at the moment, that's all there is.

There will be a long period of negotiation which will, hopefully, result in a set of terms and conditions for our exit. Exit from the EU is the biggest, most significant issue to face the UK since the decision to go to war with Germany in 1939 - why would you, or anyone, wish to deny parliament the opportunity to discuss, debate and vote upon those terms and conditions? Why do you wish to deny our parliament, our very democracy, the chance to do the job it exists to do in the face of the biggest challenge to our economy and society for almost eight decades?

If leaving the EU is such a good idea (and, at the moment that's all it is, an idea - no plan was put in place by the Three Lying Monkeys, just slogans, sound-bites and noise), what are you so afraid of?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 08:32 AM

And our legislation is not 'dictated to us by Brussels - that's another lie peddled by the Blond Bozo, Old Cod-Face, and The Little Scottish Viper. 13% of our laws are proposed by the EU, and they are ratified by our parliament. The remaining 87% arise from our own legislature.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 09:13 AM

"it's perfectly reasonable and proper to take a view that the majority, including those who expressed no opinion, are satisfied with the status quo, and are happy to remain."

"Perfectly reasonable"? No Backwoodsman more like "fatuous".

Your 13% figure is wrong:

"between 1993 and 2014 Parliament passed 945 Acts of which 231 implemented EU obligations of some sort.

It also passed 33,160 Statutory Instruments, 4,283 of which implemented EU obligations. Add both of these together and divide by the total number of laws passed, and you get the 13% figure.

But that's not really an accurate figure because most EU regulations don't require new UK laws. They can be implemented in the UK without new legislation, for example by simply changing administrative rules. So, the 13% figure doesn't take into account EU regulations that don't need additional UK legislation to be brought into force.

If you count all EU regulations, EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments, about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply in the UK implemented EU obligations."

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 09:44 AM

Ok, you've demonstrated your skills with Google and Cut & Paste. Let's hear your own ideas.

Answer the question (which I notice you studiously sidestepped) - what is it about the concept of our elected representatives in parliament debating, and voting on, the terms and conditions of exit which the government negotiate with the EU, that you're so afraid of? Why are you so terrified of the UK's democratic process? Wasn't one of the sound-bytes parroted ad nauseam by the Blond Bozo "Take Back Control"? Wasn't he referring to our own parliament "Taking Back Control"?

So why are you so scared of the UK democracy you people claim to have voted in favour of?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 09:45 AM

Bugger, missed claiming '100'!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

Very few, a tiny percentage, of "EU laws" have ever met with UK disapproval. In a club of 28 (by now) there will always be something or other you don't like. The rational thing to do is to negotiate from within. When we leave we will still have to abide by EU laws if we wish to trade, but we'll have no say in those laws. Using EU laws as an argument for leaving is like resigning from the golf club because you don't like the colour of the back of the beer mats.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 10:28 AM

resigning from the golf club because you don't like the colour of the back of the beer mats.

T-Bird's already done that.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 10:56 AM

Correct, Steve. Those rational ones amongst us, the ones who aren't seduced by the Liars' slogans and sound bites, who don't wrap themselves in the Union Flag and St. George's Cross tee-shirts, who don't fall for every piece of nationalistic, xenophobic, racist horse-shit the Daily Heil, Sun, and Express print, we understand those things.

Sadly, that kind of intelligent thought is way beyond the 'Take Back Control' crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 10:56 AM

"what is it about the concept of our elected representatives in parliament debating, and voting on, the terms and conditions of exit which the government negotiate with the EU, that you're so afraid of?"

Not all that afraid about anything. I am however somewhat sceptical, those doing all this debating Backwoodsman, would they be the same brand of self-serving trough guzzlers who lied through their teeth to us in 1973 and again in 1975? Would these be the same "professional politicians" who would have a conflict of interest in voting for the continuation of their access to the greatest "Gravy Train" in the world versus what is in our country's best interest? In political thought the latter has taken a back seat as far as British politicians go for decades.

I also see no advantage in our side of the negotiating team having to give their hand away and offer the EU Commission detailed insights into our negotiating position before we even sit down with them. Ultimately the terms and conditions for us leaving the EU will be a compromise reached through negotiation with the EU Commission, not the EU Council of Europe and most certainly not with the EU Parliament.

Also one from your earlier post:

"Democracy demands that issues of significant national and international importance should be debated and voted upon by our elected representatives in parliament, who are certain to be far better informed on the minutiae of the issue than the general public, and whose responsibility it is to make decisions on behalf of all of us."

That bit highlighted in bold - Don't you believe it Backwoodsman - they are as clueless as the rest of us, as the pre-referendum campaigns showed us.

By the way Backwoodsman when Great Britain declared War on Germany in 1939 when did the debate on whether or not we go to war take place? Fact is there was no debate on Great Britain going to war with Germany the decision was taken by the Prime Minister in the name of the Crown.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 11:08 AM

Well said Mr T....Stirring stuff!

Good to see there are still some who believe in OUR country and OUR people.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 11:13 AM

"In a club of 28 (by now) there will always be something or other you don't like. The rational thing to do is to negotiate from within."

Perhaps either Steve Shaw or Backwoodsman could tell us the ways in which the UK has managed to influence or reform the EU from within during the 43 years we've been members. Anthony Charles Lynton Blair had a crack at it when he negotiated away much of our rebate in exchange for the supposed scrapping of the EU Common Agricultural Policy Scheme - This resulted in the UK receiving less rebate yet the CAP sails merrily on. In any negotiation "within" Europe we will always be out-voted.

The EU is a cosy little club specifically run for the benefit of the Germans and the French always was and it always will be.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 11:15 AM

Not suggesting that May should 'reveal her hand' before the negotiations take place - read again, properly this time - I'm saying that, when negotiations are completed and a set of T&Cs are arrived at, democracy dictates that parliament should debate and vote on the acceptability of the deal(s) on offer.

THAT is called Democracy.

And, as the disaster unfolds before us, the daft buggers are still prattling on about 'making our own laws' (which we've always been able to do) and 'taking back control', and crowing, "We won, get over it".

Ever hear the story about Nero and his fiddle?

'Bye now.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 12:00 PM

For the most part you blokes all sound unhappy, dissatisfies and unrepresented.


You would all be much happier with life in today's Germany or Slovenia, if any of you could overcome your programming and false sense of national ego.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 12:25 PM

still some who believe in OUR country and OUR people.

Ja, ja, Ake, & to hell with those foreign untermenschen

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 01:35 PM

Well we certainly won't be taking back control of our borders much. We can't do it for non-EU citizens because we need all those doctors and nurses that somebody else has trained. Likewise, we need some more from the EU too, as well as the skilled and unskilled workers that can do jobs that Brits can't or won't do.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:48 PM

We need to put our own people to work in proper jobs with proper rates of pay.......that will never happen while there is "freedom of movement" on a steeply sloping playing field.

It also involves a huge change in society, and how we value "work"

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:57 PM

Don, we are not nearly as "unrepresented" as you are.
Your political system is an obscene joke.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:42 PM

Joke personalities agree. As for your borders, you are a fuckin island
based on historic classism.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 01:30 AM

Backwoodsman - 26 Oct 16 - 11:15 AM

"Not suggesting that May should 'reveal her hand' before the negotiations take place - read again, properly this time - I'm saying that, when negotiations are completed and a set of T&Cs are arrived at, democracy dictates that parliament should debate and vote on the acceptability of the deal(s) on offer."

We would debate and vote to what purpose Backwoodsman? Once Article 50 has been triggered there is no going back, the terms and conditions arrived at through negotiation with the EU Commission will be final and the UK will find itself unshackled from the governance of Brussels.

Now on the subject of unanswered questions:

If in the US Presidential election a voter turn out of 72.2% came up with a similar result in favour of Hilary Clinton would you then advocate that her majority was insufficient and that Trump should really be given another chance. Or would 51.9% Clinton 48.1% Trump be good enough to make Hilary Clinton the next President of the United States of America?

A turn out of 72% would be extremely high for the USA judging by recent elections where voter turn out has been as follows - 2000, 54.2%; in 2004 60.4%; 2008 62.3%; and 2012 57.5%

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 04:56 AM

Will somebody please put this thread out of it's misery.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 05:46 AM

Try a dose of foul trolling, Stu. Or just bring God into it. Or mention Israel. That should do it!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 08:20 AM

Hell, try all three!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 10:32 AM

My final contribution - for those who don't understand 'Democracy'

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 12:18 PM

From your link Backwoodsman:

"Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.

They include:

The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.

The Human Rights Act 1998.

The UK's entry to the European Union in 1973.

The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.

These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes."

Thanks for that.

Still see that along with the "usual suspects" you are good at asking questions, which I have had the courtesy to answer, while you ignore questions asked of you. Here's a reminder for you:

1: What are you going to debate after the terms and conditions have been agreed?

2: If in the US Presidential election a voter turn out of 72.2% came up with a similar result in favour of Hilary Clinton would you then advocate that her majority was insufficient and that Trump should really be given another chance. Or would 51.9% Clinton 48.1% Trump be good enough to make Hilary Clinton the next President of the United States of America?

But just in case you remained moved to silence:

Answer 1 - nothing to debate it would be a useless talking exercise.

Answer 2 - With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48% in November there will a huge sigh of relief and there will not be a single murmur about minority votes by those who question the Brexit result.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 02:56 PM

Well I answered your numero two by telling you that general elections and an EU in-out referendum are not equivalent and I gave you the reasons. So that makes me no longer a usual suspect.

Talking about keeping cards close to chests, etc., a thousand pairs of industrialists' ears are currently pricked up, as it's clear that Theresa May has promised Nissan something to keep them here, probably some guarantee that she'll soften the tariff blow for them when we leave. She hasn't read your strictures, has she, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 01:52 AM

Now what strictures would they be Shaw?

"With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48%" Will that be good enough?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 09:40 AM

"Voters must be given the chance to change their minds on Brexit, Labour former prime minister Tony Blair has insisted.

Mr Blair said people need to be allowed to give their view on any Brexit divorce deal with the EU, either through a referendum, or general election.

"There is absolutely no reason why we should close off any options. You can't change this decision, unless it becomes clear in one way or another, that the British people have had a change of mind because they have seen the reality of the alternative.

 "We are entitled to carry on scrutinising, and, yes, if necessary, to change our minds, because it seems sensible to us to do so. This is not about an elite over-ruling the people.

Just because this shyster is saying that is the perfect reason why his advice should not be followed. Not surprisingly this would appear to be exactly what Steve Shaw, Backwoodsman and others want.

The 17,410,742 people who voted to leave the EU in no way can be viewed as being "an elite over-ruling the people" This from a "socialist" who has used his position to become a multi-millionaire, who was only prepared to stand down as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in order to become President of Europe - i.e. Head of the "greatest gravy train" on Earth.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:10 AM

Refresh:

""With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48%" Will that be good enough?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:45 AM

No. in four years' time the yanks can change their minds. Once we're out, that's it, whatever you want to pretend. General elections and once-and-for-all referendums are not comparable. I've told you that had the result been a marginal win for Remain, we'd already be seeing campaigns for a rerun, and we'd probably have got one in a few years' time. The same game as the SNP are playing. It can't work the other way round. The referendum was skewed and the thresholds were way too low for leaving. You can keep quoting your seventeen million until you're blue in the face, but forty-six million were registered to vote and twenty-nine million did NOT vote to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:46 AM

I meant no, you're wrong about all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:31 PM

No. in four years' time the yanks can change their minds. Once we're out, that's it, whatever you want to pretend. General elections and once-and-for-all referendums are not comparable. I've told you that had the result been a marginal win for Remain, we'd already be seeing campaigns for a rerun, and we'd probably have got one in a few years' time. The same game as the SNP are playing. It can't work the other way round. The referendum was skewed and the thresholds were way too low for leaving. You can keep quoting your seventeen million until you're blue in the face, but forty-six million were registered to vote and twenty-nine million did NOT vote to leave."

A perfect and totally accurate summation, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:50 PM

No Backwoodsman and Steve Shaw - 46.5 million people were given the opportunity to vote roughly 28% couldn't be bothered one way or the other. Of those who could be bothered to vote more wanted to leave than wanted to remain - both sides can claim the percentage that couldn't be bothered to vote. Those are the facts live with it.

Now answer the question:

"With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48%" Will that be good enough to make Hillary Clinton the next President of the United States of America? - Simple YES or NO will suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:36 PM

Evasive in the extreme. Just over one-third of the electorate have made an irreversible decision on behalf of the one hundred percent of us. They did this on the back of a campaign full of lies and which pandered to their basest xenophobic instincts. There you go.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:59 AM

Answer the question:

With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48%" Will that be good enough to make Hillary Clinton the next President of the United States of America? - Simple YES or NO will suffice.

"Just over one-third of the electorate have made an irreversible decision on behalf of the one hundred percent of us."

All you have done is describe the norm

Population of the United Kingdom (i.e. "the one hundred percent of us") = 65 265 435

UK electorate = 46 500 001 or 71.25% of the population

So in any referendum IF 100% of the electorate votes (Never likely to happen) and the result is close then 36.34% of the electorate, i.e. Just over one-third of the electorate would have made an irreversible decision on behalf of the one hundred percent of us.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:36 AM

"Once we're out, that's it, whatever you want to pretend."

Idiotic and inaccurate statement.

We most certainly will be out of the EU once Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty has been put in motion. That does not necessarily mean that we will be out of Europe.

Having triggered Article 50 and having left the EU there is nothing that stops us reapplying for membership at some point in the future although I cannot for the life of me think why we would ever want to do that.

The "doom'n'gloom" predictions have all proved false, our economy continues to grow and outperform that of the EU, who over the past five years have not managed to solve any of their underlying problems. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the pronouncements of Merkel or Hollande as neither might be in power come the time we actually leave. The EU is in dire need of reform and has been in that state for decades yet it has not budged one inch (or 2.54cm) down that route to reform itself. The greatest fear of the EU Commission at the moment is who else is going to follow the UK's lead and leave next.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:55 AM

Your last point is the very reason we are not going to get a good deal. As for the rest of your post, well, none so blind... And will you give over with your Clinton guff. General elections are not the same thing as referendums and no amount of your silly repetitions will change that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:22 AM

Amen Steve. Let's bugger off to the pub and leave 'im to his delusions. First one there gets 'em in.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:25 AM

Well I have a bad leg, you see... 🍻

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM

Oh OK, I'll get 'em in! 😄

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 01:13 AM

"And will you give over with your Clinton guff. General elections are not the same thing as referendums and no amount of your silly repetitions will change that fact." - Steve Shaw

What "General Election" is Clinton involved in Shaw?

National Referendum = One question with a straightforward choice is put before the electorate of the country and as a result of that a decision is reached.

US Presidential Election = One question involving a straightforward choice of which candidate you want to vote for is put before the electorates of each State and as a result of that a decision is reached as to who will become the next President of the United States of America.

So I will ask you again:

"With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48%" - Will that be good enough to make Hillary Clinton the next President of the United States of America? - Simple YES or NO will suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:22 AM

Well...yes and no....

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:29 AM

General election - incorrect term for the US presidential election, agreed. It doesn't change my argument.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:57 AM

You're wriggling Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:19 AM

I've just admitted a mistake. How is that wriggling? I've answered the statistics stuff you are obsessively throwing at us until I'm blue in the face. Can't you think of something different now and move on?

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 06:55 AM

"With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48%" - Will that be good enough to make Hillary Clinton the next President of the United States of America? - Simple YES or NO will suffice.

Your "Well...yes and no.... " is a wriggling cop out and you know it. On the Brexit Referendum had the vote gone the other by exactly the same margin there would never have been a peep out of you, Carroll, Stu, et al.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 09:29 AM

It was not a wriggling cop-out. All this has been fully addressed in the thread. Go and look. What it actually was was me taking the piss. Now stop parroting out the same senseless question and think of something else, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:58 AM

"With an average US voter turn-out of 58.6% if Hillary Clinton wins by a margin of 52% to 48%" - Will that be good enough to make Hillary Clinton the next President of the United States of America? - Simple YES or NO will suffice.

That "senseless question" that you and your fellow travellers seem to be incapable of answering because you know damn well that in any democratic country that holds free and fair elections, or, plebiscites the answer is an unequivocal YES

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 10:13 AM

I have patiently explained to you why "plebiscites" and general/presidential elections are not equivalent. I have patiently explained to you why our referendum was so skewed that an unqualified simple majority was inappropriate, why the bar for turnout and voting outcome was set way too low. You are ignoring that and trying to barge through all the arguments with your simplistic, one-size-fits-all bluster. Now you don't like people putting words in your mouth, but I'm just wondering how you'd react if teachers voted, though with a low turnout, to go on strike...

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 11:02 AM

"peep out of you, Carroll, Stu, et al."
Again, you lie about this - your metier nowadays.
I made my position clear on Europe at the very beginning - I voted against it when it was put to the vote, I have always mistruded it as an organisation of Capitalist States and I posted heavily when the Greek situation raised its ugly head - made a few enemies among toy fascists when I did.
My attitude is as it was from the beginning - it is a gathering of capitalist states co-operating among themselves to do the best in their own national interests.
Until the world becomes a better place, it is the best option we have at the present time.
Brexit was fought on a racist, 'Little England'ticket - no thought was given for the consequences as long as we could stop forigners entering Britain.
Britain has swung sharply to the right in the short time since the referendum - an increase in racist hate crimes being one of the results of this.
Without introducing too fractious a subject, an acceleration in antisemitism is part of this increase - antisemitism has always been the domain of the right - (though, to be fair, the situation hasn't been helped by the Israeli regime using the Jewish People as human shields to protect itself from having to face war crimes charges)
You accuse Steve of wiggling, yet you refuse to respond to any fact put up in front of you on the outcome of Britain leaving Europe - it doesn't matter to you if British workers can no longer go to Europe for work - more fuel for your hatred and contempt of the less well off.
Brexit has raised problem after problem for the ordinary people of Britain and it has been given as expert opinion that it will be at least a decade before the economy becomes steady again - as little good as that will do for working people .
I doubt if you will even bother "wiggling" on this - you usually ignore what doesn't suit your extremist right-wing agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 11:18 AM

"...there would never have been a peep out of you, Carroll, Stu, et al."

I'm willing to admit this is true. However I'm guessing we might have heard more than a peep out of yourself, Ake, Farage et al.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 11:36 AM

If the referendum had gone the other way the losers woulld undoubtely have been crying foul, and demanding another referenendum.

The difference would be that the suggestion that somehow another referendum would be in any way an affront to democracy would be recognised as absurd. No more so than another election. Democracy means if you lose one time you work to try to win next time.

Even when a couple get divorced that's conditional. There's a "decree nisi", but the divorce doesn't happen unless they confirm they still wish to go ahead, and a "decree absolute" is made. I strongly suspect that if we had a chance to vote whether to go ahead with Brexit we'd vote to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:32 PM

I'm sure we would. As you say, there would be clamour for a rerun. That's very easy to do at any time with a remain win, but to all intents and purposes impossible once Article 50 is enforced with the leave vote. That's why the referendum was skewed and that's why it can't be compared to a general/presidential election. The winning line for leaving was set way too far back. We're called remoaners and undemocratic by the crowing brexiteers. The truth is that the democratic deficit lies squarely in their court. Still, they won't be crowing for much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:03 AM

The High Court have just ruled that there must be a parliamentary vote before May can trigger Art. 50.

Thank god for judges with common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:50 AM

.....And an understanding of the democratic principle of Parliamentary Sovreignty.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 06:01 AM

I wouldn't bet on the Supreme Court throwing out the appeal. Brace yourself for another "appalling vista" moment. If the judgement sticks, though, things are going to get very interesting. Fingers crossed for a massive kick up the fundament for these arrogant Tory bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 06:07 AM

And wasn't it wonderful to see Sajid Javid making a complete twat of himself on Question Time over the court ruling and brexit. A bloke who shouldn't even be in charge of a chippie.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 06:36 AM

"wasn't it wonderful to see Sajid Javid making a complete twat of himself on Question Time over the court ruling and brexit"
And wasn't it heart-warming to see the contemptuous response from the audience, especially about the Orgreve fit-up - in Luton, of all places!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:06 AM

The Orgreave decision is a bloody scandal. Ninety-five people dragged through the courts on jumped-up evidence after a conflict for which the Prime Minister had ordered, in advance, the police to behave like soldiers. Organised police violence in order to teach the miners a lesson. Lies, perjury and more lies, a deliberate attempt by the Tories to demonise trade unionists. Not in the public interest? I should bloody coco. Not in the Tories' interests more like, and definitely not in the interests of Thatcher's "legacy."

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:37 AM

The Brexiters are having a duck fit about the high court ruling. They seem now to dismiss the rule of law within the country, declaring the judiciary "Enemies of the People" (like a certain bunch did in the 1930's) which in itself is dangerous if not outright stupid. Should we ignore all judgements from the courts, or just the ones we don't like? Some folk will have a whale of a time with that.

As the judgement reinforces parliamentary sovereignty, something our Brexiter friends seems very keen on, the display of swivel-eyed hypocrisy from them as they cough and splutter as they now wish to deny any parliamentary scrutiny over a process instigated through a referendum that was only ever advisory.

The mob is baying.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:16 AM

The dozy buggers voted for 'Sovreignty', but they hadn't a clue what they were voting for.

I'll risk my post being deleted, by quoting The Muskets - "Thick Cunts"!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:37 AM

Oh, I always thought he meant "Top Cat"...🤓

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:53 AM

Just to correct myself, 95 pickets were charged with riot or unlawful assembly. Not all of them were actually dragged through the courts, as I said before.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 01:07 PM

Maybe it's me that misunderstood the Muskets' 'TC', Steve. 😎

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM

I think he may have typed it in full once or twice. Let's ask Keith...

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 03:36 PM

LOL!
He's also said it in full when we were discussing 'certain persons' in the pub!

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Hollowfox
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:00 PM

I can't say I trust any politicians; I live in a town famous for corruption and machine politics. Every four years the wannabees come by and indulge in the fantasy that they care about us, give a $#@! about us, will do things to make things better, etc. You have to kick them out of the way to get through the parking lot. Being named a battleground state isn't helping. As for myself, I figure if Hillary wins, we'll probably get the sameold sameold. If Donald wins, we'll get something like Mussolini, on a good day, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:57 PM

I wouldn't trust the UK parliament or the House of Lords with the keys of my work van!

Did Labour MP's behave in a parliamentary fashion when instigating their coup against Mr Corbyn?.....did they fuck.

The people deserve better than these self obsessed fools, they are in parliament to engineer a lucrative career, here and in Europe.

Mrs May is the prime minister of the UK, and as such she and her team should mould the type of deal which they think will be of most value to the UK.   The careerists should be kept away from important decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM

Well thanks for raising the intellectual tone of the debate to new heights, akenaton.


Alternatively,


Christ on a bloody bike...

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Stu
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 06:15 PM

May is unelected and Brexiters a e now challenging the rule of law. Time to get a grip and grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: From my eyes Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 06:32 PM

Brexiters are now challenging the rule of law

NOW ?