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Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
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Subject: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 06:32 AM He defied the yanks for half a century having kicked out the thugs they supported (so what's new?), and, if only I could stop there, it would almost amount to a mini-hagiography. But he could be ruthless and was no democrat. Good things happened in Cuba with regard to health care, agriculture and education, even in the teeth of the spiteful embargo. So maybe I'll have to overlook the fact that he had the superpowers putting the shits up all of us and wasn't too nice to his adversaries. I'll raise half a glass to him tonight! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Senoufou Date: 26 Nov 16 - 06:38 AM I believe he was 90 years old. Amazing that he was still about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:01 AM The passing of an era. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:16 AM Shortly after coming to power in 1959, a heavily whiskered Fidel Castro informed the American journalist Edward R. Murrow that, "when we have fulfilled our promise of good government, I will cut my beard." For over half a century the Cuban people waited on the fulfillment of both those promises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: akenaton Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM Not really the end of an era, a lot of small countries will have no option but to adopt the Cuban template very soon. Very nicely said Steve.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Stu Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:43 AM RIP Fray Bentos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM a lot of small countries will have no option but to adopt the Cuban template very soon. And end up in the the toilet just like Venezuela. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Bonzo3legs Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM Good riddance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:22 AM Well I didn't exactly expect a string of eulogies, but something a bit more measured than "good riddance" would be good. Perhaps you're yearning for a return to something like a Fulgencio Batista regime. Yeah, that would keep those pesky third-worlders in line... |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:33 AM Castro's Cuba held the most powerful and aggressive State in the world, 90 miles off its shores, at arms length for half a century - that, apart from lifting the country output of american-backed fascism - that ought to be worth a chest-ful f medals, at least. Personally, Castro survived 87 C.I.A. assassination attempts and the country suppressed one abortive invasions - again, supported and armed by the world's most powerful and aggressive State, 90 miles off its shores. It has survived a 4+ decade long embargo, imposed by the U.S. and slavishly followed by 'The Fee World' (sic) In those circumstances, it is a bit unreal to expect an open and free society to develop naturally - the new State has been in a permanent state of siege for most of it's conversion from the "America's open sewer' that it was, to what it has become now. Some years ago, I watched a documentary on those sadly pathetic exiles who backed the Bay of Pigs fiasco - still proudly claiming that, on Castro's death, Cuba would be returned to its rightful owners - the handful of families who allowed Cuba to be used as a brothel and money-launderer for the scum of the earth - from Al Capone down. I am not surprised that Bobad has added Cuba to his hit-list of States that don't bow down to the rich and powerful of the world Bozo- No Brain is where he always has been - the rightest of right. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:35 AM Should of added, it shouldn't be too long now before Ake makes up the trio Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:55 AM I am not surprised that Bobad has added Cuba to his hit-list of States that don't bow down to the rich and powerful of the world.... And I am not surprised that Carroll would fawn over a repressive dictator who ruled his people by terror. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:04 AM "who ruled his people by terror." And is now to be celebrated by those he "terrorised" for five days. Cuba has the most advanced education system and health service in the whole of Latin America - those who wish to "return it to its rightful owners" have promised that they will dismantle both when they win Cuba back. One of the Golden Rules of State terrorism is that you never, ever educate those you wish to terrorise, nor do you expend too much effort in keeping them healthy. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: EBarnacle Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:08 AM Sounds like Trumpism, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:09 AM A HISTORY of U.S, POLICY TOWARDS CUBA Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Greg F. Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:24 AM Your boy Trump's pretty good at fawning over Putin, Bubo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:46 AM Cuba has the most advanced education system and health service in the whole of Latin America When you take away peoples' rights and freedoms you better give them something in return - even the most repressive dictators know that they won't last long if they don't. There are plenty countries with advanced education and health systems that don't rule by terror. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:57 AM Your boy Trump's..... Right, just like your boy is David Duke.....idiot! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:09 AM I was not aware that Castro "ruled by terror." Idle talk driven by prejudice. Grow up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:13 AM "When you take away peoples' rights and freedoms you better give them something in return " When a people has lived i mass poverty and repression throughout its history, any advancement will need to be made without outside interference - shortly after the seizure of power by the revolutionaries, Cuba has suffered a barrage of deadly opposition from its nearest neighbour. Cuba was virtually a slave state where American tourists went to watch the women be fucked by donkeys - should those waiting in the wings get their way, that is what it will return to. It is only recently that Obama has lifted the ban on rum and cigars - he proposed that the lifting of the rest of the 50 year old embargo be considered by congress - your friend Trump is unlikely to allow that to happen. There may be plenty of countries who don't rule by "terror" (odd word for a supporter of the world's most dangerous terrorist State), but there none anywhere on the planet who have been under threat by the World's most powerful state who have constantly attempted to bring down its leadership through terrorist measures and have used nearly all of that half century to starve the people into submission. Cuba has its democratic shortcomings, but which country on the planet doesn't? It's threatening nearest neighbour has just elected a fascist, racist, misogynist, politically-illiterate thug as president, and Britain will follow that thug just like a pet poodle - how 'democratic' is that? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: leeneia Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:21 AM Some years ago, the husband of a co-worker of mine was going back to Cuba to visit family. His suitcase was extremely heavy. He showed his wife what was in it: nothing but bars of Dial soap, which would be valuable in Cuba. He explained that every family got one bar of poor-quality soap a month. And you try to tell me that people had good health care? and education? In a country that did not provide soap? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:29 AM I was not aware that Castro "ruled by terror." According to Castro's own estimates, at one point there were as many as 15,000 political prisoners in Cuba. One of the darkest periods of the repression occurred in 1963 when Castro approved "Operation P," named because of a black "P" (for pimps, prostitutes, pederasts) emblazoned on the uniforms of those arrested. The operation saw Castro's newly formed secret police sweep through Havana targeting homosexuals, religious believers, and "deviants"—often no more than men with long hair and blue jeans. Those rounded up were placed in UMAPs (Military Units to Help Production), a euphemism for concentration camps, and forced to do hard labor. According to the poet Armando Valladares, imprisoned by Castro in 1960, "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." These are just a few examples, there are many more if you care to look. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/26/adios-caudillo-fidel-castro-dead-at-90.html?source=TDB&via=FB_Page>The Daily Beast |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:32 AM "And you try to tell me that people had good health care? and education?" I don#t tell you anything - it is a long accepted and established fact - look it up. Shortages of certain commodities by a country subjected to a fifty-year old embargo, prove nothing, I'm afraid. It's strange to look at what happened to the countries that shook of the chains of repression' since the fall of communism - Russia and former Yugoslavia, being prime examples - Putin and mass genocide freeodom - I hardly think so! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:50 AM " "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." "Havana targeting homosexuals," "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." "One of the darkest periods of the repression occurred in 1963" In 1963, homosexuality was a crime in Britain, and remained so for another four years. Castro Government had one hell of a mess to clean up after the defeat of America's puppet - pro revolutionary Cuba was wher the U.S. perverts of every shape and delectation went to 'fulfil their desires' That excesses took place is hardly a surprising reaction "a euphemism for concentration camps," The only concentration camp on Cuba today is on Guantanamo Bay - run by ???? Certainly not the Cubans Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Greg F. Date: 26 Nov 16 - 12:00 PM Right, just like your boy is David Duke Actually, Bubo, Duke is Trump's boy & vice versa. And you try to tell me that people had good health care? and education? Much better than poor folks in general in the U.S., Leeneia. Check out Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Detroit........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 12:21 PM Further to above - homosexual acts in parts of the United States remained a criminal offence until 2014. The law repealing enforced chemical castration for homosexuality was not repealed until 1967 Wonder how this fits in with Bobad's "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: kendall Date: 26 Nov 16 - 02:39 PM How many of us remember F. Baptista? owned by the Mafia, corrupt to the core. I was in Cuba in 1956 before the revolution. Baptistas armed thugs patrolling the streets with AK 47s. Not a fun place to be. Just another country that had wanted we wanted so, Randolph Hurst talked President McKinley into starting a war. The Cubans did not blow up the Maine. It was proven years later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: akenaton Date: 26 Nov 16 - 03:24 PM The confinement of homosexual in sanatoria was to combat the epidemic of HIV/AIDS which was taking place worldwide. The policy resulted in the lowest rates of hiv infection anywhere in the world. The rates have since been slowly rising but are nowhere near infection rates in UK or USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: akenaton Date: 26 Nov 16 - 03:25 PM In all probability, the policy saved the lives of thousands of homosexuals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Nov 16 - 04:08 PM Interesting to note the difference between the statements from the president elect and the president on his way out. I know which one shows most humanity. Also interesting to note that like seems to attract like. I could also save thousands of lives. Maybe if we stopped all people with Down's syndrome from procreating we could eliminate that disease. Or if we killed all those with cystic fibrosis at birth it would save a lot of heartache. Or maybe those with brown eyes... Or those with black skin... Some of the comments on here just make me sick. Sorry. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:13 PM "The confinement of homosexual in sanatoria was to combat the epidemic of HIV/AIDS which was taking place worldwide...In all probability, the policy saved the lives of thousands of homosexuals." Well we'd save a whole lot more lives by banning childbirth, banning alcohol, banning Big Macs, banning fags, banning pork belly, banning people from going up ladders, banning cars, banning diesel, banning military aid to Israel, banning weaopns sales to Saudi, banning the DWP, banning air-conditioning...stop me somebody... But you've picked on homosexual love. You sad bugger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:19 PM I could also save thousands of lives. Maybe if we stopped all people with Down's syndrome from procreating we could eliminate that disease. Or if we killed all those with cystic fibrosis at birth it would save a lot of heartache. It doesn't work like that with Down's syndrome - it's people who haven't got it who have Down's syndrome babies. But of course wer're working hard as a society to eliminate people with Down's syndrome in other ways. Plus people with cystic fibrosis and a lot more... Down's Syndrome is not "a disease". It's a way of being human. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Bonzo3legs Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:32 PM "Well I didn't exactly expect a string of eulogies, but something a bit more measured than "good riddance" would be good. Perhaps you're yearning for a return to something like a Fulgencio Batista regime. Yeah, that would keep those pesky third-worlders in line... " Crikey, Batista wasn't exactly a bundle of fun was he, seems like the Cubans may have been slightly better off under Castro!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 06:18 PM Well yeah, "slightly" doesn't cut it! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:13 PM I renamed this to an obituary thread because I don't think we need two separate threads to mark his death. Can't say I always agreed with what he did, but he certainly did a good job of reminding us Americans of our hypocrisy. I think that for the most part, he was good for Cuba, and he was good for the Americas. I wish we could have had a more cordial relationship with him. That would have been of benefit to both nations. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:38 PM We didn't have two threads, did we? I checked in case someone had beaten me to it before posting this thread. Still, I may be bemused but I'm not bothered.
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:47 PM It's somewhat ironic that Trump has called Castro a brutal dictator when it was the US who propped up the vicious and corrupt Batista regime for years before Castro eventually got rid of it. Castro failed in his promise to make Cuba democratic, but he achieved a lot for his people in spite of desperate and repeated attempts by the US to undermine him or even assassinate him, and in spite of that dismal embargo. I tend to get indigestion whenever I hear US politicians criticise anyone else at all for human rights abuses. That is hypocrisy of the highest order. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: The Sandman Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:47 PM I think he was great. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:50 PM Well I think he was a lot more good than bad, but it does behove us to acknowledge that he was less then perfect in many regards. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: robomatic Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:48 PM Reinaldo Arenas described his experiences of artistic and homophobic persecution in Cuba in "Before Night Falls" and described his personal perception as follows: "the difference between the communist and capitalist systems is that, although both give you a kick in the ass, in the communist system you have to applaud, while in the capitalist system you can scream. And I came here to scream" Castro can best be described as a predictable disappointment. He came to power lying about his objectives and pursued a despotic rule where his opinion of right and wrong was made to suffice for an entire people. He was ably lampooned by Woody Allen in Bananas as the revolutionary leader who went bonkers with success who commands: "In addition to that, all citizens will be required to change their underwear every half-hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check." Leaders like Castro, Mugabe, DaEsh, and the Kim ils suck all the air out of the room, institute rules that are not only cruel but BORING, and make average humans sorry to be alive and rob them of hope for their children. Perdition to 'em all! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:47 AM There's no reason to be so confident that "he came to power lying about his objectives". It seems more likely that faced with reality of persistant hostility from the US his expectations of what was possible and what was necessary changed. During World War Two, Britain too was a dictatorship in all kinds of ways. But after six years it was over. With Cuba the condition of wartime persisted for generations, and is only starting to relax now (and very much under threat of that reversing now). As Jim points out the attitudes towards homosexuality in the 1960s were very much in line with those in the US and Britain and other countries, including the threat of imprisonment. Castro's attitude was totally characteristic of the time. Indeed if Cuba had been out of line and as accepting as present society is, that have been used as another reason to condemn the regime - and would not have gone down well with Cuba's desperateely needed lifeline, the USSR. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM Strange that the people here mentioning the "embargo" and offering it up as the catch all excuse for the ills of Cuba fail to mention the fact that from 1959 until 1991 Cuba was massively supported and kept afloat by the U.S.S.R. The only relaxation of repression came once the U.S.S.R. collapsed and Cuba internationally had to be seen as cleaning it's act up. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:49 AM "Cuba was massively supported and kept afloat by the U.S.S.R." It was not - Russia bought some of their sugar - not enough to make a significant difference. The aftermath of the Cuban missile Crisis precluded any more involvement than that. Cuba needed to evolve from a basically poor rural economy into a self-supporting country with industries of its own. The small amount of income it got from Russia only managed it to keep its head above water - just. I really don't see too many eulogies for Castro here Bozo - rather, it is an attempt to discuss the achievements and failures of Cuba as a nation and could do without the mindless, right-wing snide. Castro had his faults, but whatever they were, it was the world-wide embargo of its goods that kept it poverty-stricken. That Cold War embargo still exists log after the fall of world Communism - the melting of it began with Obama but don't stand a chance in the mind-freezing fascism of Trump's America. I'd like to agree with Ake's 'Aids' comments, but I'm afraid the morality clampdown came before the 'Gay Plague' hysteria. The clampdown came to break with Batista's allowing the development of a society which freely used sex as a tourist attraction for rich Americans. The partial clampdown on the church had one eye on the use made of religion to suppress and enslave peoples throughout Latin and South America - as the ghost of Archbishop Romero and the raped and murdered Salvadorian nuns, if you want to check. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Hrothgar Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:54 AM I don't want to get into the argument, but I would like to tell this story. In around late 1959 or early 1960 (very soon after Castro came to power, anyway) the Reader's Digest, which can be fairly be described as leaning to the right, had a laudatory article about the heroic revolutionaries who had toppled the brutal dictator, Batista. ... then they found out they were Commies ... I laughed until the tears ran down my leg. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:09 AM Down's Syndrome is not "a disease". It's a way of being human. I know that, Kevin, and you know that and we also know that homosexuality is not a disease but there are those on here and elsewhere that believe that can be cured or treated as well. Usually by restricting their rights - Hence my reference to restricting the rights of people with Downs in my post. Apologies I that I did not make that clear in my 26 Nov 16 - 04:08 PM. I thought that by referring to doing the same to people with brown eyes or black skin made it obvious I was being ridiculous. I would offer my condolences to all who loved him but, although I have no strong views on his regime, it was wrong to imprison people because of their sexuality. When people think that is a good thing I begin to doubt humanity. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:11 AM Steve, it was not me who brought up the subject of homosexuality in this thread. Jim the confinement of homosexuals in Cuba WAS a direct response to the HIV/AIDS epidemic.....The excellent Cuban Health system had worked out that the main "at risk" sector of the population was male homosexuals, something that other health agencies cannot yet bring themselves to admit. In the interim, many lives have been lost and the epidemic continues unabated. The actions taken in Cuba were not persecution, but common sense health policy. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Thompson Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:20 AM Channel 4 made a documentary, 638 Ways to Kill Castro about the many attempts by the US to assassinate this foreign head of state. I suppose if America and Europe want to show how dastardly Castro was, from a more level playing field, the best way would be to institute the same policies of free universal healthcare, equality of income and free education to degree level. In Cuba, the policy was that even if no one had a lot, everyone had a fair share of whatever there was. Sometimes - as in the 1990s when Cuba was impoverished by the US embargo and the loss of help from Russia - this meant terrible things; adults and children were going blind from malnutrition. Cuba's response was to investigate and develop a State response - distribution of B vitamins - which saved thousands. I can't understand why America continues this embargo. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:58 AM "Jim the confinement of homosexuals in Cuba WAS a direct response to the HIV/AIDS epidemic" PLease do not be as incredibly stupid as your hatred of homosexuality appears to have made you The moral clampdown in Cuba began at the beginning of the 1960s Aids did not surface as an issue until 1982 Unless Cuba set up a secret crystal ball factory to predict two decades into the future - how the **** could that clampdown be related in any way to Aids You forgot your pill again this morning, didn't you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 06:55 AM Just been informed of this by Sandra Kerr THE POWER of COMMUNITY Sandra and other members of the Critics Group were guests of the Cuban Goverment as performers in 1969 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:25 AM There has always been a moral argument in every country on homosexuality, in part of the UK and most of the world homosexual "marriage" is still illegal. I am talking about the medical response to HIV/AIDS in Cuba regardless of political ideology. This from the New York Times, hardly a supporter of Fidel. HAVANA — Yudelsy García O'Connor, the first baby known to have been born with H.I.V. in Cuba, is not merely still alive. She is vibrant, funny and, at age 25, recently divorced but hoping to remarry and have children. Her father died of AIDS when she was 10, her mother when she was 23. She was near death herself in her youth. "I'm not afraid of death," she said. "I know it could knock on my door. It comes for everyone. But I take my medicine." Ms. García is alive thanks partly to lucky genes, and partly to the intensity with which Cuba has attacked its AIDS epidemic. Whatever debate may linger about the government's harsh early tactics — until 1993, everyone who tested positive for H.I.V. was forced into quarantine — there is no question that they succeeded. Strangly, the NYT's article makes no mention of male homosexuals, but states that "the Cuban regime concentrates on "high risk groups like prostitutes". Actually, the rates among "sex workers" are only a fraction of those amongst male homosexuals. Related Coverage H.I.V./AIDS: Voices From Cuba MAY 7, 2012 Cuba's AIDS Sanitariums: Fortresses Against a Viral Foe MAY 7, 2012 Recent Comments Gail Reed May 9, 2012 For an indepth look at HIV/AIDS in Cuba see the special issue of peer-reviewed journal MEDICC Review at http://www.medicc... Eyes Open May 9, 2012 I've been to Cuba twice. It is a remarkable place. This cogent article demonstrates yet another way in which it is remarkable. I wonder if... Tufik Habib May 9, 2012 As most things in life, things are not fully good or bad. Definitely, it seems this is the way to manage an epidemic. Indeed, it looks... See All Comments |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 08:09 AM Cuba's attitude to homosexuality had changed radically before all of these irrelevant statements were made - as had the rest of the world's. Enlightenment and understanding brought those changes - the repression of what was regarded as wrong in Cuba (elsewhere, homosexuality was still illegal - in parts of the U.S. that was still the case in 2014) never at any time involved Aids. It seems that Ake is using it as another window of opportunity for his world crusade. As homosexuality is now fully accepted throughout the civilised world, I ask that if he cannot control his one-man campaign against a sizeable proportion of the world's population, he at least attempts to suppress his hatred here. A number of members on this forum have declared themselves to be gay and I have no doubt that there are many others who regardd their sexuality as purely their own business - so his persistent attempts to denigrate homosexuals as 'disease carriers' are aimed at fellow Mudcatters. I think it's about time he stopped or was stopped - don't you? He'll be be demanding we ring back hanging, drawing and quartering and the branque next Give it a rest Ake and pretend you're a human being for a minute. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Greg F. Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:19 AM He came to power lying about his objectives and pursued a despotic rule where his opinion of right and wrong was made to suffice for an entire people Sounds rather like Trump, does it not? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:42 AM "He came to power lying about his objectives and pursued a despotic rule " He came to power to overthow a despotic ruler who opened up Cuba to Amrican sex yourists, widespread prostitution and corruption, the despotic ownership of land by a handful of families Following the revolution, Over 200,000 Cuban families own land for the first time in their lives. Cuba has been kept in the situation that prevails because of a half-century blockade of trade - still in operation. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:01 AM Are you really that dim Jim? When the Aids was first diagnosed as a condition almost every victim was homosexual, that's why Castro confined them in sanatoria and that is why the infection rates are so low in Cuba compared to almost every other country on earth. Political correctness demands that we refer to these early victims as "prostitutes when in reality they were almost all homosexual. Lack of action to contain the condition by "liberal" governments has contributed to the massive transmission rates we see today in developed countries. Castro was no monster, he was a realist. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:15 AM Take your homophobic hatred elsewhere Ake (rapidly becoming Ache) It has no place in a decent democratid debating forum Like your and your friends' Islamophobia and other forms of bigoted intolerance, it effects members of this forum as much as it does the population in general. Hatred like yours gave rise to a culture of "queer bashing", just as Islamophobia gets petrol poured through letter boxes. By no stretch of the subject does it qualify to be discussed on this thread. Leave it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:26 AM So you think Fidel was a "homophobe" for setting up a policy to combat AIDS and save lives? If other countries had adopted such a policy HIV/AIDS would not be affecting homosexuals at epidemic rates. The reason that I have taken up this point is that someone accused Fidel of exactly that further up the page. I am simply clarifying the situation. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:20 PM Well I suppose we could lock up everyone who caught the pox or the clap. Come to think of it, or colds and flu. Or kids with mumps or measles. Lock 'em up, I say! Protect the rest of us! Or salmonella. Or anything else nasty and catching. But all you ever go on about is HIV in male homosexuals. You really can't see your own homophobia, can you, you sad man. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jeri Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:21 PM Oh, for fuck's sake... I'll be surprised if anyone other than the Flatulent Five contributes to this thread, other than the possible one-off sad attempts to communicate. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jeri Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:22 PM Sorry, looks like we're down to four, but the alliteration still works. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:38 PM Jeri This is the first contribution you have made to this discussion - a complaint about other peoples contributions. Nobody has prevented you from making a point before now - how about treating others with the same respect Yes - you are right - we do get involved with each other's arguments, but that is no excuse for your, or other people not making a contribution It's hardly a fact that we have interrupted an ongoing exchange of ideas. Up to now, I have responded to what others have said - I have also attempted to prevent this thread being used as a soapbox for a bigot. How about a comment on this, or are you happy to tolerate it? As far as I am concerned, I have said all I have to on Ake's homophobic bigotry and am happy to continue where I left off earlier. As far as I am aware, there is no limit to the number of postings a member can make on one topic. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:40 PM By the way - how does moaning Minnie work as alliteration - not that I'd ever be so ill-manners as to resort to such a term to a fellow member? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:44 PM Pathetic, Jeri. Typical negativity with nothing to say. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:44 PM Hiv/Aids is not like mumps or measles Steve and if you can remember, at the time all medical opinion thought that it might cross over to the heterosexual population at the same infection rates rates. that of course would have meant the end of society as we know it. Fidel took appropriate action and it worked. We did not and are now left with the consequences.....whatever they may turn out to be. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:27 PM Rubbish Medical science is on top of HIV and you know it. People who have the virus can lead full-length, normal lives. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Mrrzy Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:59 PM As an aside, homosexuality and Down's Syndrome don't compare well - both are innate but only the latter is both genetic and a way of being defective, albeit of course still human. And it can be transmitted to the genetic offspring. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM C'mon lads, don't let this homophobic troll wreck a good thread Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Greg F. Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM People who have the virus can lead full-length, normal lives. That's as may be, but to Ache they're still disgusting Godless faggots. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM i wouldn't use the word defective. My friend's daughter who has Downs is one of the most gorgeous and loving people you could ever wish to meet. I've met far more defective "normal" people in my life, many times over. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:41 PM I seriously dislike the drive by shootings Jeri sometimes makes. Dip into a thread, make a vague accusation at an unspecified group of people and then leave. It is uncalled for and unfair on the rest of the population who have no idea who the scatter gun is aiming at. Please stop it. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Greg F. Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:50 PM Now Trumpists, they're absolutely defective. As for Jeri, at least she's consistently ephemeral. Until she flexes her mod alter-ego. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:56 PM "Rubbish Medical science is on top of HIV and you know it. People who have the virus can lead full-length, normal lives" Oh is that so Dr Shaw? Nobody understands the long term effects(30, 40, 50 years) of anti retroviral medication; and the costs are horrific, almost £400,000 per patient at present rates. Isn't it better that the virus is not transmitted at all? Fidel's policy stopped transmission in it's tracks and to equate HIV/AIDS with Downs' syndrome or mumps and measles is stupid and insulting on many levels. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:00 PM Jeri can say exactly as she pleases as can Joe, Acme, or any other member......."Please stop it" That is hilarious coming from the most widely recognised troll on the forum. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:09 PM Of course they can say anything they like. I made no demands, just a polite request. It can be either acted upon or ignored. As to That is hilarious coming from the most widely recognised troll on the forum. I shall make the same point I made on another thread. When allegations are made the people they are made against can either ignore them or refute them. I chose on this occasion to do the latter. The allegation is that I am 'the most widely recognised troll on the forum'. I refute this and challenge the accuser to substantiate that allegation with proof and recent examples of what can be deemed as trollish behaviour. Of course the accuser can chose to ignore this request as well but I am pretty sure that would prove it is a completely unsubstantiated accusation and can be treated with the contempt it deserves. I eagerly await the results. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:16 PM :0) Your last post is a typical example. You have been described as such by moderation on several occasions...and no I am not about to go looking for them, but I remember just after the new rules on Guests were brought in you were mentioned in dispatches.....shortly afterwards you disappeared for some time. It was lovely. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:54 PM So, no substance to the allegation then? I thought not. Thank you for the confirmation. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jeri Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM In an obituary thread, one person is going after homosexuals, other people are going after him, and others are going after me because I bitched about the constant sniping by a very, VERY small group of people who love seeing their own opinions, and you think I'm the problem? Oh well, at least this got moved to BS so it's easy to ignore it as it blows up to 1,000 posts full of idiotic fighting. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:58 PM Well you certainly bitched. No doubt about that. As a matter of fact, it was not moved to BS. I started this thread and I STARTED it in BS. Not only that, I did NOT start this thread as an obit. Joe changed it to that and we had friendly private communications about it. You're losing it, Jeri. Consider your position. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:52 PM It will be interesting to see who from other countries attend the Funeral on December 4. I see various voices are waxing furiously about the notion that Obama might go. I liked the comment in The Guardian yesterday from a Cuban critical of Castro "Of course I am crying. We Cubans are all Fidelista even if we are not communists." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:54 PM "Jeri can say exactly as she pleases as can Joe" And anybody can respond to her as they wish, especially those she targeted with her insulting and unjustified remarks - expeciaslly when they were her fondly contribution to this discussion If she can't take the heat.... as they say. It was she who questioned the right of anybody to debate as they wished - not us. Now she is climing that we only post because "like seeiing outrr own opinions" What the **** does she expect from such an arrogantly insulting attitude - a bunch of flowers? I do hope I'm wrong but I have in the back of my mind that Jeri is one of our guardian forum fairies and her behavior towards those she doesn't agree with has been called into question not so long ago (recent Dylan thread). Is there a refresher course on how moderators should behave? I would have thought moderation should be a key requirement And now you have turned this debate into yet another of your homophobic hate-fests - perhaps you should get together. Back to the real debate - just seen an interesting televised report from the streets of Havana, where the reporter describes the views of the people he interviewed. The Older ones adored Castro and regarded him as a national liberation leader (he was never a Marxist, as the sewer press are claiming, by the way) The younger generation regard him as a somewhat dysfunctional father-figure Not much sign of oppression, fear or relief at his death - that's for the Florida saddos who are dancing in the street - easy to guess who they voted for in the Presidential election!! Jim Carroll. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Ed T Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:45 PM Flashback National Lampoon humour article from the mid 70s, on Cuba and homosexuality makes mainstream USA news as factual. And, then, this made the 1975 news |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Rog Peek Date: 28 Nov 16 - 08:52 AM Fidel Castro "I will not die until America is destroyed!" America elects Donald Trump as president. Fidel Castro "Well then, Adios." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM Sums it up nicely, Rog. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Nov 16 - 11:25 AM Dave the Gnome and I have had a bad recent history, but since his return he has been most reasonable and conciliatory. Credit where it is due. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: robomatic Date: 28 Nov 16 - 11:46 AM A couple articles in Online NYT that you might be able to access although they have a pay wall if you download from 'em too many times in a month: Roger Cohen column NYT Castro's Sister, a Vocal Critic, Takes No Joy |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:08 PM "In an obituary thread, one person is going after homosexuals, other people are going after him," Sorry Jeri you got that wrong.....I was not going after homosexuals. The thread concerns Fidel Castro and another member accused him of being beastly to homosexuals. My posts were to explain the efficacy of Fidel's policy of confinement, it saved thousands of lives....almost exclusively homosexual's lives |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:28 PM Fidel Castro was in my opinion an extraordinary man who did a lot of good for Cuba. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:34 PM Well said Good Soldier. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: meself Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM Meanwhile, here in Canada, Justin Trudeau is getting clobbered from the newly-invigorated right for calling Castro "remarkable" and "a legendary revolutionary". Now, I think JT chose his words carefully (though he needn't have bothered): love'm or hate'm, no thinking person can deny that Castro was "remarkable", that he was "legendary", and that he was a "revolutionary". JT did NOT say he was "wonderful" or a "hero" - but he might as well have, for the foaming-at-the-mouth reaction he's been getting. Apparently, he was supposed to use the occasion of Castro's death to spew hatred. One dingbat reporter asked JT if he would deny that Castro was a "dictator" - the implication being that if you think him "remarkable" and "a legendary revolutionary", you cannot acknowledge that was a dictator. So now the news story is that JT heaps unqualified praise on Castro - BUT admits that he was a dictator. The implication being that JT is all mixed up. Or that he doesn't believe in democracy. Or something. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:55 PM We can continue this forever if you like Ake Castro's attitude to homosexuality had sweet FA to do with health. The links between passing on diseases and homosexuality did not become an issue until at least two decades later when it became a weapon of the 'queer bashing brigade' The passing of sexually transmitted diseases is a feature of all combinations of sexual practice - homosexuality did not become a singular target of the bigots till the 1980s. There really is no way around that until you can prove otherwise. I suggest you read Ed T's link carefully before you continue with claims about 'homosexual concentration camps' Regarding your suggestion that I am accusing Casto of being a homophobe - please read what I have written and stop distorting what I say. Castro's attitude to morality was based entirely on Cuba's previous history under Batista, when it was used by wealthy Americans as a national brothel and the stalking ground for pedophiles - and those who were titillated by bestiality. There's a fascinating sequence in one of The Godfather series where this latter is included. I really do wish you'd lay off homosexuals - it really is legal now and they really have stopped chemically castrating people. Isn't it time you stopped using the plight of sick people for your hate campaign? Your attitude to this natural condition is utterly medieval. Being homosexual is not an illness, nor is a perversion - it is as natural as being left handed - but perhaps you believe that is a sign of being a witch - waddya think? News has been coming in of the disbelief, grief and mourning of the Cuban people - they're missing his terrorism already!! Rather a bizarre argument has sprung up here in Ireland. Our President, Michael D Higgins in being slated for his praise of Castro and the Taoiseach has been urged not to go to the funeral A bit sick really, since Ireland was proudly represented at the late late patriach of the Saudi regime and flags were flown at half-mast at the same time as a Saudi journalist was being administered 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn. That nice Mr Cameron was there of course, paying his respects. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jeri Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:00 PM I think he WAS legendary. It all started out noble. The problem (in my simplistic view) is that power corrupts. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:00 PM Should read "funeral of the late patriach of the Saudi regime" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:09 PM Sorry Jim that is nothing but a hate filled rant, Fidel's policy of confinement in sanatoria(not concentration camps), stopped the transmission of HIV in Cuba. Most of the post is complete nonsense typical "liberal" bullshit. As this is not a thread about Homosexuality, I will refrain from further comment on infection rates , but feel free to start one and all will be revealed. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:34 PM "Jim that is nothing but a hate filled rant" It most certainly is not - it is a list of respondable-to points which you obviously are not going to respond to " typical "liberal" bullshit." Happy to put my hand up to that in preference to being guilty of a witch-burning hatred of a sizable minority of the world's population. Have you never considered that the Aids figures in Cuba might just be accounted for by an advanced and ENLIGHTENED APPROACH and a totally free access to health care for all? Obviously not - wouldn't suit the agenda. Has it not stuck you as odd that, as far as this forum goes, your one-man campaign is exactly that - a one-man campaign. "As this is not a thread about Homosexuality," Then why do you persist on using it as such? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 28 Nov 16 - 03:50 PM As you seem to have difficulty absorbing the written word, I will repeat what I wrote a few posts above. "The thread concerns Fidel Castro and another member accused him of being beastly to homosexuals. My posts were to explain the efficacy of Fidel's policy of confinement, it saved thousands of lives....almost exclusively homosexual's lives" My god man, if the NYT admitted that Fidel's policy worked, why can't you? ideology? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Donuel Date: 28 Nov 16 - 04:23 PM Fidel defied the Mafia and Vice President Nixon defied Fidel. Castro came to America for 11 days to create a liaison and side with the West but Nixon snubbed him. Russia much later was delighted to assist. This was kept secret from 1959 to 1979. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: keberoxu Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:03 PM Robomatic, thanks to the link to the article regarding Castro's surviving sister. What a putdown: The difference is that he had millions, but the other had a brain. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: meself Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:31 PM Should be noted, for those who haven't read the article, that the 'putdown' is of Trump; Castro's sister compares him with Obama. Some of those Cuban exiles seem to be charming people .... (For those who haven't read the article, that is sarcasm!). |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:36 PM It's easy to understand why the apologists of repressive regimes championed by the regressive left are also apologists for Castro. "As other countries in the region turned away from authoritarian rule, only Fidel Castro's Cuba continued to repress virtually all civil and political rights," said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. "Castro's draconian rule and the harsh punishments he meted out to dissidents kept his repressive system rooted firmly in place for decades." The repression was codified in law and enforced by security forces, groups of civilian sympathizers tied to the state, and a judiciary that lacked independence. Such abusive practices generated a pervasive climate of fear in Cuba, which hindered the exercise of fundamental rights, and pressured Cubans to show their allegiance to the state while discouraging criticism. Many of the abusive tactics developed during his time in power – including surveillance, beatings, arbitrary detention, and public acts of repudiation – are still used by the Cuban government. Human Rights Watch |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:52 PM the apologists of repressive regimes Rather like you apologising for Trump and the Trumpists, Bubo? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:55 PM Rather like you apologising for Trump and the Trumpists, Bubo? Idiot. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: meself Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:24 PM Of course, the repression had nothing to with the fact that the most powerful nation on earth, 90 miles away, was a declared enemy that kept busy with assassination plots, funding opposition, sponsoring an invasion .... And look around the region: Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Mexico, etc. - things were so much better there through the latter decades of the 20th Century .... Btw: proportion of population incarcerated: Cuba - 510 per 100,000; USA - 693 per 100,000 (not including juveniles; don't know re: Cuba). In Cuba, according to Wiki, the last executions were in 2003. In the US, they were ... when? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:40 PM Well it would be nice to think you laid equal store by Human Rights Watch on Israel, Bobad. Moving swiftly on... Well I started this thread, I am no apologist for Castro and I fully expected controversy. He was a very controversial figure, let's face it. He was intolerant of homosexuality, etc., and I'm not going to excuse him because he was "of his time" or by claiming that lots of other countries were just as bad, if not worse. He promised democracy and did not deliver. He imprisoned many political adversaries and was not averse to putting people to death. We can look at the vicissitudes of the time and of his situation, but we can't give him a clean bill of health on account of any of that. But on the whole his people were behind him. He did do all the good things for Cuba that have been claimed in this thread. He did not exploit his country as a milch cow for his personal enrichment. He kept a huge, extremely aggressive bellicose near-neighbour at bay for fifty years, a neighbour that tried countless times to assassinate him. When it comes to the Cold War and his part in the missile crisis, well this is how I see it. Read my lips: Cuba had no nuclear weapons. The US already had nuclear warheads within reach of Moscow, stationed in Turkey. The Bay of Pigs helped to drive Castro into the arms of the Soviets. He and Kruschev saw the positioning of Soviet missiles in Cuba as restoring a balance of power, insane though we see that concept now. I think that Cuba was exploited and that Castro hardly covered himself with glory, but the bombs were not his. I put the blame for that crisis as 75% Kennedy, 20% Kruschev and 5% Castro. Discuss! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Donuel Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:41 PM Well...You have to agree with Ake when he is right about something. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:48 PM proportion of population incarcerated: Cuba - 510 per 100,000; USA - 693 per 100,000 "Nobody has a clue what is inside the jail system. It's not clear," - Carlos Ponce, director of Latin America programs at the watchdog group Freedom House. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:57 PM "Khrushchev?" Dammit, was I spelling it wrong? I'll call him "Niki" from now on. Same as Mrs Steve, though she'd take a machete to the family jewels if I spelled it that way. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 28 Nov 16 - 09:57 PM Fidel Castro stands in a long line of great socialist leaders who betrayed socialism. The list pretty well includes all of them, from Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin, to Mao Zedong and Chou En-lai, to Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, to Mengistu in Ethiopia. In the name of the beloved masses, these revolutionaries became the greatest mass murderers in history, responsible for genocide, famine, incalculable suffering, widespread torture and the deaths of tens of millions of workers for the crime of somehow displeasing their great leader. Castro was not a mass murderer of the same order, though hundreds, maybe thousands, of opponents were executed in the early years. He also broke the hearts of the millions of Cubans who welcomed his revolution. In reality the dictator led a nation with an economy frozen in the 1950s, captive of the Soviet Union on which Castro foolishly made his tiny island dependent. Nor was it all the fault of the idiotic American boycott, as Castro apologists are quick to insist. Scarcity became the overriding characteristic of Fidelismo, scarcity in both the quantity and quality of the life he provided. Dissent was not tolerated, political dissidents imprisoned, human rights a foreign intrusion, free speech counterrevolutionary, trade unions government servants, gays an insult to the revolution. Fidel Castro was no friend of socialism |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: meself Date: 28 Nov 16 - 10:57 PM I've never been to Cuba; however, my father went for a vacation about twenty years ago. He was not a leftie, by any means - a skeptic is what he was. Now, I wish I could remember his exact words, but to paraphrase: "The Cubans don't feel oppressed. You can tell when the people feel oppressed - it's not like that in Cuba." No reason that should mean anything to you, I suppose, but it made an impression on me. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 29 Nov 16 - 02:21 AM meself - 28 Nov 16 - 07:24 PM "Btw: proportion of population incarcerated: Cuba - 510 per 100,000; USA - 693 per 100,000 (not including juveniles; don't know re: Cuba). In Cuba, according to Wiki, the last executions were in 2003. In the US, they were ... when?" On that subject and taking those figures at face value. In Cuba how many of the 510 per 100,000 are political prisoners whose only crime has been to show dissent? In the USA how many of the 693 per 100,000 are political prisoners? In Cuba which still retains the death penalty when was the last political prisoner executed? In the USA where the death penalty is retained by 31 States and by the Federal Government when was the last political prisoner executed for his/her political beliefs? Fidel Castro, man of the people, another true "socialist" who died as a multi-millionaire. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 04:19 AM "Fidel Castro stands in a long line of great socialist leaders who betrayed socialism. " What a load of unqualified shit from one of the extremist right wingers on this form - how would you know the first thing about Socialism? Lenin - he died when socialism hadn't even begun to be put into place in aRussia hat was still recovering from a Civil war supported by troops from 14 "free countries" - how the **** could he have betrayed something that he was foremost in fighting for. Trotsy was driven into exile and eventually murdered because he refused to compromise his socialist beliefs. Mao led China out of a primitive feudal system to become a leading industrial nation - - it took around half a century to achieve this economic miracle Chou En Lai This is straight from the John Birch handbook of Political Science The greates mass murderers in history were the Empire and post Empire Governments who exploited and massacred entire nations, caused two world wars, and continue exploit and oppress nations in pursuit of markets and oil. You pricks talk about political oppression and ignore the fact that on the coast of "oppressed" Cuba, America that a concentration camp populated by "SUSPECTS" that have been illegally held in inhuman conditions without charge or trial for over a decade, chained and boirler-suited in cages, in temperatures that have topped 102 degrees, "Democratic" America has carried out invasions and ongoing acts of terrorism and acts of torture and murder against states and orgnaisations who they disapprove of and believe to be a threat to their well-being. When the Cuban revolution was in its infancy black people in the nearest American States were being arrested, beaten by the police and state forces, incarcerated, shot down and their places of worship burned to the ground FOR DEMANDING THE VOTE Even today, blacks in America can be shot down in the street by the forces of law and order sometimes for protesting, but mostly for being black, whithout any consequences to their killers. Black have been murdered by neighbourhood watch vigilantes and their killers have been allowed to walk free. You people talk about prisons - go count the proportion of blacks to whites who are incarcerated, particularly those on Death Row. For over a decade since the Companéros came to power, America waged war on an impoverished country that had already suffered a dozen years of warfare, pouring burning jellified petrol on the homes and fields of the farmers - and the people themselves, along with spraying their crops with carcinogenic chemicals that were even infecting and killing off the American pilots who flew the planes. In the South of that country, American servicemen were being entertained with shows of Vietnamese women being fucked by animals - just like the good old days in Cuba. America has instigated, financed, and even participated in the overthrow of legally elected governments - Greece and Chile being two examples. It has supported and financed some of the greatest mass-murdering monsters on the planet - all done while pointing a finger at "undemocratic" Cuba. Amarica hasantiquated gun-laws dating back centuries, which make many of its cities the most dangerous places on the planet.... And all of this has been supported by America's most faithful ally - Britain, actually or with uncritical silence. The "free world" is now in the throes of a war with third world impoverished countries - its greed directly helped to cause those wars - that situation is likely to remain for the foreseeable future. Where do you stop with this list - it is endless - and Cuba is "undemocratic and oppressive" Amarica has just elected an openly Fascist President whose declared election promises will increase and accelerate the present situation - specifically targeting its own national the poor and immigrants And women have been openly denigrated and their safety threatened - by the victorious President's own words - accessible pussy . What few health measures its previous President managed to put into place, against massive opposition, are quite likely to be severely reduced and may disappear altogether, returning to the situation of a few years ago where, if you were poor and couldn't pay for medical care, you suffered and died - where the first thing that was checked when you were taken into hospital wasn't your pulse or your heart, but your wallet. Cuba has suffered a over half-century blockade of trade and survived. Its president has survived 638 ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS by or instigated by the CIA, overssen my * American Presidents. For all his faults, I regret Castro's death just as much as I look forward with fear to the ongoing acts of war and terror carried out by the U.S. - particularly under its potential Fascist Dictator - who will, no doubt, have the full support of our elected representatives, as things stand at present. What a legacy we have left to our children eh? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:15 AM "another true "socialist" who died as a multi-millionaire!" Another unproven rumour based entirely on the word of a Cuban emigre, a forbmer employee of the Government who fled the country and was welcomed with open arms by "democratic" America whose magazne for billionaires publisghed it as Gospel - what else is he going to say and what else is the extreme right here going to pick up on and present as "fact"? Waste of time to ask for verification of this from this particular quarter Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:44 AM T'other link went awol ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:36 AM This is what happens to you in Cuba if you say a naughty thing about the now-mouldering tyrant. Cuba Detains Dissident Artist for Celebrating Castro's Death |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:58 AM Anybody celebrating the death of another human being is a sicko and needs mdical attention. Artists in the public eye carry a responsibility not to incite hatred while the majority of a nation is in mourning. I can remember a thread on this forum being closed because of people who were celebrating the death of Thatcher immediately following her death - in retrospect, that was probably the decent thing to do. You made accusations earlier - I responded to them I suppose you are now going to maintain your hit-and-run style of trollism and walk away from them, and snipe away mindlessly Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 09:02 AM This is what happens to you in The United States if you your CULTURE and RELIGION don't suit Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 29 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM "Anybody celebrating the death of another human being is a sicko and needs mdical attention." What about celebrating the deaths of 485 human beings as you said you were doing some months ago over there in Dublin? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:10 AM "Anybody celebrating the death of another human being is a sicko and needs mdical attention." Right, and I'm sure you would say the same about those who celebrated the death of your heroes Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and all those other great leaders of the common people. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:20 AM "What about celebrating the deaths of 485 human beings as you said you were doing some months ago over there in Dublin?" You mean those who died while trying to overthrow an Empire of 8 centuries standing, who ,as you pointed out, weren't being celebrated, but commemorated. The death of Castro will almost certainly lead to a national emergency. The jackals in Florida have been announcing for years that when Castro dies, they will use the occasion to "return Cuba back to its rightful owners" and when they do, they well dismantle all the benefits all the Government hs introduced - "no more free health, no more free education, no more welfare for free-loaders, farms and property returned to the handful of families who owned nearly half the island - and presumably a return of the other half to the American companies who owned the rest....." - in other words, counter-revolution. Cuba can't do much about the Florida scum, but they would be insane not to nip any support they might get back home - it is the responsibility of the Government not to let Cuba return to being another American puppet. The more support they manage to quash, the batter, as far as I'm concerned. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: The Sandman Date: 29 Nov 16 - 02:30 PM Bobad, please stop this trolling. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 29 Nov 16 - 02:48 PM GSS, please explain what you consider to be my trolling. If you mean not contributing to the fawning hagiography of the man then you are out of line. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM "GSS, please explain what you consider to be my trolling." THat's what you do Bobad - hurl unqualified accusations - then run off then come beck later and hurl some more -- ad-infinitum You put up a load of stuff arlies - it's been responded to - you don't acknowledge that and you'll come vback with more later. It's not discussion, it is cowardly - it's trolling Your favourite and most unitelligent trick is to call someone who disagrees with you an antisemite AT NO TIME HAVE YOU EVER ATTEMPTED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR ACCUSATIONS YO ARE A COWARDLY TROLL ANA INE EXAMPLE OF THE TERRORIST STATE YOU SUPPORT Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 29 Nov 16 - 03:17 PM Hey Carroll, why don't you try using larger fonts and gaudier colours, then someone might bother reading your posts. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:20 PM "Carroll" Hey Bobad - thank you for confirming my description of you as a a nasty cowardly troll Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Greg F. Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:21 PM Bobad, please stop this trolling. Bubo??? That's all he does!! Deal with it. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:24 PM That's all he does!! Ah, ha, ha......that coming from Greg is too funny - I near pissed myself. I wonder how someone so lacking in self-awareness can even manage to wipe his ass after a shit. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:30 PM "You mean those who died while trying to overthrow an Empire of 8 centuries standing, who ,as you pointed out, weren't being celebrated, but commemorated." Ehmmmm No Jim those who died over the events of that week at the beginning of it had absolutely no idea of what they had been caught up in, the "volunteers" were lied to, the civilians died for no reason at all and the forces of the Crown died to maintain law and order. "who ,as you pointed out, weren't being celebrated, but commemorated." And IIRC you stated that both myself, the President of the Republic of Ireland and the Taoiseach were all in error on the commemoration thing and that those deaths and events were being celebrated. Now I suppose that I will be accused of lying and we will have your usual ding dong where it will become obvious to all that you once more are lying in your efforts to prove your point - just as you did on the "No Poppies" thread and on the recent "Syria" thread. This thread moved to personal attacks, so obviously, it had to be closed. Continuation thread (click) |
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