Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 08:09 AM

Cuba's attitude to homosexuality had changed radically before all of these irrelevant statements were made - as had the rest of the world's.
Enlightenment and understanding brought those changes - the repression of what was regarded as wrong in Cuba (elsewhere, homosexuality was still illegal - in parts of the U.S. that was still the case in 2014) never at any time involved Aids.
It seems that Ake is using it as another window of opportunity for his world crusade.
As homosexuality is now fully accepted throughout the civilised world, I ask that if he cannot control his one-man campaign against a sizeable proportion of the world's population, he at least attempts to suppress his hatred here.
A number of members on this forum have declared themselves to be gay and I have no doubt that there are many others who regardd their sexuality as purely their own business - so his persistent attempts to denigrate homosexuals as 'disease carriers' are aimed at fellow Mudcatters.
I think it's about time he stopped or was stopped - don't you?
He'll be be demanding we ring back hanging, drawing and quartering and the branque next
Give it a rest Ake and pretend you're a human being for a minute.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:19 AM

He came to power lying about his objectives and pursued a despotic rule where his opinion of right and wrong was made to suffice for an entire people

Sounds rather like Trump, does it not?

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:42 AM

"He came to power lying about his objectives and pursued a despotic rule "
He came to power to overthow a despotic ruler who opened up Cuba to Amrican sex yourists, widespread prostitution and corruption, the despotic ownership of land by a handful of families
Following the revolution, Over 200,000 Cuban families own land for the first time in their lives.
Cuba has been kept in the situation that prevails because of a half-century blockade of trade - still in operation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:01 AM

Are you really that dim Jim?
When the Aids was first diagnosed as a condition almost every victim was homosexual, that's why Castro confined them in sanatoria and that is why the infection rates are so low in Cuba compared to almost every other country on earth.

Political correctness demands that we refer to these early victims as "prostitutes when in reality they were almost all homosexual.

Lack of action to contain the condition by "liberal" governments has contributed to the massive transmission rates we see today in developed countries.

Castro was no monster, he was a realist.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:15 AM

Take your homophobic hatred elsewhere Ake (rapidly becoming Ache)
It has no place in a decent democratid debating forum
Like your and your friends' Islamophobia and other forms of bigoted intolerance, it effects members of this forum as much as it does the population in general.
Hatred like yours gave rise to a culture of "queer bashing", just as Islamophobia gets petrol poured through letter boxes.
By no stretch of the subject does it qualify to be discussed on this thread.
Leave it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:26 AM

So you think Fidel was a "homophobe" for setting up a policy to combat AIDS and save lives?

If other countries had adopted such a policy HIV/AIDS would not be affecting homosexuals at epidemic rates.

The reason that I have taken up this point is that someone accused Fidel of exactly that further up the page.
I am simply clarifying the situation.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:20 PM

Well I suppose we could lock up everyone who caught the pox or the clap. Come to think of it, or colds and flu. Or kids with mumps or measles. Lock 'em up, I say! Protect the rest of us! Or salmonella. Or anything else nasty and catching. But all you ever go on about is HIV in male homosexuals.

You really can't see your own homophobia, can you, you sad man.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:21 PM

Oh, for fuck's sake...

I'll be surprised if anyone other than the Flatulent Five contributes to this thread, other than the possible one-off sad attempts to communicate.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:22 PM

Sorry, looks like we're down to four, but the alliteration still works.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:38 PM

Jeri
This is the first contribution you have made to this discussion - a complaint about other peoples contributions.
Nobody has prevented you from making a point before now - how about treating others with the same respect
Yes - you are right - we do get involved with each other's arguments, but that is no excuse for your, or other people not making a contribution
It's hardly a fact that we have interrupted an ongoing exchange of ideas.
Up to now, I have responded to what others have said - I have also attempted to prevent this thread being used as a soapbox for a bigot.
How about a comment on this, or are you happy to tolerate it?
As far as I am concerned, I have said all I have to on Ake's homophobic bigotry and am happy to continue where I left off earlier.
As far as I am aware, there is no limit to the number of postings a member can make on one topic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:40 PM

By the way - how does moaning Minnie work as alliteration - not that I'd ever be so ill-manners as to resort to such a term to a fellow member?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:44 PM

Pathetic, Jeri. Typical negativity with nothing to say.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:44 PM

Hiv/Aids is not like mumps or measles Steve and if you can remember, at the time all medical opinion thought that it might cross over to the heterosexual population at the same infection rates rates.   that of course would have meant the end of society as we know it.

Fidel took appropriate action and it worked.
We did not and are now left with the consequences.....whatever they may turn out to be.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:27 PM

Rubbish Medical science is on top of HIV and you know it. People who have the virus can lead full-length, normal lives.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:59 PM

As an aside, homosexuality and Down's Syndrome don't compare well - both are innate but only the latter is both genetic and a way of being defective, albeit of course still human. And it can be transmitted to the genetic offspring.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM

C'mon lads, don't let this homophobic troll wreck a good thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM

People who have the virus can lead full-length, normal lives.

That's as may be, but to Ache they're still disgusting Godless faggots.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM

i wouldn't use the word defective. My friend's daughter who has Downs is one of the most gorgeous and loving people you could ever wish to meet. I've met far more defective "normal" people in my life, many times over.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:41 PM

I seriously dislike the drive by shootings Jeri sometimes makes. Dip into a thread, make a vague accusation at an unspecified group of people and then leave. It is uncalled for and unfair on the rest of the population who have no idea who the scatter gun is aiming at. Please stop it.

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:50 PM

Now Trumpists, they're absolutely defective.

As for Jeri, at least she's consistently ephemeral. Until she flexes her mod alter-ego.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:56 PM

"Rubbish Medical science is on top of HIV and you know it. People who have the virus can lead full-length, normal lives"

Oh is that so Dr Shaw? Nobody understands the long term effects(30, 40, 50 years) of anti retroviral medication; and the costs are horrific, almost £400,000 per patient at present rates.

Isn't it better that the virus is not transmitted at all?

Fidel's policy stopped transmission in it's tracks and to equate HIV/AIDS with Downs' syndrome or mumps and measles is stupid and insulting on many levels.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:00 PM

Jeri can say exactly as she pleases as can Joe, Acme, or any other member......."Please stop it"   That is hilarious coming from the most widely recognised troll on the forum.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:09 PM

Of course they can say anything they like. I made no demands, just a polite request. It can be either acted upon or ignored.

As to That is hilarious coming from the most widely recognised troll on the forum. I shall make the same point I made on another thread. When allegations are made the people they are made against can either ignore them or refute them. I chose on this occasion to do the latter.

The allegation is that I am 'the most widely recognised troll on the forum'. I refute this and challenge the accuser to substantiate that allegation with proof and recent examples of what can be deemed as trollish behaviour. Of course the accuser can chose to ignore this request as well but I am pretty sure that would prove it is a completely unsubstantiated accusation and can be treated with the contempt it deserves.

I eagerly await the results.

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:16 PM

:0) Your last post is a typical example.
You have been described as such by moderation on several occasions...and no I am not about to go looking for them, but I remember just after the new rules on Guests were brought in you were mentioned in dispatches.....shortly afterwards you disappeared for some time.
It was lovely.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:54 PM

So, no substance to the allegation then? I thought not. Thank you for the confirmation.

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM

In an obituary thread, one person is going after homosexuals, other people are going after him, and others are going after me because I bitched about the constant sniping by a very, VERY small group of people who love seeing their own opinions, and you think I'm the problem?

Oh well, at least this got moved to BS so it's easy to ignore it as it blows up to 1,000 posts full of idiotic fighting.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:58 PM

Well you certainly bitched. No doubt about that.

As a matter of fact, it was not moved to BS. I started this thread and I STARTED it in BS. Not only that, I did NOT start this thread as an obit. Joe changed it to that and we had friendly private communications about it.

You're losing it, Jeri. Consider your position.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:52 PM

It will be interesting to see who from other countries attend the Funeral on December 4.

I see various voices are waxing furiously about the notion that Obama might go.

I liked the comment in The Guardian yesterday from a Cuban critical of Castro "Of course I am crying. We Cubans are all Fidelista even if we are not communists."

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:54 PM

"Jeri can say exactly as she pleases as can Joe"
And anybody can respond to her as they wish, especially those she targeted with her insulting and unjustified remarks - expeciaslly when they were her fondly contribution to this discussion
If she can't take the heat.... as they say.
It was she who questioned the right of anybody to debate as they wished - not us.
Now she is climing that we only post because "like seeiing outrr own opinions"
What the **** does she expect from such an arrogantly insulting attitude - a bunch of flowers?
I do hope I'm wrong but I have in the back of my mind that Jeri is one of our guardian forum fairies and her behavior towards those she doesn't agree with has been called into question not so long ago (recent Dylan thread).
Is there a refresher course on how moderators should behave?
I would have thought moderation should be a key requirement
And now you have turned this debate into yet another of your homophobic hate-fests - perhaps you should get together.
Back to the real debate - just seen an interesting televised report from the streets of Havana, where the reporter describes the views of the people he interviewed.
The Older ones adored Castro and regarded him as a national liberation leader (he was never a Marxist, as the sewer press are claiming, by the way)
The younger generation regard him as a somewhat dysfunctional father-figure
Not much sign of oppression, fear or relief at his death - that's for the Florida saddos who are dancing in the street - easy to guess who they voted for in the Presidential election!!
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:45 PM

Flashback
National Lampoon humour article from the mid 70s, on Cuba and homosexuality makes mainstream USA news as factual.

And, then, this made the 1975 news 

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 08:52 AM

Fidel Castro "I will not die until America is destroyed!"

America elects Donald Trump as president.

Fidel Castro "Well then, Adios."

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM

Sums it up nicely, Rog.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 11:25 AM

Dave the Gnome and I have had a bad recent history, but since his return he has been most reasonable and conciliatory.

Credit where it is due.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 11:46 AM

A couple articles in Online NYT that you might be able to access although they have a pay wall if you download from 'em too many times in a month:

Roger Cohen column NYT

Castro's Sister, a Vocal Critic, Takes No Joy

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:08 PM

"In an obituary thread, one person is going after homosexuals, other people are going after him,"

Sorry Jeri you got that wrong.....I was not going after homosexuals.
The thread concerns Fidel Castro and another member accused him of being beastly to homosexuals.
My posts were to explain the efficacy of Fidel's policy of confinement, it saved thousands of lives....almost exclusively homosexual's lives

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:28 PM

Fidel Castro was in my opinion an extraordinary man who did a lot of good for Cuba.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:34 PM

Well said Good Soldier.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: meself
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM

Meanwhile, here in Canada, Justin Trudeau is getting clobbered from the newly-invigorated right for calling Castro "remarkable" and "a legendary revolutionary". Now, I think JT chose his words carefully (though he needn't have bothered): love'm or hate'm, no thinking person can deny that Castro was "remarkable", that he was "legendary", and that he was a "revolutionary". JT did NOT say he was "wonderful" or a "hero" - but he might as well have, for the foaming-at-the-mouth reaction he's been getting. Apparently, he was supposed to use the occasion of Castro's death to spew hatred.

One dingbat reporter asked JT if he would deny that Castro was a "dictator" - the implication being that if you think him "remarkable" and "a legendary revolutionary", you cannot acknowledge that was a dictator. So now the news story is that JT heaps unqualified praise on Castro - BUT admits that he was a dictator. The implication being that JT is all mixed up. Or that he doesn't believe in democracy. Or something.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:55 PM

We can continue this forever if you like Ake
Castro's attitude to homosexuality had sweet FA to do with health.
The links between passing on diseases and homosexuality did not become an issue until at least two decades later when it became a weapon of the 'queer bashing brigade'
The passing of sexually transmitted diseases is a feature of all combinations of sexual practice - homosexuality did not become a singular target of the bigots till the 1980s.
There really is no way around that until you can prove otherwise.
I suggest you read Ed T's link carefully before you continue with claims about 'homosexual concentration camps'
Regarding your suggestion that I am accusing Casto of being a homophobe - please read what I have written and stop distorting what I say.
Castro's attitude to morality was based entirely on Cuba's previous history under Batista, when it was used by wealthy Americans as a national brothel and the stalking ground for pedophiles - and those who were titillated by bestiality.
There's a fascinating sequence in one of The Godfather series where this latter is included.
I really do wish you'd lay off homosexuals - it really is legal now and they really have stopped chemically castrating people.
Isn't it time you stopped using the plight of sick people for your hate campaign?
Your attitude to this natural condition is utterly medieval.
Being homosexual is not an illness, nor is a perversion - it is as natural as being left handed - but perhaps you believe that is a sign of being a witch - waddya think?
News has been coming in of the disbelief, grief and mourning of the Cuban people - they're missing his terrorism already!!
Rather a bizarre argument has sprung up here in Ireland.
Our President, Michael D Higgins in being slated for his praise of Castro and the Taoiseach has been urged not to go to the funeral
A bit sick really, since Ireland was proudly represented at the late late patriach of the Saudi regime and flags were flown at half-mast at the same time as a Saudi journalist was being administered 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
That nice Mr Cameron was there of course, paying his respects.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:00 PM

I think he WAS legendary. It all started out noble. The problem (in my simplistic view) is that power corrupts.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:00 PM

Should read "funeral of the late patriach of the Saudi regime"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:09 PM

Sorry Jim that is nothing but a hate filled rant, Fidel's policy of confinement in sanatoria(not concentration camps), stopped the transmission of HIV in Cuba.

Most of the post is complete nonsense typical "liberal" bullshit.
As this is not a thread about Homosexuality, I will refrain from further comment on infection rates , but feel free to start one and all will be revealed.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:34 PM

"Jim that is nothing but a hate filled rant"
It most certainly is not - it is a list of respondable-to points which you obviously are not going to respond to
" typical "liberal" bullshit."
Happy to put my hand up to that in preference to being guilty of a witch-burning hatred of a sizable minority of the world's population.
Have you never considered that the Aids figures in Cuba might just be accounted for by an advanced and ENLIGHTENED APPROACH and a totally free access to health care for all?
Obviously not - wouldn't suit the agenda.
Has it not stuck you as odd that, as far as this forum goes, your one-man campaign is exactly that - a one-man campaign.
"As this is not a thread about Homosexuality,"
Then why do you persist on using it as such?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 03:50 PM

As you seem to have difficulty absorbing the written word, I will repeat what I wrote a few posts above.

"The thread concerns Fidel Castro and another member accused him of being beastly to homosexuals.
My posts were to explain the efficacy of Fidel's policy of confinement, it saved thousands of lives....almost exclusively homosexual's lives"

My god man, if the NYT admitted that Fidel's policy worked, why can't you?    ideology?

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 04:23 PM

Fidel defied the Mafia and Vice President Nixon defied Fidel. Castro came to America for 11 days to create a liaison and side with the West but Nixon snubbed him. Russia much later was delighted to assist.

This was kept secret from 1959 to 1979.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:03 PM

Robomatic, thanks to the link to the article regarding Castro's surviving sister. What a putdown:

The difference is that he had millions, but the other had a brain.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: meself
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:31 PM

Should be noted, for those who haven't read the article, that the 'putdown' is of Trump; Castro's sister compares him with Obama.

Some of those Cuban exiles seem to be charming people .... (For those who haven't read the article, that is sarcasm!).

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:36 PM

It's easy to understand why the apologists of repressive regimes championed by the regressive left are also apologists for Castro.        

"As other countries in the region turned away from authoritarian rule, only Fidel Castro's Cuba continued to repress virtually all civil and political rights," said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. "Castro's draconian rule and the harsh punishments he meted out to dissidents kept his repressive system rooted firmly in place for decades."

The repression was codified in law and enforced by security forces, groups of civilian sympathizers tied to the state, and a judiciary that lacked independence. Such abusive practices generated a pervasive climate of fear in Cuba, which hindered the exercise of fundamental rights, and pressured Cubans to show their allegiance to the state while discouraging criticism.

Many of the abusive tactics developed during his time in power – including surveillance, beatings, arbitrary detention, and public acts of repudiation – are still used by the Cuban government.

Human Rights Watch

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:52 PM

the apologists of repressive regimes

Rather like you apologising for Trump and the Trumpists, Bubo?

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:55 PM

Rather like you apologising for Trump and the Trumpists, Bubo?

Idiot.