BS: What does post-truth mean

Subject: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 07:02 AM

Is post truth a denial of reality, or an attempt to hijack reality?

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 07:43 AM

At its best, it is recognising that almost all the time we are working with incomplete information and that we may have to contend with conflicting accounts of what happened and people may have genuinely differing perceptions of what occurred.


Unfortunely much of the time it is not "at its best" and it is a deliberate attempt to distort and mislead by denigrating rational and considered approaches in favour of a shallow non reflective gut response.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 09:47 AM

It means Trumpism, and vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: meself
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 10:47 AM

It means that public figures can tell whatever lies they want to, and as long as people want to believe the lies, it doesn't matter if the lies are exposed as lies - people will still believe the lies, or at least, not hold them against the liar. So - truth doesn't matter any more; hence, 'post-truth'. Trump has established the notion that there is no more shame in lying than in, say, mocking the disabled; the only shame is in losing. The only thing that matters is winning - it doesn't matter how you do it.

There's also the notion in there that you can always find someone on the internet or on social media who will provide arguments, however ludicrous, to support the lie you want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 11:08 AM

"Post-truth" has been used to refer recent political debates which rely more on emotion than facts.

As such, the word is no more reasonable than the arguments it despises. Because what does post-truth really indicate? It indicates something that happened after the truth; i.e, after the revelation, the discovery, or the confession.

It belongs in the same category of oft-quoted, ill-defined words such as supply-side, postmodern and ironic.

Pfui

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 11:28 AM

Sounds to me like a description of social "liberalism"

"Relies more on emotion than facts".....Proscribes certain words and inconvenient views.


Heap of shite.... literally.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 11:31 AM

The payoff of the students of the Trump University case is a good example of poat-truth activity, albeit one that has occurred in law for ever. By virtue of the out of court settlement it becomes "no longer interesting" whether the University was fraudulent or not.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 11:33 AM

No way to aalk about your man Trump, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:14 PM

It's a synonym for lying.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:18 PM

Ha you beat me to it McGrath! I was about to post the same thing. Things are either True or False. One either tells The Truth or one tells Lies.
There isn't in my view a middle ground, unless one lacks any sort of integrity of course..... er.....wait a minute......

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 01:37 PM

the only shame is in losing. The only thing that matters is winning - it doesn't matter how you do it.

Just like some on here!

Sorry, couldn't resist :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 02:30 PM

It means Trumpism, and vice versa.

I disagree. While there has probably been some intentional misinformation originated by Trump supporters, most is created by people with no political agenda. Their goal is to generate advertising revenue through page views and clicks. An outlandish claim about a politician is guaranteed to generate page views from both supporters and detractors. Both sides are being played by people who create lies for money.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 02:42 PM

See Carroll's and Shaw's posts on the anti-Semitism thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 02:45 PM

Some people in the UK say that we can continue to accept almost 400,000 foreign immigrants per year for ever.......this is a "post truth statement", it is an obvious lie.
I and others here say that we must be able to control the numbers coming in as our infrastructure is already crumbling.....truth.

The first statement is more than a lie and becomes "post truth" as it relies upon the myth that it is just the (right, moral, liberal) thing to do, therefore it MUST be true.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 03:44 PM

There are around 7.5 billion people on our little world. It does not matter where they live. The main point is that they are all entitled TO live. The resources on the planet are the same wherever they lay their head. That is not 'post-truth'. It is a simple fact. Sorry if it does not fit in with some peoples nationalistic ideals.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 04:40 PM

While there has probably been some intentional misinformation originated by Trump supporters

You seem to be forgetting the mountain of lies and BS which originated directly from Trump himself and his campaign team of professional liars like Giuliani.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 05:30 PM

Things are either True or False

Strictlly speaking that is not quite correct. Predictions about the future cannot at the time they are made be either true or false, because the future hasn't happened yet. In time it will turn out whether they were correct or false.

However a statement about how someone plans to act in the future is going to be true or false - it's not a statement about the future, but about that person ( or that organisation) intends to act). The same thing applies when it's a matter of predicting events, and basing that on a claim that currently availability evidence indicates that as justifying that prediction.

The complication is that it is possible to change one's mind, so just because someone does not do what they said they would do, that does not necessarily mean that they were lying. But if they actually had no intention of keeping their word, that would have been a lie.

All this provides a certain amount of wriggle room for politicians (or for the rest of us).

But this has nothing to do with "post-truth"

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 05:49 PM

But if they actually had no intention of keeping their word, that would have been a lie.

vide Trump.

See also "post-intelligence".

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 10:12 PM

Read it and laugh/weep:

I think Donald Trump is in the White House Because of Me

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 04:34 AM

Post truth = Farcebook

ever wondered why already friends want to be your friend?

Those cloned accounts are designed to look genuine, and need genuine peeps as friends. That way "whoever" can push their message. Be it commerce, or politics.

See "Arab spring", see Brexit, See Trump

(other social media are available)

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 04:58 AM

It is easy, but I think a mistake, to turn this into a Trump thread. He uses it to his advantage, certainly, but it a much bigger problem than him [unless he decides to blow the whole world up: there is a maximum size of problem].

I would say a more accurate term would be the acquiescent individual. Through a whole range of systems - including an education based on regurgitation of "correct" answers and a working environment where front line staff have no authority - people are trained to mindlessly and uncritically accept what they hear or read. To take a Trip example: that famous tape. Now, I think that is genuine as I guess most of you do. But when I examine critically what evidence I have it is very thin. The strongest evidence is the Trump spoke to thousands at rallies and spoke.about it. Or so I am told. Anyone who attended such a rally has evidence. Mine is very second hand.

But wasn't it always like this? To some extent, yes, but the real brake in the past was the need to have a conspiracy: too many people are needed to maintain it. But now? Most news reports come from effectively a single source, Reuters, and few newspapers or channels do much in the way of genuinely independent research. We have seen how a single guy can concoct a fake story with the same currency as a genuine one. The problem of determining whether something is true or not has grown enormously and we have trained people not to critically assess them.

Let me give a simple noncontentious example. Yesterday I got a post saying "key fobs like one in the attached photo are being given out at supermarkets. Do not accept one because it contains a tag that criminals could use to track you home".
OK, such technology exists. But is it reasonable to imagine your ordinary criminal doing this? The equivalent technology exists in your mobile without going to that hassle. The tags are cheap but the detectors are not. What would the ordinary criminal gain by making that investment? Unless the criminal is targetting you personally, why do they need to know where you live? And if they do isn't following you simpler?

So anyone who pauses for thought is going to decide the story is probably fake. The heart of the problem is people do not pause.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 07:07 AM

Isnt the same as "The check is in the post"
Or maybe "Aye that'l be right"
Ps deliberate use of US Spelling

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Stu
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 10:03 AM

The real problem with the post-truth world is a fair proportion of the populace doesn't seem to care that they are not being told the truth. All our newspapers and media outlets owned by a rich offshore billionaire or two are the pedlars of lies, we all know this but no-one really seems to give damn.

Our politicians are pretty much worthless these days, many being outright liars of the worst type. Trump, Farage, Cameron, Blair, Osbourne represent the worst of these, but still many defend their lies and exaggerations as if it this is fine... unbelievable. The Brexit campaigns of both sides was a web of lies, obsfucation and misdirection yet questioning this is now dismissed with a wave of the hand and a putdown.

This is partly our fault as a society; we must question everything, demand the provenance of facts is stated clearly and take nothing on face value.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 10:23 AM

I think post truth is a belief system predicated on a total belief of the version of reality peddled by the mainstream. That people are waking up to this is causing the backlash against alternative news sites. Some tell an approximation of the truth, some give oxygen to the views of the far out and freaky. That the mainstream media are attempting to lump them all together as purveyors of lies and to close them down would suggest that some are gaining too great an audience. To deviate from truespeak is a no-no in this brave new world.
    The sheople must swallow the cod liver oil fed to them by the MSM
pointy heads.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 01:59 PM

Jon Stewart on What Makes America Great

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: JHW
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 06:02 AM

It means not lying on threads like these

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 09:36 AM

Most news reports come from effectively a single source, Reuters,

News per se may do, but what people see and read comes from social media as well, and Goggle & Farcebook are spouting noises about controlling the purveyors of fake news. That in itself is censorship. Benign maybe and we demand it. Oh, the irony!

And just how many media peeps are on Farcebook and Twatter and are also inculcated thereby? The constant drip, drip. And I didn't refer to the media types but the pun can stay.

Beware what you wish for, Farcebook is largely harmless, but when it isn't the impact far outweighs the benefits IMNSHO.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 09:52 AM

I agree, Mr Red. I should have been clearer I was referring to the traditional media being more or less single sourced, not social media.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:00 AM

Sadly there is no easy way to sort truth from fiction, spin, and blatant propaganda in this digital age. Checking multiple sources with multiple agendas and sifting the results according to your own belief system would seem to be the only way forward, but even that gives no guarantees. RT and CNN probably represent two extremes, but which organ purveys the more reliable truth rather depends on the content.
Now each news source has to colour it's content to the wishes of it's political paymasters. Portrayal of the truth has no part in this process.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:11 AM

I look at it this way.

If a statement was once true but now is not, for example "the current year is 1980", the statement's status is post-truth.

I evaluate all uses of the phrase in the same way.

But then I like to be logical.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:13 AM

Farcebook is largely harmless

Farcebook elected Trump and enabled/es Trumpists.

I don't call that "harmless".

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:38 AM

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned Orwell's 1984. The basic premise is "Truth is what we say it is and is subject to change without notice."

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 12:50 PM

It seems no one here has ever accepted my life long discovery/perception how vulnerable the human race is to hypnosis which is the sum total of all the phenomena that you have so far been shocked by or complained about.

It is vital we have an understanding of the way our minds are enhanced and manipulated by simple means. Its what are minds do.

It has been said that children should be taught finances at an early age. It is just as important as teaching the manifestations of hypnosis. Perhaps you heard how Hitler hypnotized his crowds?
The path to immunity is education.

At least with drugs you are given a choice. , opinion and personal judgement.


While only 22% are highly vulnerable to hypnosis, 100% BELIEVE THEMSELVES immune to its effects on grounds they have free will.

One only needs the promise of positive motivation to undergo therapeutic hypnosis. Its negative counterpart has many more induction techniques and entry points.


Perhaps now at long last someone will consider the outrageous truth of what I have been saying. On a personal level I am a bit disappointed in the lack of simple clarity regaring this phenomena.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM

I certainly accept the vulnerability of people in groups to powerful orators and to peer pressure to behave in certain ways, including accepting certain ideas as "right", Donuel. I have a number of reservations about calling it hypnosis, though. Three of these are
(a) giving something a name fools some people into thinking we know what it is. (I know you are a Richard Feynman fan, so see his discussion with his father on naming a bird species.)
(b) there are a least two "mind states": one is passively accepting what 'your side' says, the other is using every mental faculty you have to defend it from attack. I am not sure a single term adequately covers both.
(c) in so far as people find 'hypnosis' a useful metaphor, all well and good. But I think other metaphors will work better for other people.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 08:00 PM

tomato tomato potato potato

EBarnacle mentioned 1984.*

*better than a sack of'nostrodamuses'.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 01:55 PM

Post-truth is just a rip-off of 'Truthiness'

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 05:28 AM

But then I like to be logical.

Preçactly! I write computer programs, have advised patent writers, but, and it is the real butt...............

We don't necessarily know when we are wrong. confirmation bias, motivated reasoning, Dunning Kruger effect - nobody is immune. The trick is keeping that as a mantra. All we can hope for is less probability of getting it skewed.

Another epithet that (please forgive me for pointing him out) Donald Rumpsfelt sic hinted at:

Knowledge knows what it knows, intelligence knows when it doesn't

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:23 AM

Good points from AC Grayling.

In my opinion that is.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:34 AM

They used t say History is made by the victors Now it is set before the fact.

With the pace of information dissemination we have all found it difficult to cogitate and digest the words and see the joins.

Farcebook and Twatter are foremost in that. With the internet it was becoming apparent (to me anyway) that too many with an agenda were filling the thing up with crap. Social media does that faster.

people do not scrutinise, that which they are glad to hear. is a telling quote from Joe Nickell

I keep saying it, maybe it will stick. Farcebook is GOSSIP.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:56 AM

"ever wondered why already friends want to be your friend?"
Nicely summed up by English comedian, Dave Gorman as "a collection of imaginary friends"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 03:59 AM

Best and most sensible post on this thread so far - McGrath of Harlow - 19 Nov 16 - 05:30 PM

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:00 AM

Another good article from Ian Hislop writing in the 'New Statesman'.

Just more opinion of course but an interesting and enjoyable read with lots of things about Orwell that I did not know.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:01 AM

Post Truth?

Pizza Ping Pong.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Stu
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:38 AM

"On a personal level I am a bit disappointed in the lack of simple clarity regaring this phenomena."

Write it up in a paper, submit it to an appropriate and respectable peer-reviewed journal in and publish. Then we can all understand how you arrived at this conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:54 AM

Thanks for the link to Ian Hislop. I think Orwell, one of the most important writers to explain the twisted politics of the 20th Century, maintains his importance in the 21st.

The latest expression of the ILLOGIC OF THE TIME is the explanation of Trump's success as follows:

"The media took him literally but not seriously. His supporters took him seriously but not literally."

And I am reminded of the quote from Ayn Rand:

"We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 12:57 PM

But thank God, we can ignore the Fountainhead of Bullshit produced by Ayn Rand.

Subject: RE: BS: What does post-truth mean
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:05 PM

Damn, Grekkk, I was gonna send you a set of Ayn Rand for KKKmas!