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Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
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Subject: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 06:32 AM He defied the yanks for half a century having kicked out the thugs they supported (so what's new?), and, if only I could stop there, it would almost amount to a mini-hagiography. But he could be ruthless and was no democrat. Good things happened in Cuba with regard to health care, agriculture and education, even in the teeth of the spiteful embargo. So maybe I'll have to overlook the fact that he had the superpowers putting the shits up all of us and wasn't too nice to his adversaries. I'll raise half a glass to him tonight! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Senoufou Date: 26 Nov 16 - 06:38 AM I believe he was 90 years old. Amazing that he was still about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:01 AM The passing of an era. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:16 AM Shortly after coming to power in 1959, a heavily whiskered Fidel Castro informed the American journalist Edward R. Murrow that, "when we have fulfilled our promise of good government, I will cut my beard." For over half a century the Cuban people waited on the fulfillment of both those promises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: akenaton Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM Not really the end of an era, a lot of small countries will have no option but to adopt the Cuban template very soon. Very nicely said Steve.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Stu Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:43 AM RIP Fray Bentos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM a lot of small countries will have no option but to adopt the Cuban template very soon. And end up in the the toilet just like Venezuela. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Bonzo3legs Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM Good riddance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:22 AM Well I didn't exactly expect a string of eulogies, but something a bit more measured than "good riddance" would be good. Perhaps you're yearning for a return to something like a Fulgencio Batista regime. Yeah, that would keep those pesky third-worlders in line... |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:33 AM Castro's Cuba held the most powerful and aggressive State in the world, 90 miles off its shores, at arms length for half a century - that, apart from lifting the country output of american-backed fascism - that ought to be worth a chest-ful f medals, at least. Personally, Castro survived 87 C.I.A. assassination attempts and the country suppressed one abortive invasions - again, supported and armed by the world's most powerful and aggressive State, 90 miles off its shores. It has survived a 4+ decade long embargo, imposed by the U.S. and slavishly followed by 'The Fee World' (sic) In those circumstances, it is a bit unreal to expect an open and free society to develop naturally - the new State has been in a permanent state of siege for most of it's conversion from the "America's open sewer' that it was, to what it has become now. Some years ago, I watched a documentary on those sadly pathetic exiles who backed the Bay of Pigs fiasco - still proudly claiming that, on Castro's death, Cuba would be returned to its rightful owners - the handful of families who allowed Cuba to be used as a brothel and money-launderer for the scum of the earth - from Al Capone down. I am not surprised that Bobad has added Cuba to his hit-list of States that don't bow down to the rich and powerful of the world Bozo- No Brain is where he always has been - the rightest of right. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:35 AM Should of added, it shouldn't be too long now before Ake makes up the trio Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:55 AM I am not surprised that Bobad has added Cuba to his hit-list of States that don't bow down to the rich and powerful of the world.... And I am not surprised that Carroll would fawn over a repressive dictator who ruled his people by terror. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:04 AM "who ruled his people by terror." And is now to be celebrated by those he "terrorised" for five days. Cuba has the most advanced education system and health service in the whole of Latin America - those who wish to "return it to its rightful owners" have promised that they will dismantle both when they win Cuba back. One of the Golden Rules of State terrorism is that you never, ever educate those you wish to terrorise, nor do you expend too much effort in keeping them healthy. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: EBarnacle Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:08 AM Sounds like Trumpism, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:09 AM A HISTORY of U.S, POLICY TOWARDS CUBA Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Greg F. Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:24 AM Your boy Trump's pretty good at fawning over Putin, Bubo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:46 AM Cuba has the most advanced education system and health service in the whole of Latin America When you take away peoples' rights and freedoms you better give them something in return - even the most repressive dictators know that they won't last long if they don't. There are plenty countries with advanced education and health systems that don't rule by terror. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 10:57 AM Your boy Trump's..... Right, just like your boy is David Duke.....idiot! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:09 AM I was not aware that Castro "ruled by terror." Idle talk driven by prejudice. Grow up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:13 AM "When you take away peoples' rights and freedoms you better give them something in return " When a people has lived i mass poverty and repression throughout its history, any advancement will need to be made without outside interference - shortly after the seizure of power by the revolutionaries, Cuba has suffered a barrage of deadly opposition from its nearest neighbour. Cuba was virtually a slave state where American tourists went to watch the women be fucked by donkeys - should those waiting in the wings get their way, that is what it will return to. It is only recently that Obama has lifted the ban on rum and cigars - he proposed that the lifting of the rest of the 50 year old embargo be considered by congress - your friend Trump is unlikely to allow that to happen. There may be plenty of countries who don't rule by "terror" (odd word for a supporter of the world's most dangerous terrorist State), but there none anywhere on the planet who have been under threat by the World's most powerful state who have constantly attempted to bring down its leadership through terrorist measures and have used nearly all of that half century to starve the people into submission. Cuba has its democratic shortcomings, but which country on the planet doesn't? It's threatening nearest neighbour has just elected a fascist, racist, misogynist, politically-illiterate thug as president, and Britain will follow that thug just like a pet poodle - how 'democratic' is that? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: leeneia Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:21 AM Some years ago, the husband of a co-worker of mine was going back to Cuba to visit family. His suitcase was extremely heavy. He showed his wife what was in it: nothing but bars of Dial soap, which would be valuable in Cuba. He explained that every family got one bar of poor-quality soap a month. And you try to tell me that people had good health care? and education? In a country that did not provide soap? |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: bobad Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:29 AM I was not aware that Castro "ruled by terror." According to Castro's own estimates, at one point there were as many as 15,000 political prisoners in Cuba. One of the darkest periods of the repression occurred in 1963 when Castro approved "Operation P," named because of a black "P" (for pimps, prostitutes, pederasts) emblazoned on the uniforms of those arrested. The operation saw Castro's newly formed secret police sweep through Havana targeting homosexuals, religious believers, and "deviants"—often no more than men with long hair and blue jeans. Those rounded up were placed in UMAPs (Military Units to Help Production), a euphemism for concentration camps, and forced to do hard labor. According to the poet Armando Valladares, imprisoned by Castro in 1960, "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." These are just a few examples, there are many more if you care to look. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/26/adios-caudillo-fidel-castro-dead-at-90.html?source=TDB&via=FB_Page>The Daily Beast |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:32 AM "And you try to tell me that people had good health care? and education?" I don#t tell you anything - it is a long accepted and established fact - look it up. Shortages of certain commodities by a country subjected to a fifty-year old embargo, prove nothing, I'm afraid. It's strange to look at what happened to the countries that shook of the chains of repression' since the fall of communism - Russia and former Yugoslavia, being prime examples - Putin and mass genocide freeodom - I hardly think so! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:50 AM " "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." "Havana targeting homosexuals," "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." "One of the darkest periods of the repression occurred in 1963" In 1963, homosexuality was a crime in Britain, and remained so for another four years. Castro Government had one hell of a mess to clean up after the defeat of America's puppet - pro revolutionary Cuba was wher the U.S. perverts of every shape and delectation went to 'fulfil their desires' That excesses took place is hardly a surprising reaction "a euphemism for concentration camps," The only concentration camp on Cuba today is on Guantanamo Bay - run by ???? Certainly not the Cubans Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Greg F. Date: 26 Nov 16 - 12:00 PM Right, just like your boy is David Duke Actually, Bubo, Duke is Trump's boy & vice versa. And you try to tell me that people had good health care? and education? Much better than poor folks in general in the U.S., Leeneia. Check out Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Detroit........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Nov 16 - 12:21 PM Further to above - homosexual acts in parts of the United States remained a criminal offence until 2014. The law repealing enforced chemical castration for homosexuality was not repealed until 1967 Wonder how this fits in with Bobad's "there have been few examples of repression of homosexuals in history as virulent as in Cuba." Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: kendall Date: 26 Nov 16 - 02:39 PM How many of us remember F. Baptista? owned by the Mafia, corrupt to the core. I was in Cuba in 1956 before the revolution. Baptistas armed thugs patrolling the streets with AK 47s. Not a fun place to be. Just another country that had wanted we wanted so, Randolph Hurst talked President McKinley into starting a war. The Cubans did not blow up the Maine. It was proven years later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: akenaton Date: 26 Nov 16 - 03:24 PM The confinement of homosexual in sanatoria was to combat the epidemic of HIV/AIDS which was taking place worldwide. The policy resulted in the lowest rates of hiv infection anywhere in the world. The rates have since been slowly rising but are nowhere near infection rates in UK or USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: akenaton Date: 26 Nov 16 - 03:25 PM In all probability, the policy saved the lives of thousands of homosexuals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Nov 16 - 04:08 PM Interesting to note the difference between the statements from the president elect and the president on his way out. I know which one shows most humanity. Also interesting to note that like seems to attract like. I could also save thousands of lives. Maybe if we stopped all people with Down's syndrome from procreating we could eliminate that disease. Or if we killed all those with cystic fibrosis at birth it would save a lot of heartache. Or maybe those with brown eyes... Or those with black skin... Some of the comments on here just make me sick. Sorry. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:13 PM "The confinement of homosexual in sanatoria was to combat the epidemic of HIV/AIDS which was taking place worldwide...In all probability, the policy saved the lives of thousands of homosexuals." Well we'd save a whole lot more lives by banning childbirth, banning alcohol, banning Big Macs, banning fags, banning pork belly, banning people from going up ladders, banning cars, banning diesel, banning military aid to Israel, banning weaopns sales to Saudi, banning the DWP, banning air-conditioning...stop me somebody... But you've picked on homosexual love. You sad bugger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:19 PM I could also save thousands of lives. Maybe if we stopped all people with Down's syndrome from procreating we could eliminate that disease. Or if we killed all those with cystic fibrosis at birth it would save a lot of heartache. It doesn't work like that with Down's syndrome - it's people who haven't got it who have Down's syndrome babies. But of course wer're working hard as a society to eliminate people with Down's syndrome in other ways. Plus people with cystic fibrosis and a lot more... Down's Syndrome is not "a disease". It's a way of being human. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Bonzo3legs Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:32 PM "Well I didn't exactly expect a string of eulogies, but something a bit more measured than "good riddance" would be good. Perhaps you're yearning for a return to something like a Fulgencio Batista regime. Yeah, that would keep those pesky third-worlders in line... " Crikey, Batista wasn't exactly a bundle of fun was he, seems like the Cubans may have been slightly better off under Castro!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So long, Fidel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 06:18 PM Well yeah, "slightly" doesn't cut it! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:13 PM I renamed this to an obituary thread because I don't think we need two separate threads to mark his death. Can't say I always agreed with what he did, but he certainly did a good job of reminding us Americans of our hypocrisy. I think that for the most part, he was good for Cuba, and he was good for the Americas. I wish we could have had a more cordial relationship with him. That would have been of benefit to both nations. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:38 PM We didn't have two threads, did we? I checked in case someone had beaten me to it before posting this thread. Still, I may be bemused but I'm not bothered.
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:47 PM It's somewhat ironic that Trump has called Castro a brutal dictator when it was the US who propped up the vicious and corrupt Batista regime for years before Castro eventually got rid of it. Castro failed in his promise to make Cuba democratic, but he achieved a lot for his people in spite of desperate and repeated attempts by the US to undermine him or even assassinate him, and in spite of that dismal embargo. I tend to get indigestion whenever I hear US politicians criticise anyone else at all for human rights abuses. That is hypocrisy of the highest order. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: The Sandman Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:47 PM I think he was great. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:50 PM Well I think he was a lot more good than bad, but it does behove us to acknowledge that he was less then perfect in many regards. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: robomatic Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:48 PM Reinaldo Arenas described his experiences of artistic and homophobic persecution in Cuba in "Before Night Falls" and described his personal perception as follows: "the difference between the communist and capitalist systems is that, although both give you a kick in the ass, in the communist system you have to applaud, while in the capitalist system you can scream. And I came here to scream" Castro can best be described as a predictable disappointment. He came to power lying about his objectives and pursued a despotic rule where his opinion of right and wrong was made to suffice for an entire people. He was ably lampooned by Woody Allen in Bananas as the revolutionary leader who went bonkers with success who commands: "In addition to that, all citizens will be required to change their underwear every half-hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check." Leaders like Castro, Mugabe, DaEsh, and the Kim ils suck all the air out of the room, institute rules that are not only cruel but BORING, and make average humans sorry to be alive and rob them of hope for their children. Perdition to 'em all! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:47 AM There's no reason to be so confident that "he came to power lying about his objectives". It seems more likely that faced with reality of persistant hostility from the US his expectations of what was possible and what was necessary changed. During World War Two, Britain too was a dictatorship in all kinds of ways. But after six years it was over. With Cuba the condition of wartime persisted for generations, and is only starting to relax now (and very much under threat of that reversing now). As Jim points out the attitudes towards homosexuality in the 1960s were very much in line with those in the US and Britain and other countries, including the threat of imprisonment. Castro's attitude was totally characteristic of the time. Indeed if Cuba had been out of line and as accepting as present society is, that have been used as another reason to condemn the regime - and would not have gone down well with Cuba's desperateely needed lifeline, the USSR. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM Strange that the people here mentioning the "embargo" and offering it up as the catch all excuse for the ills of Cuba fail to mention the fact that from 1959 until 1991 Cuba was massively supported and kept afloat by the U.S.S.R. The only relaxation of repression came once the U.S.S.R. collapsed and Cuba internationally had to be seen as cleaning it's act up. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:49 AM "Cuba was massively supported and kept afloat by the U.S.S.R." It was not - Russia bought some of their sugar - not enough to make a significant difference. The aftermath of the Cuban missile Crisis precluded any more involvement than that. Cuba needed to evolve from a basically poor rural economy into a self-supporting country with industries of its own. The small amount of income it got from Russia only managed it to keep its head above water - just. I really don't see too many eulogies for Castro here Bozo - rather, it is an attempt to discuss the achievements and failures of Cuba as a nation and could do without the mindless, right-wing snide. Castro had his faults, but whatever they were, it was the world-wide embargo of its goods that kept it poverty-stricken. That Cold War embargo still exists log after the fall of world Communism - the melting of it began with Obama but don't stand a chance in the mind-freezing fascism of Trump's America. I'd like to agree with Ake's 'Aids' comments, but I'm afraid the morality clampdown came before the 'Gay Plague' hysteria. The clampdown came to break with Batista's allowing the development of a society which freely used sex as a tourist attraction for rich Americans. The partial clampdown on the church had one eye on the use made of religion to suppress and enslave peoples throughout Latin and South America - as the ghost of Archbishop Romero and the raped and murdered Salvadorian nuns, if you want to check. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Hrothgar Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:54 AM I don't want to get into the argument, but I would like to tell this story. In around late 1959 or early 1960 (very soon after Castro came to power, anyway) the Reader's Digest, which can be fairly be described as leaning to the right, had a laudatory article about the heroic revolutionaries who had toppled the brutal dictator, Batista. ... then they found out they were Commies ... I laughed until the tears ran down my leg. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:09 AM Down's Syndrome is not "a disease". It's a way of being human. I know that, Kevin, and you know that and we also know that homosexuality is not a disease but there are those on here and elsewhere that believe that can be cured or treated as well. Usually by restricting their rights - Hence my reference to restricting the rights of people with Downs in my post. Apologies I that I did not make that clear in my 26 Nov 16 - 04:08 PM. I thought that by referring to doing the same to people with brown eyes or black skin made it obvious I was being ridiculous. I would offer my condolences to all who loved him but, although I have no strong views on his regime, it was wrong to imprison people because of their sexuality. When people think that is a good thing I begin to doubt humanity. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:11 AM Steve, it was not me who brought up the subject of homosexuality in this thread. Jim the confinement of homosexuals in Cuba WAS a direct response to the HIV/AIDS epidemic.....The excellent Cuban Health system had worked out that the main "at risk" sector of the population was male homosexuals, something that other health agencies cannot yet bring themselves to admit. In the interim, many lives have been lost and the epidemic continues unabated. The actions taken in Cuba were not persecution, but common sense health policy. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Thompson Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:20 AM Channel 4 made a documentary, 638 Ways to Kill Castro about the many attempts by the US to assassinate this foreign head of state. I suppose if America and Europe want to show how dastardly Castro was, from a more level playing field, the best way would be to institute the same policies of free universal healthcare, equality of income and free education to degree level. In Cuba, the policy was that even if no one had a lot, everyone had a fair share of whatever there was. Sometimes - as in the 1990s when Cuba was impoverished by the US embargo and the loss of help from Russia - this meant terrible things; adults and children were going blind from malnutrition. Cuba's response was to investigate and develop a State response - distribution of B vitamins - which saved thousands. I can't understand why America continues this embargo. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:58 AM "Jim the confinement of homosexuals in Cuba WAS a direct response to the HIV/AIDS epidemic" PLease do not be as incredibly stupid as your hatred of homosexuality appears to have made you The moral clampdown in Cuba began at the beginning of the 1960s Aids did not surface as an issue until 1982 Unless Cuba set up a secret crystal ball factory to predict two decades into the future - how the **** could that clampdown be related in any way to Aids You forgot your pill again this morning, didn't you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Nov 16 - 06:55 AM Just been informed of this by Sandra Kerr THE POWER of COMMUNITY Sandra and other members of the Critics Group were guests of the Cuban Goverment as performers in 1969 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: akenaton Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:25 AM There has always been a moral argument in every country on homosexuality, in part of the UK and most of the world homosexual "marriage" is still illegal. I am talking about the medical response to HIV/AIDS in Cuba regardless of political ideology. This from the New York Times, hardly a supporter of Fidel. HAVANA — Yudelsy García O'Connor, the first baby known to have been born with H.I.V. in Cuba, is not merely still alive. She is vibrant, funny and, at age 25, recently divorced but hoping to remarry and have children. Her father died of AIDS when she was 10, her mother when she was 23. She was near death herself in her youth. "I'm not afraid of death," she said. "I know it could knock on my door. It comes for everyone. But I take my medicine." Ms. García is alive thanks partly to lucky genes, and partly to the intensity with which Cuba has attacked its AIDS epidemic. Whatever debate may linger about the government's harsh early tactics — until 1993, everyone who tested positive for H.I.V. was forced into quarantine — there is no question that they succeeded. Strangly, the NYT's article makes no mention of male homosexuals, but states that "the Cuban regime concentrates on "high risk groups like prostitutes". Actually, the rates among "sex workers" are only a fraction of those amongst male homosexuals. Related Coverage H.I.V./AIDS: Voices From Cuba MAY 7, 2012 Cuba's AIDS Sanitariums: Fortresses Against a Viral Foe MAY 7, 2012 Recent Comments Gail Reed May 9, 2012 For an indepth look at HIV/AIDS in Cuba see the special issue of peer-reviewed journal MEDICC Review at http://www.medicc... Eyes Open May 9, 2012 I've been to Cuba twice. It is a remarkable place. This cogent article demonstrates yet another way in which it is remarkable. I wonder if... Tufik Habib May 9, 2012 As most things in life, things are not fully good or bad. Definitely, it seems this is the way to manage an epidemic. Indeed, it looks... See All Comments |
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