BS: The best type of government

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 04:32 AM

Should read : "and those (about 70who have paid them 61 per cent end of the third billing cycle, 55 per cent at the end of the second cycle and 44 per cent at the end of the first billing cycle, will be recompensed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 04:26 AM

Seems an improvement on the present farce Gnu
Here in Ireland we have a similar set up – ends up with a much fairer representation and can be a total game changer.
Last election was a close-run one, which took weeks to sort out and produce a balanced government.
Several of the measures pushed through by previous Government were put on hold - water taxes, which had been greeted with huge nation protests (totally unprecedented in Ireland) are being debated a year later (so far they have only been watered down (pun intended) and it is hopeful that they have been abandoned altogether and those (about 70who have paid them will be recompensed – people-power
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:26 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G72TKMgI60o&feature=youtu.be

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:04 PM

"Try actually reading the Nkrumah link that you yourself provided."
Read it - there is no evidence that Nkruma did anything but replaced British Colonial justice with one that suits a situation where there were at least seven attempts on Nkrumah's life.
Read deeperand yo will find the changes he made were basically to decentralise the old system and remove the right for a judge to rele a case inadmissible.
That system was upheld by those who took over following the C.I.A. planned coup and approved of by Britain - Ghana was considered in safe hands by then
Thirty six African countries had a one-party system - all approved by Britain and considered the best way forward for former colonies.
Nkruma never, not was accused of taking personal advantage of his rule and the changes he brought about where praised throughout the world - under his rule, Ghana prospered and the people benefited enormously - until after the coup, when all civil rights were dismantled,
We are still getting your interpretation and no evidence of the despotism you are implying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 01:10 PM

"all you give are a list of pronouncements, none of which appear in anything I can find or have ever read on Nkruma." - Jim Carroll

Try actually reading the Nkrumah link that you yourself provided. That is where I got the information I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 12:55 PM

Prove it - all you give are a list of pronouncements, none of which appear in anything I can find or have ever read on Nkruma.
You want your pronouncements accepted - back them up with evidence or they will remain unaccepted.
I knw that your description was a current description at the time - largely circulated by the people who helped depose him, but the facts, as I have come to believe them don't hold water.
There were no reports of any kind of repression in Ghana after independence until after the coup.
It took the C.I.A. backed move to 'freedom' to bring that.
"A series of alternating military and civilian governments from 1966 to 1981 ended with the ascension to power of Flight Lieutenant Jerry John Rawlings of the Provisional National Defense Council (PNDC) in 1981.[50] These changes resulted in the suspension of the Constitution of Ghana in 1981, and the banning of political parties in Ghana.[51] The economy suffered a severe decline soon after, Kwame Nkrumah negotiated a structural adjustment plan changing many old economic policies, and economic growth soon recovered from the mid–2000s.[51] A new Constitution of Ghana restoring multi-party system politics was promulgated in Ghanaian presidential election, 1992; Rawlings was elected as president of Ghana then, and again in Ghanaian general election, 1996.[52]"
Nkruma was removed because of his association with the Communist Bloc - as far as I know, there were no other reasons given.
You may know different, but as I said, if you do, produce you evidence instead of a list of propaganda based claims
GHANA
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 11:58 AM

"Do you actually have proof to the contrary?" - Jim Carroll

No Jim I don't have any contrary proof that is why I said what I did - Kwame Nkrumah was a perfect example of an elected executive Head of State who once in office did not play by the rules. He was a limited term President who changed those rules once they got into office by:

- Subverting the judiciary
- Banning all other political parties
- Rigging elections
- Ignoring limited terms by making himself "President for Life"

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 08:16 AM

Thanks for that Iains
Interesting indeed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 07:50 AM

Interesting that after so many years the controversy surrounding the death of dag-hammarskjold should resurface.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/03/un-to-pursue-further-inquiry-into-death-of-dag-hammarskjold

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 07:09 AM

"Kwame Nkrumah was a perfect example of this:"
Do you actually have proof to the contrary?
The U.N. denied this happened and Dag Hammarskjold paid with is life for defending him.
The link here 06 Dec 16 - 10:38 AM suggests a different Nkruma.
This is how Ralph Bunche American political scientist, academic, and diplomat who received the 1950 Nobel Peace Prize for his late 1940s mediation in Israel, summed him up on behalf of the Harlem Lawyers Association in 1958.
"We salute you, Kwame Nkrumah, not only because you are Prime Minister of Ghana, although this is cause enough. We salute you because you are a true and living representation of our hopes and ideals, of the determination we have to be accepted fully as equal beings, of the pride we have held and nurtured in our African origin, of the freedom of which we know we are capable, of the freedom in which we believe, of the dignity imperative to our stature as men."
Your version seems to be a straight lift from the image projected by the C.I.A. and the others who indisputably organised the coup to overthrow him.
The same type of people probably engineered the death of Partice Lumumba.
but I'm always open to alternative information should it be forthcoming.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 06:10 AM

In 1960s Africa - of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:42 AM

Thanks B.W.
Never come across it before
Will struggle with the suggestion that a machine is more capable of convincing people than is human contact.
I think I get Stu's point - I don't expect to convert people to my way of thinking, nor do I believe they will convert me to theirs.
I look on these arguments and discussions as an exchange of ideas in which we gather as many views as possible and weigh them up against our own - and make our final decision on the basis of everything available.
Are machines more capable of enabling that - maybe - but we all need to accept that as an objective.
What I am finding helpful is that arguments like these have enabled me to bring together all the bits and pieces I (think I) have learned throughout my life and relate them.
I have never associated what I believed happened in Africa in 1060s Africa with what was happening in 1650s/60s America and Cuba - I am beginning to now - you live and learn.
Sorry for the digression
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:34 AM

A post of mine from earlier in this thread that was part of an exchange with Backwoodsman:

Teribus - 29 Nov 16 - 01:48 AM

Well Backwoodsman if your Head of State has no power it does not matter a jot if he/she is benign or not, as they direct and affect nothing as a Constitutional Monarch. Also the electorate have no idea at all as to whether your elected executive Head of State once in office will be benign or not, and once in office you have no guarantee he/she will play by the rules - lots of examples of limited term Presidents who changed those rules once they got into office.

Kwame Nkrumah was a perfect example of this:

- Subverted the judiciary
- Banned all other political parties
- Rigged elections
- Ignored limited terms and made himself "President for Life"

It only took him 7 years to do this.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 02:41 AM

Turing Test

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 01:25 PM

"Turin test."
No - indulge me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 01:16 PM

I got it.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 12:46 PM

I got it. Most of the people here who do computers will understand the Turin test.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 12:19 PM

Sorry - above my head Stu
Wasn't Alan Turing the war hero who was chemically castrated for being gay?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stu
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:42 AM

'Jim Carroll'

Turing test results: Failed.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:38 AM

"The kind that lets a fake embassy run for ten years?"
Nigeria's, Kwame Nkrumah, led Ghana to Independence and became her first Prime Minister - unfortunately, he was a socialist.
Under his leadership, Ghana became one of the most enlightened African States - he opposed tribalism and introduced an unrivaled Education system
He promoted pan-African culture, calling for international libraries and cooperative efforts to study history and culture. He decried the norms of white supremacy and Eurocentrism imposed by British textbooks and cultural institutions.   
Under his leadership The Gold Coast became among the wealthiest and most socially advanced areas in Africa, with schools, railways, hospitals, social security and an advanced economy.
In 2000, he was voted Africa's man of the millennium by listeners to the BBC World Service, being described by the BBC as a "Hero of Independence", and an "International symbol of freedom as the leader of the first black African country to shake off the chains of colonial rule."[117]
His leadership was deposed by the combined efforts of Britain and the C.I.A.
"According to intelligence documents released by the American Office of the Historian, "Nkrumah was doing more to undermine [U.S. government] interests than any other black African."[118]"
In February 1966, while Nkrumah was on a state visit to North Vietnam and China, his government was overthrown in a military coup led by Emmanuel Kwasi Kotoka and the National Liberation Council. President Nkrumah himself alluded to possible American complicity in the coup in his 1969 memoir Dark Days in Ghana, though he may have based this conclusion on falsified documents shown to him by the KGB.[112]
In 1978 John Stockwell, former Chief of the CIA's Angola Task Force, wrote that agents at the CIA's Accra station "maintained intimate contact with the plotters as a coup was hatched." Afterward, "inside CIA headquarters the Accra station was given full, if unofficial credit for the eventual coup.... None of this was adequately reflected in the agency's written records."[113]
KWAME NKRUMAH
Around the same time, Congolese independence leader and the first democratically elected leader of the Congo, Patrice Lumumba, began to bring about similar reforms in the former Belgian Congo - he died in a plane mysterious plane crash.
Is supporter in the United Nations, Secretary-General, Dag Hammarskjöld suffered a similar fate
"During a thirty-five-month period from January 1961 to November 1963 the politics and foreign relations of southern Africa were drastically altered by the deaths of Patrice Lumumba, Dag Hammarskjöld, and John F. Kennedy. Aside from Kwame Nkrumah, these three men were at the time arguably the most polarizing figures in Africa, adored by African nationalists and despised by the racist white settlers who dominated the politics of the southern half of the continent. Each of these three men, from separate continents yet all champions for the idea of self-determination in Africa, died violent deaths, the details of which remain shrouded in mystery to this day."
That crash has been put down to sabotge too.
Democracy eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 05:11 PM

The kind that lets a fake embassy run for ten years?

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:00 AM

It seems to me that the best type of government is one that is going to change society rather than tinker with it and make it even worse than it is.
All social societies evolve, run their course and are replaced - hopefully by something better.
This apple has waiting to fall off this tree for far too long.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:04 PM

To quote Will Rogers: "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:10 PM

I said up above that an enlightened monarchy would be best. However, there is a serious shortage of enlightened monarch candidates these days, so I'm a Social Democrat.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:22 PM

...But I didn't register, until I glanced back, that you had implied that the same term would fit both Dan and Trump; no way, Jose ! You might be able to put both of them in nice looking sacks, but the Dan sack wouldn't be full of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:13 PM

Ake, your confusion about the term is understandable; "Dude" meant pretty much what you said for many years, often with some contempt because it implied more dressed up, citified, and pretentious than manly. Now is more apt to denote a nice, mellow guy one would want to hang out with.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:51 PM

What is a "dude"......I thought a sort of flash male .....a showman...extrovert.......dandy ......like Dan really?

Mr Trump seems all of these?

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:26 AM

" ingenuous"
Disingenuous, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:24 AM

It seems to be automatically assumed that the only tpe of Government possible is that we have already - "our little rant" seems to be a cop-out to avoid the fact that the present form of democracy is no longer serving the needs of the vast majority of the British people, and putting down complaints on the failures of the system to selfish moaning.
Britain no longer has an industrial base, the economy is growingly unstable, the gap between the wealthy and the poor is rapidly widening and economic crises are now becoming boringly regular.
Higher education is now virtually out of reach of the average working family - from aoccasional visits to 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire' it seems one of the most common reasons given to win something is "to pay of my or my children's school fees".
Working people have no say in their lives, no security of tenure or employment - zero contracts have now replaced periods of notice.
It seems to be more than a little ingenuous to describe wishing to do something about this as "a rant"
It's an old Conservative ploy to describe a demand for a share in the National cake as "The politics of envy" - same meaning different words.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:00 AM

Of course when we don't get the govt we personally want we complain that the electorate is uninformed and with the inference that only those highly educated so that they agree with us (!) are worthy to cast their vote. Now this May or may not be true , but I suspect it is self serving . So we are left with , as already quoted, that democracy may not be the best form of government but it's better than all the rest . Still we still have our little rant !

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:02 AM

He's old, certainly, but not in any way my idea of a 'Dude', Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:36 AM

They've already elected an old dude! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:50 AM

Oldude for President

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:23 PM

Rapparee for emperor

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Gda Music
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:27 PM

This Caribbean political style belongs above the line but in this case does seem to fit in answering the specific thread question posed. Sparrow`s brilliant "spoof" manifesto does demonstrate just why an electorate should be wary....politicians and promises?, Cheups!

Mighty Sparrow - *If it`s that you want*

TYSOTT SP 1004 (1976)    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-cGP1sOA_M

For the coming era, I decide I go be Prime Minister,
Oh Lord, I going to launch my campaign
My memorandum I must hasten to explain
A revolution, constitution is my plan for this land
If I win election it`s [unclear] I tell you
Anything you want dat you go get
If you want fete it`s endless fete
I will legalise marijuana X and whey whey
I will make every other day a public holiday
And open the treasury to all those who scrunt
But tell me in front if it`s that you want

You want to change the system, all the problems
I`m going to help you solve them
Oh Lord I am prepared to serve you
I`ll do anything that you want me to do
Well my intention is to please man
And woman if I can and to end all the frustration
You believe me if it`s Mas you want Mas you go get
Free food and rum free cigarette
I`ll bring down the age of consent to 7 years
And make Jean in town Minister of Hoes Affairs
Who working go hard don`t mind all who like to scrunt
So tell me in front if it`s that you want

If you don't like to pay tax and if you don't like police
Well you could relax
Oh Lord and if you love bacchanal
No police can`t touch you and make it legal
Satisfaction for the people is my motto
So you know I will make you comfortable believe me
If it`s work you want it`s work till death
If it`s land you want well better yet
I am going to go metric and divide the land
Keep most for myself and to hell with any man
Have an all year season for those who like to hunt
J`ouvert for a month if its that you want

GJ

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:26 PM

Gilbert and Sullivan again, Iolanthe

When all night long a chap remains
On sentry-go, to chase monotony
He exercises of his brains,
That is, assuming that he's got any.
Though never nurtured in the lap
Of luxury, yet I admonish you,
I am an intellectual chap,
And think of things that would astonish you.
I often think it's comical – Fal, lal, la!
How Nature always does contrive – Fal, lal, la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!
Fal, lal, la!
        
Fisher Morgan as Private Willis, 1950s Click on picture to enlarge

When in that House M.P.'s divide,
If they've a brain and cerebellum, too,
They've got to leave that brain outside,
And vote just as their leaders tell 'em to.
But then the prospect of a lot
Of dull M. P.'s in close proximity,
All thinking for themselves, is what
No man can face with equanimity.
Then let's rejoice with loud Fal la – Fal la la!
That Nature always does contrive – Fal lal la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!
Fal lal la!

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:39 AM

You can say that again!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:19 AM

(Oh, I've had shots fired across my bow... ☺... but no serious injuries)

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:30 AM

That is not true. If you get shot down here either by the usual suspects or the usual convicts, it's either because you've advocated badly or because you're being got at by someone who doesn't matter who has a bee in his bonnet. That's how it is here and it ill-behoves anyone who rolls in the mud to moan about it. McGrath never gets shot down. DMcG, with whom I often disagree, never gets shot down. Senoufou never gets shot down. Kampervan and Bill D never get shot down. As those yanks say, go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:33 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Reveal it then!

Stanron wrote: It is possible to like one idea from one side and another idea from the other but on boards like this if you advocate one idea from one side it is almost inevitable that you will be accused of supporting all the rest of the ideas of that side.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:18 PM

Reveal it then!

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:17 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: The trouble with you right-wingers, Stanron

Interesting and, perhaps, revealing.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:07 PM

And I never thought I'd hear myself saying it, but well done LibDems in Richmond. That racist twat Goldsmith needed his arse kicking! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:00 PM

The trouble with you right-wingers, Stanron, is that you hate the label you've stuck on yourselves. Call me a leftie and I'm proud of that. I don't even mind being called hard left. Carry on! Socialist is good. Call me a commie if you like, though I've never actually been a member, and the communists got right up our noses at times when I was a leftie activist in the 70s. But you and your ilk are far right. Are you ok with that? You do fit the bill quite well...

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:18 PM

Wow. I'd never heard of Utopia Limited before. It's there in Wikipedia if you are interested (and please feel free to make a donation to the site to keep it free from adverts).

Of course the Anglo Saxons elected their kings. It was the nasty Normans who wanted to keep it in the family. And, of course again,it was only the 'upper crust' of the Anglo Saxons who got to vote. It wasn't democracy as we know it.

Talking politics is made more tricky because 'Labels' such as Right or Left, Tory or Labour and Republican or Democrat come with groups of associated, interlocking ideas.

It is possible to like one idea from one side and another idea from the other but on boards like this if you advocate one idea from one side it is almost inevitable that you will be accused of supporting all the rest of the ideas of that side.

Is this deliberate misunderstanding, knee jerk reaction or lack of intellectual flexibility.

Sticking to strict two party ideological scripts is not going to allow the development of new ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:33 PM

Gilbert and Sullivan took a page out of Plato's philosopher king idea and came up with Utopia, Limited I've never known it to be performed but The D'Oyly Carte folks put out a recording of the highlights and since it was the latter part of the 19th Century they had improved the philosopher king idea by having the leader of Utopia implanted with dynamite in his head so if he didn't mind his Ps and Qs he would be hoisted:


"A pound of dynamite explodes in his auriculars
It's not a pleasant sight, we'll spare you the particulars"

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:31 PM

All the world asks of you is that you elect a relatively safe president

Yeah, well, good luck with that; See "APOLOGY" thread.....

The U.S. has raised up a generation or two of morons, Thank you Republicraps for the last 35 years of funding cuts to education.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:17 PM

Very true. Your best president was shat on from on high, and we got the Reagan nightmare. All the world asks of you is that you elect a relatively safe president and we don't care how average he or she is. Obama fitted that bill very well.

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:15 PM

JFK has never gone down well with me.

Agreed - but then you've got Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and II, and the current POS elect -----

Its a matter of perspective, Steve...

Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:47 PM

Hmm. JFK has never gone down well with me. Never will.