BS: The best type of government

Subject: BS: The best sort of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:13 AM

In many threads on Mudcat we finish up discussing the merits/demerits of various governments and the people in them.

Do we think that democracy is the best form of government? If so then why is it criticised so much: is it the people in power, the system or the electorate?

Is there , or has there ever been, a better system?

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:16 AM

Enlightened monarchy has a lot of merits. And right now, I'd like to have Barack Obama as King.
Electorates don't necessarily elect very good leaders.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:29 AM

there is a theory that says we get the government we deserve, me, I'm not sure.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:41 AM

I'm marginally in favour of an enlightened, benign monarchy, especially seeing what's just happened in the US Presidential Election. However, the beauty of a republic is that you can periodically get rid of the President and replace him/her with someone (hopefully) better - we're stuck with the queen until she abdicates or, more likely, dies, and then we have no say in who gets the job after her.

I'm also very much in favour of a democratically-elected parliament. What I'm not in favour of is a press which is controlled by a very small handful of powerful owners, all pushing an extremist agenda, encouraging xenophobia and hatred, and heavily influencing the votes of the easily-misled and feeble-minded elements of the electorate - viz. the 2015 GE and the recent EU referendum.

And I'd take Obama for King any time.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:10 AM

Surely though, the trouble with an enlightened monarchy lies in ensuring that successive monarchs are enlightened. Or are we talking about an elected dictatorship here?
I think the biggest problem is achieving an enlightened electorate. Very difficult given that the sources of information avaiable to most are controlled by people who are far from independent.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:50 AM

I think the most important word in my phrase "Enlightened, benign monarchy'" is 'benign' - no political power, no possibility of parliament being 'over-ruled' by the monarch. Basically, a figurehead for state and other occasions.

I've recently been moving towards the idea of a republic with an elected president but, having seen Trump, Cameron, and now The-Beast-Of-Grantham-Reincarnate, May, come to power, I'm not so sure.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM

Unless you have uniformity of the people themselves, or such oppression they cannot express an opinion, you will have groups who protest they are threatened and badly treated however enlightened the leadership. How benign the leadership is reflects how they treat those groups but a benign leader does not guarantee all the rest of the population is equally benign
It could be argued that most of the antisegregation, anti-racist and similar laws arise precisely because the government is more enlightened and benign than sections of the population.

For all its many and grevious faults, I think the American version of democracy is about the best we have. The separation of powers is key, which we don't have here in the UK. A Trump with a senate against him would be far more limited in power than any UK prime minister. A Trump with a matching senate is more or less the same as the UK arrangement. This is not to say the US system could not be improved: the electoral college is mad, the president still has too many executive powers and so on, the whole is far too susceptible to lobbyists and big business overriding "the people" but overall it is pretty good.

Where I think both the UK and the US systems fail the people at a fundamental level is the dominance of party. If we could come up with a system which prevents a small panel of people determining what the party stands for and all candidates then just defending that line we would have a stronger system.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:23 AM

So would proportional representation go some way towards correcting the situation in the UK and the US?

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:33 AM

Didn't someone once say democracy was the worst system apart from all the others?

There is a piece in one of Terry Pratchett's books, possibly Lords and Ladies, where the king of Lancre tries to introduce a democracy and the people don't like the idea. The argument goes along the lines of 'why should we decide how the country is run when that is your job?'. In response to the kings point about a bad king making bad decisions they retort that such a king does not last long and the prospect of loosing ones head is an excellent incentive to make sure the people do like your decisions.

I am sure there are downsides to it but it sounds a good plan to me :-)

Cheers

DtG
(Willing to be the benign dictator of anywhere if you like)

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:34 AM

I was in favour of the AV which was a previous referendum. While not a promotional system it went some way in the right direction. It would, for example have allowed a conservative pro-EU and a conservative anti-EU to stand in each constituency and the people would decide which they wished without splitting the Conservative vote. Then we could have sorted the countries position on Europe without the last decades or so internal fighting in the tory party or needing another referendum at all.

But of course we were told it was too complicated...

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:42 AM

I'd happily go for a system of PR. Unfortunately, it's very unlikely to ever happen, because the two major parties are terrified that they wouldn't be able to run the show 'all their own way' for the next five years after a GE.

It's 'too complicated' because they don't want it, and they don't want it because they're scared it would take away their grip on government.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 06:14 AM

Whatever type of government one has, it should be entirely free of corruption and nepotism. In developing countries, that's almost impossible to achieve. Lack of self-interest and pure altruism are rare qualities even among politicians in so-called developed countries.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 06:56 AM

Well I don't want any kind of monarch involved in having any say whatsoever in running anything other than their own flock of corgis. Not ceremonial, not nothing. The ones we have the misfortune to endure in this country are as thick as pigshit, as they make painfully obvious every time they open their mouths in public, unworthy of being consulted about anything more important than which brand of baked beans their armies of servants should go out and buy for them.

I think that there's no real alternative to full democracy. The trouble with democracy in the US and the UK, as has been made patently clear in the last few months, is that we have shamefully uneducated electorates. Political education in schools is a bit like sex ediucation, seen as a bête noire and attracting hawkish reactionary forces which oversee things to ensure that only right-wing, faux-moralistic establishment values are perpetuated. As with religious instruction, it isn't education at all. Of course, right-wing traditions such as school uniform and the unquestioning herding of kids off to services and other ceremonies help to cement the establishment hegemony. There is next to no countering of this in any school I've been in. The upshot of all this is an ignorant electorate that is easily manipulated. Prejudices are easy to appeal to, and unelected forces such as right-wing media, big business and lobby groups are cheerfully embraced by politicians as long as they sing from their populist hymnsheet. That's where people get their political "education" from, just as kids get their sex "education" from porn websites. Vacuums in knowledge will always attract unscrupulous exploiters. Proper democracy demands voters who actually know what they're voting about. This happens to a lamentably inadequate degree. The danger is that the powers that be, especially on the right, find this a rather attractive situation. So it looks like we're getting democracy because we can go into a booth and make a mark. But outside the booth we have Farage, Johnson, the Sun and the Daily Mail to ensure that educated democracy is no more real than Franco going to communion every day was a real Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:02 AM

So are we saying that, in the whole of man's history, there has never been a form of government that we can generally accept as being the best and which can be made to work?

I don't mean one that's perfect just one that the overwhelming majority would endorse.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:08 AM

While we're talking about developing countries and nepotism and corruption politics, are we talking about the kind of place where a son follows a father as president, or where an ex-president's spouse is almost elected president, or where a president's cousin is elected president? Just clarifying terms here. How many members of US congress and Senate are related to other politicians or ex-politicians?

Proportional representation won't have any effect on the two parties; here in Ireland we've had proportional representation from the start, and Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have dominated politics throughout. What it does do is sometimes necessitate a coalition, not that that makes a blind bit of difference.

The best type of government for me would be the type that keeps things as equal as possible in a society, so that people benefit from economies of scale by throwing money into the pot and gaining a good, free-to-use health service and education service, as in the Scandinavian countries and France.

The worst kind is so business-oriented that it celebrates its arms dealers selling guns and bombs and warplanes to all kinds of scrotes, and deliberately acts to destabilise other, democratically elected governments.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:54 AM

I agree with that. At least in a democracy we're able to whinge about the imperfections of the system more or less freely (you do have to watch your back occasionally so as not to attract the hate-mongers these days). The conversation should be about how we can improve what we've got. We laud free speech, a free press, unregulated institutions such as banks and the "blind workings of the free market," but we forget how these things, too often riddled and shackled by self-interest, work against democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: The trouble with democracy in the US and the UK, as has been made patently clear in the last few months, is that we have shamefully uneducated electorates.

They keep electing the wrong damned people!

Perhaps the solution is to make government like jury service or National Service. Every one has to do a few weeks or months of government in their life, except that any one who wants to do it is disqualified.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:03 AM

That is too cynical by far. I'm not equating electing the wrong people with lack of political education. I'm arguing for a politically-aware electorate who would be less susceptible to Daily Mail populism and other forms of bias and who would be far better able to hold politicians to account in an articulate manner. Do tell us what you see wrong with that.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:20 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Do tell us what you see wrong with that.

You appear to be making a connection between people you disagree with and poor education, like if only they were better educated they would not disagree. Apologies if I have got this wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:50 AM

You have got that wrong, one hundred percent. There's no need to read between any lines. I know lots of well-educated people who disagree with me about all kinds of things, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:51 AM

And, for all I know, you may well be one of them. TBC.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM

By the way, if you want a sample of how politically uneducated some of the electorate can be, just listen to some of the vox pop on news bulletins. Great example from the US this morning on the Beeb: "It don't matter who the president is, cos Jesus Christ is the KING!"

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:20 AM

Well, I think a government which adopted the teachings of Jesus would be no bad thing.

Unfortunately Jesus never encountered global capitalism or unbridled financial aspiration.

The government which is available to us, is determined by the economic system we employ......or should I say which employs/exploits us.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:36 PM

Well we have plenty of governments the world over who affect to adopt the teachings of great religious leaders of the past, and the usual result is crusades, imperialism justified by cod-morality and terrorist states which claim to possess God-inspired righteousness. So I don't think Jesus would be agreeing with you there. I'd prefer governments who know that they are the servants of the ordinary people and who try not to get beyond themselves. I like the idea of a government that takes the best advice possible about how they should efficiently run schools, hospitals, transport, trade, housing, energy and water supply, how to look after the environment and how to keep the country secure and safe (which does not include sabre-rattling, selling weapons to foreigners and invading other countries thousands of miles away). What I definitely don't want is any Tory or royal or archbishop preaching at me about morality.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:56 PM

Jesus Christ as far as I am aware did not promote terrorism, in fact he specifically forbad it.
Christianity is a faith based on pacifism.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM

Pacifism is unacceptable to me and I'd never vote in anyone who leaned towards it. I'm a Christian, but one has to defend one's country against aggression and invasion. I don't support warmongering for its own sake, or starting wars in other places which are not one's business (ahem...) but having a strong defence force and being prepared to mobilise it is essential.

I also would be unhappy with a government which was based on fundamentalist-type religious principles. UK is a multi-cultural and multi-religious land, and any ruling powers need to include all of us in their policies. I actually think fiercely fundamentalist religions are dangerous, hot-headed, provocative and divisive.

I do like Steve's idea of better political education for all, provided it was fairly presented and balanced. It truly is appalling to read some of the ignorant and silly comments posted on social media by people entitled to vote.

Sorry to keep harping on about Africa, but I've seen very ignorant and vulnerable voters swayed by promises coming from the lips of entirely corrupt and self-interested politicians. (Lauren Gbagbo for example) which is why my model for a perfect government is an altruistic, benevolent and non-corrupt one. (Probably not achievable!)

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:19 PM

Yes, but nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. Or the Crusades. Or despotic popes. Or the suppression of science. Or rabid Christian antisemitism. Or child abuse. Or the Magdalene Laundries. Or the baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM

Spot on, Senoufou. 👍🏼👏🏼

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:26 PM

We were not discussing "baby eating Bishops", but whether it is stupid to agree with the teachings of Jesus.

I think people who are taken in by "liberal" ideology must be pretty dim, but I am sure that they are not all so.
There are many "clever" people who see it as a weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:28 PM

Well I didn't use the word "stupid." So fire away.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:35 PM

The thing is, Jesus advocated 'turning the other cheek' which is mad (sorry) when applied to international affairs. One can live one's private life according to Christian principles, but one can't use a religion as a basis for government.

It seems to me that USA, a particularly Christian-based country (maybe I'm wrong) appears to regard all Muslims as despicable and any ideas which contradict the Bible as unacceptable and untrue, even when science has confirmed them. I'd feel very ill-at-ease under such a regime.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:36 PM

Try reading Matthew 10:34 and following, and imagine it was being said by someone who is a threat to society (as indeed it was seen). Pick whoever you like in modern terms: a pro ISIS imam, perhaps. It may help you see how people like ISIS or the Inquisition or whoever can "follow the teachings of (whoever)" and come up with quite a different interpretation to you.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:47 PM

Well half the problem is the openness of religious teaching to "interpretation."

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:01 PM

We were not discussing "baby eating Bishops", but whether it is stupid to agree with the teachings of Jesus.

No, Ache, we're discussing the many and various perversions of the teachings of Jesus alive and well and guiding fundagelicals and others to the detriment of society in the present day.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM

I think we have to be careful this doesn't become a religious thread. It really started asking about dictatorship, monarchy and democracy in its many guises. More than enough to cover there without falling back onto old familiar ground.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:32 PM

I am pretty sure that any administration that based its government on religious teachings would be doomed to failure. There will always be people of other faiths and people of no faith that would become outcasts in any such society. Because, as has been pointed out, most religious teachings are prone to a wide variety of interpretations there will always be those who would use it as weapon against others.

Moving away from religions , as DMcG suggests, is a wise thing. The only fair form of government must be based in equality for all. Not just your own particular clan or cult.

In my opinion.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:33 PM

Thank you DMcG.
I started this because I've always taken it for granted that democracy was the system that everyone aspired to.

However that is obviously a very naive assumption for a number of reasons.

Firstly democracy frequently doesn't work very well, especially when the electorate isn't well informed and hasn't got easy access to sufficient unbiased information to change that situation.

Secondly, there are many countries around the world that are not democratic which seem to be get on very well. Have they got a better system or is there a latent desire for change amongst the population which cannot find expression?

I don't have any answers but was interested in people's views as to which sytem they thought was best.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:10 PM

Well, Mr Putin appears to lead the most domestically popular govt in the world......his personal popularity rating is 84%

Many here see his governance as undemocratic but it expresses the will of the majority of the Russian people.

In Western "Democratic" countries the media wields tremendous power, perhaps Don's theory of "hypnotism" at work?.....is this democratic in political terms?

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:11 PM

One thing I think is easily overlooked is that almost all of us spend a lot of our life's in dictatorships of a kind: almost every business is closer in structure to a dictatorship than a democracy. And while they don't have a full legal system they do have rules that are analogous, with systems of punishment and in the extreme expulsion.

A few companies are set up with much more democratic systems, but they are very much in the minority.

This is one of the reasons on another thread I pointed out that what "a good deal" for Brexit would be is entirely a matter of how you define good. Businesses essentially have a single goal, and for that dictatorships seem to be the most effective system. On the other hand, if you think their are other goals - welfare of citizens for example, even at the cost of an economy that grows less,for example - then you need a system that incorporates many more voices.

There is also the question of direct democracy versus representative democracy. Technically direct democracy is possible for the first time since we lived in societies of a few dozen. I think it would be a very unwise direction to go because that needs an aware electorate even more than a representative democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 08:26 PM

"Well, I think a government which adopted the teachings of Jesus would be no bad thing."
Jay-sus Christ - just what the world needs - yet another bunch of mystics thrown into the maelstrom of religious wars that the world is experiencing - I don't think.
Hasn't the name of Christianity been used enough to cause death, destruction and unhappiness on this planet - from sending our children to war right down to the right to sexually abuse them?
The teachings of Christ as read are totally impractical as well as being contradictory.
The humanitarian ideals of Christ are as remote from what is practiced and espoused by so-called Christians today, besides, any attempt to put them into practice would guarantee the would-be practitioner a one-way ticket to Guantanamo.
As things stand, the only way to make religion work in today's world is for it become totally a spiritual guide voluntarily accepted and with no access whatever to institutions of government or the establishment in general.
In my opinion, the best type of goverment to aim for as a short-term measure is one which acts equally in the interests of all the people - in fact, a total reversal of what is now happening.
Ideally, that Government should be elected by a people armed with all the facts and without the electoral hype and dishonesty we are all subjected to.
It should be subject to recall whenever it attempts to renege from its promised programme and should include elected representatives from every section of society, all with an equal say in how the country should be run.
That'll never happen in my time, and any attempts to put such a system into place are bound to be met by extreme resistance from our present "betters" - so there I can envisage more than a few bodies swinging from more than a few lamp-posts if such a suggestion is ever mooted.
I don't believe in violent revolution as a policy for change, but I know there are plenty who believe in violent reaction to change for the better.
Dream on Jim!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 11:27 AM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:06 PM

Backwoodsman - 27 Nov 16 - 02:41 AM

"I'm marginally in favour of an enlightened, benign monarchy, especially seeing what's just happened in the US Presidential Election. However, the beauty of a republic is that you can periodically get rid of the President and replace him/her with someone (hopefully) better - we're stuck with the queen until she abdicates or, more likely, dies, and then we have no say in who gets the job after her."

Rather nonsensical Backwoodsman and you are perfectly aware that you are comparing apples to oranges. In the UK our system of Government is a Parliamentary Democracy - our Head of State is a Constitutional Monarch with no executive power. The USA on the other hand elects an executive Head of State whose administration does have very real power. As far as succession goes in a Republic with an elected President you cannot guarantee the quality or ability or competence of who actually wins the election (We've just had a classic example of this). With a Constitutional Monarchy whoever succeeds to the throne has undergone an apprenticeship that has lasted their entire adult life in preparation for the role.

Others have posted putting great emphasis on equality which for the people who make up the nation a very difficult thing to define.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:09 PM

Democratic cooperation or cooperative democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:01 PM

I'd favor a philosopher king.... but I know too much about too many Philosophers. *I* can be trusted, though! Vote for me! ☺

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 03:28 PM

Don't you understand the meaning of 'benign' Terry? My comparison was precisely intended to highlight the differences between a monarchy and an executive head of state.

You're either trying, as usual, to start a fight, or you lack comprehension skills. I believe it's the former. In which case, you're in for a disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 01:48 AM

Well Backwoodsman it your Head of State has no power it does not matter a jot if he/she is benign or not, as they direct and affect nothing as a Constitutional Monarch. Also the electorate have no idea at all as to whether your elected executive Head of State once in office will be benign or not, and once in office you have no guarantee he/she will play by the rules - lots of examples of limited term Presidents who changed those rules once they got into office.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: banjoman
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:45 AM

perhaps the best form of government is No Government

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:52 AM

No government, or more accurately self government, is not a new idea and comes under the general term anarchy. Unfortunately when you introduce a number of people that do not or will not conform to the ideals of the rest of the population the society cannot cope and falls apart. Hence the term anarchy has become synonymous with chaos.

It cam work in small self governed societies where the penalty for not working for the benefit of all is expulsion.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stu
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:10 AM

"as they direct and affect nothing as a Constitutional Monarch"

Well T, that's not actually true as I suspect you know full well.

How the Royals have vetoed bills

Hardly democratic, eh what?

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:29 AM

Thanks for the link Stu - It doesn't quite say what you obviously think it does.